The Pentecost scene, again..

[j.U.d.E.]

I'm still intrigued about why this scene seems so very important - in so many ways.. I mean, we do get to know a very important fact - Ennis is still a virgin, but I was thinking about something else. You have two young strapping lads involved in a serious conversation and yet, there's never any 'girl talk' as you might think 19 year old guys would have.

Same thing when in an earlier scene, Ennis tells Jack about him getting married to Alma in November and Jack not reacting at all! Rather he continues bitching about Aguirre. Also, the look we have on Ennis' face right then, suggests to me, that this non-girl-talk from Jack might have been a first hint, that 'girls' don't interest Jack.

And one more thing - what on earth is Ennis poking at the fire all through the Pentecost scene?! It looks like it isn't even the fire he's aiming.. Is he nervous? About what?

~ j U d E

[TJ]

The Pentecost scene was an embellishment created for the movie. All of the dialog in that scene is not even in the original Annie Proulx story where even Ennis sang, too.

We might assume that Ennis Del Mar was a virgin sexually speaking by what is implied; but, I am not sure that he really was. Because the book's Ennis knew why he had the clear slick (at the end of his penis) which helped some as lubrication and he knew that he needed spit for extra lubrication, I think that Ennis was not a virgin when it came to being with guys.

Annie Proulx mentions Ennis being engaged to Alma in her introduction of Ennis and Jack at Aguirre's trailer.

But, bookwise, we only know that up on Brokeback Ennis had talked about Alma and him getting married  when the guys are about ready to DRIVE their pickup trucks off in opposite directions after getting paid in August.

The fire poking might have just been something that Heath Ledger decided to do.

[j.U.d.E.]

Interesting TJ!

I think that Ennis was not a virgin when it came to being with guys

You're saying what here? That Ennis had had sex with other guys before Jack? Hmm? All this time I was thinking at how Ennis' first sexual experience was with a guy, then Alma for a while.. and his last time with a guy again (Jack obviously). Then after Jack's death, to me it's like - that's it - Ennis will never again be with anyone again. I can't picture it.

I've read the novel twice (only), but my memory is like a sieve..

The fire poking might have just been something that Heath Ledger decided to do.

Could be. Like the idea. We all know how 'fidgety' Heath can be.. Cute.

~ j U d E

[cmr107]

We might assume that Ennis Del Mar was a virgin sexually speaking by what is implied; but, I am not sure that he really was. Because the book's Ennis knew why he had the clear slick (at the end of his penis) which helped some as lubrication and he knew that he needed spit for extra lubrication, I think that Ennis was not a virgin when it came to being with guys.

I'd like to point out the line "nothing he'd done before but no instruction manual needed."

[TJ]

I'd like to point out the line "nothing he'd done before but no instruction manual needed."

Yes, I know that line; but, I think that Annie Proulx was using irony here and conjunction "but" implies that she is. I have heard people say the opposite of what they meant or even read in other people's writings where a statement like what you quoted was made and the author contradicted it in the text later.

I am not that familiar with Annie Proulx's writings; and I have a problem keeping concentration for very long in books these days. But, I did look at some of her works in the Central branch of the local library system and it seems that she wrote Brokeback Mountain differently than what I was able to read in the shelved books of hers.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Sorry, but I'm not really following what difference the "but" conjunction and the ironic tone make. It seems pretty clear to me that "Nothing he'd done before" means Ennis had never before done what he was about to do to Jack.

As to whether Ennis in the story was a complete virgin--had never been with a woman--I'm not sure we really have any evidence to go on to draw a conclusion. Ennis in the story was 19-going-on-20 at that time. If he was anything like me, by that age he may have been "wringing it out" for years and new perfectly well what the "clear slick" was. He'd also been working on ranches since he was about 14, so he must have heard older hands talking and joking.

I think Movie Ennis's remark to Jack about never having had the opportunity for sinning is a pretty clear indication that he's a virgin--a remarkable admission by a 19- or 20-year-old and, I think, an indication of how close he had grown to Jack. This could well be a difference between the two Ennises, Story and Movie, that is, maybe Story Ennis wasn't a virgin and Movie Ennis was.

[RouxB]

I am also of the virgin interpretation and certainly as it pertains to men. Remember this is 1963 and, unlike today, every teenager in America was not having sex. There is nothing in the story and nothing in the build-up to the first tent scene to suggest that Ennis had any sexual experience much less with a man. To suggest that he did, IMO, kind of trivalizes his relationship with Jack. Jack was EVERYTHING to Ennis-friend, confidant, lover-in the way that only first experiences are. And in the context of the time, I don't think it would be at all unusual for Alma to be a virgin as well.

As for the scene, I think it was to show their growing bond-Ennis "playing drums" to Jack's singing and the sweetness and honesty of their gazes when Ennis says "I ain't yet had the opportunity" and Jack goes " hmmmm". And, contrary to some posts, I don't see this as a pick-up line by any stretch of the imagination. Also, a foreboding of Jack's death.
 

[cmr107]

Yes, Jeff and Ruby. Exactly.

[serious crayons]

maybe Story Ennis wasn't a virgin and Movie Ennis was.

Funny, Jeff! They really are starting to seem like two completely separate characters.

Here are my votes: Was he a virgin with women? Maybe. With men? Yes. Is virginity what he was referring to? Probably. Was it deliberate flirting? No. Unconscious flirting? Possibly. Indication of close friendship? You bet.

[TJ]

I just looked at the short story again a few hours ago and while the movie seems to show that "Ennis got that opportunity to sin" that night with Jack after he sang "Water-Walking Jesus," what is in the next book paragraph implies that it was not on the same night.

The discussion of what "Pentecost" meant is not in Annie Proulx's story.

This paragraph is from page 13 of the 2005 paperback book edition of the story.

The summer went on and they moved the herd to new pasture, shifted the camp; the distance between the sheep and the new camp was greater and the night ride longer.
Ennis rode easy, sleeping with his eyes open, but the hours he was away from the sheep stretched out and out. Jack pulled a squalling burr out of the harmonica, flattened a little from a fall off the skittish bay mare, and Ennis had a good raspy voice; a few nights they mangled their way through some songs. Ennis knew the salty words to "Strawberry Roan." Jack tried a Carl Perkins song, bawling "what I say-ay-ay," but he favored a sad hymn, "Water-Walking Jesus," learned from his mother who believed in the Pentecost, that he sang at dirge slowness, setting off distant coyote yips.
   "Too late to go out to them damn sheep," said Ennis, dizzy drunk on all fours one cold hour when the moon had notched past two. The meadow stones glowed white-green and a flinty wind worked over the meadow, scraped the fire low, then ruffled it into yellow silk sashes. "Got you a extra blanket I'll roll up out here and grab forty winks, ride out at first light."

Notice in the quoted paragraphs, everything does not happen all at the same time. I interpret that "one cold hour when the moon had notched past two" as a different night than the times where they were doing the singing of some songs. Notice that they did not sing songs only one time or that Jack was the only one singing. 

[RouxB]

The movie, while pretty closely following the book, is not the same. Even using just the book, there is nothing to say the singing and the sexing didn't happen on the same night. The description of the singing does not have a time frame attached to it-only that it was an activity that they engaged in and the "but he favored a sad hymn, "Water-Walking Jesus," seems to imply that he sang it more than once.

[j.U.d.E.]

I know that Ennis being a virgin or not is hot topic and very much subject for discussion  but my point for this thread was rather, that there we have two young hot guys who don't do 'girl talk' at all. Something you would expect them to do. So, somewhere, subtly (is that a word?) they kind of hint to each other, that girls are not important to them. Even if they do it unconsciously, I think one 'gets' the other.. If you know what I mean..

~ j U d E

[serious crayons]

Jude, it's a great observation! I had noticed that Jack doesn't respond when Ennis his marriage plans, but I hadn't thought about how Ennis must have noticed it, too, and registered its meaning at some level. Same with other "girl talk." (In fact, the only time they discuss anything even remotely related to sex, it's about a coyote's testicles!)

This should be cataloged among the subtle signals that the tent scene doesn't just spring out of nowhere.

[Aussie Chris]

Ummm, could we have an explanation as to what "girl talk" is in this context?  I mean, are we talking REALLY subtle, so that I missed it?

[serious crayons]

Ummm, could we have an explanation as to what "girl talk" is in this context?  I mean, are we talking REALLY subtle, so that I missed it?

I guess I phrased that a bit confusingly. It's not that they DO engage in girl talk, it's that they DON'T. Actually, it's Jude's observation: he noted that they never talk about girls, as you might expect straight 19-year-old men to do, and he's saying they probably noticed this about each other and got a clue.

[Kd5000]

Yes, lack of girl talk does seem perplexing here... And yes, I do believe in the 1950's and 1960's, boys talked alot about girls, if they weren't losing their virginity at age 15 as they do now, they still (well some of 'em) had alot of hormone activity for the opposite esex.

Ennis doesn't know Jack's "situation." The queer thing would be so out there, especially given gay sterotypes of the early 1960's, I'm sure it wouldn't have crossed Ennis's mind that Jack might be gay. 

Of course, Ennis doesn't seem the prying type. If Jack want's to volunteer info, Ennis will listen, but that's about it.  They do discuss their plans to get each get their own place, but maybe that's to let off steam about having to work for their S.O.B. boss.   

I wouldn't expect Jack to ask Ennis to many"general girl questions," even if Jack was straight. It's just one of those things, after you find out a guy is engaged, you usually ask questions about "Alma" in this case. I noticed Jack wasn't too inquisitive about Alma.

I would, as a polite courtesy, "oh, she sounds nice, gotta a photo of her."  Of course, Jack might be in denial that he's falling for a guy whose getting married. Don't want to hear that.  Means their relationship can only go so far.

[serious crayons]

I'm sure it wouldn't have crossed Ennis's mind that Jack might be gay. 

It might not have crossed his mind consciously, but he must have registered the possibility on some level. For example, the night after the bear encounter, he notices that Jack's ministrations are exceptionally tender and caring. If Jack were straight, nervous about physical boundaries with another man, he might have just handed him the wet cloth in a gruff manner. As it is, Ennis gets self-conscious and annoyed that Jack crossed the line, snatches the cloth away. He probably doesn't go, "Hmm. Wonder if Jack is gay?" because he has trained himself never to think directly about that stuff. He probably doesn't think about the whole interaction for more than a second or two. But that doesn't mean he isn't absorbing the information.

And definitely under other circumstances, Jack would have politely responded to the Alma information. And Ennis might have discussed her more often. It's like when you're in a relationship but become interested in someone else, you may not lie about your boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse, but you might not talk much about them, either.

[j.U.d.E.]

It might not have crossed his mind consciously, but he must have registered the possibility on some level. For example, the night after the bear encounter, he notices that Jack's ministrations are exceptionally tender and caring. If Jack were straight, nervous about physical boundaries with another man, he might have just handed him the wet cloth in a gruff manner. As it is, Ennis gets self-conscious and annoyed that Jack crossed the line, snatches the cloth away. He probably doesn't go, "Hmm. Wonder if Jack is gay?" because he has trained himself never to think directly about that stuff. He probably doesn't think about the whole interaction for more than a second or two. But that doesn't mean he isn't absorbing the information.

EXACTLY! Really! The bear incident (Ennis coming back to camp) is one very good point!

But that doesn't mean he isn't absorbing the information.

Perfectly said! I think so too.

Their silent curiosity in each other starts even much much earlier and is very obvious sometimes - it's a lot in the eyes (see thread about 'eye contact') and some of their behaviour/attitude/movements in the first 20/25 minutes of the film - very subtle 'checking out'/'finding out' moments..

~ j U d E
latjoreme - I'm a he with an 's'.. 

[Toast]

It is interesting that you missed the fact that Ennis knew the SALTY words to the Strawberry Roan.

Wouldn't we like to hear him ahum some of it?

How would that fit in with the discussion of the Pentecost and virginity?

see lyrics attached

[serious crayons]

latjoreme - I'm a he with an 's'.. 

Woops!!! Jude, I'm so sorry. I've been seeing your name since way, way back in the imdb days, and somehow all this time I have been picturing you as a guy. You were cute as a man, if it's any consolation! (Gotta start paying attention to those little symbols in the upper-left.)

It's funny how if you haven't seen people's photos, you somehow develop images of them anyway, which probably have no relation to reality.
 

[j.U.d.E.]

No worries latjoreme!

I've been seeing your name since way, way back in the imdb days,

Oh? *blush*

and somehow all this time I have been picturing you as a guy. You were cute as a man, if it's any consolation!

Hell yes!   Now I'm sorry I told you!

It's funny how if you haven't seen people's photos, you somehow develop images of them anyway, which probably have no relation to reality.

Indeed!  But my picture is on the frapper-map....

~ j U d E

[serious crayons]

Often, my mental image of people is strongly influenced by the picture in their avatars. So no wonder I thought you were cute!

[TJ]

I was born in November 1942 and I was close to the ages of Annie Proulx's Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist in the summer of 1963.

I know by experience and reflecting back to what I knew about certain guys in the 1940s, 1950s and early 1960s, the conversation was rarely about girls when the guys had been sexually active with other guys.

When I was a college freshman in the spring of 1962, I became a friend of Darrell Byfield, a sophomore. He was a friend of some of my freshman friends and had known one of them not quite as long as me. Darrell and I were room mates for the next two school terms and he was graduated in in May 1964.

I had no idea as to what his sexual orientation was during our days together on campus nor he mine. We both dated women; but, we really did not do much discussing of our dates. If we talked about women, it was because we were with other guys in the dorm who were talking about them.

I happened to be back in Tulsa, Oklahoma in September 1986 when my oldest niece had a son at a local hospital. She was the daughter of my older sister. Since it was going to be a while before I could see her and the baby, I decided to go out to a club for a little while. I went to a gay bar not too far away and while I was there, Darrell walked in. We did talk some but did not have a long conversation since I did not have much time to get back. He did tell me that he was living in a Tulsa suburb.

I did not see Darrell again until the summer of 1993 after I had moved back here from N. Hollywood. I heard his name called when I was at the VA clinic and I assumed that he was working there in an admistrative capacity. I did not see him; but, when I got back to Mom's where I was living, I looked up his name in the local phone book. I called him in the evening and asked if that was him who was paged. Darrell had joined the Air Force after college and I had been a draftee.

We had many conversations about what we were going through in those closeted days. He told me about being attracted to a handsome male student when he was a freshman but didn't act upon it. Oh, we knew some openly gay types on campus but that was as far as it got. Darrell and I had a mutal friend, with whom I had gone to grade school (but not Darrell), and we just believed that Norman married a woman to further his professional career; but, like Ennis and Jack, Norman did take advantage of going to conferences to be with men when not at home.

Oh, one of my fellow art students in the 1960s was married back then; but, he left the closet after his teenage son left it. His ex-wife is very supportive of him and they are both involved in PFLAG (Parents, family and Friends of Lesbians And Gays).

[serious crayons]

But my picture is on the frapper-map....

Where is the frapper map? I've never checked it out.

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

I think Jude has made a good point about, sub-consciously, the boys absorbing ideas from the lack of "girl talk." Yet another interesting angle of this film, so brilliant...

This thread has made me register something I probably should've taken in a few weeks ago. By Ennis indicating he is a virgin, that means, to me, that he is very comfortable around Jack in revealing that bit of information about himself.

Oh, sweetness...

[TJ]

Well, in reference to really conservative Pentecostal mindsets, a person who is smoking cigarettes and drinking alcohol is lying when "I haven't had the opportunity to sin yet." Smoking and drinking are considered sinful acts.

That's what makes it ironic that Ennis is supposed to be a virgin sexually speaking.

[Aussie Chris]

I guess I phrased that a bit confusingly. It's not that they DO engage in girl talk, it's that they DON'T. Actually, it's Jude's observation: he noted that they never talk about girls, as you might expect straight 19-year-old men to do, and he's saying they probably noticed this about each other and got a clue.

Ohhhhh, so girl talk as in "talking about girls" as opposed to "did you see what he was wearing, so 1962"! 

You know it' never really occured to me that there was anything "lacking" in Ennis' behaviour, after all he does mention he's getting married (that would normally do it for me).  I find it much easier to imangine Jack in this context, not mentioning girls, expressionate eyes, stoten glances, tenderness while nursing Ennis' wounds, ...  <sigh>

[j.U.d.E.]

Where is the frapper map? I've never checked it out.

Good question.. I wanted to bump the thread, but I can't find it.. 

Not much time.. Have to work.

~ j U d E