'I swear...' Can it be? A new thought?
by - Shuggy (Wed Mar 22 2006 16:07:18 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Could it be that Ennis himself doesn't know what he swears? That "I swear..." is as far as he gets, and all he knows is that he swears SOMETHING to Jack?
"If you can't stand it, you gotta fix it" and more at
www.cafepress.com/ahua/1167379 Re: 'I swear...' Can it be? A new thought?
by - delalluvia (Wed Mar 22 2006 16:10:55 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Shugs,
According to the short story, he does know what he was about to swear. "Though Jack had never asked him to swear and was himself, not the swearing type..."
Don't know about Movie Ennis, though they do follow closely at this point in the movie.
Team Jolie
Re: 'I swear...' Can it be? A new thought?
by - Frank_Z (Wed Mar 22 2006 16:25:26 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to the short story, he does know what he was about to swear. "Though Jack had never asked him to swear and was himself, not the swearing type..."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Del, I have to disagree with that. I do not think that can be read as an indication that he knew what it was he wanted to swear. Maybe you could explain more fully how it is you think he does know what he was about to swear.
To me, it is another ambiguity, that allows the viewer to decide how to finish the sentence. He might as well have said, "I declare.." as my aged aunt used to do when expressing amazement. I do not remember Ms. Proulx's exact quote, but I will say it is up to the reader/viewer to finish the story in the act of reading/viewing it and applying it to his/her own experience.
That's the great thing about this film and story, it makes you think, if you are so inclined.
Re: 'I swear...' Can it be? A new thought?
by - afhickman (Wed Mar 22 2006 17:58:48 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think it's purposely ambiguous, but I like to think he's subconsciously uttering a kind of marriage vow. "I swear" is a phrase often heard in court, but also in church. It also echoes the balcony scene in Romeo and Juliet.
"The Mountain Has Wings"
Re: 'I swear...' Can it be? A new thought?
by - delalluvia (Wed Mar 22 2006 20:15:06 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to the short story, he does know what he was about to swear. "Though Jack had never asked him to swear and was himself, not the swearing type..."
Del, I have to disagree with that. I do not think that can be read as an indication that he knew what it was he wanted to swear. Maybe you could explain more fully how it is you think he does know what he was about to swear.
Hiya FrankZ.
I understand what you said about your aged aunt, but the example you use - it's expression of amazement - would not fit at this part of the story at all. What is Ennis being amazed at?
Obviously the phrase is incomplete. Ennis is not surprised or exclaiming at anything. He is trying to express a heart-felt emotion verbally and can't do it for any reason you might want to imagine.
How I read that part of the short story was by putting myself in Ennis' place. He starts to swear to Jack - "Jack I swear..." then stops himself. Why? He's wanting to swear. But swear what?
Something Jack never would have asked him to. He was in a deep, intimate relationship with Jack. What would Ennis be swearing to, to someone like that?
[shrugs]
I think it's rather obvious.
I do like what another poster said that the 1/2 sentence - Ennis unable to finish - was typical and symbolic of his entire life. A life half lived.
Team Jolie
Re: 'I swear...' Can it be? A new thought?
by - Frank_Z (Wed Mar 22 2006 21:26:14 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Del, thanks for the reply, and hiya right back atcha!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I understand what you said about your aged aunt, but the example you use - it's expression of amazement - would not fit at this part of the story at all. What is Ennis being amazed at?
Obviously the phrase is incomplete. Ennis is not surprised or exclaiming at anything. He is trying to express a heart-felt emotion verbally and can't do it for any reason you might want to imagine.
How I read that part of the short story was by putting myself in Ennis' place. He starts to swear to Jack - "Jack I swear..." then stops himself. Why? He's wanting to swear. But swear what?
Something Jack never would have asked him to. He was in a deep, intimate relationship with Jack. What would Ennis be swearing to, to someone like that?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Good thoughts. I am sure you realized I was not trying to say Ennis was astonished (except maybe at the emotions that he cannot subdue), but that sometimes an incomplete sentence can be used to completely express a state of mind. It is also a nice use of persuasive technique to lead the reader to the end of you thought, then make them take the last step themself.
But, I am just contrary enough to wait awhile to take that last step while I ponder this a little more:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Jack, I swear—" he said, though Jack had never asked him to swear anything and was himself not the swearing kind.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What if "Jack, I swear—" is the expression of his thoughts and feelings in as complete a manner as our language can come?
"Jack, I swear—" and no filling in of the blanks needed. In fact, maybe completing the sentence detracts from the reader/viewer's understanding of Ennis's state of mind and hides or misdirects attention from the complete idea already communicated.
I am reminded on this snippet which may or may not have any application here:
"When nothing is done,
nothing is left undone."
-Tao te Ching, Ch. 48
http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html --------------------------------
These are just a few thoughts for now, and of course comments are appreciated.
Re: 'I swear...' Can it be? A new thought?
by - delalluvia (Wed Mar 22 2006 21:36:31 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack, I swear—" and no filling in of the blanks needed. In fact, maybe completing the sentence detracts from the reader/viewer's understanding of Ennis's state of mind and hides or misdirects attention from the complete idea already communicated.
I can go along with this.
I am reminded on this snippet which may or may not have any application here:
"When nothing is done,
nothing is left undone."
-Tao te Ching, Ch. 48
Actually, this made me think of
"Daddy, you need more furniture."
"You got nuthin'
you don't need nuthin'."
Cheers Frank!
Team Jolie
Re: 'I swear...' Can it be? A new thought?
by - SuperBatMan (Wed Mar 22 2006 23:01:19 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It was a sentiment sorta thing, if you all noticed, Ennis had tears in his eyes and you felt it, you felt how much Ennis missed Jack. When Ennis said "Jack, I swear", I thought of it as being more moving in a way more than if he bluntly said how much he did...you could see it in him, words weren't needed, and it was a sentiment sorta thing when he said it. Also if you all noticed, that was Jack's shirt in the bottom, while Ennis's shirt was over Jack's blue one, I felt that meant that he will always be with him no matter what, thats the feeling I got from it!. I also thought it was smart for Ennis to say "I swear", because that was THEIR thing, and the message got acrossed IMHO!.
Re: 'I swear...' Can it be? A new thought?
by - pirates_are_hot (Wed Mar 22 2006 18:21:51 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've always taken that line as meaning that neither of them ever fully committed themselves to each other. Jack never said he loved Ennis either (we assume), and never asked anything of Ennis. And now, at the end of the story, Ennis is finally "swearing" himself to Jack. Something they never did when Jack was alive.
You have no idea how bad it gets. -BBM
Re: 'I swear...' Can it be? A new thought?
by - kevinmcg (Wed Mar 22 2006 16:13:56 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
UPDATED Wed Mar 22 2006 21:24:37
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He's saying "I love you", even though he can't say the words directly.
Brilliant writing.
Jack n' Ennis forever
Re: 'I swear...' Can it be? A new thought?
by - mg501 (Wed Mar 22 2006 18:03:29 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That line, or part of a line, bothered me, also. "I swear..." What was he referring to? I would really like to know what the writers had in the back of their minds when they wrote that line.
msg
Re: 'I swear...' Can it be? A new thought?
by - amandazehnder (Wed Mar 22 2006 18:27:48 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think the incomplete sentence relates directly to the conversation with his daughter right before. In the course of that conversation he realizes that the most important thing in her relationship that his daughter could hear from her fiance is that he loves her. Ennis has come to realize this since he is the one who brings it up with Alma Jr. I'm sure this caused him to think about Jack. I think there's no doubt that Jack and Ennis loved each other (and that they both really knew this), but Ennis must be filled with regret at losing his opportunity to openly and clearly say "I love you" to Jack or to really do something for him (like live with him or even move closer). And here, he's trying to articulate what he couldn't say when Jack was alive.
The ambiguity adds to the poignancy. I think the incomplete sentence is a metaphor for his regret at having only partially lived allowed himself to live his life. Partial sentance, incomplete life. It's also within his character to be inarticulate and awkward over emotional things.
But, I think he really is thinking "Jack I swear I loved you" or something like that. In the time between Jack's death and this final declaration, I think Ennis realizes quite a lot about his life and how much of an opportunity he lost.
Re: 'I swear...' Can it be? A new thought?
by - afhickman (Wed Mar 22 2006 18:49:58 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When he swears, he is standing in front of the shirts. Brokeback presides over the scene (from the postcard) like some kind of tutelary spirit, or a priest. Alma Jr. has just announced her wedding plans to Ennis; Ennis is enacting his own ceremony with Jack: "I swear I love you, Jack." The words don't need to be said.
"The Mountain Has Wings"
Re: 'I swear...' Can it be? A new thought?
by - pkdetroit (Fri Apr 21 2006 06:24:00 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
afhickman, I swear...I am not stalking you, but yet again we are on the same page.
What Proux meant "I swear" to mean is almost incidental. The line is so ambiguous that it, yet again, challenges us to come up with our own personal interpretations. I don't believe there is a definitive answer to what "I swear" means. There was another very long thread that had this same subject, and I was able to agree with dozens of interpretations, but my gut reaction when watching the movie is that Ennis is saying "Jack I love you" the only way he can.
"It was the Summer that Sebastian and I went to the Incantadas"
Re: 'I swear...' Can it be? A new thought?
by - silkncense (Wed Mar 22 2006 19:07:09 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amandazehnder - I agree completely. Ennis is practically in tears when he asks his daughter if "he loves you." He looks away & can barely continue the conversation (clearly thinking of Jack's love for him) whereupon his daughter sees his distress & takes up the conversation. Ennis is thinking about the extent of the love someone can feel & is articulating that to the essence (shirt) of Jack when he says, "I swear..."
"It's alright; 's alright; 's alright." Jack Twist
Re: 'I swear...' Can it be? A new thought?
by - stitchbuffymoulinfan (Wed Mar 22 2006 19:07:19 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think there's no doubt that Jack and Ennis loved each other (and that they both really knew this), but Ennis must be filled with regret at losing his opportunity to openly and clearly say "I love you" to Jack or to really do something for him (like live with him or even move closer). And here, he's trying to articulate what he couldn't say when Jack was alive.
The ambiguity adds to the poignancy. I think the incomplete sentence is a metaphor for his regret at having only partially lived allowed himself to live his life. Partial sentance, incomplete life. It's also within his character to be inarticulate and awkward over emotional things.
But, I think he really is thinking "Jack I swear I loved you" or something like that. In the time between Jack's death and this final declaration, I think Ennis realizes quite a lot about his life and how much of an opportunity he lost.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perfect summary. I completely agree.
I love the ambiguity of the writing here. If he had said "I love you, Jack" we would not be talking about this scene to this day. And this was just such a heartbreaking part of both the story and the movie.
www.jlodown.com www.petitionspot.com/petitions/jlodown Re: 'I swear...' Can it be? A new thought?
by - amandazehnder (Wed Mar 22 2006 22:22:25 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
thanks for liking my summary!
I think there's an amazing tension in this movie between ambiguity and certainty, as with this last line.
We don't really know that Jack was killed by gay bashers (since we only see this incident as part of Ennis's imagination). Yet I think we all know this is true. Neither Jack nor Ennis says "I love you". Yet, the overriding theme of the whole movie is about how their love for each other endures everything, including death. There are probably lots of examples of this tension between the movie making us wonder and yet, understanding things in a crystal clear way.
This movie just keeps getting more and more interesting as I think about it.
Re: 'I swear...' Can it be? A new thought?
by - Shuggy (Wed Mar 22 2006 22:46:44 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for all your thoughts, people.
"If you can't stand it, you gotta fix it" and more at
www.cafepress.com/ahua/1167379 Re: 'I swear...' Can it be? A new thought?
by - Michael-194 (Wed Mar 22 2006 22:56:45 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just a thought, but isn't the movie's catchphrase, "I wish I knew how to quit you", a declaration of love? To me, it's shorthand for "Ennis, I love you so much and it hurts so bad, I wish I could just stop loving you", put much more elegantly. Of course, Jake's delivery of the line is heartrending.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ENNIS:Hell, it's the most I spoke in a year.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: 'I swear...' Can it be? A new thought?
by - Frank_Z (Wed Mar 22 2006 23:02:34 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
amandazehnder on Wed Mar 22 2006 22:22:25
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We don't really know that Jack was killed by gay bashers (since we only see this incident as part of Ennis's imagination). Yet I think we all know this is true.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's not overstep, here. That has been the subject of long and intense debate. And it is not the subject of this thread. Let us agree that there is disagreement on the subject of the manner of Jack's demise and take that up on another thread.
I suggest this is as good as any on that subject and better than most:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/thread/34369258?d=34369258#34369258 Re: 'I swear...' Can it be? A new thought?
by - majikstl (Fri Apr 21 2006 08:54:25 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Consider these lyrics by Neil Diamond
from I AM... I SAID
But I got an emptiness deep inside
And I've tried, but it won't let me go
And I'm not a man who likes to swear
But I never cared for the sound of being alone
"I am," I said
To no one there
An no one heard at all
Not even the chair
"I am," I cried
"I am," said I
And I am lost, and I can't even say why
Leavin' me lonely still
Sometimes it is not what you say, but what you can't say that is most important.
Re: 'I swear...' Can it be? A new thought?
by - clancypants (Sun Apr 30 2006 11:33:44 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bump
Re: 'I swear...' Can it be? A new thought?
by - bryan_17 (Fri Apr 7 2006 15:06:19 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
bump
Re: 'I swear...' Can it be? A new thought?
by - gtaylor0 (Thu Apr 20 2006 16:26:42 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's funny, but when watching the scene without volume I swear - no pun - that Heath mouths "Ilove you" before he says "Jack, I swear," so it's like "I Love you Jack I swear." He alomst swallows the first words, if you watch his throat. I'm sure it's just me but it really sort of looks like that.
Re: 'I swear...' Can it be? A new thought?
by - taj_e (Fri Apr 21 2006 03:52:26 ) Ignore this User | Report Abuse
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I thought Proulx clearly said it means 'I love you' in one of her interviews
'I wish I knew how to quit BBM...'
[Post deleted]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This message has been deleted by the poster
