my 2 cents on ...This and That -- by idgeet

[TOoP/Bruce]

My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Tue Aug 8 2006 11:46:24 )   
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UPDATED Tue Aug 8 2006 20:05:44
I have a few miscellaneous thoughts... I just wanna get out. If they've been posted already, forgive me. I just have to be heard!! LOL



Before Ennis and Jack go into Joe's trailer, Ennis only looks at Jack when Jack's not looking at him. Same, of course, in the trailer, when they each steal their own separate look.

Where does the name Agguire (sp?) come from? What nationality?

I noticed a rope on a skeleton head of a bull or cattle behind Ennish in the bar. Isn't that foreshadowing?

The early scenes of the sheep being herded reminds me of "where's waldo?"

I noticed the scene where Jack was being bucked on his horse before he takes off for his camp. It was the same shot as when he was riding rodeo.

When Ennis looks towards Jack's camp, the camera shows a wide shot of the mountain with a storm coming. But Ang Lee shows a closer shot right away to show you he's looking toward Jack.

I also noticed that Jack trots his horse out of there the first time, and the second time. Then all of a sudden, things change a little and Ennis walks out the first time. He's already feeling things and is very comfortable with Jack.
But, sure enough, after the first sex scene, Ennis runs out of there.

When Ennis is late cause of the bear, Jack is shown smiling for a split second before going off on him. It's as if he needed to keep up appearances. Also, Jack sounds like a wife. "Where you been? I'm hungry and supper's not fixed." And, of course, Ennis also has that argument with Alma about supper.

Why does Jack stick his foot in the fire after peeing? Did he get pee on his boot and was trying to burn it?

Ennis and Jack are sitting on a log pretty close pre-sex night. They ususally sit somewhat across from each other, but when they are eating the elk in silence, they are sitting next to each other.

Ennis first flirts with Jack... *beep* remark... baiting him. Also the sinner remark.

I adore the way Ennis mustters the courage to go into the tent the second time. You can see the emotions he's feelings. I think he realizes he can't not go in there. And Jack's shirtless already, so you know he was waiting on him.

Ennis hides his face with his hat while keeled over in the alley. But he also hid his and Jack's face on the ground after rough-housing.

Did you see the tumbleweed blowing by while Ennis was in the alley?

Okay, there is a pink and blue truck they pass on the way to the bar. There's also a pink and blue truck and horsetrailer at the end of summer. What's with those colors? Is there a hidden meaning? I just never thought that would a color (pink) that the cowboys of that time would pick.

Ennis looks like he's wearing his best "sunday" shirt for the reunion. He wanted to look nice for Jack. And, in a way, Jack was his church.

There's nothing new on this one... I think Jack was blown away by the reunion kiss. His mouth is hanging open after the kiss like OMG, I wanted it, didn't think it would happen, but loving it kiss. Then when Ennis mumbles, "later", my breath is taken away.

I like the way Ennis pushes Jack out the door so he could get going to being alone.

Ennis was swaying with the two shirts in the closet. I'm sure he was remembering the scene we saw.

One last one... I noticed that during the sex with Alma, he turned the light off, as if he was imagining Jack instead (that's when he turned Alma over). But the motel scene showed them with the light on.


Okay... I feel better now. Thanks for reading.

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Re: This and That   
  by BannerHill     (Tue Aug 8 2006 11:52:29 )   
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<I adore the way Ennis mustters the courage to go into the tent the second time. You can see the emotions he's feelings. I think he realizes he can't not go in there. And Jack's shirtless already, so you know he was waiting on him. >


Great great great scene. Heath Ledger is ....amazing
Re: This and That   
  by daphne7661      (Tue Aug 8 2006 12:15:02 )   
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There's nothing new on this one... I think Jack was blown away by the reunion kiss. His mouth is hanging open after the kiss like OMG, I wanted it, didn't think it would happen, but loving it kiss. Then when Ennis mumbles, "later", my breath is taken away..

Is that what Ennis says when he leaves Jack breathless and heads back up the stairs to the apartment? I never could hear it because the music is playing right at that moment....

If that is what Ennis says, and I hear it, I will faint dead away....


...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...
Re: This and That   
  by idgeet     (Tue Aug 8 2006 12:28:17 )   
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I'd be the couch before you watch so you have some cushion when you faint. It took me a while, but I finally got it. And it's perfect.



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Re: This and That   
  by daphne7661      (Tue Aug 8 2006 12:33:19 )   
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WOWEEEEE!!! Oh boy - I'm goin' home to watch AGAIN!!!

 
 
 


...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...
Re: This and That   
  by littlewing1957      (Tue Aug 8 2006 12:40:38 )   
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<<I'd be the couch before you watch so you have some cushion when you faint. It took me a while, but I finally got it. And it's perfect.>>

It is perfect! I don't know how Jack's legs supported him after hearing that!

Re: This and That   
  by littlewing1957      (Tue Aug 8 2006 12:38:00 )   
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<<If that is what Ennis says, and I hear it, I will faint dead away....>>

Me too, Daphne! I was so excited after having read that. Ennis says "Later?" I can't stand it!

Re: This and That   
  by daphne7661      (Tue Aug 8 2006 12:53:20 )   
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I swear, I'd better be holding the phone, too, while I'm on that couch so I can dial 9-1-1 and save myself.......

 
 


...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...
Re: This and That   
  by littlewing1957      (Tue Aug 8 2006 15:19:17 )   
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<<I swear, I'd better be holding the phone, too, while I'm on that couch so I can dial 9-1-1 and save myself.......>>

I hear you!

Re: This and That   
  by idgeet     (Tue Aug 8 2006 15:56:02 )   
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LOL You two are making me laugh out loud!!

Come back and let me know after you watch it again, ok?

I'm thrilled with myself that I was able to tell the expert Brokies something they didn't alreay know! G R I N N I N G





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Re: This and That   
  by sunsetsilk      (Tue Aug 8 2006 20:50:57 )   
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Why does Jack stick his foot in the fire after peeing? Did he get pee on his boot and was trying to burn it?
Speaking of laughing out loud, that's exactly what I did when I read this one!!

And, fyi, I've been reading the board for months and months, and it's the first time I've seen ANYONE suggest pee on his boot!!!
Re: This and That   
  by idgeet     (Tue Aug 8 2006 20:53:45 )   
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It's the first thing I thought of...

what sort of things were also thought of??


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Re: This and That   
  by idgeet     (Tue Aug 8 2006 21:07:11 )   
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santino!!!!!!!!!!!! it happened again. i went to write more, and it was gone! I don't understand!! The only thing I can think of is when you wrote what you wrote. But that doesn't make sense really. I am bummed. It's a topic I loved talking about!! I laughed by myself!! Rolling over, laughing.

You wanna try???



I copied a quote so I could reply, but it was gone... so i'll put in on this one.



Even though the captions make it very clear what they are saying and who is saying it, it's just amazing how many people still refuse to believe what some of us have been saying all along -- which is that when Ennis finally works up the nerve to enter the tent, hat in hand, ENNIS says "Sorry" (for riding off that morning without a word, leaving Jack to wonder where he stood), and JACK replies "It's all right" as he pulls him close and they begin to make love.



I never heard the "sorry" until it was just pointed out to me!! These give me goosebumps!

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Re: This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Tue Aug 8 2006 21:22:40 )   
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Even though the captions make it very clear what they are saying and who is saying it, it's just amazing how many people still refuse to believe what some of us have been saying all along -- which is that when Ennis finally works up the nerve to enter the tent, hat in hand, ENNIS says "Sorry" (for riding off that morning without a word, leaving Jack to wonder where he stood), and JACK replies "It's all right" as he pulls him close and they begin to make love.

I actually don't hear Ennis say anything during that scene. I've turned the volume up as high as it'll go, and all I hear is Jack saying, "It's alright. It's alright. It's okay."

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Re: This and That   
  by tomtrueman     (Tue Aug 8 2006 21:40:29 )   
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UPDATED Tue Aug 8 2006 21:41:13
That quote in bold you just included there was taken from what I had written in reply to your other thread -- and how dumb that it disappeared yet again! There's something suspicious going on there, that's for sure.

But I rolled my eyes to see that Santinos wrote right after that he/she thought Jack did all the talking, which makes no sense. (Why would Jack say "sorry" and then tell himself it's all right?)

The captions make it very clear by putting the "Sorry" under Ennis, and the "It's all right" under Jack, which makes it clear who was saying what. It's also the only way it makes sense. It's such a beautiful romantic scene (the best in the movie, IMO) that it's annoying the way people keep getting it all wrong.
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Re: This and That   
  by tomtrueman     (Tue Aug 8 2006 21:53:07 )   
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UPDATED Tue Aug 8 2006 22:19:22
Yeah, but you also "clearly stated"
I actually don't hear Ennis say anything during that scene. I've turned the volume up as high as it'll go, and all I hear is Jack saying, "It's alright. It's alright. It's okay."


And since the captions make it very clear that SOMEBODY says "Sorry" then you must be somewhat deaf.

Also, you might want to dial back your spluttering outrage at being disagreed with. I wouldn't be surprised if the other posts keep getting blitzed if you've been mouthing off like an immature jerk, like you just did to me. Get a grip!
Re: This and That   
  by idgeet     (Tue Aug 8 2006 22:03:20 )   
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hey, now. come on!!


I have played that part over and over again before coming back on and I haven'tome back on until I could figure it out. I must say it's confusing. I can hear a "sorry" but when you look at them while it's being said, neither mouth is moving. I hear it. It's there, but perhaps they put it in during editing.

But it could be either one. Ennis could be saying sorry for walking away or for pulling back at that second. Or Jack could be saying sorry for his (Ennis')uncomfortableness.




NO WAIT. I got it for sure now. Jack says sorry. Ennis's lips are not moving. Jack looks down a little and his mouth is hard to see for a moment. But I do hear the "sorry" but it is JACK!!!!!!





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Re: This and That   
  by tomtrueman     (Tue Aug 8 2006 22:10:36 )   
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Hello? You were expecting to see Ennis's lips moving? How often did that happen? You must have noticed how he talked with his jaw clenched. He's whispering it very softly but he's still clearly saying it.

I see this all starting up again, with people refusing to believe what is so clearly there, and misguidedly attempting to ruin the best scene in the whole movie. Why do you think the caption for the "Sorry" is under Ennis? It's to show that the line is attributed to him. And the caption for "It's all right" is under Jack for the same reason.

Maybe it's time for me to leave these boards again. After a while it gets to be a drag saying the same things over and over to people who just won't listen.
Re: This and That   
  by sunsetsilk      (Tue Aug 8 2006 22:35:39 )   
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Maybe it's time for me to leave these boards again. After a while it gets to be a drag saying the same things over and over to people who just won't listen.


There's a huge difference between disagreeing, and not listening.

You imply that what you say is right and everyone who doesn't "listen" is wrong.



Re: This and That   
  by sunsetsilk      (Tue Aug 8 2006 21:49:15 )   
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I've never heard the "sorry" either. Even on DVD with headphones turned way up. As for the captions, many posters have pointed out that the captions aren't completely accurate.

In the screenplay itself, noone says "sorry."
Re: This and That   
  by tomtrueman     (Tue Aug 8 2006 21:59:44 )   
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If you saw it in a theatre with a state-of-the-art sound system, like I did the last nine times I saw it, the words are crystal clear. (Most people have lost half their hearing by going to too many loud concerts, and they don't even realize how deaf they are.)

Claiming that "captions aren't completely accurate" is a feeble way of trying to insist you are not wrong. Do you think people who write the captions just make stuff up on a whim and stick it in?
Re: This and That   
  by ailuro      (Tue Aug 8 2006 22:04:58 )   
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No they don't "make things up' tomtrueman, but captions in film have been wrong on many occassions.
I was just watching Goodfellas the other night, clicked on captions to check on something Henry Hill said & literally half the dialogue was not there.
Re: This and That   
  by idgeet     (Tue Aug 8 2006 22:11:53 )   
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I have to say, subtitles are definitely not always correct. Things change.

Take the word "later." Ennis clearly says it. But it's not on the subtitles! So they don't always pick little nuances and sounds up. And they definitely misspell or leave a word out.

Unfortunately.


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Re: This and That   
  by beans1030     (Wed Aug 9 2006 17:45:04 )   
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There is also another line that doesn't come up in subtitles, when Ennis is leaving Jack's parents' house, he says, "Thank you for this." But the subtitles say, "Thank you Ma'am."
And closed captioning on TV is wrong 1/2 the time. Very frustrating when you have a hearing-impaired child.
Re: This and That   
  by idgeet     (Wed Aug 9 2006 17:50:57 )   
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UPDATED Wed Aug 9 2006 17:59:30
I had started another thread to let everyone know about "Later." But it kept getting erased right away. I have no idea why. But in it I also went a bit further saying if you're deaf, just to let you know... there's a word right there. And it's a doosey of a word! I too would be extremely frustrated! But I just love that line (word) in there. It speaks volumes.


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Re: This and That   
  by sunsetsilk      (Tue Aug 8 2006 22:26:46 )   
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tomtrueman:

What makes you think I've never seen it in a theatre with a state-of-the-art sound system? AS you did?

Are you saying I've lost my hearing by going to too many loud concerts? Although I rarely tell anyone on this board they are wrong, you most certainly are, about this. My hearing is just fine, thank you very much.

Maybe, instead of working so hard to take cheap shots at my post, you should have read it more carefully.

All I said was, I didn't hear it. I didn't say anyone was wrong to believe otherwise. I certainly never "insisted" I was not wrong.






Re: This and That   
  by tomtrueman     (Tue Aug 8 2006 22:49:37 )   
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UPDATED Tue Aug 8 2006 22:51:23
People are certainly touchy today! That's why I quit posting here entirely for about a month, when I was on holiday. It's no fun on here when people start foaming at the mouth over every little thing.

I didn't say you hadn't seen it in a theatre with a state-of-the-art sound system -- but if you HAVE seen it in one, how could you have missed what was crystal clear? In the first theatre where I saw it, the sound quality was so poor you could hardly make out anything Ennis said, never mind whispered; but the next nine times I saw it were in three different theatres with top-notch sound systems, and it was perfectly clear what was said.

I have no idea whether you've been to loud concerts or not; but the fact is that, if you don't hear things that are very clearly audible to others, it does tend to suggest some hearing loss has occurred which you might not even be aware of.

There may have been a bit of an edge to my reply, which crept in out of exasperation, because there have been MANY very long threads squabbling over this same subject, before many of you even started posting. (I started posting regularly about BBM last December.) It's hard not to think, "Oh brother -- here we go again!"

On another board, I had to start sticking smiley faces all over the place because people kept overreacting to everything I said.   There, does that help?
Re: This and That   
  by idgeet     (Tue Aug 8 2006 23:51:01 )   
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tomtrueman...

There may have been a bit of an edge to my reply, which crept in out of exasperation, because there have been MANY very long threads squabbling over this same subject, before many of you even started posting. (I started posting regularly about BBM last December.) It's hard not to think, "Oh brother -- here we go again!"




Try to understand that for those of us who haven't been here very long may very well repeat thread, but personally, I don't have the time to go through 600 posts. I started this thread, and I started because I really just wanted to get a bunch of stuff said. Yes, it might have been said before, but it shouldn't matter. Just cause I'm late getting to the posts, doesn't mean I have nothing to say.

I'm sure you understand that a thing can get said many different ways. And mean a million different things to a million different people.

Most of us on this board love this site. Love this movie. Get so much out of it. That's why we come here. We come to check it out... then we don't leave!! I think it's phenomenal that I can come on here and speak my mind. I'm somewhat of a loaner. I have no parents anymore, no friends in the state I live, no job so no co-workers. So, you see, this is my place to purge. It's gift that we can all come together and discuss.

So if you think it's a bore cause YOU have heard it all before, then just go to a different thread. Right? Cause I want to keep this thread going so we can discuss all those things I wrote. I should have the right to speak if I feel like it right?


I hope it ends. Give us newbies a break.
And we can get back to the matter at hand on this particular thread.

Thanks,
Nancy

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Re: This and That - to idgeet   
  by tomtrueman     (Wed Aug 9 2006 00:20:18 )   
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UPDATED Wed Aug 9 2006 00:25:18
It's quite normal and expected for new people who have just seen the movie to say and ask about things which the rest of us may have chewed over for months now -- and that's not what I was objecting to at all.

No, I think it's wonderful when someone new has just discovered it and wants to talk about it. It's all new and exciting for them, and it reminds the rest of us of when it was new for us, too. There are MANY people here who have no one else to talk to, and it's very therapeutic for them to come on here and discuss it freely with their cyberfriends. (Many women have said that their husbands or boyfriends think they're crazy that they love BBM so much, and they are grateful that they have this board to come to.)

Believe it or not, I never get tired of discussing it -- and when someone posts, for example, the 3,645th repetition of the question asking which version of what happened to Jack was "true", I always know that they would have no way of knowing how many times the same question has been asked before. (A more easily searchable forum database would sure be nice, because even the most experienced user isn't likely to have the patience to scroll back through fifteen pages of lists of threads looking to see if anyone else has asked a certain question.)

What I was referring to is that sometimes, after much discussion, an issue seems to get settled to everyone's satisfaction -- and then after a while you see the same ground being covered again by people who suddenly aren't accepting what had convinced everybody else. (When my DVD arrived, the first thing I did was jump to the second scene in the tent and I turned on the captions, and the French subtitles for good measure. When I saw they BOTH confirmed what I had been saying all along, I thought "There! That should settle it." Apparently not.)

We all love this movie fiercely, and when someone is arguing in a way that ruins a favourite scene for someone else, tempers can get a little testy....
Re: This and That - to idgeet   
  by BannerHill     (Wed Aug 9 2006 00:31:52 )   
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I love this film and never get tired of talking about it and I saw it the first time last December
Re: This and That - to idgeet   
  by sunsetsilk      (Wed Aug 9 2006 09:57:12 )   
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UPDATED Wed Aug 9 2006 10:10:26
tomtrueman:
What I was referring to is that sometimes, after much discussion, an issue seems to get settled to everyone's satisfaction -- and then after a while you see the same ground being covered again by people who suddenly aren't accepting what had convinced everybody else.
I, too, have been on these boards since before the movie came out. This thing about the "sorry" has never been resolved. To say this has been settled to everyone's satisfaction is a bit presumptive. This is a new group of people, and they will come to their own conclusions (about this, and other matters), whether or not there is total agreement.

What tires me is being told, point blank, that I'm wrong about something when no definitive proof exists one way or another. Newbies come to this board with open minds, seeking discussion, someone pops in with all the "answers," where none really exist, and then takes insult when those others don't immediately fall down and give thanks for the "truth."

There are other mistakes in the subtitles. This may or may not be one of them. Deal with it. There is no "sorry" in the screenplay.

I didn't hear "sorry." That's all I said. (I actually heard something else at that point, but I don't need to tell you and have you ridicule my thoughts.) I didn't say you are WRONG just because YOU heard it..
but the fact is that, if you don't hear things that are very clearly audible to others, it does tend to suggest some hearing loss has occurred which you might not even be aware of.
And you think you can say things like this and have people NOT get touchy???

Maybe you have a hard time on this board because you come to post with an "I have all the answers, anyone not agreeing with me is incapable of (take your choice) understanding, seeing, hearing, what I do."

Respond if you like, but I won't be reading. I much prefer posts of substance, not those that in essence merely say "I'm right, and you're wrong."

Re: This and That - to sunsetsilk   
  by tomtrueman     (Wed Aug 9 2006 19:17:04 )   
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There are some people who always refuse to be convinced of anything, no matter how much evidence you put in front of them. Their minds are like concrete -- all mixed up and permanently set.

Some people still believe the world is flat. Religious people on the whole have managed to convince themselves of all kinds of nonsense without any evidence whatsoever. Doing that is what they call "faith".   

It's exasperating when people claim, as here, that you present no evidence ("I much prefer posts of substance, not those that in essence merely say "I'm right, and you're wrong.") -- and then when you PRESENT them with the evidence, like I did, they get mad at your "know-it-all attitude" and get all huffy that you think you're never wrong. ("I have all the answers, anyone not agreeing with me is incapable of (take your choice) understanding, seeing, hearing, what I do."). Which way do you want it? You don't get to have it both ways. (BTW, I hope you're never on a jury. You'd be hopeless.)

Also, it's hardly fair to take your shots and then announce that you "won't be reading" any replies. Nice open mind you have there.......
Re: OMG - Another One   
  by idgeet     (Thu Aug 10 2006 01:38:03 )   
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UPDATED Thu Aug 10 2006 01:47:43
Oh, dear God!!!

Do I tell you what I THINK I've found? YES I do, even though I run the risk of opening pandora's box!!!

I think I'm gonna start a thread dedicated to this, to get discussion on this, so do check it out and respond there about this one thing... OK?


I haven't heard anyone mention this yet, so I don't know if it's old, or new....

BUT....

Ennis is in Jack's closet and discovers the two shirts. He pulls the shirts close to him, and takes a deep breath. Ennis whispers/mumbles the words I LOVE YOU! You can barely hear him... but it's there. I'm sure of it. I think I'm sure of it!!

You may need to play it several times over, but he does say it, doesn't he? And Ennis even moves his lips. Turn the volume really loud.

If you need help pinpointing the spot.... it's the last moment before the film cuts back to the mom.

I just figured this out myself and had to tell you all as soon I did. Please check it out and let me know what you think.... this could be big!



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Re: OMG - Another One   
  by tomtrueman     (Thu Aug 10 2006 02:22:15 )   
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Before I went on holidays, a few people had written about hearing him say "I love you" in Jack's closet -- and if you heard it yourself without knowing that others have said so, it makes it sound like it's worth checking out. Your enthusiasm is inspiring, so keep your insights coming. You've already pointed out things that many longtimers hadn't spotted. Good for you.

I've got a list of new things to listen and look for now, on my next viewing of the movie, but so far I haven't had time to sit down with it yet. (I want to watch it all again, not just jump to scenes.) I also want to look for the subliminal spelling out of Jack's name in the trees when Ennis emerges from the Twists' farmhouse with the shirts. There was a thread about that.

I still think a line's inclusion in the captions is an indicator it's not just in someone's imagination. The quality of a captioner's work may vary, but they don't usually make stuff up on a whim -- but it seems like there are lots of people who can never be convinced.
Re: OMG - Another One   
  by idgeet     (Thu Aug 10 2006 03:09:47 )   
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Thanks tomtrueman! I'm actually going to clear my head by watching the film as I did before.... an unfolding story of love. I completely enjoyed the board, and all the different insights. It is quite amazing that all of these people feel passionately about the film as I do.

But for a day, I'm going to forget the insight and just enjoy the film!! Know what I mean?



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Re: OMG - Another One   
  by tomtrueman     (Thu Aug 10 2006 03:21:36 )   
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Yes, it's just amazing all the little details that sneak up on you. Each time you watch it, you seem to see more. And then someone posts about something else, so you want to watch it yet again.

There are definitely details that many people don't get the first time. {*SPOILER AHEAD*) Like when Ennis found the bloody shirts hidden in Jack's closet, my friend in Seattle thought it was what Jack had been wearing when he was killed! (Like he thought Jack's mother would retrieve it from the morgue and just hang it in his closet unwashed!) 

I had to explain to him that they were the shirts they had both worn on their last day on the mountain. That reversal of the order at the end still chokes me up.   

(BTW, I'm thinking you must be in New Zealand or Australia, if you're still posting at this hour. Most of the posters are in bed already, and even here in Vancouver it's twenty after three....)
Re: OMG - Another One   
  by idgeet     (Thu Aug 10 2006 03:27:14 )   
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LOL on the shirts... that's funny.

No... I'm in Texas actually. It's 5:24 am right now. This is the anniversary of my mom's death (1 year) and having trouble sleeping. I have horrible insomnia anyways, but with that, it just makes it a tad worse. But thanks for the interest. VANCOUVER - lucky you. What a beautiful place to live! I always thought if I was Canadian, there is no other place to live. I lived in Toronto for a year a while ago (followed a girl up there!) and I loved Toronto, but Vancouver is in a class all it's own!



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Re: OMG - Another One   
  by tomtrueman     (Thu Aug 10 2006 04:05:32 )   
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I hope you don't have to be at work in a couple of hours! I can set my own hours, so I wake up when I'm ready to, not when an alarm rings.

So sorry to hear about your mom. The loss can take a long time to get over. (I lost mine nearly seven years ago now, but there are times I still miss her so much it hurts.) Yes, Vancouver is a beautiful city. Clean, safe, not too hot, not too cold, and with a vibrant and desirable inner city that attracts a lot of people with money who live in high-end condominium towers.

I was intrigued by your post a while ago describing how fascinated you were by the story of BBM. There have been a few lesbians at showings I've seen, but mostly the crowds have been straight women with about a quarter of the audience being gay men. I hope you'll find happiness with someone in your life -- but you may have to move to a big city that's not in Texas.....

Well, it's after four now, so I should go to bed. Take care, and try to get some rest yourself.

Re: This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Tue Aug 8 2006 22:30:19 )   
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Jesus effing Christ. People mishear/overlook a single line of dialogue and they're automatically in desperate need of fine-tuning their hearing aids. You're just itching to probe our ears with Q-tips and brand-iron the captions on our eardrums. Where do you get off spouting "OMG how can u not hear it?? You wrong! you wrong, admit it!! admit it!! you dimwith spupid deaf deeaf people omg resistance is feelbe, denial is futile!!!11" I swear I can picture you demanding admittance of blasphemy at knifepoint. Quick, somebody load a dart gun with a sedative before tomtrueman has a self-riteous seizure!

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Re: This and That   
  by sunsetsilk      (Tue Aug 8 2006 21:09:20 )   
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idgeet,

I think most comments about the boot were along the "playing with fire" line...fire (red) being associated with sexuality...
Re: This and That   
  by beans1030     (Wed Aug 9 2006 17:30:16 )   
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I thought Ennis says, "Come here" before he goes up to Alma, after the kiss. I'll have to watch it again to see though.
Re: This and That   
  by idgeet     (Wed Aug 9 2006 17:35:34 )   
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Nope... "later." And when you hear it it will literally take your breath away! He may say... "hey" right before... but then whispers "later." mmmmmmmm


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[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Tue Aug 8 2006 16:00:52 )   
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UPDATED Tue Aug 8 2006 16:04:18
Insight on the name Aguirre:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lope_de_Aguirre
Not exactly what you're looking for, I know, but I found it interesting.

I adore the way Ennis mustters the courage to go into the tent the second time. You can see the emotions he's feelings. I think he realizes he can't not go in there. And Jack's shirtless already, so you know he was waiting on him.

 I love that!! I love thata!!!

Did you see the tumbleweed blowing by while Ennis was in the alley?

That's symbolic. Jack was his tumbleweed and Ennis had just released him into the wind, knowing very well he may never see him again.

There's nothing new on this one... I think Jack was blown away by the reunion kiss. His mouth is hanging open after the kiss like OMG, I wanted it, didn't think it would happen, but loving it kiss. Then when Ennis mumbles, "later", my breath is taken away.

I always thought he mumbled, "Hey." Gotta go watch that scene right and turn the volume waaay up!! lol If that's what he says.....OMG .OMGDdahada.....I'm going to self-combust!! OMB that would be..d..dajaahfka.....

Ennis was swaying with the two shirts in the closet. I'm sure he was remembering the scene we saw.

Which scene are you talking about?

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Re: This and That   
  by idgeet     (Tue Aug 8 2006 16:41:09 )   
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The "sleeping while standing up" scene.

You didn't know about "later" either Santinos?? WOW. I still grinning cause I know so far I've made three people's night!!!!

Come thank me after you watch it, okay?



LOL


By the way, Santinos, I copied your signature for myself. I joined the cause. I hope that's okay..

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Re: This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Tue Aug 8 2006 16:59:58 )   
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 I heard it!! I heard it!! He says, "Hey," nuzzles Jack, then whispers, "Later." I heard it!! Squealed out loud!! It's just so....how Jack's clinging to him, straining for another kiss, and Ennis pries his hands off and says, "Later." OMG.....it's like Jack's saying, "Here! Now!" Ennis says, "Later." I ocold just....can't type....I could just....das9trua9fhad.....

Thanks for copying my signature!! Good to know someone's contributing. I couldn't stand to see BBM drop off the top 250 AGAIN.....!!1

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In the words of Roseanne Rosannadanna...   
  by toycoon      (Tue Aug 8 2006 16:49:48 )   
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UPDATED Tue Aug 8 2006 16:52:50
...you sure ask alotta questions.

I thought I was the only one who thinks about this movie every freakin' minute of the day. And it isn't like I don't have a full time job, a husband of 20 years, functional use of my limbs or an actual life or anything!

Ennis saying, "Later" after the most insane screen kiss ever, I noticed the second time I saw it. The first time I was as overwhelmed as Jack. I thought I would pass out the first time I heard him say that.

Ennis is so animated when he introduces his "secret lover" to his wife like he stuck his finger in a light socket! Notice that both men are concealing "woodies" in their pants.

It's Ennis that knocks Jack's hat off initiating the 'horseplay' the morning after the second night in the tent. When they fall to the ground, it's cute that he covers both of them with his hat as they start to kiss.

Jack does a little twirl on his mare, that gets a little out of his control and he looks back to see if Ennis saw that then, he rides off with Ennis craning his neck to watch Jack disappear. In the next scene, we see the rain fall outside the tent and Ennis whittling a sculpt of a horse, concentrating the horse's butt.

The tumbleweed rolling across the alley was the only cliche element in the entire movie to harken back to the classic "Western" movie.

Nice to know know ya, idgeet!
Re: In the words of Roseanne Rosannadanna...   
  by littlewing1957      (Tue Aug 8 2006 17:03:47 )   
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<<Ennis saying, "Later" after the most insane screen kiss ever, I noticed the second time I saw it. The first time I was as overwhelmed as Jack. I thought I would pass out the first time I heard him say that.

Ennis is so animated when he introduces his "secret lover" to his wife like he stuck his finger in a light socket! Notice that both men are concealing "woodies" in their pants.>>

Oh hell, Toycoon, I'm getting feverish!

Re: In the words of Roseanne Rosannadanna...   
  by idgeet     (Tue Aug 8 2006 17:19:56 )   
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Good to know you too, Toycoon!!

I am unemployed at the moment and it's a good thing cause I'm addicted and if feels good to be able to feed that addiction. But I did get a call back today and I have an interview tomorrow.

Santino... YEAH!!! I'm laughing out loud all by myself. You're a hoot. I'm glad I was able to get you excited about it.

I started a new thread after several people told me they didn't know about the "later." And it is an amazing amazing moment. So don't think I'm starting a new thread for nothing. I just wanted to tell as many people who don't know about the "later" about it.

I watched once with my subtitles on and I am afraid if you're deaf, you won't know about it. It was mumbled, and the word never comes up on the subtitles. So for all you "deaf Brokies" there you go. LOL


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Re: In the words of Roseanne Rosannadanna...   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Tue Aug 8 2006 17:14:58 )   
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UPDATED Tue Aug 8 2006 17:15:23
Jack does a little twirl on his mare, that gets a little out of his control and he looks back to see if Ennis saw that then, he rides off with Ennis craning his neck to watch Jack disappear. In the next scene, we see the rain fall outside the tent and Ennis whittling a sculpt of a horse, concentrating the horse's butt.

 You guys have made me modest when it comes to observational skills.....!! Really, I thought nothing got past me.

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Re: In the words of Roseanne Rosannadanna...   
  by ailuro      (Tue Aug 8 2006 17:20:23 )   
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Bump   
  by idgeet     (Tue Aug 8 2006 20:07:28 )   
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Bump
Re: In the words of Roseanne Rosannadanna...   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Tue Aug 8 2006 21:13:35 )   
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Ennis is so animated when he introduces his "secret lover" to his wife like he stuck his finger in a light socket! Notice that both men are concealing "woodies" in their pants.

 I love how giddy Ennis is right there. When Jack says, "I got a boy. Eight months old. Smiles a lot," Ennis chuckles and looks at Alma, as if to see if she appreciates Jack's humor.

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Re: In the words of Roseanne Rosannadanna...   
  by littlewing1957      (Wed Aug 9 2006 08:58:31 )   
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<<I love how giddy Ennis is right there. When Jack says, "I got a boy. Eight months old. Smiles a lot," Ennis chuckles and looks at Alma, as if to see if she appreciates Jack's humor.>>

I love how Ennis answers, "Yeah?" to Jack when he mentions Bobby. The "yeah?" is just so real, just stands out in my mind.

Re: In the words of Roseanne Rosannadanna...   
  by daphne7661      (Wed Aug 9 2006 09:12:49 )   
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I love how Ennis answers, "Yeah?" to Jack when he mentions Bobby. The "yeah?" is just so real, just stands out in my mind.

Ohhh, I love that, when Ennis says "Yeah?!" It's like a private moment between them and they are alone, but they're not!!



...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...
Re: In the words of Roseanne Rosannadanna...   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Mon Aug 14 2006 20:02:23 )   
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It just struck me how funny it is that one little word makes us all weak at the knees. "Later" makes us damn near pass out, "Yeah" stands out in your minds.....what has this film done to us? I'm just now finding it funny how we're so frenzied over just a simple, commonly used English word. Ahhhh, the power of cinema. The sheer power.....

"Jack, I swear...."
Re: 2 Cents   
  by idgeet     (Mon Aug 14 2006 20:15:38 )   
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ok... santinos. it's cool. i won't worry.

YES, "later" is an amazing little word, isn't it!!!!!


"...later." 
Re: 2 Cents   
  by idgeet     (Mon Aug 14 2006 23:11:00 )   
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i once wrote that i felt like jack only PRETENDED to be mad at ennis for being late with the food... when the bear caused his horse to throw him off, and take off.

I just read the screenplay and realized that i was right. it states:

"jack is more woried than angry, tries to disguise his concern with indignation." so he did try to cover the fact that he was worried.

hmmmmmm

i guess jack really did already start to fall for ennis.


"...later." 
Re: In the words of Roseanne Rosannadanna...   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Wed Aug 9 2006 14:18:02 )   
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Another thing about that scene: when they're reunited, Ennis exclaims, "Jack f'king Twist!!" Then when he's introducing him to Alma, he says, "Alma? This is, uh, Jack Twist." Maybe he was urged right there to announce, "It's Jack f'king Twist!"

I just realized something....that's the very first time he says Jack's name. And what a way to say it. "Jack f'king Twist!" slapping his hands on the railing. I love how he says it. I just love how he says Jack's name..... 

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Re: In the words of Roseanne Rosannadanna...   
  by daphne7661      (Wed Aug 9 2006 14:23:33 )   
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I think Ennis says "Jack *beep* Twist" three times in the movie.

First, it is with love and excitement.
Second, it is out of aggravation and frustration.
Lastly, it is out of anger and jealousy.

All three said in totally different tones, physical movements and facial expressions...

Heath Ledger is amazing!!!


...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...
Re: In the words of Roseanne Rosannadanna...   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Wed Aug 9 2006 14:57:51 )   
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UPDATED Wed Aug 9 2006 15:01:03
Hold up - he does say Jack's name earlier in the movie when he receives the postcard and Alma asks "Do you know someone named Jack?" He says, "Jack, he rodeos mostly." The reunion is the first time he says Jack's name to his face. I can't think of any other scene in the movie where he says it.

Agreed - Heath is amazing and was ROBBED at the Academy!! If the Academy has the gall to overlook Heath, then I don't have much faith in movie awards anymore. Heath's range doesn't seem to have boundaries.

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Re: In the words of Roseanne Rosannadanna...   
  by ailuro      (Wed Aug 9 2006 15:09:33 )   
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During the sheep round-up scene with the Chileans.
Ennis says "We gotta stick this out, Jack."
Re: In the words of Roseanne Rosannadanna...   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Wed Aug 9 2006 15:13:09 )   
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During the sheep round-up scene with the Chileans.
Ennis says "We gotta stick this out, Jack."

 Well, thankyouverymuch for shattering the delusion I had going there. 

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Reunion Scene   
  by LauraGigs     (Wed Aug 9 2006 09:59:50 )   
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Toycoon: "Notice that both men are concealing "woodies" in their pants."

How can you tell? (Being a girl I'm ignorant of woodie-concealing techniques.)

??
Re: In the words of Roseanne Rosannadanna...   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Mon Aug 14 2006 19:59:27 )   
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It's Ennis that knocks Jack's hat off initiating the 'horseplay' the morning after the second night in the tent.

That's similar to the reunion scene where he knocked Jack's hat off before devouring him.

"Jack, I swear...."
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by sunsetsilk      (Tue Aug 8 2006 21:14:41 )   
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One last one... I noticed that during the sex with Alma, he turned the light off, as if he was imagining Jack instead (that's when he turned Alma over).
Previously in that scene, as Alma asks Ennis about being lonely, there is the sound of the wind, which most viewers feel represents Jack....
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by daphne7661      (Wed Aug 9 2006 01:01:21 )   
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OH - MY - GOODNESS!!!!! I heard it!!!!!! I heard the "later"...... On the first try after hearing that this is what Ennis says as he leaves Jack breathless and heads back on up that staircase, which is totally ridiculous since I have probably watched this film over 100 times now!!! But it was as clear as a bell, and I seriously got dizzy!!! I played it over and over to make sure I could still hear it, and, sure as shootin', there it was. I could feel the sweet pain of wildfire rip through my gut and wondered, as did littlewing, how Jack's legs could have possibly supported him after hearing Ennis say that... I know that if I were Jack, I would NEVER have had the ability to follow Ennis and walk up those stairs to meet Alma.

Also, I'd like to throw in my two cents on tent scene 2 and who says what, what exactly is said and why. You can do with it what you will.

I believe it is Jack who does all the talking and would be the one saying "I'm Sorry".

I ask only that those of you who believe it was Ennis, and those of you who don't even hear it, to please keep an open mind and consider my take on it upon your next viewing.

Thanks.


Ennis approaches the tent and kneels down in front of Jack.
Jack puts his hand on Ennis' arm and leans into him.
Ennis, nervous, of course, kind of quickly leans into Jack, maybe to kiss him. He is kind of interrupted because Jack takes his hat out of his hands. This somewhat disarms Ennis.
Jack then cups Ennis' face/cheek in his hand and turns those baby blues on Ennis (who could resist him at this point, my goodness) and says, "C'mere".
Ennis doesn't move much and is a bit resistant (nervous) to kiss Jack, so Jack says, "C'mon"
They kiss.
They release.
I think Jack feels a tad guilty for having "pushed" Ennis into kissing him (even though he didn't and Ennis really wanted to anyway, but was just nervous).
So, Jack hangs his head a bit and says, "I'm sorry" (sorry for what he perceives as having "pushed" Ennis too quickly perhaps).
Jack then says, "It's all right. It's all right. Lie Back. C'mon."

Ennis says nothing in this scene. I truly, truly believe that.

Of course, we all see and hear different things, but take what I wrote and watch it again.

I don't trust those subtitles at all. There are many other parts where they are wrong.



...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by ailuro      (Wed Aug 9 2006 01:52:53 )   
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UPDATED Wed Aug 9 2006 02:54:52
Geez, will this ever end?
I'm not dissing ya daphne7661, but it was too much when others swear they've heard Ennis say "I'm sorry" in TS2 & then "later" during the reunion.
Now we have "c'mere" and "c'mon"?
 

*edit* I forgot to mention "lie back".
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by tomtrueman     (Wed Aug 9 2006 02:36:40 )   
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... it was too much when others swear they've heard Ennis say "I'm sorry" in TS2...

Except that the part everyone keeps blithely shutting their eyes (and minds) to is that the captions and subtitles both CONFIRM that he says it too, which some of us have been saying all along. We aren't just dreaming this stuff up, you know.

In any scene where both men are visible in the same shot, the captions are always placed UNDER whichever man is speaking. This is not done on a whim, it's for a reason -- so that deaf people will know who is speaking when they can't hear to recognize the voice.

If anyone can't HEAR that he says "I'm sorry" (and that includes the people who are going deaf and don't seem to realize it), they can read it right there on the screen. And as always, it's written on the RIGHT side under Ennis, because Ennis is saying it. And when Jack says "It's all right" both times, it's written on the LEFT side under HIM, because he is saying that in response. Why is this so hard for some people to comprehend?

It's just incredible to see people then trying to claim that the captions were "probably wrong" -- and the subtitles probably were wrong too. Oh please.   Face the facts, people.
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by daphne7661      (Wed Aug 9 2006 06:06:28 )   
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UPDATED Wed Aug 9 2006 06:09:32
Well, I can comprehend what is being portrayed to me on screen. But I also can hear and see. While I can't say that either of their mouths move convictingly during the "I'm Sorry", I know Jack's voice, and I can see WHY he would be saying sorry. It just doesn't fit that Ennis would be saying "sorry" NOW so long after he dissed Jack and took off on horseback that morning. It would be nice if Ennis apologized for that, but I don't think he does.

Also, the folks who do the closed captioning aren't always perfect, and if all of us can't agree on who said what, who's to say that they figured it out either in much less viewings than all of us have done....

There's really no need for us all to fight about it. We are all here to express ourselves and our opinions. Why don't we just leave it at that...



...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by sunsetsilk      (Wed Aug 9 2006 16:40:09 )   
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Also, the folks who do the closed captioning aren't always perfect, and if all of us can't agree on who said what, who's to say that they figured it out either in much less viewings than all of us have done....
bingo...especially when there's no help to be had from the screenplay itself...
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Wed Aug 9 2006 07:39:13 )   
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UPDATED Wed Aug 9 2006 07:41:31
OH - MY - GOODNESS!!!!! I heard it!!!!!! I heard the "later"...... On the first try after hearing that this is what Ennis says as he leaves Jack breathless and heads back on up that staircase, which is totally ridiculous since I have probably watched this film over 100 times now!!! But it was as clear as a bell, and I seriously got dizzy!!! I played it over and over to make sure I could still hear it, and, sure as shootin', there it was. I could feel the sweet pain of wildfire rip through my gut and wondered, as did littlewing, how Jack's legs could have possibly supported him after hearing Ennis say that... I know that if I were Jack, I would NEVER have had the ability to follow Ennis and walk up those stairs to meet Alma.

 Ditto, ditto, ditto, a thousand times ditto!! After all my multiple viewings, I can't believe I couldn't hear it before. My breath caught in my throat and I got dizzy too! Dear Jack, after the ferocity of that kiss, being left with nothing else but a reassuring, "Later," before having to compose himself to meet Alma. I don't know how he did it. If we, as viewers, got dizzy, imagine the affect it had on him! It's a wonder he didn't pass out there.

The second tent scene: I definitely hear the "C'mere" and "C'mon," but again, I can't make out any apology from either of them, or a "Lie back. C'mon." I really gotta try listening to this with headphones. Again, all I hear from Jack is, "It's all right. It's all right. [nod] It's okay." Most of you don't hear the "It's okay," but it's there, as he nods just before he lies down. Pleeeeease don't threaten to crudely amputate my ears for saying that. Have mercy!!

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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Wed Aug 9 2006 08:45:18 )   
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There's really no need for us all to fight about it. We are all here to express ourselves and our opinions. Why don't we just leave it at that...


.... moving on....


Daphne.... I am so glad that you found the later. And it makes me smile each and every time someone finally hears it and are just as blown away as I. I guess cause it's a key line for me. He's come a long way in 4 years! So passionate and so sure of what he's feeling at that moment in his life. You see that and that's what makes this story such a tragedy. And so heartbreaking. You wish he could make Jack's life what it should be. It's rare to find love that powerful... that innocent... that simple. Everyone wants that for themselves, right? I do. I haven't had it... yet. But I can guarantee you, after seeing this film, if that kind of love happens to find me, you can bet I will grab hold of it and never let it go! Ennis' mistake won't be mine!




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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by matt-2044     (Wed Aug 9 2006 08:52:01 )   
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OH MY GOD, OH MY GOD

Having read all these threads, I wanted to hear the line for myself and I certainly did. Hadn't noticed it before, but after playing it again there it was.

Just after he finishes kissing Jack and before he goes up the stairs he whispers 'later'.

I didn't think I could get more upset at this film or cry more or feel more of a loss than I did but this takes it to a new level. The tears started to flow again and I felt the greatest ache in my stomach. I don't know about how Jacks legs could of held out but mine gave way instantly I heard that word.

Thank you idgeet for making what was outstandingly wonderful film even better.
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Wed Aug 9 2006 08:30:06 )   
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 OMG OMG OMGOMG!! Now - just now, as I was watching the reunion scene on YouTube - I heard something!! I heard something! Alright....they hug, pull away, Ennis glances around, AND THEN MURMURS, "C'mere," just before he starts shoving Jack back. I turned the volume up VERY LOUD and I clearly heard him murmur, "C'mere." My jaw dropped!! Ennis saying, "C'mere"? Auuuuugggghhhh!! Oh my goodness, ohhhh my goodness.....LISTEN FOR IT!! Really, after all the hundreds of times I've watched it, I haven't heard that until just today. Play the scene, turn the volume up as high as it'll go, and you'll hear him saying, "C'mere." GAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!! I think I'm going to 

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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by daphne7661      (Wed Aug 9 2006 08:51:17 )   
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Yes, SB, I did hear Ennis' "C'mere". I love how sexy and throaty it is, too.....

WaHOO!!!


...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by LauraGigs     (Wed Aug 9 2006 10:31:22 )   
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UPDATED Wed Aug 9 2006 19:25:26
"Before Ennis and Jack go into Joe's trailer, Ennis only looks at Jack when Jack's not looking at him . . ."

The first scene outside the trailer shows so much about each of them, without a word of dialogue!

"... the scene where Jack was being bucked on his horse before he takes off for his camp. It was the same shot as when he was riding rodeo."

The same shot, idgeet, like they reused one? I don't imagine they would do that . . .

"When Ennis looks towards Jack's camp . . . Lee shows a closer shot right away to show you he's looking toward Jack."

Lots of folks say that shows they were falling in love, & I'm sure it's true. But frankly? If there's only one other person with you on an entire mountain range, you're going to look at them occasionally . . .

"Jack trots his horse out of [camp] the first and second time. Then things change a little and Ennis walks his out the first time. He's already feeling things and is very comfortable with Jack."

I hadn't noticed that! (Jack trotting out & Ennis walking the horse out.) It also says something about their personalites: Jack = Impulsive & Quick; Ennis = Slow & Careful.

"Why does Jack stick his foot in the fire after peeing?"

The best explanation I've read: Jake G couldn't find a comfortable spot on the rock to rest his boot (the way the fire was set up) so he just does that while saying his lines.

"Ennis first flirts with Jack... *beep* remark... baiting him."

I LOVE the look on Ennis' face as he says the "f— ups" line. Just kills me!

"Ennis hides his face with his hat while keeled over in the alley. But he also hid his and Jack's face on the ground after rough-housing."

Ennis is lucky cowboy hats were invented. What would he have done without them to hide behind? From the opening with Jack, to the Cassie/Pie scene . . .
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Wed Aug 9 2006 10:47:15 )   
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"Ennis hides his face with his hat while keeled over in the alley. But he also hid his and Jack's face on the ground after rough-housing."

Ennis is lucky cowboy hats were invented. What would he have done without those hats to hide behind??

That says something about the facades they had to don. And it was always the white hat, the yin, that was shielding them.....here's my thread on the consistent emphasis on yin and yang:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/thread/49669507?d=49669507#49669507

And I too ADORE Ennis's expression when he says the thing about rodeo cowboys. You can tell he said it just to get a reaction out of Jack. Sooooo adorable. They look like little boys right there. Ennis is like, "Daddy says all rodeo cowboys are f'k-ups!" Jack's all, "Nuh-uh!!"  I love, love, love these two beyond reason.

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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Wed Aug 9 2006 14:11:37 )   
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I copied your yin/yang thread so I can read it later. It's interesting.

It was, probably Ennis' most adorable look in the whole film, besides the look he gives him when he says "what?". (you know where Jack says that's the most you've talked....) And the next look too after he says it the most in a year. You know Jack was head over by then!

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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Thu Aug 10 2006 08:04:45 )   
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UPDATED Thu Aug 10 2006 12:43:50
Here's my little this/that: you know the lasso scene? I used to think, while they were rolling around on the ground, that Ennis was tickling Jack. I took Jack's giggling for a tickle-laugh. Is that not the cutest mental picture in the world?!?? Is it not?? Whenever I'm blue I just picture Ennis tickling Jack and I get the giggles and I'm happy again 

In fact, a few days ago when I was taking my senior picture, I got myself to smile a genuine smile for the camera by thinking of Jack and Ennis. It worked a little too well. I got too giggly and had to bite my tongue for the serious photos. lol 

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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Thu Aug 10 2006 12:13:53 )   
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That's adorable Santinos!



OK... A few more random thoughts from me!

Jack is truly adorable. I think I got a sense of Jack immediately by is actions. He's so young... and that's part of it. But he really tries all the time to "save face" while in the presence of Ennis. For instance... when Jack pulls up, gets out of the car, glances quickly at Ennis, then kickes the tire after the truck's muffler lets out some steam. I got the feeling he kicked it to show Ennis he's not a sissy... he's tough. Then the other time that sticks out, is the scene by the fire when Ennis cut his head. He was sitting there, and yeah, he was put out because he's hungry, but it looks like he smiled in an instant. He was glad to see Ennis even before he saw the cut. But he switched his face to a more serious scowl, saying where the hell has he been. He said that for Ennis. To save face. But Jake did a great job because he had to play a kid who was pretending to be tough, but it had to be slightly see-through for us!



Did we already talk abot Jack being take cared for by Ennis... even early on. Jack's the herder cause he's got the experience. But Jack hates that job. No one would want it because, there's no fire, no camp, etc. Ennis switches jobs for Jack. Jack doesn't want beans, so Ennis orders soup, which he doesn't like. Jack can't shot worth a damn, so Ennis shoots the elm for him so he can have something other than beans. Even early when Jack looks concerned towards Jack when a storm is coming. Ennis even leans backwards when it looks like Jack's going to get bucked off his horse cause he's concerned for him. Even 20 years later when he's putting the gear in the truck for Jack cause Jack looks like he has a bad back now. Can you think of some I may have missed?



Jack is Ennis' can opener. Literally and figuratively. He is the one asking all the questions... personal questions... he prodding him. He's "opening" him up just like a can opener.



I think it's cute the way Jack uses the word "situation." It's almost too big for him!


I got a question.... what does Jack say to Ennis after he falls over when Ennis pushes him toppling him over? I think I hear him say something about using the elk to catch fish. Do you know??


That's it for now.



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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Thu Aug 10 2006 12:17:56 )   
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Really quick questions: Does anyone know why, during the phone call, Lureen has a really bright white light around her? I feel like it symbolizes something, but don't know what!!


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UPDATED Thu Aug 10 2006 12:19:58
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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by daphne7661      (Thu Aug 10 2006 12:31:40 )   
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Yep,

JACK: (giggling) "Better get a move on.... Don't want the Game & Fish to catch us with no elk..."



...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Thu Aug 10 2006 13:12:41 )   
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Another case of Ennis looking out for Jack: "Tent don't look right." "Well, it ain't goin' no where. Let it be." Ennis is the one fussing over the tent, even though he's not planning on sleeping in it - yet.  Jack pretends to shrug off Ennis's concern, but from his tone he was definitely delighted that Ennis would care.

Yes, Jack is adorable. That can't be emphasised enough. Especially during the flashback scene, where he's sleeping on his feet like a horse and he leans against Ennis, being rocked back and forth, and the way he gazes at Ennis as he rides away.... You can just see and feel the love glowing from inside him. It's undeniable. Just that look of complete and utter contentment, that love that makes his life worth living. Jake is in-f'king-credible.

During their summer on Brokeback, they're both children behind their physical years. That's obvious in this scene: "Daddy used to say that rodeo cowboys were f'k ups!" "Nuh-uh!" "Yah-huh!" "YEE-HAW!!" "Daddy was right." But by the end of the film, Jack has grown and changed as a person, whereas Ennis is slower in growth and has remained a little boy inside. His personal growth was suspended in time the day he saw Earl's corpse. He's never grown up past that fear. At times it does seem like Ennis is the more adult one, the down-to-earth realist, but actually he's more of a child than Jack is. He's much less willing to show his vulnerability. Jack is wiser when it comes to affairs of the heart - the human heart can't be denied, and he knows that. Ennis comes to this realization too late.

There's also plenty of Jack being the caregiver. When Ennis takes a spill, Jack tries to clean the wound himself. On the night of the first tent scene, Jack tried to persuade Ennis to sleep in the tent because he knew he'd be cold outside. When Ennis insisted on sleeping outside, Jack handed him a blanket and reminded him that the tent was still an option. In the second tent scene, when Ennis is hesistant, Jack is all tender and coaxing and holds him protectively, rocking him and kissing his head....I LOVE THAT!! And the lasso scene!! When Jack sees that he's given Ennis a nosebleed, he's all apologetic and tries to comfort him, giving him his sleeve to bleed on, stroking his cheek....only to get punched down. Awwww, poor Jack. And the final argument near the lake. Ennis cries and Jack instantly regrets his tirade and goes to hug him. Ennis pushes him away roughly, and Jack persists. I love that. No matter Ennis's attempts to hide his vulnerability, Jack always sees him through.

Oh, I'm tearing up. I'd better stop now.......

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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Thu Aug 10 2006 14:08:06 )   
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great stuff Santinos. really great stuff. Thank you on many levels.

I couldn't get the elk sentence and it was driving me batty. I appreciate the clarification. Now I can sleep at night. (LOL)

I did forget about the tent situation and Ennis fixing it for him. So sweet.

And Jack... yes he definitely bared caretaker in him. Other than the goofy side... and the eventual bitter side... Jack was just a sweetheart to Ennis. Always attentive, affectionate, loving, and vulnerable.



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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Thu Aug 10 2006 18:52:40 )   
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Anyone else notice this? After shooting the elk, when they stand up to leave, Ennis slaps Jack's upper thigh. Mmmmmm.

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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Thu Aug 10 2006 19:17:28 )   
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UPDATED Thu Aug 10 2006 19:18:09
Oi! I don't mean to rain on anyone's parade.....because, you know, it's my parade too.....but I just watched the reunion scene (for about the 68th time, lol) and there's a possibility that Ennis didn't whisper, "Later." I think I heard "Howyoudoin'?" He'd have said those three words fast so it sounded like "Later." It would make sense that he'd say "Hey," (nuzzle) and then "How you doin'?" I replayed it over and over and now I can't tell whether it's "Later" or "How you doin'."

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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Thu Aug 10 2006 19:33:21 )   
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Santinos... sweetie....

We need to talk!!

I have to say I just listened to it again, myself, 10 times, on different zooms, and it's my post and I'm sticking to it!!! LOL

I was open to what you had to say, but no, no, no. It's ....later.

If you want a non-verbal clue, here's my argument. He does say "hey," get's his attention, and says "later." Now if he said "how you doing?" he would looked at him after he said to see if he's doing okay. He doesn't do that. Later fits alot better. Hey... (backoff for now)... (i'll attack you later, at the hotel).

I went to law school, and if I told this to a jury.... I believe I would win!! So put the umbrella away, sweets, and have your parade!




"...later."
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Thu Aug 10 2006 19:50:46 )   
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While on my travels... I found this quote descrbing the plot. I loved it.



"The friendship flowers into an intimacy that becomes the transforming event of their lives."


"...later." 
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Thu Aug 10 2006 19:53:47 )   
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"The friendship flowers into an intimacy that becomes the transforming event of their lives."

 Ooh, that's lovely. Where'd you find that quote??

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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Thu Aug 10 2006 20:42:21 )   
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It's a piece on Ang Lee. I posted the article just now... you'll see it. It's really a great piece.


"...later." 
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Thu Aug 10 2006 22:19:16 )   
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I know that some of you are gonna thing I'm crazy. But I have to say this! Just once!


Lately when I turn on the dvd, I feel relief. Like I'm going home. That kind of feeling. I thought the more I watch, the less I'd feel. But it's not happeing like that. The times I'm not watching it, feels kinda empty. Like something's missing. It's bizarre to me. I can't understand it really. When I watch now, it's like I'm watching someone a part of me, but not quite family. I don't know. I just had to get that out.



"...later." 
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by ailuro      (Fri Aug 11 2006 00:46:53 )   
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Methinks a few of you have gone off the rails.

"later"
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Fri Aug 11 2006 06:57:31 )   
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Methinks ailuro's being a troll. You don't like our conversation, then don't read it and don't post in it. It's that simple. If you think we've gone off the rail then step back and let us be off the rail.

I wholeheartedly agree, idgeet!! That's exactly what I feel. That's exactly the hold this movie has on me. I wake up in the morning with scenes playing in my mind and I can hardly wait to get to YouTube to watch a music video/clip or to get to the DVD player to pop it in. Because when I'm watching it, I don't simply watch the characters and sympathsize with what they're going through - I feel the characters and empathsize with them as if I'm going through the same situations. I've never found it more easy to get emotionally involved with a film and its characters. This movie never loses its impact, no matter how many times I watch it. When Jack and Ennis are happy, I'm happy. When they're apart and missing each other, I ache for them to be together. When Jack is gone, I feel Ennis's loss and regret. And the lovely scenery is one I wish I could wake up to every morning - that I lived in that kind of area with gorgeous mountain and open skies so I can just look out my window to feel the phrase, "They sky's the limit." And the music! The score is just so lovely, it changes its tones to to exactly fit the right scenes - it can provoke relaxation, tension, etc., in the viewer by just a single guitar chord. Everything about this movie is powerfully understated and delivers hard impact even while stirring the soul. I love this movie beyond comprehension and I can't emphasize that enough.

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[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Thu Aug 10 2006 19:51:38 )   
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 Can't argue with that logic. lol

If, in fact, he does say, "How you doin'?" ("if" being the key word; I'm not saying he does, set the gavel aside) he'd have said it rhetorically, just for the sake of saying something, rather than simply greeting him with "Jack f'king Twist" and a ferocious kiss. But alright, it's your word against mine. Who here agrees with idgeet and who agrees with me? Choose your bandwagon wisely!! 

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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by daphne7661      (Fri Aug 11 2006 07:17:54 )   
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It's funny... I used to think he said "I gotta go..." Go figure.

But then, when idgeet threw out that "later", and then I listened, I was like, "What am I, a dummy?" Of course it's "later" - you can hear it as plain as day. I try to hear something else now, including "I gotta go" and "how ya doin'" and I just don't.

So, for now, I believe it's "later" for me....


...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Fri Aug 11 2006 07:33:01 )   
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"Later," "How you doin'," "I gotta go".....why must Ennis be so unintelligable? Tell you what, how about we mob Heath and demand to know EXACTLY what he said at that scene!! I think that's the only way to get some closure on this - ask Heath. And he'll call the authorities on us and tell the mental hospital where its escaped patients are....lol

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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by daphne7661      (Fri Aug 11 2006 07:35:33 )   
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LOL

 


...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by matt-2044     (Fri Aug 11 2006 10:50:36 )   
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Ever since this thread started I have watched that scene over and over again at full volume, much to the annoyance of my other half and I'm afraid I am in the 'later' group.

It is difficult to hear but I'm sure he does say 'later' and that moment takes my breath away each time.
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Fri Aug 11 2006 11:15:56 )   
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Hi all... I didn't sleep for two days (insomnia) but man, last night I SLEPT!! But look at all the conversations I missed.. wow. Thanks for the support everyone... on "later". Do we have enough for a parade yet?

Tell you what, how about we mob Heath and demand to know EXACTLY what he said at that scene!!]


That's a great idea!! I wish he could tell us! But short of that happening, I'll have to remain strong and steadfast in my beliefs. LOL

You're a great sport Santrinos...


"...later." 
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by ailuro      (Fri Aug 11 2006 13:01:20 )   
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Methinks ailuro's being a troll. You don't like our conversation, then don't read it and don't post in it. It's that simple. If you think we've gone off the rail then step back and let us be off the rail.


I've been here too long to be a troll.

And, I do like the conversation. Highly entertaining.


***Stepping back & watching people go off the rails.***

Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Fri Aug 11 2006 13:34:31 )   
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Oi. Good to know you're enjoying the freak show. Have some popcorn while you're at it. The unconventional show of sentiment we convey here is something called passion that's come to be frowned upon in society - can't even hop on a couch in joy on national television just because you can without people calling the men in white coats. (Yes, I do believe Tom Cruise got unjustly shunned for that.) Nowadays those of us who feel life stronger than the average person deserve to be in the looney bin. Now that's a goddamn bitch of an unsatisfactory world.

 

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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Fri Aug 11 2006 14:17:19 )   
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UPDATED Fri Aug 11 2006 15:20:52
Here's even more this and that....ness.

I was watching it earlier and this really stuck out. When they're just starting out on the job, Ennis is cooking, Jack is yawning and complaining, "Can't wait till I get my own place so I don't gotta put up with Joe Aguirre's crap no more." Ennis replies, "I'm savin' for a place myself." Just something in his tone - it's a few octaves higher than his usual throaty mumble - makes it really seem like he's surprised/glad at having found that he had something in common with Jack. And then he makes a point to tell Jack that he's getting married as soon as he leaves, and his tone gets slightly lower. It seemed like he mentioned Alma as a reminder to himself. Right there he's aware of his attraction to Jack and is trying to ignore/resist it. So subtle yet so obvious.

Another subtlty - the rodeo f'k-up scene. Jack asks, "Your brother and sister give a rap about you?" and Ennis really opens up, telling Jack about his life and how his siblings married and abandoned him, etc. While he's telling Jack all this, notice that when he pauses he pushes out the sides of his mouth with his tongue. It's as if he's poking around in there in search of words. Just that little subtly says so much about Ennis.

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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Fri Aug 11 2006 15:04:03 )   
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Just something in his tone - it's a few octaves higher than his usual throaty mumble - makes it really seem like he's surprised/glad at having found that he had something in common with Jack.


You may have something here. I think the only other times his voice MAY go up is when he says "we were fishing buddies" and after the reunion kiss and they're upstairs talking about kids and such he says "yeah" when Jack says he has a ki (and we know how excited he was in that scene!)


While he's telling Jack all this, notice that when he pauses he pushes out the sides of his mouth with his tongue. It's as if he's poking around in there in search of words.


I'm sorry, but I don't think it's that. I put on my continuity thread that he just ate those beans, and he's getting them unstuck from between his teeth.


Also... it's not....

"Your brother and sister give a rap about you?"

It's...

"Your brother and sister do right by you?"


But keep em coming santinos....

"...later." 
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Fri Aug 11 2006 15:55:25 )   
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Hell yes I'll keep them coming!!

After Ennis and Jack part ways after their summer on Brokeback, Ennis breaks down in the alley and momentarily gets into a praying position. Then the priest's recitation from him and Alma's wedding comes in a voice-over. The scene cuts to Ennis in a tuxedo, reciting something about resisting sin and deliverance from evil. Now that speaks volumes. That's the beginning of emphasis on how Ennis lives a life of obligation, heeding to other's standards and never following his heart. Heeding the standard of marriage by the Methodist church was his deliverence from "sin" (i.e. his relationship with Jack). He loved Jack and hated himself for it, so he was seeking religion/marriage as a way of salvation.

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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by malina-5     (Fri Aug 11 2006 16:04:50 )   
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here's another miscellaneous thing. it's also probably been posted before. The first couple of times I saw it, I wondered why Ennis lied to Alma about Jack being "someone you cowboyed with" - Ennis says no. He says, "we was fishing buddies". Why did he say that? Well obviously, he was already planning a way that he and Jack could get away together. Did he come up with it on spur of the moment, in those long two seconds in between Alma's question and his response? I think no. I think he'd been thinking of it before, during the four years, what he'd do if he heard from Jack again. And that in itself is so sweet.. and a rare, though subtle, example of Ennis taking charge in their relationship.
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Fri Aug 11 2006 17:06:28 )   
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It took me a while, but after watching it for the umteenth time, I was struck by the parallels between the two scenes where Ennis and Jack are observed together in moments of passion.

Alma sees them in an embrace and says nothing until much later. Aguirre also waits to say something, although each character has plenty of opportunities to do so. Alma seizes upon a "gotcha" moment to embarrass Ennis and Aguirre slaps Jack in the face with his "stem the rose" remark. Ennis never tells Jack what Alma said to him, nor does Jack ever tell Ennis what Aguirre said to him.


"...later." 
There's yer bookends right there...   
  by toycoon      (Fri Aug 11 2006 17:11:34 )   
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I never even noticed that one!
Re: There's yer bookends right there...   
  by idgeet     (Fri Aug 11 2006 17:36:20 )   
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yeah, my bookends, but you're not allowed to answer that one on the game, ok, toycoon. i wanna see if anyone else can figure it out if they don't read my post here....

I have yet another observation:

Ever notice that Ennis tells Alma... We was fishing buddies (or something like that) and then fastforward to Jack and Randall, where Randall wants to go to a cabin under the guise of being "fishing buddies."

What da ya think?



"...later." 
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Fri Aug 11 2006 17:29:50 )   
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That's a good one, idgeet. I never thought of that.

Major difference: Alma's nicer than Aguirre. The only reason she brought up the subject was because of Ennis's "once burned" remark (which was just plain mean, much as I love him). All Jack did to get provoke Aguirre was come by looking for Ennis. Alma kept the secret because she still cared for Ennis she knew what a good person he was aside from his infidelity. All Aguirre saw was queer folk and couldn't get past that. It's a wonder he didn't make a major case out of it.

Come to think of it, Aguirre wasn't nearly as malicious as he could have been. He could have spread Ennis and Jack's secret all around town so no one would hire them, and/or arrange a lynch mob, but he didn't. You think he would've if Ennis and Jack had come by for another summer as herders on Brokeback?

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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by ailuro      (Fri Aug 11 2006 17:45:00 )   
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Only becomes a freak show santinos, when people continually rehash the same thing over & over again.
Each & every topic for the past week as been covered numerous times on this forum. All it takes is a very short search to find them.
But people have this need to start a new thread, instead of just adding their thoughts to the existing one. I suppose its one way to get noticed.
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Fri Aug 11 2006 19:28:36 )   
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When Jack asks Ennis, as he is gazing into the starry sky..."anything interesting up there in Heaven?" Ennis looks utterly peaceful (and grinning a tad) it's like all the pain and lonliness in his life is gone for a moment and he is smiling and says..."I was just sending up a prayer of thanks..."

Jack says "for what?" and as usual, Ennis's brain doesn't let his heart talk and says.."for you forgeting to bring that Harmonica, I'm enjoying the peace and quiet"

That was absolutely flawless acting in my opinion. His whole body and smile says what a thousand words couldn't. Hs is finally in that place, with that person with whom he's supposed to be there with.

This is Heaven for Ennis.

Perhaps this is Ennis's moment of complete and utter happiness... as the "dozy embrace" was Jack's moment of complete and utter happiness.

This is also one of the very few times that Ennis is just so relaxed, laying on his back, looking staight up into the sky. And when begins to tell Jack that they can't be together, he returns to a sitting position, puts his hat back on, he's looking down and away from Jack as he talks, and UNFORTUNATELY, the old Ennis is back.

"...later." 
edgeet, I reckon you've found the bookend for the'dozy embrace'   
  by toycoon      (Fri Aug 11 2006 20:22:23 )   
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UPDATED Fri Aug 11 2006 20:33:02
I've been thinking about this very scene all day. Ennis says, "I'm enjoying the peace and quiet"
It is the only time that Ennis has any peace throughout the movie. Some people don't realize when one is Gay and constantly trying to hide that from the rest of the world, one constantly hears negative remarks echoing through your mind. What would my parents think? What will my friends say? etc.
Only when he is with Jack on a 'fishing trip', are the negative voices silent. Peace and quiet.

Just curious... When was the first time you saw Brokeback Mountain?
Re: edgeet, I reckon you've found the bookend for the'dozy embrace'   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Fri Aug 11 2006 20:31:31 )   
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Someone - I don't remember who - said that the motel scene was a bookend for the dozy embrace. The way Jack they're entwined in the hotel and the way they're hugging in the flashback are similar.

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Re: edgeet, I reckon you've found the bookend for the'dozy embrace'   
  by idgeet     (Fri Aug 11 2006 20:38:47 )   
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I saw it originally when it was release (Dec). I probably saw it 3 times at the theater.

And then just bought the DVD this month. I got it at Walmart. It was a two dvd special. Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind... and Brokeback Mountain. I got a great deal...




"...later." 
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Tue Aug 15 2006 07:52:50 )   
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UPDATED Tue Aug 15 2006 09:25:14
That was absolutely flawless acting in my opinion. His whole body and smile says what a thousand words couldn't. Hs is finally in that place, with that person with whom he's supposed to be there with.

How could Heath not have won the Oscar!? The way he gazes at the sky, it's as if he's searching for something, trying to comprehend who it is in Heaven who would be so generous to him to send him Jack.

Another moment of flawless acting is the second tent scene. Heath just melts me there, hugging the hat to himself, looking all scared and hesitant, trying to look Jack in the eye. The way he resists the kiss, then gives in, then closes his eyes as he lies with Jack, as if not wanting to know that this is a man he's with. And the way he feels Jack, groping blindly, like a widdle baby, and the look on his face, the vulnerability.....just makes me melt into a puddle of goo 

And when begins to tell Jack that they can't be together, he returns to a sitting position, puts his hat back on, he's looking down and away from Jack as he talks, and UNFORTUNATELY, the old Ennis is back.

That's not the "old Ennis." That's the child inside Ennis. When Ennis saw the gay man that his own father possibly murdered, his personal growth was suspended in time. He's never grown past that trauma. He remained 9 years old for 30 years. From his soulful eyes you can tell that there's a child inside that man. Jack senses this, and he can tell this child needs comforting, so he reaches over and strokes his face.

I don't think it's Ennis's brain not allowing him to say what's in his heart. It's not that he doesn't want to tell Jack he loves him. literally can't say what's in his heart. Remember in the motel scene, where Jack asks, "What about you?" Ennis says, "Me?" Then tries to get words out but can't. He simply doesn't know how to put his feelings into words. I'm certain he has some form of anxiety disorder like I do. He has plenty of symptoms.

I remember someone mentioned this bookend: the second tent scene, Ennis sits outside near the campfire, clenching his hands together, gathering himself to get into the tent. Then he pushes his hands down on his knees, literally forcing his legs to stand him up. Notice how he does that same thing with his legs with Alma Jr. in the last scene, just before he tells her that he can attend her wedding. It sure takes a lot out of Ennis to show affection, even to his daughter. He is, as Heath himself says, "a closed fist, unable to express himself."

"Jack, I swear...."

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Fri Aug 11 2006 20:41:06 )   
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I just found this out!! Ennis is the name of a city in Texas! Wow. Annie Proulx gave him the name because Ennis means "island," but still, that's interesting.

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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Sat Aug 12 2006 06:57:57 )   
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Something I need to get out: it seems like every time I watch this movie or read the short story, I hate Jack's father more and more. I cannot stand that man. All that abuse and neglect he inflicted on Jack, not being willing to carry out Jack's dying wishes and have his ashes spread on Brokeback.....and I absolutely hate how helpless Jack's mother looks in that scene. You can tell she's way too tolerant of his abuse. Everyone seems to like Jack's mother, but I hate how she seems unwilling to stand up to him for Jack's sake. Mr. Twist said, "Jack's wishes, they never come to pass," and that's because of HIM, because he refuses to let Jack's dying wish come to pass, and Mrs. Twist doesn't care enough to stand up to him for Jack's sake.....argh, I'm furious just writing this down.

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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Sat Aug 12 2006 10:33:58 )   
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UPDATED Sat Aug 12 2006 10:36:26
Mr. Twist said, "Jack's wishes, they never come to pass," and that's because of HIM, because he refuses to let Jack's dying wish come to pass, and Mrs. Twist doesn't care enough to stand up to him for Jack's sake.


I have a different take on this. Yes, Dad Twist is a jerk. But not Jack's mom. Even so, many many families have this particular disagreement after the death of a love one. Death tends to bring out the worst in people sometimes. Dad Twist truly believes that Jacks place is with his family. He's not listening to anything else.

How would you like it if someone you never met before showed up at your door and offered to take your only son's remains and scatter them on some hillside? Would you bring up the "half-baked idea" that involved that son's dream, then twist it in such a way as to punish your son's partner who thwarted that dream? Maybe. That's what close relatives do sometimes at times like this.

As for Mom Twist, I think she's a product of the times. She's the submissive, dutiful wife, yet, I think she's stronger than you think. I have to believe that Ennis' visit was Mom Twist's first opportunity to have a real connection with someone who truly loved her son... and I believe she knew the whole story, knew exactly who was visiting on that sad day. The shirts became the most valuable part of her son that remained on earth -- the shirts which symbolized her son's ability to experience a love which she had likely never had the opportunity to feel or act on in her own life.



"...later." 
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Sat Aug 12 2006 10:50:05 )   
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Even so.....have you read the short story? I don't think for a minute that he ever loved Jack. Someone who would whip a kid with a belt and then urinate on him - URINATE ON HIM, unfathomably - as punishment can never, in any way, have good intentions for that kid's well-being. Death tends to bring out out the worst in people? Well, anyone can tell from that incident that it doesn't take much to bring out the worst in Mr. Twist. He had no idea what Brokeback meant to Jack, and even if he didn't he wouldn't have cared. Anything involving Jack's dreams he would've twisted around to make it seem as if Jack was a fool for ever having those dreams. It was sweet of Jack's mother to purposely guide Ennis to the shirt shrine, though. Ennis expressed a sincere sorrow for Jack's death, but what did John Twist say? He told Ennis about Jack's plans to bring him to Lightning Flat, and "...then this Spring - he's got another fella gonna come up here...some ranch neighbor 'a his from down in Texas..." Now that hit Ennis like a slap in the face. His eyes went dull, his nostrils flared, his mouth twitched - and I just wanted to clout Jack's father for purposely hurting him with that information. Now that was downright sadistic.

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I think of the couple in the painting 'American Gothic'...   
  by toycoon      (Sat Aug 12 2006 11:34:44 )   
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UPDATED Sat Aug 12 2006 19:21:58
It is incredibly brave for Ma Twist to invite Ennis upstairs to Jack's room. Don't discount that for a moment. I absolutely love this sequence from begining to end. It is so powerful and loaded with pathos.

Ma steps out of the house to meet Ennis at the door. How many hundreds of times has she argued with her husband about the circumstances behind Jack's death, the details of his burial and his life itself perhaps on that day alone. When Ennis shows up, she has to get out of the house just for a breath of fresh air and to see a sympathetic face.
When Pa says, " ...his ashes are going in the family plot", she raises her hand to her throat. This man is suffocating her. Her only son, Jack was her reprive from Pa's dreadful oppression.

John Twist IS a terrible sadist and she takes the opportunity of Ennis' bereavement visit to stand up to his tyranny at least for the time. Who knows what happened to her after Ennis left.
Re: This and That   
  by idgeet     (Sat Aug 12 2006 14:41:30 )   
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UPDATED Sat Aug 12 2006 14:43:25
why didn't they bring up why Ennis didn't get drafted... only Jack....??

"...later." 
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Sun Aug 13 2006 16:00:43 )   
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Yes, Dad Twist is a jerk.

Now that qualifies for the understatement of the century.

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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Sun Aug 13 2006 16:03:04 )   
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we just have different views on it, that's all.



"...later." 
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Sat Aug 12 2006 11:21:28 )   
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Whispered dialogue!!

The first tent scene - as Jack is undoing his pants, he whispers, "F_ _k me." Someone (I think it was Daphne) heard Ennis saying "F_ _ k" twice, but I don't hear it. Anyone else hear that?

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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Sat Aug 12 2006 11:30:24 )   
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no

"...later." 
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Sat Aug 12 2006 17:19:08 )   
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Here's something that someone else (I can't remember who) posted a while back.

Here's sort of a reverse-parallel/bookend....thing. The reunion scene. Ennis anxiously sits by his window all day waiting for Jack, smoking, drinking, till he's slumped on the couch holding his forehead, looking drained, as if he's given up all hope of Jack ever arriving. Then as soon as he hears the truck pull up, he sits up, tenses, and looks out the window and you can see the joy surging in him. Then he bounds outside and down the stairs, giddy as a little boy, and collides with Jack in a big bear hug.

Then there's the divorce rejection scene. Jack drives fourteen hours, singing and whistling, and by the time he arrives to Ennis's house, he's smiling the biggest, fullest smile ever, barely able to contain his exuberance as he hugs Ennis. Then within a minute he's shot down, his energy drains, and he drives away crying.

Those scenes are opposites in way. Ennis starts out drained and hopeless and becomes elated - Jack arrives elated and leaves devestated. Oi, that's what Jack was thinking. When he drove up to see Ennis after the divorce, he expected a greeting like the one years ago - he'd pull up, they'd hug and kiss and everything would be alright. Poor Jack.

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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Sat Aug 12 2006 17:25:13 )   
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That's a good observation Santinos. My heart sinks for Jack as soon as he says "well, here I am..."


"...later." 
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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Sat Aug 12 2006 20:03:40 )   
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This/that parallel.....

When Ennis was nine he was shown the bloody corpse of a crudely castrated gay man. The morning after Ennis sleeps with Jack, he sees the bloody corpse of a sheep with its innards strewn out, laid raw and bare as a reminder/omen of the consequences. No wonder soon afterwards he told Jack, "I ain't queer." Who could blame him, really.

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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by CowboysInLove     (Sun Aug 13 2006 08:22:59 )   
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I have to say I just listened to it again, myself, 10 times, on different zooms, and it's my post and I'm sticking to it!!! LOL


i have to be with you idgeet. you're the bomb for figuring out the later. i can't believe you caught that! thanx man!
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Sun Aug 13 2006 14:42:53 )   
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UPDATED Sun Aug 13 2006 14:43:34
I just realized this today.

When Ennis recieves the postcard from Jack, he doesn't want to mention Brokeback Mountain, so he tells Alma that they were fishing buddies.

At the end, when he's talking to Lureen, he's comfortable with telling her that he and Jack herded sheep on Brokeback years ago.

Finally he's letting himself acknowledge Brokeback as their personal haven. As Jack said, it was all they had. It was all they had....

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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Sun Aug 13 2006 15:23:31 )   
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good observation santinos. damn good. you're right. if he was still as uncomfortable, i would see him saying jack worked up there one summer, not the two of them together. but now that jack's gone, that is all he has left. brokeback mountain. thank god ennis found and took the shirts. otherwise he wouldn't have had anything left. at least he can live out the rest of his days knowing jack loved him immensely.




"...later." 
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by littlewing1957      (Sun Aug 13 2006 16:12:58 )   
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<<otherwise he wouldn't have had anything left. at least he can live out the rest of his days knowing jack loved him immensely.>>

I hope this knowledge comforts rather than haunts him.
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by SnickerD      (Sun Aug 13 2006 18:53:46 )   
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Its got to comfort him, otherwise my comfort zone for the boys life would take a heavy blow for my own personal reasons!

Gotta Love *Our* Boys!
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Mon Aug 14 2006 16:22:20 )   
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I've been thinking alot about the shirts lately.

The shirts are such a powerful image the film!! Jack took Ennis' shirt. I think after the punch, Jack's hopes of keeping in touch with Ennis after the summer were slim to none, in his mind! He took Ennis' shirt, so he could at least have a piece of Ennis. Just seeing those shirts in his closet over the years (and being unable to throw them out) might have been the reason Jack finally got up the nerve to contact Ennis again. What do you think?

These shirts are absolutely one of the most powerful images I've ever seen in a story or in a movie.


"...later." 
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by matt-2044     (Mon Aug 14 2006 23:09:37 )   
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UPDATED Mon Aug 14 2006 23:10:04
The symbolism about the shirts is sometimes so powerful as to be overwhelming.

It was one of those things I missed when I saw the film the first time as I think I was in shock at how good this film was and it was thanks to threads on this database that I learned that the shirts had been swapped in the two scenes.

So very, very powerful and so very, very heart wrenching.

But it makes the film a even more better than it was.
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Tue Aug 15 2006 09:17:20 )   
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The symbolism about the shirts is sometimes so powerful as to be overwhelming.

Everything about the film is overwhelming. You know, the switching of the shirts was Heath's idea. That's how well he knows Ennis. All those years, Jack held on to his relationship with Ennis, despite Ennis not being as openly affectionate as he wanted. When Jack is gone, Ennis holds Jack in his memory forever, as a reminder of how fragile life really is, and how you must treasure what you've got when you've got it.

"Jack, I swear...."
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Tue Aug 15 2006 11:50:00 )   
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you are on a roll santinos. i think you have great insight when it comes to ennis and jack. keep expressing yourself... i'll always read.


"...later." 
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Tue Aug 15 2006 19:31:48 )   
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i decided to use this thread (my thread) to express something i'm feeling today. i've always been touched by this film, that's a given. but today i'm actually feeling depressed about it. ennis and jack were in my dreams last night. i was trying to tell them that if they don't straighten up (not straight as in opposite of gay) they will life a life of longing. if they got it together, they would be happy together. i kept tell them that most people don't ever find a love like they have.

then the dream went in a different direction. all of a sudden, i was on brokeback mountain. i think i went there so i could be where they were, where they fell in love. i was walking around an area that looked like their camp site. i looked down and i saw a stone. it said:

My Friend, My Love, My Soul
I swear I will love you forever, Lil' Darlin.
E.

When I woke up, I felt so depressed. That gloomy feeling just hasn't left since.

I know... crazy... but i can't help it.


"...later." 
I guess you didn't get the job...   
  by toycoon      (Tue Aug 15 2006 20:20:51 )   
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you interviewed for last week?

Well at least Jack made it back to Brokeback Mountain. You confirmed it in your dream.
Re: I guess you didn't get the job...   
  by CowboysInLove     (Thu Aug 17 2006 10:18:00 )   
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bump

great thread

[TOoP/Bruce]

Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Tue Aug 15 2006 07:40:03 )   
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Here's a bit of this/that.......fanfiction!! I usually don't like fanfiction, but I'm loving this one!

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3047182/1/

It's an AU fanfic. After reuniting, Jack and Ennis divorce their wives and move in together, and they raise Bobby on their own. Everyone stays in character and it's all very believable. I highly recommend it. And this as well:

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3083725/1/

Ennis gets granted a second chance with Jack. I like it so far.

"Jack, I swear...."
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Tue Aug 15 2006 08:13:21 )   
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[Observation]

Ennis is so defensive/protective, always trying to be a tough guy. During the second tent scene, he gave into Jack, making it clear that he truly needed him, that he needed to be held and kissed like that. During the lasso scene, when he gets a nosebleed and Jack is trying to comfort him, Ennis makes it clear that he doesn't want or need Jack's sympathy.

The fourth of July picnic. When those biker dudes were being @ssholes, insulting him and his family, he didn't hesitate to beat them to a pulp. I love how protective he is of Alma and the girls.

Then the Thanksgiving dinner, when Alma reveals that she knew about him and Jack, Ennis could barely contain himself when she insulted Jack. Ennis reacted out of fear that Alma would tell someone and word would get around and Jack would get lynched. When he gripped Alma's arm and raised his fist, he was telling her, "Keep your mouth shut, you don't know Jack, and you have no idea what we've been through, keeping us a secret all these years...." Fortunately he was sensible enough to leave the house before he hit her. He went out and vented his rage on a random guy. He knew he wouldn't forgive himself if he hit Alma, even if it was for Jack.

Come to think of it....he didn't hesitate to punch Jack, but he managed to restain himself from hitting Alma. Ennis has a tendency to hurt only the ones he cares about most. Maybe he learned from Jack - he regretted hitting Jack, so he knew he'd regret hitting Alma. Wow. His character growth is so gradual and so subtle that it's barely noticable.

"Jack, I swear...."
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by HeathandMichelle     (Thu Aug 17 2006 12:18:22 )   
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When Alma was waiting for Ennis to return after the motel scene, there are two items on the table. One a Phallic symbol and a small empty cup.

Santinos, hitting a man is much different than hitting a women. Comparing them is ridiculous.
Is the salt shaker the phallic symbol?   
  by toycoon      (Thu Aug 17 2006 19:27:07 )   
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Does the empty cup represent the way Alma feels?
Something New   
  by idgeet     (Thu Aug 17 2006 22:59:56 )   
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i'm watching the film right now... and i noticed something that's kinda cute. if you watch jack and ennis walking to the bar... they are walking in perfect unison. i have no idea if it means something...but it's kinda adorable.

the screenplay specificall states that ennis follows jack. the wording goes like this:

JACK and ENNIS walk down Signal's main street, headed for the bar. JACK leads the way.

i found it kinda interesting that it would state it that way... jack leading the way...

"...later." 
Re: Something New   
  by idgeet     (Thu Aug 17 2006 23:12:48 )   
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have you ever really watched the look on jack's face that first night away from the camp? at first, i thought it was just a small glance. but now, after watching it a couple of times, i've come to the conclusion that jack is already pretty smitten. it looks as if he's aready thinking, hmmmm, i like that ennis. it's a kind of far away look. it's kinda sweet.


"...later." 
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Re: Something New   
  by idgeet     (Fri Aug 18 2006 17:16:54 )   
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But notice also that Jack walks on the inside of the posts while Ennis walks on the outside of the posts.


i never did notice that one. thanks. what do you think it means, if anything?

"...later." 
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Re: Something New   
  by idgeet     (Fri Aug 18 2006 19:23:39 )   
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oooooh. i like that! thanks basicgrate.

"...later." 
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basicgrate, this has made me especially sad today...   
  by toycoon      (Sat Aug 19 2006 10:53:11 )   
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UPDATED Sat Aug 19 2006 10:55:26
Alma looking all perky, waiting to meet this old friend of her husband, probably happy that her husband actually has a friend... then WHAM! Her whole life changes in an instant.


I suppose that is why Alma stayed silent for 15 years. It has taken her that long to process the information.
Re: Something New   
  by idgeet     (Sat Aug 19 2006 12:18:11 )   
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thanks basicgrate.

i'm watching right now... and i came across the scene by the fire. i was just a smiling big, when ennis made his comment about thanking god he didn't bring the harmonica. i always smile at that moment and i love the smile on ennis' face and his little wink. but like you said, then it got sad....

jack wanting a sweet life with ennis and ennis nipping that one in the bud. poor jack.

but i also noticed jack's expression the moment before he said something. it looked like he had to muster up some courage before speaking. he really put himself out there again, didn't he? i love that about jack.

"...later." 
Re: Something New   
  by idgeet     (Sat Aug 19 2006 14:12:32 )   
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did you know that the shirts were auctioned off this year and the person payed more than $100,000 for them?? they said it was like the "ruby slippers" of this generation.

"...later." 
Re: Something New   
  by matt-2044     (Sat Aug 19 2006 15:15:26 )   
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Wow.

Would love to have that sort of money to bid for them.

Would have certainly done so.

Imagine each time you open your own closet and having those shirts entwined together on a hanger.

Wow
Re: Something New   
  by idgeet     (Sat Aug 19 2006 15:26:36 )   
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Imagine each time you open your own closet and having those shirts entwined together on a hanger.


that would be phenomenal. i almost can't imagine it.

"...later." 
Re: Something New   
  by matt-2044     (Sat Aug 19 2006 15:55:27 )   
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I'm trying not to but each time I think of it.....

....damn, tears again.


Re: Something New   
  by daphne7661      (Sun Aug 20 2006 07:08:01 )   
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Ya know something, basicgrate, you have just helped explain to me why this movie has affected me so. Aside from the genious of this film, and its acting and directing and photography, for personal reasons, many of us here and elsewhere who have been bitten by the BBM Bug and been so overwhelmed by it try to figure out just "why" we, individually, are so moved.

Well, for me, I think I just got it. Moments of sheer delight and happiness followed by disappointment and devastating decisions which swiftly quell that delight! That has been an everpresent overcast in my life...

Thank you!


...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...
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Re: Something New   
  by idgeet     (Mon Aug 21 2006 17:28:18 )   
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i never understood the folks that say this movie is slow paced or boring or both. it's not an action film... this movie and even this board has kept my attention longer than any other film... ever. and i love movies. big time.

i actually wished the movie would keep going. i didn't want it to end. and of course, i wanted more of the summer of '63. i just wanted more of ennis and jack together. i forgot i was watching a film. i felt like i was there with them.

i know.. corny. what can i say?? i'm a sap.



"...later." 
Re: Something New   
  by CowboysInLove     (Tue Aug 22 2006 18:53:47 )   
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idgeet: I SENT YOU A PRIVATE MESSAGE!!!!
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by CowboysInLove     (Sat Aug 26 2006 19:55:51 )   
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Have to save this one!

I was reading this thread and the "where's Waldo" is pretty funny. I actually thought of that too.
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Mon Aug 28 2006 15:45:49 )   
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worth bumping

Does anyone else giggle like mad during Ennis's nude scene? The look on Jack's face is just adorable! It's as if he's thinking, Don't look, don't look, don't turn around....take a deep breath....get your mind outta the gutter...count to ten... And then he sort of shifts his position, as if squirming to conceal a boner.

 

"The bitterest tears shed over graves are for words left unsaid and deeds left undone."
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Mon Aug 28 2006 20:58:14 )   
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yes, too funny... santinos!

"...later." 
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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Santinos_Bridesmade     (Wed Sep 6 2006 14:35:44 )   
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Ears!! Cheek!! 

Reunion kiss!! Jack holds Ennis's head and Ennis's ear is in-between Jack's fingers!! As they're kissing, Ennis strokes Jack's cheek, then holds his ear. When Jack opens his eyes and clenches his hand before kissing Ennis back, he seems to grab Ennis by the ears!!

Later, after Ennis tells Jack about Earl and Rich, Jack reaches over and pulls Ennis's ear, then strokes his cheek!!

Ears!! Ears, then cheek! Cheek, then ears!!

 

"The bitterest tears shed over graves are for words left unsaid and deeds left undone."
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by CowboysInLove     (Fri Sep 8 2006 23:23:42 )   
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One of the best threads. Hey Idgeet!!
Bumping
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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by skessa     (Wed Oct 4 2006 23:11:56 )   
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bump for later

i'm a non-native speaker. if you find my language awkward – send me a private message!
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Tue Oct 17 2006 02:03:22 )   
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hello all....

thanks cowboy for the compliment. i'm actually bumping my own thread!

"...later." 
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by malina-5     (Tue Oct 17 2006 02:24:36 )   
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Hi idgeet! How's it going?
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by littlewing1957      (Tue Oct 17 2006 08:25:29 )   
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<<hello all....>>

Idgeet, it is so good to see you here!  I've missed you, girl! What's happening?
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by daphne7661      (Tue Oct 17 2006 08:30:41 )   
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Idgeet!!! Are you back?



...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Tue Oct 17 2006 23:30:02 )   
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yea... you could say i'm back. i'm doing good. i'm working alot... and my mom's condo just sold, so in about a month i'm gonna move out of horrible texas!

i kinda got addicted to another movie, temporily... but it's out of my system and i'm back to our boys... ennis and jack.

if you're wondering... the other movie is "the departed." i must say it's an excellent flick. anyone else think so?

nice to "see" ya all!!!


"...later." 
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by daphne7661      (Wed Oct 18 2006 05:38:55 )   
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Well, nice to see you back here, idgeet!

I saw "The Departed" as well. Excellent!! And it was shot here in my hometown (Boston). I remember seeing all of the cast and crew all around town filming last year. It was exciting around here for awhile.

I only saw it once, but I was riveted. I did, however, manage to miss a couple of things and need to see it again.

I was very excited about Leonardo's performance! I thought he was the best and deserves an Oscar nod - he was extremely natural in this role, showing excellent emotional depth....

Well, hope to see around here again soon.... We've missed you!!!

Daphne


...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by ka_baerchen     (Wed Oct 18 2006 04:29:32 )   
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UPDATED Wed Oct 18 2006 11:54:57
very interesting analysis...

I'm adding two very important scenes where you can actually see the strong feelings Ennis has towards Jack. (to contradict the somehow universalized assessment that Ennis is not completely gay...)

Before the reunion, when Ennis is super nervous to finally meet Jack again. I mean, you never ever see that generally collected calm person to show this emotionally outside.
I really love the scene when you can hear the car outside and Ennis moves quickly to the window while the camera captures the impish, full of expectation smile on his face, you never see this kind of joyful expression of Ennis again in the entire movie, even if he is together with Jack and nobody can see them he is kind of collected...

And of course the big talk where Jack admits the Mexico visit. Ennis is completly in anger, the overall reactions he developes in emotional situations that he can't handle (4th of July scene).
Here you can clearly see that Ennis really loves Jack, not just caring or feeling for him, but unreserved love. He is ok with Jack living with his wife and son, but completly pissed about Jack making out with other guys.
I also think, Ang Lee intended Jack to admitting it with very intention and planning to tell Ennis, in case he was repelling again towards Jack (Jack always revealed how much he loves Ennis and that he can't live without him and Ennis never responded accordingly), to have the final insight into how much Ennis actually loves him.


Two great scenes!
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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by jaaguir     (Fri Nov 3 2006 10:43:41 )   
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OK, my two cents:

Aguirre is a spanish name, yes. I ought to know more about this because it's my own last name (I live in Spain, hence my bad english), but I never thought much about it. I think it's originary from right were I live, Basque country, which is on Spain's north coast. There are plenty of sheep here too.

The character on the movie called 'the basque' was surely one of the many men that emigrated from here to all of the American continent along the twentieth century. He is shown with a funny accent so he must be a relatively recent inmigrant.

But the Joe Aguirre character must be a second generation basque inmigrant (like son of one of the many men who went there around the spanish civil war in the thirties).

Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by True_Oracle_of_Phoenix      (Fri Nov 3 2006 11:13:58 )   
      
jaaguir,

I appreciate your taking time to share your insight into basque cultural component to this film.

Also, in the back of my mind (from Spanish classes I took long ago), I vaguely remembered Aguirre was a "bird name" but I had forgotten it meant "eagle".

(By the way, your English is quite fine. Much better than my Spanish...)

Muchas gracias!
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Shasta254     (Fri Nov 3 2006 19:41:38 )   
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I think the reason Ennis and Jack don't talk before going into the trailer is that Ennis thinks only one guy is going to get hired. He doesn't want to be too friendly to someone whose job he may be taking. I think Jack would've talked to Ennis anyway if Ennis had given him any opening. Ennis maybe saw Jack as competition for a job that he really needed.
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by jaaguir     (Sat Nov 4 2006 04:17:08 )   
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Hi True

First, thanks for answering.

Actually 'eagle' is said 'águila' in spanish. I don't want to bore you, but the thing is here in the Basque country we have our own language, which is older than latin and has nothing to do with it, unlike spanish, which is a derivation from roman latin. In fact it's not known where the basque language comes from.

I just looked this up on the internet (I guess I should be ashamed I didn't do it before), but it seems 'Aguirre' is an old basque word that is not used in today's basque language (therefore I didn't know it had a meaning), and was used to refer to the highest point in the hills from where you could watch the entire sorrounding area. Many houses were built in those places (I'm talking like year 800 a.c.), and the houses were called like that.

It's quite striking that Aguirre watches the boys with binoculars from a place similar to that, and it's also a person with power over their lifes, like he's in a place 'higher' than them. Maybe Annie Proulx did some research.


Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by ClancyPantsNasty     (Sat Nov 4 2006 06:06:21 )   
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Hi jaaguir --

I have seen both of your posts on this subject. Thank you for them. They provide a lot of good background information. I have studied the Basque language development and it is fascinating. As you said, researchers have been unable to determine its origins. It is, by the way, a very beautiful language.


"Maybe Annie Proulx did some research."

Yes. In fact, she did a lot of research including determining exactly what kinds of rocks and plants are present in the various locations she describes. I also believe she chose the names for her characters symbolically. As you said, Aguirre's name seems to fit him. As does Ennis' name: Ennis Del Mar -- Island of (or in) the Sea. And Jack Twist -- twist descriptive of the thigh and buttocks muscles developed by a bronc rider. Alma means "soul" and it seems appropriate for her as she was a mirror reflecting Ennis' soul and she provided the "home" in their home. Lureen means "pale faced, bleached out, cold-as-ice stone heart" in ancient Mayan. (OK, I made the last one up. Just a little levity...)





Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by latjoreme     (Sat Nov 4 2006 07:43:11 )   
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Hi idgeet and Daphne,

I was very excited about Leonardo's performance! I thought he was the best and deserves an Oscar nod - he was extremely natural in this role, showing excellent emotional depth....


I saw "The Departed" and liked it, too. And Daphne, I agree with you. I thought Leonardo's performance was the best thing in the movie. Everybody was good: Matt Damon and Mark Wahlberg and Vera Farmiga (whom I'd never seen before) and other people, too. And Jack Nicholson was entertaining. But, crazy as this might sound, I thought Leo was better than Jack.

(I've thought Leo was a great actor since "Gilbert Grape," but lately had kind of lost interest in him, until now.)

'Lureen', may refer to a 'lure'...   
  by toycoon      (Sat Nov 4 2006 10:21:54 )   
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1. In angling, a decoy for animals; an artificial bait.
2. Anything that invites by the prospect of advantage or pleasure.
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by jaaguir     (Mon Nov 6 2006 06:00:13 )   
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Hahaha... I bet all Lureen fans out there enjoyed your little joke...

Eskerrik asko.

And I think toycoon might be right about Lureen.
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Mon Nov 6 2006 23:45:04 )   
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just saying hi... i can't believe this thread's still going strong. i think it is fabulous.

hey daphne... i moved to boston in 2001 and was there thru 2004. i love that city. and i very much enjoyed watching boston as a character in the departed.

leo did do an outstanding job... but i think mark wahlberg stole the show in each of his scenes.


and jag... i'm castilian!

"...later." 
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by jaaguir     (Tue Nov 7 2006 09:59:14 )   
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<< and jag... i'm castilian! >>

Well, that's a surprise. OK, suddenly now I feel SO stupid writing in english. But I guess as long as this are public posts we should write in english, I don't know.

It's nice that there are more spanish people taking part in this board. I think I'm going to read some of your posts if I have the time, and check out what's your take on brokeback... haha.
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by toycoon      (Tue Nov 7 2006 14:55:58 )   
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Hola jaaguir,
I love Spain. I want to retire to Barcelona when I'm ready. I'm only 44 years old but I'd like to retire while I'm still (somewhat) young.
How does the general Spanish public feel about Brokeback Mountain? The Spanish can be rather consevative when it comes to sexual matters.
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Tue Nov 7 2006 22:25:02 )   
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i'm castilian...but didn't live with my father... so don't know spanish. sorry.

"...later." 
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by jaaguir     (Wed Nov 8 2006 10:09:29 )   
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I'm not sure I'm the right person to answer that properly as I've been somewhat isolated the last couple of years and maybe I didn't get the general public's feel. But I think it's very similar to other places.
When it was released there was a big fuss on tv news and all that. Just like everywhere else, I guess.
I know there are spanish 'brokeaholics', though I know none personally and don't know of spanish long-lasting brokeback devoted boards like this one or bettermost. And of course there are also people who are indifferent, or were bored, or worse.
I remember reading on this board a lot of posts about people in the USA being afraid of going to the movie theaters, or that drove for hours to watch it on another town or another neighbourhood. Well, if anything is different here, I guess that could be one of the things. I think that above all the hype or the social implications, here people see the movie mainly as just another movie, and everything about it has been like more "normalized" or "less hysterical", if I may say that. As I said there was some fuss about the release, but afterwards I think the social impact has been like 10% compared to the USA, with all the editorials and. After all gay people can marry legally here since the previous summer (or was it the summer before to that, I'm not sure now).
This is how I see it but I may be wrong.
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by toycoon      (Thu Nov 9 2006 07:16:17 )   
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UPDATED Thu Nov 9 2006 07:16:57
Gay people can marry legally here since the previous summer


I didn't know that. Sheee-it! We're goin' to Spain to get married then.

I'm Cuban-American. I am fluent in Spanish but I don't read or write Spanish as well as I can speak it.
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by jaaguir     (Thu Nov 9 2006 11:34:34 )   
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Yeah, it's marriage with exactly all the same legal, fiscal, etc. rights as hetero marriage. The right wing politicians didn't want it to be called 'marriage' because that's only for hetero couplings, they said... I think they appealed against the law in the highest court (Constitutional court)but there's no big chance of anything wrong happening. Thousands of marriages have been celebrated already, some of them with big media coverage. The last one was between two privates, from the army.

Spain is different! hahaha. (I think that was a tourist slogan long ago, and became like a humorous catch phrase.

I hope you can retire and marry too!
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Shasta254     (Thu Nov 23 2006 07:01:20 )   
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UPDATED Thu Nov 23 2006 07:02:07
Can someone give me the 2 cents on why--after they made camp, why did they move and make camp again?

Also---what did the camp-tender do all day? Did the camp-tender get his chores done and then go help the herder with the sheep?

If the camp-tender stayed in camp all day, then I think that the herder should get more $$.

"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by daphne7661      (Thu Nov 23 2006 07:07:42 )   
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I'm a city girl, but I would think that sheep need new pasture in which to graze, no? Moving the camp involves moving the sheep and giving them fresh grazing ground? I don't know.

There appears to be lots to do in camp. Keeping a fire burning requires lots attention and stoking, and LOTS of wood and, therefore, lots of wood chopping, cooking, cleaning dishes, keeping clothes clean since there appears to only be two of everything, keeping an inventory of the food and supplies they need, picking them up (though that is only once a week it seems), tending to the animals, etc.

I guess if the camp tender finishes all that, he could go and help the herder.



...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by ClancyPantsNasty     (Thu Nov 23 2006 07:18:27 )   
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UPDATED Thu Nov 23 2006 07:19:19
Hi daphne7661 and ailuro --

Agreed. Very good posts.

I would add one thing... both the change of jobs and the moving of the sheep (and, the bringing down early of the sheep) are used to usher in and exemplify the changes that occur in their relationship at crucial moments. From a literary analysis perspective, they are devices for change or shift on a greater scale.



Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by daphne7661      (Thu Nov 23 2006 07:22:27 )   
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both the change of jobs and the moving of the sheep (and, the bringing down early of the sheep) are used to usher in and exemplify the changes that occur in their relationship at crucial moments. From a literary analysis perspective, they are devices for change or shift on a greater scale.

YES!!! Thanks for adding that, Clancy!!



...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by ClancyPantsNasty     (Thu Nov 23 2006 07:28:23 )   
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Hi daphne7661 --

It's sort of like... gravy with mashed potatoes on Thanksgiving, huh?

Have a Happy Thanksgiving. Watch out for trolls, keep the TV off, avoid discussions in the kitchen, and DO NOT go to a bar afterward unless you don't have to cross the street!



Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by daphne7661      (Thu Nov 23 2006 07:30:48 )   
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Luv ya, Clancy! I will definitely heed your advice.

Have a great Thanksgiving Day!!!!


...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by ailuro      (Thu Nov 23 2006 07:15:21 )   
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Morning Shasta.
I'll try to answer your questions. Anyone may chime in if I'm in error.

I believe they relocated camp so the sheep would have fresh pasture. A thousand sheep can eat a great deal.
As for the camp tender, I think his job would be to cook, tend the horses & mules, wash clothes, as we saw Jack do, pick up provisions, etc. I'd suppose he'd ride out to the herder on occasion, just for company.
I agree about the herder deserving of more pay. That's a rough job.
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by ailuro      (Thu Nov 23 2006 07:18:10 )   
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Dang Daphne7661, our replies are very simular.
I think we're both correct!
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by daphne7661      (Thu Nov 23 2006 07:20:50 )   
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I know!!! They were almost identical, weren't they ailuro?

 


...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Shasta254     (Thu Nov 23 2006 08:21:40 )   
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Thank you guys. I kind of thought about the sheep needing to move to fresh pasture, but thought they could just move "around" not farther away from the camp. You know--move from north to east or something. But what ya'll said makes sense.

Yeah, Ailuro---negotiate higher pay for the herder---he doesn't get much sleep you know---and he has to commute to boot!!

"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by malina-5     (Thu Nov 23 2006 08:59:10 )   
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The short story mentions the move:

"The summer went on and they moved the herd to new pasture, shifted the camp; the distance between the sheep and the new camp was greater and the night ride longer."

Happy Thanksgiving to all of my south-of-the-border friends! I think Clancy's post ('avoid conversations in the kitchen' etc.) would make a terrific Thanksgiving Day greeting card... maybe with a shot of Monroe's electric knife slicing through that poor bird for the picture, and then on the back, a tiny shot of J + E (heads only) from the movie poster, and the caption 'I know where Brokeback Mountain is."
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Shasta254     (Thu Nov 23 2006 19:09:45 )   
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OK---Here is another 2 cent question. Right before TS2---where the boys are on a hillside; you know the "I'm not queer--Me neither" speech. There are sheep there. Did Jack go and join Ennis at the herd? If Ennis has come back to camp for supper, the sheep wouldn't be there, would they? So did Jack go out to help him. Maybe he went out to see where he stood with Ennis. What do ya'll think?

"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by daphne7661      (Thu Nov 23 2006 19:35:31 )   
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Yes, Jack went up to Ennis and the sheep, and, IMO, I think that, Jack being Jack, he made the move to see where he stood with Ennis, yes.

I know that if I were Jack, I would have been going crazy all day thinking about it....



...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Shasta254     (Fri Nov 24 2006 03:54:14 )   
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OK---Thank you Daphne. That is yet another mystery solved for me after watching time and time again. It's so cool to see something different every time I watch. I am glad that Jack went up there.

"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Fri Nov 24 2006 17:47:29 )   
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hope ya'll had a fabulous thanksgiving...

isn't this the weekend our film begins showing on hbo?

"...later." 
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by daphne7661      (Fri Nov 24 2006 17:52:21 )   
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Hey idgeet! Happy Thanksgiving!

Sunday night I think! I don't have HBO, but that's ok...

I guess we'd better get ready for some 's



...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by mutton-5     (Fri Nov 24 2006 19:42:07 )   
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in 1982 i wrote a letter to idaho state chamber of commerce for information on shepherding there, which i had heard they needed shepherds. i wanted to go do that back then (i was 32, did not get a reply). in the movie, i was surprised that the camp and the sheep were so far apart. i do not see the reason for this. if it was my design, i would have the 2 guys work together, with the camp within sight of the sheep, or very close nearby. sharing the workload. equally protecting the sheep. that is the main work. all else is secondary to the safety and the wellbeing of the sheep. i think the camp tender in brokeback had a long boring day of it. i wonder if in the real world, one camp tender had a few shepherds to cook for? course, i did not go to idaho and do shepherding, so i really don't know how it is done on the open range in real life. but it's a great question, and i have wondered too.
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Sun Nov 26 2006 12:18:49 )   
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i think it may be colder up higher where the sheep graze. remember how much snow was up there when jack slept up there? then when he came down, there wasn't much there? maybe it's for comfort?

"...later." 
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Shasta254     (Tue Nov 28 2006 20:39:09 )   
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When it snowed and Ennis was running around outside---was he looking for his horse?

"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by malina-5     (Wed Nov 29 2006 00:33:09 )   
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<<When it snowed and Ennis was running around outside---was he looking for his horse? >>

I think he was just stomping around trying to get warm... I think it must've been wicked cold in that pup tent, all open at the sides and no ground sheet.. and no Jack to cuddle with..
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Thu Nov 30 2006 02:41:42 )   
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i'm watching right now and i have a new observaton...

i watched closely the scene were jake just shows up after the divorce. and i really thin ennis immediately regreted sending jack away. he looks so disappointed at himself as jack drove away. i think he pushed jack away... but inside he was torn to pieces. wanting jack.. but not allowing himself any satisfaction.

so very tragic.

"...later." 
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Thu Nov 30 2006 03:20:06 )   
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i'm really emotional about the movie today...


watching it right now.. and it's kinda depressing me.



"...later." 
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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Shasta254     (Tue Dec 26 2006 02:22:50 )   
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Ennis was swaying with the two shirts in the closet. I'm sure he was remembering the scene we saw.

Bump.


"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by idgeet     (Tue Dec 26 2006 07:08:49 )   
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that's a new one for me... thanks... i'll have to watch out for that...

"...later." 
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by Shasta254     (Tue Dec 26 2006 10:51:22 )   
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There's nothing new on this one... I think Jack was blown away by the reunion kiss. His mouth is hanging open after the kiss like OMG, I wanted it, didn't think it would happen, but loving it kiss. Then when Ennis mumbles, "later", my breath is taken away.

I think this too.

But later in the motel, Jack says that he knew they would get into this again. I think he was surprised at the fact that it was Ennis who initiated it---and so passionately---right there in broad daylight--even tho he was expecting them to be intimate. It was great--I felt like cheering. And crying--for joy.

"Gettin' tired of your dumbass missin'!"
Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by darkoKnight33     (Tue Jan 2 2007 23:07:45 )   
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bump
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Re: My 2 cents on ...This and That   
  by TrollHammer     (Wed Jan 3 2007 17:25:44 )   
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bump

wanna know why I pick now to bump this thread?
PM me if you're not a troll