Jack's mother and the shirts -- by hsenohio

[TOoP/Bruce]

Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by hsenohio     (Wed Jan 18 2006 06:42:50 )   
   
Not sure if this has been already posted. I was just discussing with friends and we concluded that Jack's Mother planned to give the shirts to Ennis. She had a knowledge of Jack and Ennis. And she said kept the room just like it was hen Jack was little. One can assume that while cleaning or tiding up, she saw the shirts and left the there because she knew what they meant. So when Ennis came, this was her cue to let Ennis have a tangible part of Jack to keep and remember him.

Maybe it is Wyoming hospitality or something, but why would she invite Ennis (at this point a stranger who they only know by reference) to go up to Jack's room? Furthermore, as I mentioned elsewhere on this board, her eyes spoke a million words. The whole thing was delicately and superbly crafted when they - Ennis and Jack's mother - put the shirts in the brown bag, almost with as much ceremony as military men fold a U.S. flag at a funeral.

She would have indeed preferred the ashes to be scattered on Brokeback, you can also see that yearning in her eyes. But the a..hole of a father, the domineering figure in this household, would not let it happen.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by jscheib     (Wed Jan 18 2006 06:49:51 )   
   
Basically I agree with you. First time I saw the film I didn't pick up on the looks she gives Ennis, but definitely she knew the shirts were there, had some idea at least what they had meant to her son, wanted Ennis to find them.

As with so many scenes in this incredible film, there is a lot going on here. By the time I saw it for the sixth time, when I noticed how Ennis is struggling not to cry, the thought came to me--this woman is the mother of son; she's also offering Ennis a place to go and have a good cry so he doesn't have to lose his dignity by breaking down in front of that cranky old bastard her husband/Jack's father.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by strawbs04     (Wed Apr 12 2006 15:02:49 )   
   
I don't know if she knew about the shirt's, but I'm sure she at least had her suspitions about Ennis whom Jack had been talking about for years. The shirt was hidden away from all the other clothes, and I think that Jack wanted to keep it that way for fear of people wondering about the blood and why the shirts weren't washed. Unless Jack's mother was psychic, she probably didn't know about the shirts beforehand. She may not have even known the shirts existed because they were hidden, but might have figured the shirts had some meaning to Ennis other than just being Jack's shirts after Ennis had brought them down with him.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by anjaandersendk     (Wed Apr 12 2006 15:17:25 )   
   
of course she knew about the shirts...she has cleaned his room many times, i find it weird that she wouldn't see the shirts...i just wonder how she knew that one of the shirts were ennis'? maybe because she knew jack loved him...

it would be a sweet life

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by Doug-Nasty     (Sun Jul 23 2006 12:26:57 )   

UPDATED Sun Jul 23 2006 12:28:01
To jscheib: To be fair to that "cranky old bastard", he could have come across that way because it was his way of dealing with his grief at losing his son, especially if he knew the circumstances surrounding Jack's death. *SPOILER* ie: "the tire-iron" if this was the case instead of an "accident". Jack's dad was as Annie Proulx said, was one of those "who had the need to be the stud-duck in the pond."
That's my take on this anyway.


"If this 'thing' grabs a hold of us in the wrong place, and the wrong time. We're dead."

Doug O'Connor

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by CathMary     (Wed Jan 18 2006 07:10:20 )   

I think Jack's mother knew what Ennis meant to Jack, but I'm not convinced about the shirts. I don't think she realized they were there (after all, they weren't just in the closet w/ the rest of the clothes, they were hidden away).

And, if the mother HAD seen them, like as not she'd probably have washed them, and separated them, maybe even wondering just what her son was doing stuffing an old blood-stained shirt inside his other one.

But I DO agree that the mother would've let Ennis take the ashes and scatter them on Brokeback.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by Wooski     (Wed Jan 18 2006 07:21:48 )   
   

I think Jack's mother was well aware of the shirts. Interesting thet were unwashed too - still with the blood on them.

I think she invited Ennis up to see if he found them. And if he did - would they mean what she thought they meant. The answer to that was yes - which was why when Ennis walks back into the kitchen with them she just handed him a bag - her suspicions confirmed.

My friend (who is a mum) reckons she was happy that someone loved her baby so much to make the effort to come out and that it was a love returned. That thought really touched me.

These are the questions I want Diana and Larry to answer on their DVD commentary!!!!!

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by lo-eveline     (Wed Jan 18 2006 07:41:28 )   

I think the film version made it more explicit that the mother might have known the existent of the shirts - you can tell from her look when Ennis took the shirts down - as if she knew what they were already. The book didn't make it that explicit.

there are just millions of details in this film that unbelievably fascinating.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by Jack_Me      (Wed Jan 18 2006 07:54:15 )   
   
This is so true. Remember, Ennis comes down stairs carrying a bundled up bit of blue, the mother at that moment, NODS, to him and immediately get the bag. Had she not known they were there, she would not know what he was carrying, and she would have been more curious and questioning versus, noding acknowledgement that Ennis was doing the right thing by taking them.

And yes, it's true, the mother knew who Ennis was. Don't forget that twenty years had passed and we know Jack immediately went home to be with his parents to spend that first Winter after Brokeback. And we know from later on that Jack continued to go home and visit with his parents. And we know they knew of Ennis because the father sneers out the name: Ennis Del Mar....Jack was gonna come back.....etc. It's possible that Jack might have even told his parents that he loved Ennis, or at least his mother, but possibly his father too, since the father's so unfriendly posturing and comments obviously were filled with contempt and distaste. Even if Jack did not tell his father, his father must have known and that embittered him.

And you all are right that the mother was touched by Ennis's coming to see them based on his friendship with her son. This was a tragedy, and in that context, it would be natural for her to offer this friend of her son the opportunity to visit what is essentially Jack's gravesite, i.e., the site where his life is memorialized just by it's existence. And the mother saying that she always kept his room just as it was, and she thought he appreciated that, meant that for Jack, the room was a special place and she knew that, so she offered to share that with someone who felt as she did the loss of a loved one.

Jack in Maine

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by bing-57     (Wed Jan 18 2006 09:39:01 )   
   
> Had she not known they were there, she would not know what he was carrying, and she would have been more curious and questioning

Not at all. She knew who Ennis was and she would have let him have anything he wanted from Jack's room. It really didn't matter what it was that he was carrying. She probably recognized the bundle as one of Jack's shirts, but it could have been one of the clean ones in the front of the closet.

It just didn't matter. She would have happily given him the whole room.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by muscla_1     (Wed Jan 18 2006 18:38:15 )   
   
UPDATED Wed Jan 18 2006 18:38:45
My friend (who is a mum) reckons she was happy that someone loved her baby so much to make the effort to come out and that it was a love returned. That thought really touched me.
That has always been my take on this scene. She loved Ennis for loving Jack, and she's glad that Jack has SOMEONE his his life that cared about him...she sure didn't.

"Jack, I swear..."

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by enzino-1     (Wed Mar 29 2006 14:52:13 )   
   
The only one that could answer is Annie Proulx. The shirts are hers — and the scene too. But she will never tell.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by iamlaron     (Wed Sep 13 2006 22:34:04 )   

quote by - Wooski on Wed Jan 18 2006 07:21:48

I think Jack's mother was well aware of the shirts. Interesting thet were unwashed too - still with the blood on them.

I think she invited Ennis up to see if he found them. And if he did - would they mean what she thought they meant. The answer to that was yes - which was why when Ennis walks back into the kitchen with them she just handed him a bag - her suspicions confirmed.

My friend (who is a mum) reckons she was happy that someone loved her baby so much to make the effort to come out and that it was a love returned. That thought really touched me.


I just found this thread ... I really like this point of view wooski. I tend to agree.

In addition, she most likely knew that Jack didn't have a great many friends so the one friend he often mentioned (probably ever since he got back that summer from Brokeback Mountain) already had a place in her heart - so much so that she had a strong suspicion that the shirts were significant by the time she found them.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by bing-57     (Wed Jan 18 2006 09:35:26 )   
   
> she'd probably have washed them

Yes, she would have washed them if she had found them. One of them was Jack's shirt and the other, who knows? Jack was only 19 when he stashed them there. If mom had found them, she would have washed them and scrubbed out those nasty stains and hung them proudly back in the closet. Moms just do that kind of thing.

The mom would not seen much sentimental value in some bloody shirts while Jack was alive, young, and perfectly healthy.

Therefore, the mom did not know about them.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by jshane2002      (Wed Apr 12 2006 16:56:13 )   
   
Maybe Jack kept them somewhere else in his room that signified they were special to him. We don't know all the details here - not that important anyway.

Also Jack could have been much more open with his mom than with his dad. He may have even had conversations about Ennis with her. Considering how much his dad knew and how his dad knew just the right words to hurt Ennis with.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by Lindsey-Menzies     (Thu Apr 13 2006 11:35:10 )   
   
I am seriously going to have to stop reading this message board - it's just not normal to be sitting in front of your computer screen with tears in your eyes four or five times a day....

My thoughts (having only seen the movie once)? I think Jack's mother definitely knew about the shirts and she told Ennis to go up to Jack's room because she knew he would find them. She would probably have known that one of the shirts didn't belong to Jack because he pretty much still lived at home before that summer on Brokeback and she would have washed his clothes for him (I know my mum would have known if some piece of clothing didn't belong to me when I was 19!) When Ennis shows up at the house she realises that the other shirt is almost certainly his - his finding them, and the look in his eyes when he returns to the kitchen, confirm this for her.

I'd be pretty certain that she knew that Ennis was far more than just a friend to Jack too - and I think she conveys this to Ennis in the way she looks at him. To me, what her eyes say is "I know you loved my boy, and never doubt that he loved you too"

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by nattaluca     (Wed Jun 14 2006 05:23:51 )   
   
I totally agree.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by panam231     (Wed Jun 14 2006 05:40:17 )   
   
God now im gonna cry, there goes my day....

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by don8946     (Wed Jun 14 2006 10:57:48 )   
   
Somehow, I believe Jack discussed his feelings for Ennis with his mother and told her about the shirts. (Or showed them to her). I believe this because of the knowing way she smiled and nodded at Ennis when he came down with the shirts, immediately getting a paper bag to put them in.

Time heals all wounds until you run out of it.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by twistedude      (Wed Jan 18 2006 10:10:14 )   

She both nods and smiles when Ennis comes across the kitchjen with the shirts, neatly folded, in his hands. She reaches for a bag, and--I like the poster who said, puts the shirts, with Ennis, in the bag as carefully as a folded flag at a soldier's memorial. I think she knew about the shirts and had seen them, every since Jack brought them home right after Brokeback. When she syas "You come and see us again," Ennis whispers an affirmative, and he turns in the doorway to whisper again, thanks for this, m'am.


Others may see it differently--but I don't see how!


"You come back and see us again"--Jack's mother

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by jscheib     (Wed Jan 18 2006 10:24:39 )   
   
That is a beautiful and touching analogy--to a flag at a soldier's funeral.

No offense intended, but the way it's staged in the film, I think it's implausible that the mother didn't know the shirts were there. After nearly 20 years, my mother would have known!

I don't have my copy of the story with me here at work, but I seem to recall Annie Proulx doesn't tell us how Ennis got those shirts out of there. From what I can recall of her description of the scene, it sounded like the shirts were more hidden than they are in the film. And for all we are told, Ennis might have snuck 'em out under his coat.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by twistedude      (Wed Jan 18 2006 10:43:49 )   
   
Yes, I think the fleshing-out of Jack's mother--she is both there and inviting in the story, too, was one of the screenwriters' happier additions. As you say, in the story, it seems we are supposed to believe he snuck 'em out under his jacket...

"You come back and see us again"--Jack's mother

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by Jack_Me      (Wed Jan 18 2006 10:27:27 )   

rvognar01, I agree (as I already posted) except for one not that important point. Ennis does NOT comed down with the "shirts neatly folded" in his hands, but with a pretty tightly wrapped/rolled bundle which he his holding off to his side in a bit of an attempt to pass by the father without the father seeing the bundle. But whether the shirts were neatly folded or tightly bundled, the mother and he DEFINITELY were performing a sacred ritual when they bagged them. Yes, like a honor guard presenting a flag to the survivor.

As for whether Mom would have washed the bloodied shirts years ago if she had known of their existence: NO definitely not, BECAUSE she herself was aware of mementos and their importance when she says to Ennis that she's always kept the room just as it was when he was a boy. So, when Jack comes home at age 19/20 full of his first Brokeback Summer with Ennis and with his saved memento of that time (the shirts), he very likely told his Mom about the whole experience, even if not about the sexual part. Like.....he met a great guy, they had wonderful time, they got into a scuffle and he took the shirts as a memento of the time, and please don't ever wash them. Perfectly acceptable, and Mom would have respected his wishes and understood perfectly. THEN 20 years later when Ennis shows up, she KNOWS that whatever the form of relationship they had together, it both lasted 20 years and it was VERY important to her son when he came home after that first Summer. So YES she knew the shirts were there and did not wash them, and when Ennis brings them down, she knew exactly what it was he was carrying and what the symbolism of it meant to Ennis.

Jack in Maine

Jack in Main--what seems 'carefully folded' to me   
  by twistedude      (Wed Jan 18 2006 11:03:50 )   
   
might be a messy bundle to you (I'm a slob). I was conflating Ennis's careful folding of his daughter's sweater in his trailer after she's forgotten it with his treatment (unseen) of the shirts.

I also doubt that Jack told his mother about the "wonderful time" he had with Jack, sex or no sex (DEFINITELY not the sex!), although, obviously, he DID tell his nasty old man that Ennis del Mar was going to come up to the place and help him, Jack, put it to rights, stay there. I think, with this information, together with Ennis's appearance there, she--put everything together. But somerhow, I sorta got the feeling, as soon as she sees himn, that she knows who he is!

"You come back and see us again"--Jack's mother

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by JLScheib     (Wed Jan 18 2006 15:37:12 )   
   
Jack,

As with all of your posts that I've read so far, your post, above, on Jack's mother and the shirts is very perceptive and very well expressed. Hope you'll see this, hope you'll stay with this board and keep posting. We need folks like you!

"You come see us again."

Jeff

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: OT Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by gggim25     (Sun Jan 22 2006 21:44:33 )   

"The whole thing was delicately and superbly crafted when they - Ennis and Jack's mother - put the shirts in the brown bag, almost with as much ceremony as military men fold a U.S. flag at a funeral."

Thanks for making me tear up again. Looks like I might need to see this one a third time.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by EnnisLovesJack     (Fri Feb 24 2006 10:14:33 )   
   
Hi Jack in Maine,

I just saw your post here (I quote you below, so you'll know what the hell I'm talking about, he he). Found it through the Remarkable Threads collection dear joyce created as a labor of love for all of us, bless her.

I had to respond and just tell you how much I love your post. Especially Jack's mom understanding the importance of mementos (perhaps Jack inherited this from her), and the sacred ritual/honor guard flag correlation. Very illuminating. Thank you!

One question for you: in the film, I am curious why Jack's dad doesn't say anything. He clearly sees Ennis carrying the shirts as he walks by, even though Ennis is holding them off to his side. It seems to me Ennis even looks over at the dad with a protective expression on his face, like "you will not take these away from me." But Jack's dad had no problem speaking his mind. I wonder why he did not say something, at least question if not outright object tot he shirts being taken. Any thoughts?

Cheers,
Keren aka EnnisLovesJack

rvognar01, I agree (as I already posted) except for one not that important point. Ennis does NOT comed down with the "shirts neatly folded" in his hands, but with a pretty tightly wrapped/rolled bundle which he his holding off to his side in a bit of an attempt to pass by the father without the father seeing the bundle. But whether the shirts were neatly folded or tightly bundled, the mother and he DEFINITELY were performing a sacred ritual when they bagged them. Yes, like a honor guard presenting a flag to the survivor.

As for whether Mom would have washed the bloodied shirts years ago if she had known of their existence: NO definitely not, BECAUSE she herself was aware of mementos and their importance when she says to Ennis that she's always kept the room just as it was when he was a boy. So, when Jack comes home at age 19/20 full of his first Brokeback Summer with Ennis and with his saved memento of that time (the shirts), he very likely told his Mom about the whole experience, even if not about the sexual part. Like.....he met a great guy, they had wonderful time, they got into a scuffle and he took the shirts as a memento of the time, and please don't ever wash them. Perfectly acceptable, and Mom would have respected his wishes and understood perfectly. THEN 20 years later when Ennis shows up, she KNOWS that whatever the form of relationship they had together, it both lasted 20 years and it was VERY important to her son when he came home after that first Summer. So YES she knew the shirts were there and did not wash them, and when Ennis brings them down, she knew exactly what it was he was carrying and what the symbolism of it meant to Ennis.

Jack in Maine


"Redlined it all the way, couldn't get here fast enough."

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by wparkercra     (Wed Jan 18 2006 15:43:13 )   

I agree with you totally and the flag at a funeral reference is dead on. Also, when Ennis comes down with the shirts bundled, Ma Twist seems to be standing there nervously waiting to see if he would find them and she gives a a slight nod of approval. Everything unspoken and yet speaking volumes. She knew and she wanted Ennis to have the shirts.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by JLScheib     (Wed Jan 18 2006 18:26:48 )   
   
And, you know, wparkercra, the first time I saw the movie I completely missed all the looks and glances between Ennis and Jack's mother--so totally blown away by the whole experience of BBM that I missed the little touches like that interplay. Just another example of how this movie repays repeated viewing.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by carmenjonze-1      (Wed Jan 18 2006 18:31:07 )   
   
oh yeah. she definitely knew.

not only that, she was empathetic, and supportive.

these scum homophobes around here wouldn't know anything about that, because they are cut off from their own humanity.

______________________
You're just a lost ball in the high weeds.
--Ethel Waters, 1935

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by west_mont     (Wed Jan 18 2006 19:01:04 )   
   
I think the mother really knew what Ennis meant to Jack. On my third viewing (I missed that on the first two, I was too sad to pay attention to details), I noticed that when Jack's father was talking about another fellow Jack was seeing, Ennis's appears to be very hurt and lost, and try to fight back his tears. At that moment, Jack's mother put her hand on Ennis' shoulder, and asks him if he would like to see Jack's room. The way she talked to Ennis, and the way Ennis responded to her, I can really feel some kind of instant love and connection between them. I think she knew Ennis was hurt from knowing "anothe fellow", that is why she made the offer right at that moment knowing Ennis will find the shirts. Ennis went up to the room and found the shirts. He realised at that moment how much Jack loved him. That "another fellow" Jack's father mentioned does not matter anymore. Jack was his, always. I really think Jack's mother played a crucial part here. Her love for Jack and Ennis, her understanding and recognition of their realtionship, and her proper intervention really saved Ennis from total devastation. Ennis was then able to hold on to their love. As lonely as he will be for the rest of his life, he knows deep in his heart how much he and Jack love each other.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by Shuggy     (Wed Jan 18 2006 19:09:38 )   

It's not fair! Just reading your analyses of the scene makes me go all teary, and I haven't even seen the film yet! FEBRUARY 23! You guys just be here for me then, OK? (Actually, don't worry, my man will.... He's a Brokie too.)


"If you can't stand it, you gotta fix it."

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by west_mont     (Thu Jan 19 2006 10:14:10 )   
   
I am surprised many people who have not seen the movie came to the board and read all the details and analyses of the movie. I never do that. I always thought it will ruin my enjoyment of the first encounter. That is why I force myself not to read any review or discussions, not even the trailer about BBM before going to the movie. I did not know the story (OK, I knew it is about two men falling in love with each other, but that is about it. I did pay attention to the awards and praises it was getting, but not into the details why it has gotten all the praises). I did not even know what Jake or Heath look like, never heard of them before. I think that is part of the reason why the movie hit me so hard because I knew nothing going into the theatre.
But judging from all those repeated viewings (Myself included, tonight will be my fourth), I guess for this movie, it is okay to know the details beforehand. After all, this movie really has to be experienced as a whole package.
Dan

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by JLScheib     (Thu Jan 19 2006 19:27:57 )   
   
<<I guess for this movie, it is okay to know the details beforehand.>>

west mont:

For what it's worth, I read the story when it was first published in the New Yorker (don't I wish I'd saved the issue; a copy recently sold on eBay for $255), and before I saw the movie I deliberately went out and bought a copy of the story and read it again, so I pretty much new what to expect when I saw the movie, at least in a general way. I missed an awful lot that first viewing because I was so blown away by how faithful the movie was to the story.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by Shuggy     (Fri Jan 20 2006 20:30:11 )   
   
UPDATED Fri Jan 20 2006 20:31:33
It's not fair! Just reading your analyses of the scene makes me go all teary, and I haven't even seen the film yet! FEBRUARY 23! You guys just be here for me then, OK? (Actually, don't worry, my man will.... He's a Brokie too.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am surprised many people who have not seen the movie came to the board and read all the details and analyses of the movie. I never do that. I always thought it will ruin my enjoyment of the first encounter. That is why I force myself not to read any review or discussions, not even the trailer about BBM before going to the movie.

I've never gone this deeply into a movie I haven't seen before, and maybe it will spoil my enjoyment, that's a risk I'm prepared to take. I'm counting on the fact that in two hours there will be heaps of details I'll pick up that nobody's happened to mention, or that I have no idea what they look like (eg I have very little idea how the rodeo clown sequence goes, or the Mexican prositute sequence.)

Bear in mind that many people here are going to see it multiple times.

Also, you go to the film of a Shakespeare play or a Jane Austin novel knowing the whole story and maybe a lot of the lines and what the cast look like, but nobody ever suggests that ruins your enjoyment. (Hell, you go to "The Importance of Being Ernest" and then discuss how an actress delivered two words*!) And I don't make those comparisons lightly.


*(Lady Bracknell: "A handbag?")
"If you can't stand it, you gotta fix it."

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by DesertRatAZ     (Sat Jan 21 2006 17:37:37 )   
   
I'm kind of surprised at how this movie got a grip on me before I ever saw it. I read the original story in advance and knew many of the plot points, and when I went in to see it, I was able to appreciate the craftsmanship that went into it. Of course, I was so busy appreciating the craft, that I thought I was (dang it!) going to get out of the theater unscathed. But no--as the final fadeout turned into the credits, I had to choke back the sobs that were trying to get out. So knowing what was going to happen didn't spoil it for me.

It sure looked to me like Jack's mother knew, in that strange way perceptive parents have, exactly what was going on, understood, and accepted it. A most remarkable scene.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by koonz     (Sun Jan 22 2006 21:31:17 )   
   
A mom here. And yes Jack's mom was aware of the shirts and that they had meaning to her son. That mother had gone over that room with a fine tooth comb, making it a sanctuary to her now deceased son. She wanted Ennis to have the shirts and that is why she sent him up to the room, she knew he would discover them. She nods to Ennis, acknowledging their shared secret.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by west_mont     (Sun Jan 22 2006 20:17:28 )   
   
Shuggy:
I hope you are not upset by my post. I did say that judging from the multiple viewings, it is probably okay to know the details beforehand.

I am a person who routinely do multiple viewings of films I like. So obviously I agree that you can still enjoy a movie when you already know the story, especially the kind of movies that does not force feed you the emotions, the ones that require you to bring your experience to fill in the blanks.
However, the first experience is almost sacred to me. Sitting alone in the darkness not knowing what is going to happen is something special and unique, and different from all the subsquent viewings. Personally, that is how I prefer. But to each of his own. I also goes to theatre plays a lot. The same thing applies for me there as well. I would look at the reviews just to find out if the critics like it or not. Never read any actual review until after I see the production.

I am now planning on my 5th viewing, my fourth was just a few days ago (Thursday). I would say that is borderline addiction.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by b_hynds     (Fri Jan 20 2006 11:54:55 )   

Oh west mount why do you want me to cry?

"I did once" - BBM

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by silkncense     (Mon Mar 20 2006 09:45:10 )   

West mont - Still catching up on some threads. Love your take on the mother actually saving Ennis from the devastating question of "another fellow." I agree completely. ANOTHER very powerful scene - one of so many.

"It's alright; 's alright; 's alright." Jack Twist

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by deiland     (Thu Jan 19 2006 21:39:16 )   
   
I have not read the story. I saw the movie for the first time tonight and was deeply moved.

My comment regarding the tightly rolled shirts:

Am I the only one who imagines that Jack's mother could have not only known about the shirts, but also placed Jack's ashes upstairs in his room for Ennis to find unbeknownst to Jack's father? Jack's ashes could have been concealed within the tightly rolled shirts as he left (one explanation for them being so tightly rolled) and Jack's mother deliberatly helped Ennis sneak them past Jack's father. I would like to think that Ennis did indeed get to scatter Jack's ashes on Brokeback Mountain after all.

So sue me...I'm a romantic.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by wparkercra     (Thu Jan 19 2006 21:45:10 )   

Hmmm, that's an interesting thought. However, I tend to think that B*stard Dad actually did keep the ashes (as in the story). The Dad kept Jack's body (ashes), but Ennis took his soul (the shirts/a.k.a. love). That's just my take on it for what it's worth.

"You Bet"

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by cwhonse     (Fri Jan 20 2006 11:45:49 )   

UPDATED Fri Jan 20 2006 11:52:54
No, Deiland, you are not the only one who imagines Jack's mother giving the ashes to Ennis :

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/thread/34146723?d=34146723#34146723

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by NewHorizons37     (Sat Jan 21 2006 17:49:50 )   
   
The idea that the ashes were sneaked out of the house by Jack's mother and Ennis is untrue to the story on so many levels. For one thing, it is untrue to their characters. Ennis throughout the movie has shown that he is not an ends-justifies-the-means kind of person. I believe the same of Jack's mother. She would not sneak around her husband like that, not just because there would be hell to pay when he found out, but because she has too much integrity to do that.

Jack's ashes could have been concealed within the tightly rolled shirts as he left

I can tell you that when I had my 8-lb cat cremated, it would have been hard to conceal her ashes and the container in those shirts. Forget about the ashes of a 6-foot man, even half the ashes.

It's just not the way the story is supposed to go. It stinks and is unfair, but Ennis accepts it and we are supposed to, too.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by nonon99_99     (Fri Jan 20 2006 20:15:42 )   
   
This scene is incredible. I remember after Mrs Twist speaks 'you come back and see us again', there is a low sigh from the cinema audiences, mixed with surprise and weeping. This sentence is a secret acceptance of Jack and Ennis' love, the only one they received.

I wonder if anyone know a very similar scene from Wedding Banquet, an early Lee Ang film, also a gay story: the day when Simon, Weitong's partner, is having a birthday, the Father secretly gives Simon a present - a bunch of cash, which in Chinese tradition is the present from Farther or Mother in law. And the Father, in clumsy English, tell Simon: "Weitong is my son, you are my son also."

Both scenes are so moving. From the similarities lies between this two films, I see Lee Ang actually has been brooding such stories, scenes for more than a decade. And finally in Brokeback Mountain it reaches such a summit.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by DesertRatAZ     (Sat Jan 21 2006 17:43:17 )   

Wow! I'll have to see Wedding Banquet again!

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by reannawrites     (Fri Mar 17 2006 19:49:29 )   
   
Bump...yes her eyes spoke a million words.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by bella3-1     (Fri Mar 17 2006 20:06:26 )   
   
I also find it beautiful the way at the start of the film, we see Ennis jump out of the truck carrying all he owns in the world in a simple brown paper bag...it's all he's got and its not much. Finally at the end of the film, he leaves Jack's house carrying again, a simple brown paper bag - this time however, it carries everything that has ever meant anything to him in the world. the symbol of his love for Jack - those shirts...

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by stitchbuffymoulinfan     (Fri Mar 17 2006 20:10:01 )   
   
I think she knew Ennis was hurt from knowing "anothe fellow", that is why she made the offer right at that moment knowing Ennis will find the shirts. Ennis went up to the room and found the shirts. He realised at that moment how much Jack loved him. That "another fellow" Jack's father mentioned does not matter anymore. Jack was his, always. I really think Jack's mother played a crucial part here. Her love for Jack and Ennis, her understanding and recognition of their realtionship, and her proper intervention really saved Ennis from total devastation. Ennis was then able to hold on to their love. As lonely as he will be for the rest of his life, he knows deep in his heart how much he and Jack love each other.


Oh my god, west_mont, this made me cry. Literally. This passage is so sad...

"He realised at that moment how much Jack loved him." is when I just felt crushed reading your post.

I think Ennis was completely devastated over Jack's death and, unfortunately, will be for the rest of his life. Think of what he has, or shall I say doesn't have in the ending. He lives all by himself in a tiny trailer, going from useless job to another, living in poverty with only two daughters he hardly sees as a shimmer of hope in his life, and of course, the memory of his deceased boyfriend with whom he shared a very deep and genuine connection. The book version gives us a potent idea of what might happen to Ennis in his future, thankfully.

I think Jack's Mom knew about the shirts but discovered them after he died and she was too heartbroken by his death to move them. How Ennis and Jack's Mom seem to have an understated understanding of each other's roles in Jack's life is so beautiful. I suppose it was in the kitchen, at some point, when Jack's Mom figured out just how much Jack and Ennis truly mean to each other.

www.jlodown.com
www.petitionspot.com/petitions/jlodown

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by bella3-1     (Fri Mar 17 2006 20:28:46 )   
   
Excellent excellent point..."the mother's intervention saved him from total devastation". that's one of the things i love so much about this film, is the way every scene, every moment, gesture, look, everything that is said or unsaid, even right down to the colours in this film are all symbolic and so potent with meaning. There is not a single moment in this film that patronises the audience, or tries to shove the message or meaning down our throat. it is so sublte yet so powerful... The way Ennis comes down the stairs, holding the shirts wrapped up - he looks straight at the mother and nods, as if to say "i found them..i've got them...he's with me now". Their silent communication is just beautiful.


the little carved horserider on the sideboard in Jack's room   
  by Hajo_Co     (Mon Mar 20 2006 09:14:50 )   
   
Thank you for hinting out how a brown paper-bag showed up with Ennis on his very first appearance and towards the end. After a second viewing -- I was relieved that I managed to sit through it so much more self-controlled, yet when the lights turned up I saw all those devastated souls of the other viewers, oh dear; it still stuns me that humans can be collectively moved to such sorrow and empathy by a 'mere' work of art; never experienced this to such extremes during burials -- and reading many posts here on IMDb I am still anaware of many details. Amazing yet credible that the filmmakers should have contemplated and set those details intentionally.

BTW, doesn't something similar and more important happen with the tiny horse figure Ennis is shown carving from a branch during one of his first stays alone at base camp, recumbent in the tent and peering out at a thunderstorm?

At Jack's parents' house, a little carved horse, now with a cowboy riding it, stands on the sideboard in Jack's room. Could easily be (meant to be) the one made by Ennis from twenty years ago on BBM.
   
Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by amandazehnder     (Thu Mar 23 2006 19:19:21 )   
   
awesome thread

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by majikstl     (Wed Mar 29 2006 13:15:52 )   
   
It is sweetly touching how this scene has been discussed here, but I think many are romanticizing it too much.

I don't think Mrs. Twist knew the true nature of Jack and Ennis' relationship, though she might have accepted it if she did. But I don't think Jack would have discussed that part of his life with her beyond talking about what a great friend Ennis had become. She welcomed Ennis because he as probably not just Jack's best friend, but possibly his only real friend. Jack had moved away from the Twist farm 20 years earlier and I doubt anyone other than Ennis had come by to pay their respects. Apparently Mr. and Mrs. Twist weren't even invited to the funeral. They grieved alone, which is probably one of the reasons she was so moved by Ennis' visit.

As for the shirt, I don't see how she could understand their importance to Ennis. Rather, I suspect that when Ennis contacted them about coming to visit -- he would never drop by unexpectedly -- she probably offered to let him take something of Jack's as a momento. Certainly that is the normal thing to do in my family. The fact that Ennis would want something to remember Jack by is what Mrs. Twist found so touching.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by BannerHill     (Wed Mar 29 2006 13:32:28 )
   
I agree, majikstl.

I recently experienced a rural funeral. All sorts of unexpected things happen. People come by to pay their respects. In my case I just had to be open and deal with each situation as it unfolded; no set plan.

My take on the scene is that Jack's mother was guided by
her instincts. She instinctively knew that Ennis's visit was important. She instinctively invited him to view Jack's room. When she saw the shirt in his hand, she understood that it was significant.

I don't think anything was premeditated.




"Hey Ennis, do you know someone named 'Jack'?"

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by amandazehnder     (Wed Apr 5 2006 21:23:05 )   
   
Whether she was completely aware of all the implications of those shirts, I think it's pretty clear that she wanted Ennis to find them.

I think in many ways by guiding Ennis to those shirts she helped save him.

I can't imagine how Ennis would have coped if he didn't have the closure and reassurance that those shirts bring. They really are like Jack comforting Ennis for one last time.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by catglith     (Thu Apr 13 2006 14:04:51 )   

I think she knew the shirts were there, and had a good idea about what they signified. Jack had mentioned Ennis and his dream alot according to his father, which shows she must have been aware of the nature of their relationship. And consider the fact that she probably went up to Jack's room after every visit to clean it. She probably would have put two and two together when Jack left home after returning home from BBM for the first time - he would have mentioned Ennis for the first time then, and this would have been when the shirts first appeared and Mrs Twist woud have found them when she was cleaning Jack's room (hope that makes sense, lol).

"I think in many ways by guiding Ennis to those shirts she helped save him.

I can't imagine how Ennis would have coped if he didn't have the closure and reassurance that those shirts bring. They really are like Jack comforting Ennis for one last time."

I totally agree amandazehnder.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by northernlad      (Wed Apr 5 2006 21:33:10 )   
   
Yes, she definitely knew about the shirts. Think about it...she's a mother. There aren't too many things you can get past a mother. I remember when I lived at home, my mom had a way of knowing just what I had in my room. Mom's are like that. I didn't catch this idea when I saw the movie in the theater (twice), but I definitely see it all clearly now. She smiles when she sees he found the shirts and immediately moves to get the paper bag for him. She also knew that Ennis was very important to Jack. It's all there in those last few scenes.

And I need you more than want you and I want you for all time.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by amandazehnder     (Wed Apr 5 2006 21:52:05 )   

Yup, I think that she probably knew every inch of that spare little house backwards and forwards having been the housekeeper there essentially her whole life.

Her respect for what Jack and Ennis had just overwhelms me. What an awesome character.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by silvertron     (Wed Apr 5 2006 22:15:25 )   

UPDATED Wed Apr 5 2006 22:18:54
Did I see the same movie? How could Jack's mother possibly know that one of the shirts was Ennis'? How could she know that Ennis would show up there? How could she know that he'd find the shirts hidden in the corner of Jack's closet?

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by BreDigsTheJakeness     (Wed Apr 12 2006 15:22:01 )   
   
I think she knew how much Ennis meant to Jack and could probably tell how much Jack meantto Ennis, just by the little interaction she had with him then. I don't think that she necessarily intended for Ennis to have the shirts, but she probably understood right away why he wanted them. She had probably seen the shirts before, and didn't bother them because she figured there wasa reason Jack didn't wash them and had stashed them away.

Love, Bre <3 
"Give 'em hell."

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by christian-posch     (Thu Apr 13 2006 14:22:36 )   
   
Maybe she not only figured out the relationship between Ennis and her son by herself, maybe Jack told her that.
I'm sure she (I mean it seems to me) she always had an open ear for her son.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by MakingFishcakes     (Thu Apr 13 2006 20:09:44 )   

Jack's father...whhat an a_hole! If he doesn't want to give his own son what he wanted, then he might as well have been one of the ppl who killed him.


Re: Bump Only   
  by thedreamer-3     (Sun Apr 30 2006 04:38:14 )   
   
Here's another theory about the ashes. When Jack's mother says come back, maybe when his father was no longer around, she'd let Ennis take them.

Ennis at the end says "I Swear" could mean he'd scatter them on Brokeback.

Just a theory as the ending has so many possibilites.

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by revolution-hk     (Wed May 10 2006 23:29:34 )   
   
Ennis sure is not a stranger to the Twist family. Jack always talk about Ennis before their parents, saying he will bring him here someday.
And for the shirts, Jack's mother knew Jack brough the shirts back many years ago and keep them secret. Maybe one reason for Jack to visit his parents yearly is to vist the shirts, and his mother surely knew that.
Jack maybe more lucky than Ennis that he have his mother accepted him.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by PeterDecker     (Fri May 12 2006 16:05:08 )   
   
Jack's mother is my hero. She understood her son was in love with Ennis and accepted it. She was pretty direct about getting Ennis to go up to Jack's old room. She didn't bat an eyelash when he came down with the shirts. She is a strong woman.

You can see the shirts mean so very much to her by the way she holds them and pauses before putting them in the bag. But she wants Ennis to have them.

At the door when Ennis is leaving he turns to her and says. "Thank you for this". It was all premeditated. It was a great act of kindness and acceptance. Mrs. Twist is a true Christian in the best sense of the word.

Re: bump   
  by MartinPh     (Tue May 23 2006 04:33:13 )   

After Ennis, I find Jack's mother the most moving and sympathetic character in the film. I'm convinced she's the only one who knows about Jack and Ennis and does not disapprove. She's the only one who truly shares Ennis's grief.

Of course she must have found the shirts - how often she, a grieving mother, must have rummaged through that room... She must have known the special significance of the two shirts.

I love the way Ennis leaves the house, carrying the paper bag, and then turns back to her for a single private moment away from John Twist's bitter presence, and says "Thank you for this". There is such mutual understanding there, expressed in such simple gestures.

Ennis and the Twists   
  by toycoon      (Tue Jun 13 2006 14:47:49 )   
   
UPDATED Tue Jun 13 2006 21:53:23
I kinda interpreted the scene as Heath allowing Ennis to be less intimidated by John Twist's negative remarks and Ennis really not caring what ANYONE thought by this point.

Jack is dead and nothing will bring him back.

John Twist definitely knows that Brokeback Mountain= homosexuality and that Ennis was the object of Jack's obsession (until last summer when Jack considers bringing another fella to the ranch).

I think Ennis smiles when Pa reminisces about Jack because he is reminiscing, too. He quickly snaps out of the cozy dream when Pa mentions the other fella.

Remember, aside from Ennis, no one else in this world was as close to Jack as his parents. Who could Ennis possibly discuss anything about Jack with except for this folks?

Re: Ennis and the Twists   
  by doctordon     (Tue Jun 13 2006 21:03:38 )   
   
My view is different, though I agree that John Twist equated Brokeback Mountain with his son's homosexuality and that he divined long ago that Jack loved Ennis and not just spiritually. I grew up in semi-rural Illinois and people in my family (ordinary folks) were very sensitive indeed to any hint of homosexuality and would have clued in immediately about Jack and Ennis or later on Jack and the "new fella" who was going to leave his wife and join Jack on the Twist ranch.

I don't think, though, that Ennis was smiling in humorous recollection. I think it was a very pained smile to cover a lot of raw pain. I think that John Twist mercilessly insinuated a lot of judgment on Ennis and condemnation on his own son in that scene and enjoyed doing it, the judgmental bitter unloving old bastard that he was -- that we suspected before that he would be given that Jack said he could never please his father, that his father was good at rodeo but never taught Jack a thing and that he never supported Jack by showing up to watch him rope and ride either.

This scene to me is overwhelmingly emotional and also spiritual. As I wrote on another thread, when Ennis has absorbed the harshest cruelties from John Twist, and is almost in tears, that's when Jack's mother's hand comes from off screen and rests on Ennis's shoulder -- and lingers there, too -- in one of the most compassionate scenes in film history, including her very carefully worded (country folk politeness just like I recall from my childhood) invitation for Ennis to visit her dead son's room. She knew that Ennis and Jack were lovers. She validated their love ahnd validated them as who they were by her compassion for Ennis (and as others have said she was the true Christian in the film because of this). She saw Ennis with the shirts and when he was too choked up to speak and only could gesture to her she nodded, got the sack and put the shirts in the sack fully aware of how important this was to Ennis. And when John Twist tries to overturn all this with one last hateful barb, she trumps him with her invitation to Ennis to come back to visit. Of course he will never be able to do so (what, and feel this pain again? Never!) but her invitation is the final word and it's the quiet triumph of compassionate love over hatred and fear.

In the final scene in the trailer, when Ennis asks Alma, Jr. if Curt loves her and she says 'yes', Ennis can't speak or even look at her; he turns away and is near tears because he remembers Jack's love for him and how he could not respond to and accept it and make accommodation for it. That realization makes him change his mind and take the courageous step of risking his job (and risking having uncomfortable emotions!) in order to go to his daughter's wedding after all -- at last he will stand up for love, even if it's the love of his daughter and her boyfriend and not his own love for Jack. Gut-wrenchingly beautiful scene which, along with the scene in the Twist home, should on their own have garnered the Best Actor Oscar for Heath Ledger.

It's the only time Ennis says the word 'love'...   
  by toycoon      (Tue Jun 13 2006 22:08:39 )   
   
UPDATED Mon Jul 3 2006 22:09:58
very nice, doctordon-

I noticed the other morning when I watched the movie all the way through for the first time in a few weeks, that the reason that Ennis doesn't seem to know anything about Kurt ( Jr.'s new boyfriend ) is that it has been two years since Jack died. Ennis has been in daze for 2 years and apparently has been missing in action for most of this time.

It IS truly heartbreaking ( and I love Heath Ledger in this scene) because Ennis can't even say the word 'love' without thinking of Jack.

Sometimes I think Ennis means, " Jack, I swear... I'll spend the rest of my life making it up to you..."

Re: It's the only time Ennis says the word 'love'...   
  by doctordon     (Wed Jun 14 2006 09:49:01 )   

I think you're right, there.

What a compelling scene and so much communicated with a gesture, an expression, a pause, i.e., with acting, not speechifying. Brilliant.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by AltaireIII     (Tue Jul 11 2006 11:43:23 )   
   
Maybe it is Wyoming hospitality or something, but why would she invite Ennis (at this point a stranger who they only know by reference) to go up to Jack's room?

O.K. here is my take. I am openly gay and my parents suspected and downright knew I was for a long time. They've known for over 20 years I am gay and they accept it. Somehow, if parents and siblings are open minded, then they can know things about family even if such things are never discussed.

Jack's mother knew about her son and she accepted it. She may not have preferred it. But she was willing to accept the world as it was when it came to her son.

I think she sent Ennis upstairs to Jack's room so she could tacitly tell him she accepted Ennis and his part in Jack's life. Notice how she invited him back? jack could have spoken much about Ennis over the years. Maybe through Jack's talks about Ennis, his parents did not see Ennis as a total stranger.

Jack's father to some level also accepted Jack's situation. He certainly did not prefer it as much as his wife did. But he made it under the wire and accepted things as they are if only by a narrow margin. He never stopped his wife from inviting Ennis in, offering cake and coffee, sending him upstairs and letting Ennis keep the shirts. He did draw the line about scattering the ashes. That's entirely fair.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by HellsThorn     (Thu Jul 20 2006 17:14:06 )   
   
Just thinking about this makes me sad

"I'm sorry, I'm Sorry." "its alright."

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by ZouBEinii      (Thu Jul 20 2006 17:49:46 )   
   
I agree - this was a touching moment for me too.

I'm glad that I was able to see this old thread. I also agree with the original poster. When she put her hand on Ennis' shoulder it was almost a visible 'push' to get him to go to Jack's room. I think she wanted him to find them, knowing they were only meaningful to Jack and Ennis.

When Ennis came downstairs with the shirts rolled up, she nodded once and smiled slightly, giving her approval that he had found, knew the significance of, and wanted to keep the shirts. She immediately reached for a paper bag.

When Mr. Twist told Ennis that Jack would be buried, not scattered on BBM, Mrs. Twist stood with her back to Mr. Twist, put her hand to her throat, and the look she gave him appeared apologetic - that she had no control of the situation.

When Ennis was leaving - standing on the porch (out of Mr. Twist's sight) he quietly thanked Mrs. Twist for the shirts - and I think, for her kindness.


What kind of friend is he? -Bree
The good kind. -Andrew

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by greathornytoads     (Thu Jul 20 2006 19:30:24 )   
   
I've got to add my 2 cents worth. That kitchen scene was worthy of a Puccini opera. Jack was the eternal optimist, who, had Ennis been able to commit, would have flourished. Because he could not find a suitable mate, his dreams never came true, and his father and wife were critical. But Ennis and Jack's mother knew different. I think the significance of being Pentecost speaks to the 'severity' of the religion (I, who was born and raised in the most fundamental & severe Church of Christ). The kitchen was downright Spartan. The entire homestead was bleak. Jack's mother knew the significance of the shirts. I thought Jack's mother had a very knowing look on her face when he came down the stairs with those shirts. Yes, I agree, it's almost as if she knew that moment was going to happen. The contrast between the significance and value of the shirts compared to the brown paper bag was heart breaking in and of itself. We’ve all opened paper bags like that before, but was it just me, or was the sound her opening that paper bag just too stark as well as familiar? Her putting her hand to her throat when Jack's father was telling Ennis that Jack was to be buried in the family plot spoke to her fear of her husband. She beseeched Ennis with her eyes not to contradict. She stepped outside and Ennis ‘thanked’ her with his gesture, and she responded in kind – these were the gestures of two people who have a common understanding and I think they bonded at that moment, which is why she invited him back.

I don’t think ( IMHO ) that there is any real significance with his daughter being married in the Methodist church. Baptist or Catholic or any other mainstream denomination would do so long as it was a church wedding. I think the more important point is what I think was his moment of regret when he looks out the window after asking his daughter if her future husband really did love her – acknowledging that he wanted to make sure nobody did to his little girl what he had done to her mother.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by sunsetsilk      (Thu Jul 20 2006 20:26:02 )   
   
You might be interested in the following threads:

http://imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/nest/35429142

http://imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/nest/41663214

http://imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/nest/42181604

AltarieIII, I believe you make the most sense here..   
  by toycoon      (Thu Jul 20 2006 20:43:44 )   
   
UPDATED Mon Jul 24 2006 21:39:06
Both parents must have known to some extent. Pa Twist is not crazy about the whole Gay thing considering Jack has gone on and on about Ennis for so long, at this point he's just over it and Ennis.

Ma Twist was glad to finally see a person from the outside world ! She completely accepts Ennis as family because he was such a good friend to her son and she feels as though she knows him.

Sometimes I wonder if Ennis ever did come back to see Mr. and Mrs. Twist and have some of that cherry cake...

Re: AltarieIII, I believe you make the most sense here..   
  by HellsThorn     (Thu Jul 20 2006 21:53:07 )   
   

She definatly could of known about the shirts,but there is still a small possibility that she didn't. That reaction i got from her when she saw Ennis with the shirts,was "okay,i understand,you want something to remember him by" She obviously knew about Jack and Ennis, she's a mother,they always seem to know that stuff. But i'm not completely putting her knowing about them out.
"I'm sorry, I'm Sorry." "its alright."

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by jujide     (Sat Jul 22 2006 12:48:41 )   
   
I was wondering what the significance was at the very end when we see that Ennis had placed the shirt on top of the jacket now and then he goes and buttons the top button.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by HellsThorn     (Sat Jul 22 2006 13:07:43 )   
   
Jack's blue shirt is in Ennis's White shirt, its saying "jack, me and you are one" or "Jack, you are in my heart" He buttons the buttons almost in a way of protecting those shirts, like " Jack i will never let anything bad happen to you or your memory"

"I'm sorry, I'm Sorry." "its alright."

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by summergal38     (Sun Jul 23 2006 11:14:58 )   
   

You could be right.

I had a feeling that both Mr & Mrs Twist knew their son was gay; in what they said, and the way they acted towards Ennis. Jack's mother was welcoming, while his father was very hostile.

"Why are you wearing that stupid man suit?" Frank (Donnie Darko)

RE shirts: CHECK THIS OUT   
  by LauraGigs     (Sun Jul 23 2006 12:04:11 )   
   
Didn't realize it until I saw this still from that scene:

http://www.bioscop.cz/_web/_filmy/b_zkrocena_hora/fotografie/099_zkrocena_hora.jpg

Look at what she's wearing over her housedress, and what colors they are!

lauragigs, I never noticed that detail...   
  by toycoon      (Sat Aug 5 2006 10:26:23 )   
   
That's a very compelling inclusion and it's another bookend moment, too.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by Doug-Nasty     (Sun Jul 23 2006 12:17:34 )   
   
To hsenohio: You have pretty well hit the nail on the head! It does appear that Jack's mother knew at least something about her son's "other life." Her eyes said it very clearly. Ang's use of camera angles to focus on the eyes of all the character's is another facet of this compelling movie that makes you want to come back again, and again. It also has already been mentioned, and I will emphasize this again for those who haven't caught it yet. When Ennis is holding the two shirts, and he takes a deep breath while holding the cuff of Jack's shirtsleeve close to his nose, even with the moving musical score playing in the background, you CAN hear Ennis, basically with his deep breath, saying "those three words", which all throughout the film you never hear either Jack or Ennis say to each other. All of this adds to the heartbreaking conclusion the Best Performance, and Best Picture of 2005.
Regards: djo9449



Doug O'Connor

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by electric_storm     (Mon Jul 24 2006 06:56:43 )   
   
Yep, I also caught "those three words" the last time I saw it. Just about my new favourite part of the movie now, because it's so comforting to know that Ennis manages to vocalise this. Tragic that it takes Jack's death to awaken this in him, but comforting the same. He is literally 'hugging' Jack and telling him he loves him finally. Also note that even in total isolation wrapped up in his emotions for Jack, Ennis can only bring himself to whisper those words in a barely audible, almost apologetic tone. That's why I think his use of the word 'love' with Alma Jnr. is so significant, because he is actually registering and accepting the importance of that word, and it's significance to what he felt for Jack, in the open.

I find the relationship between Ennis and Jack's mother almost the most touching in the entire film. They share such a special bond, the person that they both love or loved most in the world is the same, Jack, and there is so much understanding and mutual grieving in their looks with each other. I think his mum definately knew about the relationship between Ennis and Jack, whether she knew about the shirts isn't so importannt really. She recognised how comforting and important the visit to the bedroom (love someone's intepretation of it as Jack's 'gravesite') and those shirts were for Ennis the moment he appeared with him. She used them as a token of her acceptance, almost to say "thankyou for loving my son" and that she knew all along. Just how much she knew and planned beforehand is down to specualtion.

I didn't lose my mind...it was mine to give away

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts
  by Doug-Nasty     (Mon Jul 24 2006 15:48:51 )   
   
To electric storm: This has also become one of my favourite, though pretty much the most painful part of the film to watch now. I think it shows that Ennis, although keeping his feelings buried so deep, DID HAVE THOSE FEELINGS!

I also like your take on the way Ennis uses the word "LOVE" when talking to Alma Jr. I thought that after he says this and looks away, he is at that point thinking of the one person in his life that he truly "loved" completely, JACK TWIST!

"I was just sending up a prayer of thanks." "For what?" "For you forgettin' to bring that harmonica!"
Regards, and keep the discussions going!
Doug O'Connor

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by neil-s-1     (Mon Jul 24 2006 23:36:16 )   
   
In relation to another statement regarding Jack's ashes being wrapped in the shirts, the one thing that strikes me as odd is that at the end of the film, we see a postcard of Brokeback Mountain pinned to the inside of the cupboard next to the shirts, is it me or did we not see this postcard before this particular scene.

To me, its almost recognition that maybe he did take the ashes and lay Jack to rest at Brokeback Mountain and picked up a postcard; almost as if Jack has sent his last postcard. The Post Card did look to be new or newer in relation to the ones that we are shown.

I understand that it could also just be another post card that Jack had sent him from their last encounter.

Neil

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by idgeet     (Fri Aug 4 2006 23:25:16 )   
   
It was a shrine of sorts. It was the first postcard Ennis received from Jack with the mountain on it.

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Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by derrydoll     (Sat Aug 5 2006 07:03:40 )   
   
I can't imagine how Ennis would have coped if he didn't have the closure and reassurance that those shirts bring

I feel that Ennis would have self destructed. That possibly his rage..would have killed him in the end. The kind of end...that he had spent 20 years trying to avoid.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by idgeet     (Sat Aug 5 2006 16:44:01 )   
   
You're right. It actually wasn't the postcard I don't think. The book says he bought one. The movie shows it actually is a different card from the first one. Sorry.

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Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by jujide     (Sat Aug 5 2006 19:09:36 )   
   
Isn't it bittersweet that in the prior scene Ennis' 19 yr old daughter gleafully tells her dad that she's getting married. I think that this is what leads Ennis to dwell at the closet at the end with tears in his eyes. Ennis never really had the opportunity at 19 to live happily ever after with the love of his life. Keeping that longing and yearning bottled up for 20 years has to be maddening, to say the least. And now, to know that Jack is no longer out there....the permanance of his unfulfillment as he reflects on all the years gone by and what might have been, must be one of the most depressing realizations that I can think of.

I am a straight male and have absolutely no homosexual inclinations or desires. But I do have to conclude that this is one of the most profoundly moving films about true love that I have ever seen. When I saw a clip of Gene Shalit saying that this is not about love, but about lust, I was thinking that he surely must have seen a different movie.

Finally, and with apologies to you gay folks out there, I almost turned this film off after seeing the love scene in the tent. It's hard for me to get used to seeing two men getting it on like that. But by the end of the film none of that really seemed to matter. It's all about the love that two human beings had for one another. And the fact that it went unfulfilled actually saddened me. And this, to me, is a testament to the power of the film.

This is exactly what I would want folks to leave the theater with...
  by toycoon      (Sun Aug 6 2006 08:44:54 )   
   
UPDATED Sun Aug 6 2006 08:47:23
The bittersweet ironies and the opportunies lost are what makes this movie so universal and enigmatic to me.
Like I've said before, I can see how folks would freak out a little at this point. As a Gay male, even I was sort of squeamish after the first tent scene. The sequence was pretty 'up in your face'. Of course, it is supposed to be as startling for the viewer as it was for Ennis.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by idgeet     (Sun Aug 6 2006 21:09:22 )   
   
But I do have to conclude that this is one of the most profoundly moving films about true love that I have ever seen.

It's all about the love that two human beings had for one another. And the fact that it went unfulfilled actually saddened me. And this, to me, is a testament to the power of the film.


jujide... a beautiful post. thank you.



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Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by crrmdmd     (Mon Aug 14 2006 14:29:06 )   
   
UPDATED Mon Aug 14 2006 14:34:07
I'm sorry if this has been said before (I got tired of reading the posts half way down). I think when Jack came home from brokeback mountain, he hung the shirts up. Most people don't neatly hang up clothes that they want washed. I don't think his mother knew exactly what those shirts meant to Jack, but I'm sure she knew they meant something since he hung up dirty, blood-stained clothes in a hidden part of the closet.

I believe his mother did know however that Jack had formed a bond with this "Ennis" fellow while on BBM, and maybe those shirts had something to do with that since he obviously left them in his closet for almost 20 years!

I think Jack's mother sent Ennis upstairs because she was doing like a lot of people do when someone visits the family of the deceased. She sent him to his room so that he could have a little time "alone" with Jack. Many people in the southern part of the US believe that a person's "presence" can be strongly felt when amongst a person's space and/or property. When Ennis brought the shirts downstairs, this probably confirmed that those shirts were of importance to Jack and Ennis - together! If you look again, when he comes downstairs, he motions the shirts toward her as if to ask if it is okay. Her nod finally confirms that those old bloody shirts finally made sense and that it was okay for Ennis to take them. I'm sure no matter what Ennis took from that room (the figurine or whatever) it would have been okay. She just wanted Ennis to have something to remember Jack by since she knew they were close. This was especially important since she knew her husband wasn't going to give Ennis Jack's ashes.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by bgieDbean136     (Tue Aug 15 2006 12:49:11 )   
   
I was thinking the same thing. I didn't really think much about how she asked if Ennis wanted to go into Jack's room because I thought it was a perfectly normal thing to do; however, the packaging of the shrit I found random.

But I guess when you think about it, Jack probably told his mom about Brokeback Mountain and meeting Ennis (obviously since the father knows his name), and Jack's mom might have known that that was the shirt that Jack took with him to Brokeback Mountain.

Okay I've said my two piece.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by chantelpatricio     (Tue Aug 15 2006 13:14:49 )   

I never actually thought of that, but now that i think about it, your probably right.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by susanbass     (Tue Aug 15 2006 18:18:21 )   
   
Hi Everyone...new to the board but very interested in this thread. I'm not nearly as eloquent as others posting here but I'll give it a shot.

I read on another board that, although not stated obviously, Jack tended to go back to Lightning Flat right after every encounter with Ennis. He goes home immediately after their first summer together, bringing the shirts with him. Don't you think that he spent a few moments in the closet sniffing those shirts through the winter (or however long he was home that time)? Maybe Mom caught him a time or two?

Also, this same poster from another board stated that Lightening Flat was Jack's "decompression chamber". He needed time to get over having just been with Ennis before he could return back to Texas and Lureen. His parents also lived in Wyoming (where all his "fishing" trips were conveniently located) so Lureen would not be suspicious of his going to visit his parents. He used this opportunity to get over leaving Ennis (again!)and to sniff the shirts!

His Mom would have surely picked up on the fact that the only time she would get to see her beloved Jack was after he had just been with Ennis. Must have made her thankful for Ennis, don't you think? I know that if I had to live with Mr. Twist, I would be thrilled to death to have a visit from someone who was so obviously important to my son...I mean, he (Ennis) is the only reason Jack even comes to Wyoming anymore... Make any sense at all?...

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by jackie-77     (Fri Nov 10 2006 03:06:46 )   

Great thread.

I think Jack's mom found the shirts at some point while cleaning in the room but respected Jack enough to put them right back where she found them and never touch them again (except maybe after he died, and then probably only once). She would have known the shirt tucked inside her son's wasn't his.

They weren't spattered with blood, so the story behind them didn't involve horrific violence. Blood on a cuff somewhat suggests wiping a bloody nose with your sleeve. If Jack just got into a fistfight with some guy, he would have no reason to come by possession of the other guy's shirt, and less reason to want and save it.

Blood on both cuffs suggests that whichever one of them had the bloody nose and wiped it with his sleeve, the other one used his sleeve to help wipe it too. So the bloody nose hadn't arisen from genuine animosity of any kind, and there was at least some tenderness between the two men, though not necessarily beyond a close friendship.

I won't speculate on what more she may have deduced just from the shirts themselves, since even this may be fishing a bit (pun intentional but not premeditated).

She may not have figured out that the order of the shirts showed Jack's tenderness toward the owner of the other shirt, since it would be logical to place the foreign shirt where it was even more hidden than both shirts were, namely inside the other one. (Though I believe it did absolutely have that significance for Jack, and to Ennis, and for Ennis when he switched them.)

I think over time she would have grasped what Ennis meant to Jack. I think that Ennis finding the shirts in their hidden spot showed that Ennis deeply understood Jack. (Though I agree that before he found them he didn't understand the depth of Jack's love.) His wanting the shirts as his one memento of her son whom she knows he loves and knows loved him, tells her that Ennis is the owner of the other shirt, if she still had the slightest doubt.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by ClancyPantsNasty     (Fri Nov 10 2006 09:41:30 )   
   
Hi jackie-77 --

I agree completely. Very nicely said.


Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by jackie-77     (Fri Nov 10 2006 12:48:29 )   

Very nicely said.


Thank you.

I also loved how their hands touched slightly when they were putting the shirts into the bag, and loved that Ennis allowed it to happen.

Jackie

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by silvertron     (Tue Dec 26 2006 15:23:15 )   
   
jackie-77

your interpretation is indeed nicely said, and no less valid than mine or anyone elses...but, I still say you guys are extrapolating things way, way beyond what is shown in the movie.

But, whatever floats your boat!

Re: bump   
  by Dancing_Bear     (Fri Nov 24 2006 15:23:39 )   
   
UPDATED Thu Nov 30 2006 08:16:23
Can't get this movie out of my mind! OK, spoiler, my explanations for the bloody shirts...

When Ennis calls Lureen, she is obviously new to his voice, so there had been no contact there previously. Seems Jack compartmentalized his life as much as Ennis. Ennis had at least introduced him sunnily to Alma when he first rolled into town. Second, Lureen has never met Jack's parents. They aren't well off for money but this indicates that even though Jack married into money, he either blocked Lureen from ever visiting Wyoming or she was never interested enough to meet his parents in the course of a 20 year (?) marriage. Surely he could have flown his parent to Texas at least once to see their grandchild? I think he was protecting the secrecy of his relationship with Ennis. Then, after telling Ennis to get in touch with Jack's parents in Lightning Flat, Lureen swiftly hangs up on him, leaving him in pain and uncomforted. Usually when people call to condole about a loved one's death there's some sharing of fellow feeling, but I see none here. For the first time ever, Ennis seeks out Jack, I'm guessing he doesn't have even a memento of their time together. I assume that he carefully got rid of the evidence of the postcards they traded during the years, otherwise they would have surfaced somewhere in the end. So he makes a pilgrimmage of sorts to Jack's family home in Lightning Flats, looking for some relic to hang on to that could symbolize his love, or some souvenir of that love, something tangible to hang on to. Ennis experienced a number of epiphanies with Jack, mainly the discovery that he had found a soulmate and it wasn't possible to judge the love of his life using any of the parameters he had been taught in that society. When he arrives at the Twist family home, it's a stark setting, all white (in Asia I think white is a symbolized color of death), and when Jack's mother invites him to go upstairs to Jack's room, you see him ascending the stairs in almost a spiritual way. He has already been told by Jack's father that Jack had taken up with another rancher and Jack himself had told him he'd been to Mexico and been with other guys. So I imagine that Ennis is feeling like maybe Jack abandoned the exclusiveness of the love they had together and moved on. From that colorless house, he opens the door and you see a comparative riot of color on the bed (the quilt, sporting patches of 'happiness' red, how's that for symbolism) and not much else. Exploring forlornly, he treats the room as Jack's shrine, it's almost as empty as the rest of the house that we've seen. Just that little statue of the horse and rider and then he finds the few items in the closet. He's gone there to visit what he considers to be a shrine of Jack, only to find that Jack has made it into his shrine to Ennis, the shirts indicate that. This is proof and confirmation to Ennis that Jack had considered Ennis to be his one and only true love, he does not find evidence of any other man in Jack's life up there. Now my take on those bloody shirts is, Jack's mother never washed them because she came into that closet herself during the period after his death and she too hugged those shirts and breathed them in. I read before that when a rancher wants a sheep who's lost her lamb to go suckle another orphan lamb they won't do it unless you skin her dead baby and put the skin on the orphan. They smell it and are fooled into thinking that they now recognize this lamb and it's theirs. I have always heard that mother's smell their babies clothes and can recognize their smell from other babies. So this seems to me the real reason why she never washed those shirts. And it also seems to me that Ennis is possibly the first and only person ever to come to their home and condole about her baby. Why would she give up those precious shirts to Ennis, I think it's because Jack must have let her know how important Ennis had been to his life, and she can see how painful it is for Ennis to sit there in misery and endure the jibes of Old Man Twist, who was never satisfied with anything his son ever did in life. I can only imagine how miserable Jack's mother must have been living in that stark house all her life with that miserable old coot. So she knows how Ennis feels about Jack, and he's the only person she's ever seen who appreciated Jack as she did. Jack's wife certainly didn't, and Lureen sounded like she was never interested in meeting Jack's parents. Maybe if Old Man Twist dies soon Ennis can come live with Jack's mother and help out on the ranch, he lost his own mother but seems he's found another one. Doubt if he'd consider such a thing while the old man is alive. Anyway, I've been trying to consider a lot of the symbolism in the movie, and Ang Lee said in an interview that the whole beginning is like a dance between them, all kinds of subtle clues and glances to look for. If you consider his background, he's familiar with Buddhist and Taoist imagery, yin yang etc. Yin and yang are opposites such as black and white (now I need to pay attention to who wears the white, who wears the black, what characteristics are they displaying?) but each has an element of the other in it. Dark-light, husband-wife, hot-cold, blood-chi (chi is the energy that pumps the blood but in a living organism you can't have one without the other), and other analogies that I will be looking for. And I do love that analogy of the shirts as folded flag being presented to the loved one, very poignant.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by mutton-5     (Fri Nov 24 2006 16:41:27 )   
   
i love this whole scene in the twist farmhouse. jack's mom is so accepting and so loving. she stands next to the paperbags which are on the countertop anticipating ennis' discovery of the 2 shirts, one is tucked inside the other. she opens a bag as soon as she sees him come down the stairs. the shirts remind me of me and my bf. i used to put my big ole barnboots one on either side of his smaller ones in the foyer, like i was caressing him. this is one of the scenes i cry. isn't ennis sweet when he gets to his place he switches the shirts around. i just love that.

Re: Jack's Mother and the shirts   
  by Dancing_Bear     (Fri Nov 24 2006 17:32:05 )   

Sounds like you have experienced a love like that, congratulations, actually I've noticed that some of the gay guys I've known in the past have been VERY sentimenal and sweet with each other, they played like a pack of puppies (like Jack and Ennis on Brokeback as Aguirre watches through his binoculars), and you can't mistake that look of being in love as they gazed into each others eyes. Maybe they were just so happy that they didn't have to hide it amongst the people of their acquaintance, but to compare with the movie, I am wondering if it's an element of roughneck freedom which Ennis loves in Jack that he can't share with any women. Would it have made any difference to his relationship with Alma, I wonder, if she was willing to rough it and go camping with him, share his love of the great outdoors and ranching life? Running around naked on the mountain, tussling and skinnydipping in the lake? I suppose he couldn't have his cake and eat it too. I guess I can't get over how happy he first seemed with Alma in the years before Jack contacts him again. Once she sees that reunion kiss, their marriage is toast. But I ramble yet again. That story about lining up your boots is sure to garner a number of sentimental boohoos from the fans on this board! Hanky, please!

[Front-Ranger]

The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that Ma Twist knew about the shirts. The story tells us that when Ennis looked in the closet, he found jeans hanging neatly, even though Jack would never be back to wear those jeans. The jeans were even crease-ironed, like dress pants with a crease down the center of each leg. Ma Twist lovingly cared for all the clothes in the closet...except for the shirts. She left the shirts alone in their niche because they were obviously icons (in the traditional sense) and she didn't wash out the blood that stiffened the sleeves.

I've had a little time to think about this...more than four years!!

[optom3]

I am utterly convinced Jack's mum knew of the shirts and their significance. When my son was in jail recently, I wandered through his room touching and smelling his clothes, wanting some little part of him. I knew beyond any doubt that I could wash some things, but not others, namely the new shirt I had only recently bought him, also the tshirt his girl friend had given him.

I found it tucked under his pillow. I just know that mums intuitively recognise the "special" value of some things.The rest of his room I had an overwhelming desire to make pristine as if that would somehow restore some order elsewhere.

Why is it that even thinking of that scene again causes the tears to fall, even after all this time. It is so beautifully and elegantly crafted, no word is excessive, no gesture overblown, just the terrible and unrelenting grief which is portrayed so starkly it becomes all the more unbearable. The quiet pent up sorrow that no one dare demonstrate in that bleak world.

[Front-Ranger]

This deserves a bump on Mother's Day!