Author Topic: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack  (Read 20889 times)

Offline Brown Eyes

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Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« on: May 03, 2006, 08:40:02 pm »
Tell you what Friends,

The distinctions between our two main characters film vs. book have been coming up a lot lately in various threads.  So, I thought the topic deserved to be teased out into its own conversation.

And, as latjoreme has pointed out in other threads, it seems much more common to focus on the differences between the two versions of Ennis than the different versions of Jack.

I guess one of the most obvious differences between film-Ennis and book-Ennis is that in the book he's much, much better about expressing his affection verbally to Jack.  In the movie, he seems to only overtly express his love physically.  When he does say something romantic in the film, it's often in code... In the movie, "for as long as we can ride it" and "there ain't no reigns on this one" seem to me to be some of his most affectionate verbal moments.  But, they do need to be de-coded into... something like "I want to be with you for as long as possible"  and "my love/passion for you is so strong it makes me feel out of control" etc.  I love that the only reason we even know about the dry-heaves situation for Ennis at the end of the Brokeback summer is because book-Ennis not only tells Jack about it in the motel but he tells him what he thinks it means (that he shouldn't have let Jack out of his sight).

I'll refrain from commenting about the two versions of Jack here.  I'm very curious to hear all your interpretations about that question.

cheers!
« Last Edit: May 04, 2006, 10:04:13 am by atz75 »
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TJ

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2006, 08:48:19 pm »
While there may be a forum created somewhere which discusses Annie Proulx's story only or where the emphasis was on the original story with comparative comments in regard to the Larry McMurtry & Diana Ossane and/or Ang Lee movie, I have yet to see it.

A Major Area in a forum like this one could be "Brokeback mountain - The Book, The Message & Its Impact." I "suggest" that because I have read about the correspondence gays had with Annie Proulx in her interviews and writings about the original short story. 

Offline Rayn

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2006, 01:19:12 am »
Yes atz75, TJ...   

This is a good thread to begin.   And you're right, atz75, about the "two Ennis-es".   I'm remembering too that in the movie Ennis has other ways of displaying his affection and love for Jack.  He often has a sly humor that is really affection.  He says stuff like ~ You're gonna run them sheep off again if you don't quit playin’ that harmonica! ~   I'm paraphrasing here... 

In the movie we can see Ennis's expressions of affection, his sly smile, his sideways glances; Ennis, in both book and movie, is often very subtle:   ~ He laughed a little, You probably deserve it....~   This he said when Jack admitted an affair with a rancher's wife.  In the book there is naturally more description of the characters and the land.  In the movie, we are given images of both and more dialogue. 

The two art forms are so different. 

I remember in the book how different the night before the blow up scene is too.  It says, "Ennis put his arm around Jack, pulled him close."   That is far more convincing that the movie version where when Jack says, "Tell you what, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." and Ennis does nothing.  I always thought that was strange, almost cold on his part. 

So, yes, there are two rather different men in the book for sure.   Two similar but different tales.

Rayn
« Last Edit: May 04, 2006, 01:29:08 am by Rayn »

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2006, 02:30:05 am »
In their final scene together, the book and the movie are quite different.

In the book, as they are getting ready to leave, Jack is already in his own truck when the subject of the next meeting time comes up (and the topic of a warmer place to meet, too) and Ennis finally admits that he cannot make it in August. The location of the vehicles is at a trailhead parking lot, which even though in a remote location, would be a "public" location for the Story-Ennis. That Ennis would still be paranoid that someone might see him touching another guy if they suddenly drove up. The Story-Jack does not even touch Ennis when Ennis has his reaction to what Jack has just said which ended with "I wish I knew how to quit you." As soon as Jack gets out of his truck, Ennis is straightened up as though nothing had happened.

I really don't think the Story-Ennis would hit his Jack when he was angry.

Even what appeared to be a fight scene up on Brokeback Mountain was merely their horseplay rough-housing and the guys got blood from Ennis's nose all over their shirts. We don't really know how that happened in the book until after the demise of Jack when Ennis discovers the shirts together like two skins in Jack's closet.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2006, 09:10:36 am »
Good idea for a thread! I need to come back to this later, either at lunch or at home this evening (I'm at work now).

Interesting, isn't it, that it seems more common to discuss the differences in Ennis? Maybe because it's possible to see the story as being essentially from Ennis's view point? Or simply because Ennis is the one left alive at the end?

I do want to come back and discuss Jack, however. I like "Movie Jack" a lot more--and not just because he's played by Jake Gyllenhaal!  ;)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2006, 03:28:21 pm »
where when Jack says, "Tell you what, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." and Ennis does nothing.  I always thought that was strange, almost cold on his part. 

That has always bothered me, too. But others have suggested it's because he feels guilty, knowing that he has to tell Jack he won't be back til November. He does look grim, rather than indifferent or incommunicative. Still, I wasn't sure until I watched the final argument/quit you scene today. Now I'm pretty convinced -- he looks so nervous before breaking the news and waits until literally the last possible moment, as Jack is climbing into his truck. Obviously he has been dreading it. And rightly so!

But getting back on topic, Movie Ennis is far less verbally affectionate. But in some ways, he's more in touch with his feelings than Story Ennis. For example, why would it take SE a YEAR after leaving Brokeback to figure out why he puked? Did he really think it was bad food, or was that just a colorful turn of phrase? In any case, ME may not be able to describe his feelings very articulately, and certainly would never reveal them to Jack, but I think he has at least a general idea of what they are, right there in the alley.

Another difference: Story Ennis seems much less internally homophobic.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2006, 03:42:57 pm »
Katherine,

Quote
Another difference: Story Ennis seems much less internally homophobic.

At least we agree on this one!  ;)

This point came up in discussion a long time ago back at IMDb. It was suggested--not by me, though I agreed with it--that Story Ennis is more constrained by concerns or fears about society's reaction to an open relationship with Jack, whereas Movie Ennis seems more constrained by his own internalized homophobia--literally his own fear of being gay.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2006, 03:57:29 pm »
This point came up in discussion a long time ago back at IMDb. It was suggested--not by me, though I agreed with it--that Story Ennis is more constrained by concerns or fears about society's reaction to an open relationship with Jack, whereas Movie Ennis seems more constrained by his own internalized homophobia--literally his own fear of being gay.

I don't know who wrote the post you're referring to, but I have said that before, myself. Story Ennis' fears seem confined mainly to practical concern about the danger. With Movie Ennis, that's just the tip of the iceberg.

In that respect, ME seems like a more fully realized character. Because, as starboardlight and maybe others have pointed out, growing up gay with a father whom you believe is at least hypothetically capable of tortuing someone to death for being gay could really mess you up.



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2006, 07:09:58 pm »
Katherine,

Quote
In that respect, ME seems like a more fully realized character. Because, as starboardlight and maybe others have pointed out, growing up gay with a father whom you believe is at least hypothetically capable of tortuing someone to death for being gay could really mess you up.

Not disagreeing here, just making sure I understand your point. Considering that Story Ennis and Movie Ennis "had the same father," are you suggesting that Story Ennis doesn't seem "messed up enough," or, at least, "as messed up," so to speak, in comparison to his movie incarnation?

Jeff
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2006, 07:28:14 pm »
Considering that Story Ennis and Movie Ennis "had the same father," are you suggesting that Story Ennis doesn't seem "messed up enough," or, at least, "as messed up," so to speak, in comparison to his movie incarnation?

Yes. Story Ennis, at least in comparison to Movie Ennis, seems to be making a calculated and rational decision: better not move in with Jack, because two men living together might get attacked. Movie Ennis is afraid of that, too. But that's only part of his problem.

Though story Ennis' fears lead to much unhappiness, they are actually well-founded, based on his childhood experience, Jack's eventual possible fate, and what we all know in real life. If anything, he's just being too rational for his own good. But in that respect, he doesn't seem particularly messed up.

« Last Edit: May 04, 2006, 07:46:57 pm by latjoreme »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2006, 02:05:35 pm »
OK, here's one. Both Movie Ennis and Movie Jack are far more handsome than their story counterparts. In that sense, the story is more realistic; chances seem pretty slim that two randomly selected cowboys would both be that hot. The descriptions in the story sound a lot more like real-life cowboys would probably look.

Anybody here wish the movie had been more faithful to the story in that respect?

Also, the movie versions are also much less colloquial in their speech. Which is fine with me. The colloquialisms of the story are colorful and well-written and evoke a sense of place, but to me they are also a bit distancing.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2006, 07:31:13 pm »
Heya Katherine and Jeff,
It's fun watching you two have conversations sometimes.  :D

I've just been waiting for someone to bring up the glamour-factor in the book vs. film difference. 

I think it's definitely clear that the filmmakers made a conscious decision to make both characters more appealing (physically in terms of casting, but also in terms of mannerisms, etc.).  I think this is particularly true of Jack.  I don't remember where the interview is, but I recall reading Proulx talk about how she really likes Jake's depiction of Jack but that she sees the film character as really quite significantly different.  I remember she thought of film-Jack as being like "quicksilver."  I don't quite know what that means, but I like it. 

I think that through casting Jake the filmmakers definitely wanted to make Jack more conventionally attractive, but I'm glad they conveyed some of his "average-ness" through keeping his awkwardness (it's interesting how Jake makes this "awkwardness" simultaneously endearing and charming) as part of his character.  I like in the DVD special feature how Jake describes his understanding of Jack as a person who's "really trying" that the act of "trying" hard is just part of Jack. 

Personally, I'm glad I saw the movie before I read the story.  One thing I find strange when I read the story even now is that I don't at all feel the same level of emotional connection with the written characters.  I love Annie's writing and phrasing, etc.  But, I've never felt as connected to story-Ennis or Jack.
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2006, 07:36:52 pm »
OK, here's one. Both Movie Ennis and Movie Jack are far more handsome than their story counterparts. In that sense, the story is more realistic; chances seem pretty slim that two randomly selected cowboys would both be that hot. The descriptions in the story sound a lot more like real-life cowboys would probably look.

Anybody here wish the movie had been more faithful to the story in that respect?

Not particularly. ...  ;)

But this point does remind me of something I don't understand. I've read somewhere that Annie Proulx has said that in her own vision, Jack is "homely," yet her description in the story doesn't strike me as particularly unattractive. He has curly hair, and he smiles a lot. She says his buckteeth are noticeable but, in my opinion, sort of undercuts herself by saying they aren't big enough that he could eat popcorn out of the neck of a jug (I know someone with buckteeth who probably could!). Apparently he's a little broad in the, er, thighs, but so what? And he has an outgoing personality. I've never had any trouble believing that a lonely kid like Ennis could fall--hard--for an outgoing guy like Jack.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2006, 07:46:07 pm »
Heya Katherine and Jeff,
It's fun watching you two have conversations sometimes.  :D

Thanks. I think. ...

Quote
I've just been waiting for someone to bring up the glamour-factor in the book vs. film difference. 

I think it's definitely clear that the filmmakers made a conscious decision to make both characters more appealing (physically in terms of casting, but also in terms of mannerisms, etc.).  I think this is particularly true of Jack.  I don't remember where the interview is, but I recall reading Proulx talk about how she really likes Jake's depiction of Jack but that she sees the film character as really quite significantly different.  I remember she thought of film-Jack as being like "quicksilver."  I don't quite know what that means, but I like it. 

I don't really understand what she means by "quicksilver," either. Since I know that "quicksilver" is an antiquated name for "mercury," I tend to think of "quicksilver" as meaning "mercurial," which I associate with "changeable," which, to me, isn't necessarily a good thing, though it can be.

Quote
I think that through casting Jake the filmmakers definitely wanted to make Jack more conventionally attractive, but I'm glad they conveyed some of his "average-ness" through keeping his awkwardness (it's interesting how Jake makes this "awkwardness" simultaneously endearing and charming) as part of his character.  I like in the DVD special feature how Jake describes his understanding of Jack as a person who's "really trying" that the act of "trying" hard is just part of Jack. 

Personally, I'm glad I saw the movie before I read the story.  One thing I find strange when I read the story even now is that I don't at all feel the same level of emotional connection with the written characters.  I love Annie's writing and phrasing, etc.  But, I've never felt as connected to story-Ennis or Jack.

Interesting. I've known the story well since it's original New Yorker publication, so there was no way I could avoid seeing the film "uncontaminated." Actually, I think I must confess I do feel more connected to Story Ennis. (At least he talks more!) Story Jack, on the ther other hand, is the type of person who makes me suspicious when I meet them in real life--people who smile a little bit too much, talk a little bit too much. They make me wonder what they're up to.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2006, 07:53:18 pm »
I just thought of "quicksilver" as evoking something along the lines of "high-spirited" or "energetic".  Well, one of my favorite things about Annie's use of language (and this certainly does get translated into the movie) is her ability to be enigmatic.
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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2006, 10:29:08 pm »
Some of the farmboys/farmers, ranchers/ranchboys and cowboys with whom I enjoyed being with actually looked they were put together like Frankenstein did to create his human-parts monster.

Annie Proulx's Jack Twist was not exactly handsome nor was he ugly. Her Ennis Del Mar was not handsome at all. But, I have seen and loved all the way to their hearts guys who fit her descriptions of her ranch boys.

Offline JfT

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2006, 10:57:14 pm »
According to Webster's Universal College Dict., quicksilver(3) means "unpredictably changeable."

Jack quicksilver?  I thought Jack was more endearingly predictable, as opposed to Ennis , whom at times could surprise.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2006, 12:07:13 am »
Jack quicksilver?  I thought Jack was more endearingly predictable, as opposed to Ennis , whom at times could surprise.

Hi JfT, I agree with this reading. Darn, I'm going to have to search around for that Proulx interview.  I don't think she was implying anything *negative* about film-Ennis.
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2006, 12:16:29 am »
OK, here's Proulx's quotation... It's from an interview with the Advocate back in December.  Here's the link http://www.advocate.com/news_detail.asp?id=23486  if anyone's interested.


"AP: What did you think of the performances by Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal?

Proulx: I thought they were magnificent, both of them. Jake Gyllenhaal's Jack Twist...wasn't the Jack Twist that I had in mind when I wrote this story. The Jack that I saw was jumpier, homely. But Gyllenhaal's sensitivity and subtleness in this role is just huge. The scenes he's in have a kind of quicksilver feel to them. Heath Ledger is just almost really beyond description as far as I'm concerned. He got inside the story more deeply than I did. All that thinking about the character of Ennis that was so hard for me to get, Ledger just was there. He did indeed move inside the skin of the character, not just in the shirt but inside the person. It was remarkable."

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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2006, 12:23:51 am »
Hi JfT, I agree with this reading. Darn, I'm going to have to search around for that Proulx interview.  I don't think she was implying anything *negative* about film-Ennis.

I found the "quicksilver" quote.

It apparently comes from an interview Annie Proulx gave to Sandy Cohen of the Associated Press. A couple of months ago I found it on line at Advocate.com and printed a hard copy for my Brokeback file. I have that hard copy in front of me now:

[Interviewer] What did you think of the performances by Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal?

[Annie Proulx] I thought they were magnificient, both of them. Jake Gyllenhaal's Jack Twist wasn't the Jack Twist I had in mind when I wrote the story. The Jack that I saw was jumpier, homely. But Gyllenhaal's sensitivity and subtleness in this role is just huge. The scene's he's in have a kind of quicksilver feel to them. Heath Ledger is just almost really beyond description as far as I'm concerned. He got inside the story more deeply than I did. All that thinking about the character of Ennis that was so hard for me to get, Ledger just was there. He did indeed move inside the skin of the character, not just inside the shirt but inside the person. It was remarkable.

So my memory stands corrected. She applied the "quicksilver" analogy to Jake's scenes, rather than specifically to Jake.

But I can't forebear adding that it's always made me extremely happy that the creator of Ennis and Jack is so pleased with Heath and Jake's portrayals. The comment that Heath got more deeply inside the story than did Annie Proulx herself is truly remarkable.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

TJ

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2006, 12:38:27 am »
"Quicksilver" is mercury, which is a liquid metallic element. "Quicksilver" is also used as a verb meaning to "coat (mirror glass) with an amalgam of tin." Real silver has been used as mirrors, too.

When I was a kid, we had fun playing with quicksilver, holding the liquid in our hands, and sometimes we got to play with little toys where the quicksilver moved around inside where the plastic was clear. Quicksilver seeks its own level like water does flowing down hill.

When I read all of the things Annie Proulx wrote or said in interviews about her characters and how difficult it was for her to get them exactly right to her own satisfaction, I think that she did the best she could for the reader and that is certainly okay with me.

TJ

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2006, 12:49:39 am »
Heath Ledger was not "Heath Ledger" in his role as Ennis Del Mar. And, IMO, he did a good job of interpreting the role.

Jake Gyllenhaal, in real life interviews on talk shows, seems to have a certain innocence which a Jack Twist would also have.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2006, 01:06:35 am »
LOL, Hey Jeff.  I think we were probably googling that Proulx quote at the same time.

Yup, I love that Proulx was so happy with the movie too.
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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2006, 04:55:06 am »
Proulx: " He got inside the story more deeply than I did. All that thinking about the character of Ennis that was so hard for me to get, Ledger just was there. "


Kind of refreshing for a writer of AP's stature to say that.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #24 on: May 06, 2006, 10:43:11 am »
LOL, Hey Jeff.  I think we were probably googling that Proulx quote at the same time.

Yup, I love that Proulx was so happy with the movie too.

Great minds, eh, what? 

You were Googling while I was rifling through a VERY LARGE pile of hard-copy print-outs. ...  :D
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #25 on: May 06, 2006, 12:22:08 pm »
Personally, I'm glad I saw the movie before I read the story.  One thing I find strange when I read the story even now is that I don't at all feel the same level of emotional connection with the written characters.  I love Annie's writing and phrasing, etc.  But, I've never felt as connected to story-Ennis or Jack.

Me neither, though I read the story first. My reaction was, Wow, good story. I was amazed by the writing, and of course I found it sad. But I wasn't particularly emotionally affected by it. I know my response is far from universal -- that many people love them both or even prefer the story -- but I've always wondered why I responded so differently to the two. Usually, if anything I prefer the written version.

The best I can come up with is that I have a harder time identifying with the story characters. As I mentioned before, I find the colorful grammar and colloquialisms distancing and a bit kitschy -- to me, they make Story Jack and Ennis seem too much like "characters" and less like real people. Whereas Movie Jack and Ennis virtually ARE real people. Also, their movie personalities are much more vivid and specific. The story characters seem to me much closer to interchangable -- I don't sense the deep psychological complexity and individuality that I do in the movie versions.

Oh, and one more factor: Proulx's scrupulous avoidance of sentimentality. I don't like sentimentality myself, and we've talked about how restrained and low-key and unsentimental the movie is. In fact, that's what I love about it; it is never the least bit maudlin or sappy. But it's not quite as austere as the story, and I think that helps me connect to it.

But that's just me. Obviously a lot of people -- the filmmakers, people at BetterMost -- were able to find things in the story that eluded me.




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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #26 on: May 06, 2006, 01:32:30 pm »
I created a new discussion thread sort of related to what is in the discussion here but, with the emphasis on the published in book form of the story. I even created a poll to go with it.

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1225.0

It is called The Book (original AP complete short story), The Message & Its Impact.

It is rather difficult for some of us who have read the complete short story and have seen the movie and liked them as stand-alone works of art. But, then again, some of us, me included, see some important differences betwen the two of them. 

TJ

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #27 on: May 06, 2006, 01:51:57 pm »
When I read and re-read Annie Proulx's story, I am reminded of the way that many Native American oral tradition stories are told to listeners.

They usually begin with words to this effect, "Now this is the way that it was told to me." It is almost like a person who knew Ennis Del Mar or even an Ennis told her the story and that is why even in the narrative, the expressions are like a native born Wyoming person wrote them.

She did admit that she is not gay and, in words to this effect, wrote it from a POV of a straight woman trying to figure out a man suffering from internalized homophobia.

Oh, I use "in words to this effect," because I heard and even typed them hundreds of time when I was a senior-clerk typist for lawyers in the US Army when I was in Vietnam and working in the HQ Staff Judge Advocate (SJA) Section office. "Words to this (that) effect" means what was said on the witness stand was an indirect quote or interpretation of what was actually said. In the US Military court system, "words to this effect" were treated as though they were exact quotes of what was actually said.

Indirect threats were also considered equal to direct threats when talked about in a court-martial.

Ennis indirectly threatened to kill Jack (or at leasted seemed to be one) by what he said to Jack at their last time together. He did not say that he would kill Jack; but, Jack treated what Ennis said as direct threat instead.

Ennis did not say, "Jack, if I find out that you are having sex with other guys, I will kill you." I think he meant, "If I find out that you have been having sex with other guys, it will probably after someone else has killed your for being queer. And that's why I am afraid for you."

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #28 on: May 06, 2006, 04:36:44 pm »
Quote
I am reminded of the way that many Native American oral tradition stories are told to listeners.

Tell you what, TJ, it was interesting to read this comment of yours. While I'm not familiar with Native American oral tradition stories, a long time ago in a post back at IMDb I had mentioned that when I read the story, I have the feeling of listening to a story being told to me.

At the risk of reopening an old debate, this also plays into why I believe Jack was murdered rather than died in a tragic accident. I once wrote that I felt the story had a "mythic" quality to it, and the way the story was structured, and this "as told" feeling that I get when I read it, make me feel that it's almost required that Jack die by tire iron, just as Ennis imagines and always feared, just as the rancher that Ennis's father forced him to see.

But note that I say this being fully aware that Annie Proulx was deliberately ambiguous--she doesn't tell us definitely one way or the other, and neither does Ang Lee. Perhaps this is just the way I complete the story for myself.
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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #29 on: May 06, 2006, 04:59:35 pm »
But note that I say this being fully aware that Annie Proulx was deliberately ambiguous--she doesn't tell us definitely one way or the other, and neither does Ang Lee. Perhaps this is just the way I complete the story for myself.

Because of what seems to have been Annie Proulx using an extraordinary writing style for Brokeback Mountain that seems to be somewhat different from what I have perused in her other works, skimming through them, her being deliberatly ambiguous to what really happened to Jack makes me think that he might never have been in any accident or even gay bashed and murdered.

(IMO) Ang Lee said, in words to this effect, "Everything that Lureen Twist told Ennis Del Mar on the phone was a lie."

While nothing was mentioned about the death of her father in the movie, the screenplay writers and the movie transferred some of Lureen's in-the-book personality to her father. The only known farm and equipment company boss that the book's Jack Twist worked for was Lureen herself. In the book, until the death of her old man, they got no financial assistance from him whatsoever.

I don't think Jack would have even married her if her father had not owned that company. From what Jack said in the reunion scene in the motel room about his father-in-law and what he said later about nothing going the way that he planned it, I get the impression that Jack had hoped her father and company would sponsor him as rodeo bull rider. Jack figured that if he "married money," he could get everything he needed to be a real rodeo cowboy.

In the movie, on September 24, 1967 Jack arrives in Riverton, Wyoming in a brand-new two-toned pickup truck; but, in the book, he is still driving the old green pickup on June 24, 1967 when he pulls in to park near the laundry below the apartment.

Offline welliwont

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2006, 04:33:05 am »

 ......when Jack says, "Tell you what, sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it." and Ennis does nothing.  I always thought that was strange, almost cold on his part.
 

Hi Rayn:

I am posting this very long post in reply to what you said.  I, like you, was very put off by the fact that Ennis did not even deign to reply to Jack when he bared his wounded heart.  It seems that there was an earlier version of the screenplay where Ennis did not stay silent after Jack's heartfelt admission.

Here is my post from IMDb:

Quote
Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it   

I just went to check out e-Bay and I came across the following, I think it is interesting, it sure would have made a difference if Ennis had responded after Jack said the line above, intead of just dead silence.

brokeback mountain shooting script screenplay April 04

This rare shooting script is a reprint of a master copy of an April 04 revision of brokeback mountain. On the front page dated "31 March 2004 Draft, Revisions 7 April 2004". This is one of the earlist version which is different than the "Story to Screenplay" that you can get from the store. IT ALSO CONTAINS LINES AND SENCES WHICH WERE EITHER NEVER SHOT, OR DELITED OUT OF THE FINAL VERSION.

For example, when Ennis says "You know I ain't queer." and Jack replies "Me neither." In this shooting script Jack replies "WHO SAID YOU WAS?

Another example, in the film Ennis says nothing after Jack says "Tell you what, truth is, I miss you so much sometimes" but in this script, Ennis replies "I KNOW THE FEELING".

Some other differences include the order of the shirts hanging in Ennis's closet is reversed in this shooting script. The final shot of the film is different in this shooting script. During the tent scene in which Jack and Ennis get intimate, the camera pulls out of the tent and the viewer gets to look at the landscape while they listen to Jack and Ennis making love, when they're finished, the camera goes back inside the tent and the audience sees them falling asleep. This shooting script also include the extensive sence, which according to Heath Ledger that was wasted a week of shooting time and was completely cut out from the version you've seen in theatres. THIS IS THE SCENCE WHERE JACK AND ENNIS RESCUING A GROOUP OF PEOPLE FROM A VAN WHICH DRIVES INTO A RIVER (pg. #105). There are more differences lines/scences from this script than the film. This shooting script is 113 pages and printed on one side. Measures 8 1/2 x 11 1/2 inch on white paper.Winner pays $15 shipping /handing in USA and Canada only. International will be $25US. I accept paypal, international money order or cash only and no bidder with negative feedback please. Thank you and happy bidding.

Here is the link if you want to look at it yourselves:

http://cgi.ebay.com/brokeback-mountain-shooting-script-screenplay-April-04_W0QQitemZ7618771452QQcategoryZ18833QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2006, 08:15:34 am »
Wow, J, interesting. I guess I would have liked to see the "I know the feeling" in there, because I am also saddened by Ennis not responding to Jack's touching admission.

But the rest of the stuff on that screeenplay, I'm glad they didn't do.

Offline Rayn

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #32 on: May 15, 2006, 10:03:35 am »
That has always bothered me, too. But others have suggested it's because he feels guilty, knowing that he has to tell Jack he won't be back til November. He does look grim, rather than indifferent or incommunicative. Still, I wasn't sure until I watched the final argument/quit you scene today. Now I'm pretty convinced -- he looks so nervous before breaking the news and waits until literally the last possible moment, as Jack is climbing into his truck. Obviously he has been dreading it. And rightly so!



Another difference: Story Ennis seems much less internally homophobic.


Hmmm good point on the guilt and nervousness in Ennis the night before.. yeah.   And I too think you're right on about Story Ennis... Thanks,

Rayn

Offline starboardlight

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #33 on: May 15, 2006, 02:26:07 pm »
OK, here's one. Both Movie Ennis and Movie Jack are far more handsome than their story counterparts. In that sense, the story is more realistic; chances seem pretty slim that two randomly selected cowboys would both be that hot. The descriptions in the story sound a lot more like real-life cowboys would probably look.

Anybody here wish the movie had been more faithful to the story in that respect?

Also, the movie versions are also much less colloquial in their speech. Which is fine with me. The colloquialisms of the story are colorful and well-written and evoke a sense of place, but to me they are also a bit distancing.

i am curious to see how it would work out. I think of Beautiful Thing, where the two boys, though beautiful in their ways, are not "hot" in the conventional sense. Yet the audience still fell in love with the two characters. I do think that Ang Lee could have pulled it off with two less handsome actors, if they were as talented.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2006, 02:40:17 pm by starboardlight »
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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #34 on: May 15, 2006, 02:45:52 pm »
If you wish to discuss the importance of Annie Proulx's Jack Twist and Ennis Del Mar and her original short story and its impact on gays and lesbians BEFORE the movie was made, go to this link: http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php?topic=1225.0

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #35 on: May 15, 2006, 03:12:05 pm »
i am curious to see how it would work out. I think of Beautiful Thing, where the two boys, though beautiful in their ways, are not "hot" in the conventional sense. Yet the audience still fell in love with the two characters. I do think that Ang Lee could have pulled it off with two less handsome actors, if they were as talented.

I had a friend visit yesterday and he looks a whole lot like Annie Proulx described Ennis Del Mar in her original short story. Ron is not handsome at all and he does have an arched nose. He is 6' 3" tall.

I am only 5' 5" tall and I am actually built more like Ms. Proulx described Jack Twist.

Ron had not seen Brokeback Mountain before and we watched it together on my main entertainment center setup yesterday.

I have the leg length of the "average" person who is more like 4' 11" tall. If Ron and I are sitting on the same level surface, I appear to be at least a couple of inches taller than him. He has noticed that, too.

We were discussing how tall Annie Proulx wrote that Jack was and the fact that he was bull rider. Ron said, "Most professional bull riders are about an average of 5' 6" tall."

I told him that I have the documented statistics of the riders who are with the Professional Bull Riders rodeo outfit and what he said is definitely true. I have that information because I am a member of PBR's official fan club, "Team PBR," and I get a regular subscription to the PBR magazine.

I wouldn't know if Ron has any acting ability; but, I do have some amateur theatrical experience and I was a non-speaking extra in two scenes of the TV mega-mini-series,"War and Remembrance." I was a civilian war correspondent.

Offline nakymaton

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2006, 11:39:40 pm »
Katherine, I think I've got to apologize to you.

So I've been arguing up and down that, while I think that Jack's pretty different in the story and the movie, that Ennis is essentially the same character.

But as I was trying to argue that the story's emotional distance was a way of developing the character, I realized I was wrong about Ennis. In the story, I still think Ennis is disconnected from his feelings, even though he talks about wringing it out and shouldn't a let you out a my sights and stuff like that.

But in the movie... you know, what got me thinking was all those times that we see tears in Ennis's eyes. That doesn't look like a guy who's out of touch with his feelings. Ennis looks like a guy who feels too much, and whose feelings conflict with one another so much that it just hurts. A lot.

So, anyway. Sorry about arguing with you about it.
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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #37 on: July 11, 2006, 01:08:25 am »
Thanks, Mel, although don't think I was secretly seething about that or anything. I think you're right, though. In fact, I believe Movie Ennis is very much aware of his feelings, even though they're often mixed up and he may not always respond to them appropriately and is usually trying desperately to hide them.

One of the best examples is the alley puking scene. Story Ennis claims (and this makes so little sense I wonder if we're even supposed to think he means it) that it took him a year to figure out why. I think Movie Ennis knew why from the get-go. OK, so it may have been a confusing jumble of conflicting feelings that he might not have fully sorted out at the time. But at least he knows approximately what it's about, and it's sure as hell not bad food at the diner.

Offline jpwagoneer1964

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #38 on: July 11, 2006, 02:31:05 am »
Wow, J, interesting. I guess I would have liked to see the "I know the feeling" in there, because I am also saddened by Ennis not responding to Jack's touching admission.

But the rest of the stuff on that screeenplay, I'm glad they didn't do.
.
Remember the very next scene is in the tent asleep With Ennis's arm around Jack.Very significant I think that makes up for any lack of words on Ennis's part
« Last Edit: July 12, 2006, 12:38:40 am by jpwagoneer1964 »
Thank you Heath and Jake for showing us Ennis and Jack,  teaching us how much they loved one another.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #39 on: July 11, 2006, 09:19:32 pm »
Remember the very next scene is in the tent asleep With Ennis's arm atound Jack.Very significant I think that makes up for any lack of words on Ennis's part

I agree that the display of quiet, physical intimacy is lovely here.  I also love that the image of Ennis with his arm over Jack like that mirrors the very first moment when Jack pulls Ennis's arm over him in TS1.  This time though, Ennis is happy to leave his arm there all night and he probably initiated the hug himself.

But, I think there's a difference here between the physical love that Ennis is showing here and Jack's verbal admission.  While the evidence here of their love making is great, it's what's expected.  That's why they're there... they have sex all the time and have been doing so for 20 years.  And, they would have had sex/ cuddled, etc. whether or not Jack had said what he said.  Not to diminish the importance of this continuing aspect of their relationship, of course.  But, Jack's verbal "I miss you so much" is something new.  He's going out on a limb...   He's almost saying "I love you."  The kind of statements that I think Jack is almost desparate to hear from Ennis. Having sex with Jack was "going out on a limb" for Ennis in '63, but now it's par for the course for both of them.  So, I'm glad there's the cut from Jack's comment to the sweet tent scene... but it still leaves Jack hanging a bit in terms of emotional reassurance.  But, to give Ennis lots of credit... He really only is shown expressing his love/emotions physically in the film... so this visual/ physical indication of his love is definitely within his character (as it is shown in the fim... and the story too I guess).
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Film-Ennis vs. Story-Ennis and Film-Jack vs. Story-Jack
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2007, 12:58:52 am »
Just Bumping!
 ;D
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