eye contact

[serious crayons]

(I don't understand where low self-esteem comes from, though, so I hesistate to speculate about the reasons for it.)

You're right. I'm sure it's complex. Genetics probably plays a role. But Ennis DID have an unusually horrifying childhood, which I bet is a risk factor.

And associated with low self-esteem -- it struck me, during the last scene with Cassie, that Ennis either doesn't understand how people can love him, or doesn't realize that they do, or doesn't think that they should. When he says "I probably wasn't much fun anyways," that seems like the subtext. (Not, unfortunately, "You're better off without me because I'm in love with a man." Instead, it seems like he's saying "You're better off without me because other men are more fun/more loveable/more worthy of love than I am."

I alwys interpreted that line as, "I probably wasn't much fun anyways because I was in love with someone else." Maybe because I read this whole scene as Ennis sitting there alone and feeling really depressed about Jack.

There's been really interesting discussion on one of the other threads about whether Ennis knew he was in love with Jack. But I wonder, did Ennis understand that Jack was in love with him?

I vote yes. Though not as much as he understands by the end.

[Brown Eyes]

There's been really interesting discussion on one of the other threads about whether Ennis knew he was in love with Jack. But I wonder, did Ennis understand that Jack was in

Ooo, Ooo, good question!  Good thread in general.  I think we all dwell a lot on the problem of Ennis having never said "I love you" (largely due to interpretations re: "I swear..."), but we rarely worry about the fact that Jack never said it either.  To me Jack just wears his heart on his sleeve.  His expressions of emotion seem to be the opposite (the ying and yang here) to Ennis's reserve.  I think due to the fact that Jack made the initial first move and due to his cow and calf operation proposal, Ennis probably would have litte doubt about Jack's love.  He knows that Jack is ready to divorce Lureen and leave Texas at a moment's notice.  It only took one postcard for Jack to drive all that way in the post-divorce scene.  I think that if Ennis had asked Jack to stay with him right then, there's no question that Jack would have.  But, I do think it's the shirts that make Ennis "aware too late of how greatly he was loved, of the extent of his loss" (as that beautiful Mendelsohn review says).

On the eye contact question... It's a good point that Ennis does make eye contact directly a lot more often than one might expect when you think about it.  My favorite moment is the "I haven't yet had the opportunity" eye contact combined with the little up tick of music.  Ennis's little signal here seems pretty clear, if slightly awkward.  I think Ennis needs to warm up to the idea of eye contact during this first summer though.  We talk a lot about Jack "teaching" Ennis things about intimacy (like the gesture of caressing the face, etc.) and maybe the eye contact issue is another example.  In the first few minutes of the movie, clearly Ennis has no interest in eye contact while Jack does. This may have lots to do with the "politics" of checking each other out undetected though.  Ennis doesn't even really want to look at Jack when they shake hands the first time and introduce themselves outside of Aguirre's trailer.  The big eye contact "breakthrough" moment seems to be the "friend, those are the most words you spoke in the past two weeks" conversation.  Ennis notices Jack gazing at him and resists the urge to look away.  Ennis's little "what?" is a response not to anything verbal from Jack, but is a reply to his eye contact.  I love that in the 2nd tent scene Ennis can't stop himself from looking in Jack's eyes... he keeps trying to look away, but Jack's like a magnet.  Oh, man.  I could go on and on with this topic.
 

On the low self esteem issue... I agree with latjoreme (no surprise) that all the "hard" circumstances of his background and his fear of society probably do add up to something like what we'd consider low self esteem (whether we're using this term in the most clinically accurate way or not).  I've always wondered whether, on some deep level, Ennis's question "what are you doing?" in the first tent scene has something to do with Ennis not being able to believe that this is happening to him.  In other words, perhaps some level of "low self esteem" makes it hard for him to grasp that someone could find him so attractive, lovable.

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

I think Jack's friendly attention boosted his self-confidence.

Jack, on the other hand, looks away with an impassive face when he's making an important declaration and is nervous about how Ennis is going to react. It's like he's holding his breath.

I love both of these points, especially the first one.

[serious crayons]

We talk a lot about Jack "teaching" Ennis things about intimacy (like the gesture of caressing the face, etc.) and maybe the eye contact issue is another example.  In the first few minutes of the movie, clearly Ennis has no interest in eye contact while Jack does. This may have lots to do with the "politics" of checking each other out undetected though.  Ennis doesn't even really want to look at Jack when they shake hands the first time and introduce themselves outside of Aguirre's trailer.  The big eye contact "breakthrough" moment seems to be the "friend, those are the most words you spoke in the past two weeks" conversation.  Ennis notices Jack gazing at him and resists the urge to look away.  Ennis's little "what?" is a response not to anything verbal from Jack, but is a reply to his eye contact.  I love that in the 2nd tent scene Ennis can't stop himself from looking in Jack's eyes... he keeps trying to look away, but Jack's like a magnat.  Oh, man.  I could go on and on with this topic.
 

Please do! These are all good points. The contrast between the Ennis outside Aguirre's trailer and in the bar, and the Ennis of a month or so later is SO vivid. Good observation that the "what" scene is a turning point. You're right, the very fact that he DOESN'T look away, just holds Jack's gaze for those long moments, is one thing that makes that scene so mesmerizing. And like someone said earlier -- maybe you, Amanda? -- when I listed that one among Ennis' smiles, it's not quite a smile, he's still practicing. So talking, semi-smiling and making eye contact -- all in the space of two weeks! Shows how big a difference Jack's friendship makes.

  In other words, perhaps some level of "low self esteem" makes it hard for him to grasp that someone could find him so attractive, lovable.

If only he could just get on the internet! A visit to BetterMost would boost that self-esteem in a hurry.

[Meryl]

Very good discussion about eye contact.  It's interesting, too, not just from the characters' viewpoints but because of what it says about the actors' and director's choices.

One thing that strikes me is that in the scenes where Ennis and Jack are actually discussing their relationship rather than just acting on their affection for one another, there is always an eye contact issue.  In the "one shot thing" conversation, Ang shoots Heath over his shoulder so that only the right side of his face is seen as he talks to Jack.  When they say goodbye in Signal, Ennis shoots glances at Jack as he squints into the light, but he never really sustains the eye contact.  In the motel, Ang chooses to position them so that they never have eye contact.  In the camping scene after the reunion, too, Ennis rarely looks at Jack as he explains why they can't live together.  After the divorce, though Ennis does look at Jack piercingly at times, he often looks down or away.  In the scene at the lake, Ennis avoids eye contact pretty much until he decides to confront Jack about Mexico.  After that, the eye contact is finally full on for both of them until Ennis turns away to cry.   As for Jack, in all of the aforementioned scenes, he is usually seen looking directly at Ennis for the most part.   Even though there are a few times Jack looks away as he speaks to Ennis, in general he is the more direct of the two, always seeking to make contact, or at least to gauge Ennis's feeling.

This may be a topic for another thread, but for the most part Ennis owns screen left and Jack owns screen right when they are shot together.  Exceptions are the handshake outside the trailer, the campfire scenes before Ennis switches jobs with Jack, the second tent scene, the introduction of Jack to Alma, and the beginning of the lake scene.  Even in their individual scenes with other characters, Ennis is often on the left and Jack on the right.  Could Ang have had a reason for this?  Left and right can symbolize passive/active, malign/benign, emotional/practical, hidden/open.   Perhaps something like that was at work here.

[serious crayons]

Interesting theory, meryl!

I just watched that "quit you" scene today and was scrutinizing Ennis' behavior for clues as to whether his distress in this scene is because a) Jack's Mexico revelation forces him to confront his and Jack's sexuality, OR b) he fears he's losing Jack (or c) some combination of the two).

When pleading with Jack to lighten up, Ennis is looking at Jack, still pretty upbeat. Then Jack says "I did, once," (that ominous past tense) and Ennis storms up to him -- fierce eye contact -- and issues the threat about Mexico. Jack, glaring right back at him, launches into his angry monologue. As soon as Jack starts talking, we see Ennis frown, as if he's starting to cry already, then turn his back, bowing his head very low. He remains turned away like that, then disappears from the frame until Jack's done talking. Then the camera swings around and he looks up,  crying and (music starts up) says "why don't you, then?"

I'm not sure why I'm going into all this detail here, except to say that I don't see this as the behavior of a man upset at confronting his sexuality. Aside from the possibly homophobic Mexico threat, Ennis seems distraught at what is happening in their relationship and the emotional toll it is taking and his frustration over feeling he can neither fix it nor stand it. And I think his eye contact -- especially his avoidance of it while Jack is talking -- gives an important clue as to how to read the scene. (Though admittedly, this was also my opinon BEFORE I did the research, and I suppose people with the opposite opinion might read the same clues differently.)

[nakymaton]

One thing that strikes me is that in the scenes where Ennis and Jack are actually discussing their relationship rather than just acting on their affection for one another, there is always an eye contact issue.

Maybe that's what I was trying to figure out? Yes, you're right.

This may be a topic for another thread, but for the most part Ennis owns screen left and Jack owns screen right when they are shot together.  Exceptions are the handshake outside the trailer, the campfire scenes before Ennis switches jobs with Jack, the second tent scene, the introduction of Jack to Alma, and the beginning of the lake scene.  Even in their individual scenes with other characters, Ennis is often on the left and Jack on the right.  Could Ang have had a reason for this?  Left and right can symbolize passive/active, malign/benign, emotional/practical, hidden/open.   Perhaps something like that was at work here.

Oh, wow. Damn. I have to watch the movie again now.

And to Amanda, about whether Ennis knows that Jack loves him... I agree, Ennis should have known. All the evidence is there. But... I don't know. I mean, it seems like love is one thing that most people tend to be really irrational about, even if they're rational about everything else. So Ennis might have known at some level, but not really believed it. Maybe? I don't know. I go back and forth about whether Ennis consciously knew he was in love with Jack, too.

I need to watch the movie again, not just to look for Meryl's left vs right observations. I was thinking more about eye contact, and started thinking about how eye contact can mean so many different things. I've been looking at it as a sort of emotional openness, a kind of willingness to let the other person see what he is feeling. But eye contact can also be sort of aggressive, and avoiding eye contact can be a way of avoiding conflict. (I think I read one review, at least, that saw the opening scene as a couple of men sizing one another up, not as potential friends or lovers, but as competition (for what, I don't know).) Anyway, now I want to watch the movie can try to figure out what all the various eye contact (and lack of eye contact) means. (I want to look at the first tent scene, especially, because there's vulnerability there, but it's also filmed like a fight scene, so the eye contact might be saying a bunch of conflicting things.)

[Brown Eyes]

I'm not sure why I'm going into all this detail here, except to say that I don't see this as the behavior of a man upset at confronting his sexuality. Aside from the possibly homophobic Mexico threat, Ennis seems distraught at what is happening in their relationship and the emotional toll it is taking and his frustration over feeling he can neither fix it nor stand it.

I really like this reading of the scene.  I think it's important that the "I can't stand this anymore" line is the last thing we hear Ennis say to Jack in "real time" (whereas "see you in the morning" is the actual last thing we hear him saying to Jack, though out of sequence via the flashback.  And the problem lingers as to what was said during the time we miss in the 'argument' scene due to the interruption caused by the flashback).  This "I can't stand this anymore" line presents a nice harmony with the book, since the last line in Proulx's story is "If you can't fix it you have to stand it."  Yes, I think that absolutely the main, conscious thing on Ennis's mind here is what's happening with his relationship with Jack.  And, it's just amazingly touching.  I do think that Ennis's worry over how to identify his own sexuality can still be a subtext here (the kind of worry that bubbles under the surface and that an individual would be unlikely to really notice during such an argument).

[serious crayons]

I do think that Ennis's worry over how to identify his own sexuality can still be a subtext here (the kind of worry that bubbles under the surface and that an individual would be unlikely to really notice during such an argument).

Thanks for agreeing on the reading of the scene. Amanda. And yes, it is SOOO touching to think of it that way. True, Ennis' anxiety over his sexuality is not a non-issue, but it's not the main issue. Ennis is breaking down over the stress of not being able to respond to Jack in the way they BOTH really want him to. Going back to what I just finished posting on the "eye contact" thread: I find it a more appealing interpretation than the one that thinks Ennis is breaking down over having to confront his sexuality. I would much RATHER see it that way; it makes me feel better about all the sadness. But I don't think that's blind optimism. My interpretation of the facts supports it, too.