Uncle Harold : Who was he and how dare he end the summer a month early.

[opinionista]

If he had been allowed to have the next month together with Ennis on Brokeback, how would their lives have been different?

I don't think one more month would made a difference in their lives. It would only give them a few more moments to share, but nothing else. Remember what Proulx says about the dozy embrace. It's when Jack realizes Ennis would never get over the idea that he was in love with man. If you look at the expression of Jack's face in that scene, you'll see he is actually sad.

don't think Aguirre was even bothered by his shepherds having sexual activity; but, it bother him that they goof off too much with lots of horseplay and rough-housing while letting the dogs babysit the sheep. Their acting like the immature teenagers which they were when they should have been working as responsible adults was to what Aguirre meant when he accused them of "stemming the rose." The expression comes from removing the stems from roses, leaving only the rose blossom and there being no way too keep the rose looking good. "Stemming the rose" has to do with wasting time when there is work to be done.

Thank you for this. I realize now that I didn't quite understand the expression. I thought Aguirre meant having sex. At least the way Jack reacts to the comment made me think so. But your explanation makes sense.

I would say that if they had worked the full season on Brokeback Mountain and Ennis had his truck parked at Signal in Aguirre's parking lot just like Jack's was, Ennis might have changed his mind about getting married to Alma in December 1963. It certainly was not a "shot-gun" wedding because Alma did not get pregnant until January 1964.

He might have written Alma a "Dear Jane" POSTCARD, to tell her the marriage was off. In the book, Ennis's brother, K.E. lived in Signal when Ennis went to work for Aguirre. Alma might have lived in town or on a ranch there.

I doubt it. As I said above Ennis would never get over the fact that Jack was a man. Ennis only comes in terms with reality after Jack dies. That's the tragedy of his life. It's not that Jack passes away, he was going to do it sooner or later, it's that Ennis is left with practically nothing to remember him by. He only had a few memories and two bloody shirts. They loved each other for 20 years and didn't have a life together.

I knew Uncle Harold was a pretext to get Aguirre up there to spy on them. But still, it seemed like an awkward reason. Why not just have Aguirre stop by to check on things? That would be perfectly legitimate, and would avoid the distraction of introducing an unseen and irrelevant character.

Then last night, an idea came to me. Uncle Harold is about to die, but Jack can't do a thing about it -- whether he's "up here" on the mountain, or "down there," in society. It's a foreshadowing of what Ennis realizes in the end. He tried to keep them from harm by refusing to live with Jack. But Jack gets killed anyway.

In other words, Ennis can't do anything to keep Jack from dying, whether he's living with him (metaphorically, "up here" in their mountain paradise) or living apart ("down there" in society). It's out of his control.

The parallel is underscored when Aguirre says "so here I am" (here to tell Jack about Uncle Harold) and Jack says "so here I am" (here to be with Ennis after his divorce). Jack's response to Aguirre's report about Uncle Harold is, "bad news." And of course the report of Jack's death is VERY bad news.

I don't think Aguirre's visit to bring the news about Uncle Harold was a foreshadow of Jack's death. I didn't see it that way. He goes to the mountain to spy on them, and later on uses the storm as an excuse to fire them. He didn't like the way they were working, and he probably heard about his sheep getting among another herd way before Jack and Ennis came down from Brokeback. You see, he assigned Jack to be the herder not Ennis. He probably trusted Jack more because he had worked for him before. But they switched each other's job, and maybe that was against the rules.

[Brown Eyes]

I always wondered what the point was of dragging poor Uncle Harold into the story. Aguirre goes all the way up there to report to Jack that he's dying. But Aguirre and Jack agree there's nothing Jack can do about it. Later, turns out Uncle Harold is just fine after all.

I knew Uncle Harold was a pretext to get Aguirre up there to spy on them. But still, it seemed like an awkward reason. Why not just have Aguirre stop by to check on things? That would be perfectly legitimate, and would avoid the distraction of introducing an unseen and irrelevant character.

Then last night, an idea came to me. Uncle Harold is about to die, but Jack can't do a thing about it -- whether he's "up here" on the mountain, or "down there," in society. It's a foreshadowing of what Ennis realizes in the end. He tried to keep them from harm by refusing to live with Jack. But Jack gets killed anyway.

In other words, Ennis can't do anything to keep Jack from dying, whether he's living with him (metaphorically, "up here" in their mountain paradise) or living apart ("down there" in society). It's out of his control.

Yeehaw! I think that's a very smart way of interpreting Harold.  Jack's attitude towards the situation is a great window into his character too... Jack understands that things are beyond his control, and he's not really that bothered by it.  He's not all that bothered by Aguirre later on either with the "stemming the rose" comment.  Jack definitely rolls with the punches and doesn't let things get to him or stand in his way.  He's also apparently not as afraid of homophobic violence as Ennis is.  That fear wouldn't have kept Jack from moving in with Ennis (he's ready to go with one postcard).  In some cases Jack might be slightly reckless, but he's certainly brave too. 

[opinionista]

He's not all that bothered by Aguirre later on either with the "stemming the rose" comment.  Jack definitely rolls with the punches and doesn't let things get to him or stand in his way.

I think he was bothered. He lowers his face right after he hears the "stemming the rose" comment. But there was nothing he could do about it except leave the trailer as Aguirre demanded.

I agree that Jack was the strongest of the two, emotionally speaking, but he had his fears about people knowing about him. Maybe not as bad as Ennis but he had some concerns. Remember the Jimbo scene. Jack gets very nervous when he realizes the bartender knew he was hitting on Jimbo. Life wasn't easy for Jack either and not just because Ennis wouldn't commit but because he didn't have the freedom to be who he was out in the open. He too had to get married, he had to follow society's rules, he also lived in the closet. Jack was aware of the risks he was taking but I guess that, as mexican revolutionary leader, Emiliano Zapata, used to say, he'd  rather die standing than live on his knees. But that doesn't mean he wasn't afraid.

[Brown Eyes]

Sure, he was offended by the "stemming the rose" comment to a certain degree, but can you imagine how Ennis would have reacted to that?  Jack just moves on.  Jack also has enough sense about Ennis to not tell him about the "stemming the rose" conversation or even generally that Aguirre had seen them (at least movie-Jack doesn't even let on about this second general point).  And, Jack has just enough sense of the dangers out there to leave a bar when he sees a gang of guys talking about him around a pool table.  But, he didn't let any such concern stop him from hitting on Jimbo to begin with (in a rather open fashion too).  I guess what I'm saying is that he doesn't let his fears get the better of him or weigh him down for too long.  In a way he maintains a sense of proportion regarding fear and optimism.  But, I do think he occasionally lets his optimism turn into recklessness.  Maybe, in the extreme case, this is what led to his death (but of course we don't know).

Anyway, more on Harold.  I think the Harold situation and Aguirre's sudden appearance on the mountain in this particular show that at this point there's nothing that's going to drag Jack down from the mountain so long as Ennis is with him.  A sick relative isn't enough for Jack to even think about leaving.  I think it's been discussed in the past too, that this is the first hint Jack gets that Aguirre might be spying on them.  He sees Aguirre using the binoculars to look at Ennis.

[tiawahcowboy]

(From the Annie Proulx story) "Got to tell you, friend, maybe somebody seen us that summer. I was back there the next June, thinkin about goin back -- I didn't, lit out for Texas instead -- and Joe Aguirre's in the office and he says to me, he says, 'You boys found a way to make the time pass up there, didn't you,' and I give him a look but when I went out I seen he had a big-ass pair a binoculars hangin off his rearview." He neglected to add that the foreman had leaned back in his squeaky wooden tilt chair, said, Twist, you guys wasn't gettin paid to leave the dogs baby-sit the sheep while you stemmed the rose, and declined to rehire him.

Jack implies to Ennis in the motel room in 1967 that while he went to Aguirre's office in Signal, he just went there to see if Aguirre was hiring; but, he was not quite sure he wanted to work for Aguirre again. . . and because Aguirre mentioned their finding a way to spend the time of there, Jack might have known he knew they were not doing their jobs. Notice that Jack did not tell Ennis that Aguire refused to hire him again or even why.

While the movie has Jack seeing Aguirre with the binoculars in his hand up on Brokeback, Jack knows absolutely nothing about the binoculars until 1964 and he does not even see them until after Aguirre talks to him and he leaves the trailer. Annie Proulx wrote that they did not even know that anyone was watching them goofing off (doing more than just having sex), aka "stemming the rose," neglecting their assigned duties.

I get the impression from the text after Aguirre watched them the first time, that 10 minute period of watching, he observed what they did after that, too. I can sort of read between the lines that after Ennis opened up to Jack after they switched places and believe that they started goofing off for quite a while before they had sex the first time which was after they had been up on the mountain for quite a while. It was well into summer before the first night in the tent session. Say  . . . maybe 6 to 8 weeks after they started work.

While the book does not say so, I think that Aguirre was actually a foreman over more than just one sheep herd crew up in the mountains around Signal.

[Ray]

Hi here TC.  You seem familiar somehow>

[tiawahcowboy]

Hi here TC.  You seem familiar somehow>

Oh, most of us cowboys seem familiar t' lots a folks. Why in tarnation does it matter?

[welliwont]

Hello tiawahcowboy, nice to meetcha,

Question,

I get the impression from the text after Aguirre watched them the first time, that 10 minute period of watching, he observed what they did after that, too.

How did you know it was 10 mins?

and correction...

... before they had sex the first time which was after they had been up on the mountain for quite a while. It was well into summer before the first night in the tent session. Say  . . . maybe 6 to 8 weeks after they started work.

Other BBM scholars have already calculated that is was exactly one month from the time that they arrived at BBM 'til FNIT.  The method used for this calculation is the full moon on both of the nights in question.

[tiawahcowboy]

Hello tiawahcowboy, nice to meetcha,

Quote from: tiawahcowboy on May 26, 2006, 11:38:21 pm
I get the impression from the text after Aguirre watched them the first time, that 10 minute period of watching, he observed what they did after that, too.

Question,

How did you know it was 10 mins?

Quote from: tiawahcowboy on May 26, 2006, 11:38:21 pm
I get the impression from the text after Aguirre watched them the first time, that 10 minute period of watching, he observed what they did after that, too.

and correction...

Other BBM scholars have already calculated that is was exactly one month from the time that they arrived at BBM 'til FNIT.  The method used for this calculation is the full moon on both of the nights in question.

Are you referring to professionally educated Brokeback Mountain Movie Scholars or just folks who have seen the movie? I do have the book and the DVD.

Below quote is from the original short story about Aguirre watching them while they were up on Brokeback Mountain and it begins with particulars about the time period after Ennis opened up to Jack after they switched job assigments:

   

The summer went on and they moved the herd to new pasture, shifted the camp; the distance between the sheep and the new camp was greater and the night ride longer.
Ennis rode easy, sleeping with his eyes open, but the hours he was away from the sheep stretched out and out. Jack pulled a squalling burr out of the harmonica, flattened a little from a fall off the skittish bay mare, and Ennis had a good raspy voice; a few nights they mangled their way through some songs. Ennis knew the salty words to "Strawberry Roan." Jack tried a Carl Perkins song, bawling "what I say-ay-ay," but he favored a sad hymn, "Water-Walking Jesus," learned from his mother who believed in the Pentecost, that he sang at dirge slowness, setting off distant coyote yips.
   "Too late to go out to them damn sheep," said Ennis, dizzy drunk on all fours one cold hour when the moon had notched past two. The meadow stones glowed white-green and a flinty wind worked over the meadow, scraped the fire low, then ruffled it into yellow silk sashes. "Got you a extra blanket I'll roll up out here and grab forty winks, ride out at first light."
   "Freeze your ass off when that fire dies down. Better off sleepin in the tent."
   "Doubt I'll feel nothin." But he staggered under canvas, pulled his boots off, snored on the ground cloth for a while, woke Jack with the clacking of his jaw.
   "Jesus Christ, quit hammerin and get over here. Bedroll's big enough," said Jack in an irritable sleep-clogged voice. It was big enough, warm enough, and in a little while they deepened their intimacy considerably. Ennis ran full-throttle on all roads whether fence mending or money spending, and he wanted none of it when Jack seized his left hand and brought it to his erect cock. Ennis jerked his hand away as though he'd touched fire, got to his knees, unbuckled his belt, shoved his pants down, hauled Jack onto all fours and, with the help of the clear slick and a little spit, entered him, nothing he'd done before but no instruction manual needed. They went at it in silence except for a few sharp intakes of breath and Jack's choked "gun's goin off," then out, down, and asleep.
   Ennis woke in red dawn with his pants around his knees, a top-grade headache, and Jack butted against him; without saying anything about it both knew how it would go for the rest of the summer, sheep be damned.
 
   As it did go. They never talked about the sex, let it happen, at first only in the tent at night, then in the full daylight with the hot sun striking down, and at evening in the fire glow, quick, rough, laughing and snorting, no lack of noises, but saying not a goddamn word except once Ennis said, "I'm not no queer," and Jack jumped in with "Me neither. A one-shot thing. Nobody's business but ours." There were only the two of them on the mountain flying in the euphoric, bitter air, looking down on the hawk's back and the crawling lights of vehicles on the plain below, suspended above ordinary affairs and distant from tame ranch dogs barking in the dark hours.
They believed themselves invisible, not knowing Joe Aguirre had watched them through his 10x42 binoculars for ten minutes one day, waiting until they'd buttoned up their jeans, waiting until Ennis rode back to the sheep, before bringing up the message that Jack's people had sent word that his uncle Harold was in the hospital with pneumonia and expected not to make it. Though he did, and Aguirre came up again to say so, fixing Jack with his bold stare, not bothering to dismount.

It was May, a Spring month in the USA, when they were hired. While June is called a "Summer" month here, Summer does not officially start by Sun-Time until June 20 at the earliest and 22 at the latest. (Probably thought of the same way up in Canada, too.) I get the impression that it could have been close to July 1 when they changed camp/herd locations.

[welliwont]

OK tiawahcowboy, I stand corrected....

can't believe I made you go through all that, sorry...  I too have the story, but I have only read it twice, whereas I have the movie memorized....

BBM Scholars are the ones who know everyting about everything BBM, they used to reside at IMDb, and I read most of their posts.  Of course now it is like a ghost town, and all the old threads are slowly vanishing...

thanks for the post tiawahcowboy,