Author Topic: Is zero a number?  (Read 13360 times)

Offline David In Indy

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Is zero a number?
« on: July 29, 2007, 02:22:12 pm »
Okay. I'm as bored as hell and I started wondering about it. Zero is NOTHING so how can it be a number? But I see it used as a number all the time.

What do you think? Is it a number?

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mvansand76

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2007, 03:28:09 pm »



YES, and a very beautiful one for that matter!!!  >:( What are you suggesting, David, that 0 isn't a number? Huh? Well? Mmm?  >:(

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2007, 03:40:33 pm »


YES, and a very beautiful one for that matter!!!  >:( What are you suggesting, David, that 0 isn't a number? Huh? Well? Mmm?  >:(

 :laugh:  :laugh:

I don't know what I'm thinking!  :D

But a number indicates a quantity, and zero is nothing, so how could it be a number? But people use it all the time and I've heard people refer to it as a number, so I'm very confused.  ???

How can it be a number when it it isn't anything? Since it's NOTHING, it doesn't exist, does it? But we can see it. Here it is.... 0. See?

And then what about all thsoe negative "numbers"? That's even worse! How can something be NEGATIVE NOTHING??  ???

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mvansand76

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2007, 03:43:43 pm »
:laugh:  :laugh:

I don't know what I'm thinking!  :D

But a number indicates a quantity, and zero is nothing, so how could it be a number? But people use it all the time and I've heard people refer to it as a number, so I'm very confused.  ???

How can it be a number when it it isn't anything? Since it's NOTHING, it doesn't exist, does it? But we can see it. Here it is.... 0. See?

And then what about all thsoe negative "numbers"? That's even worse! How can something be NEGATIVE NOTHING??  ???




NOTHING = A QUANTITY


There.... I solved it AAAAAAAAAND posted my 1985th post! Ha!

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2007, 03:46:47 pm »

NOTHING = A QUANTITY


There.... I solved it AAAAAAAAAND posted my 1985th post! Ha!

Nothing isn't a quantity Melissa. Nothing is NOTHING. There's nothing there!

I'm very confused now.  ???  Any mathematicians out there? Please explain this to us!


Hey, you're only 15 posts away from 2000!!! YEA!!!!!!!!!  :D
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mvansand76

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2007, 04:03:09 pm »
Nothing isn't a quantity Melissa. Nothing is NOTHING. There's nothing there!

I'm very confused now.  ???  Any mathematicians out there? Please explain this to us!


Hey, you're only 15 posts away from 2000!!! YEA!!!!!!!!!  :D


QUESTION: HOW MUCH IS IN IT?
ANSWER: NOTHING!

=
 
NOTHING = QUANTITY!


Really, it's very simple...  ::)

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2007, 04:44:05 pm »
I don't understand.  ???
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2007, 04:46:06 pm »
A quantity is something that CAN be measured. Nothing cannot be measured because it doesn't exist.

How can we measure nothing?


Really Melissa. It's very simple.  ::)

 :laugh:  :laugh:

[[[Melissa]]]  :-*  :-*
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Offline Shasta542

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2007, 04:56:57 pm »
Zero is a count of the elements in a completely empty set: nothing. You can add zero to any number and you get that number. You can add, subtract, and multiply by zero, but you are not allowed to divide by zero.

Zero is a number.

Example Question:

"Shasta--how many times have you kissed Jake Gyllenhaal?"

"I have kissed Jake Gyllenhaal exactly zero times. I am hoping to add to that however."

I'm on the side of "it IS a number". How will we know? If more people say it is a number, then it is; if more people say it isn't a number, then it isn't??   8)

Now, do ya'll think "clear" is a color?   ;D


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Scott6373

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2007, 05:00:49 pm »
Yes, zero is a number but you are not alone if you wonder why. Indian mathematicians first came up with the number idea around 650 AD. Originally, perhaps as early as 200 AD, they used zero as a placeholder in another number. For example, in our notation: 216 is a different number than 2016. This use of zero advanced trade, commerce, and bookkeeping but does not qualify zero as a number. Zero, in its place-keeping function, is a kind of punctuation mark to help us interpret numbers correctly.

mvansand76

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2007, 05:05:12 pm »






I feel sorry for zero.





























1991


Offline Kelda

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2007, 05:16:04 pm »
YOu gotta post the extra nine tonight Mel!!! 9-0 = 9 keep posting!!!
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mvansand76

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2007, 05:18:33 pm »
YOu gotta post the extra nine tonight Mel!!! 9-0 = 9 keep posting!!!

I will, I will.....  :D

1993

Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2007, 06:00:09 pm »



       The dictionary defines Zero:   One less than one.



     Beautiful mind

Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2007, 06:01:48 pm »



           You have 1993 posts Mel?  Wow isnt that interesting.  Are you sure?  Maybe you should check again.??
                                                           ::)



     Beautiful mind

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #15 on: July 29, 2007, 06:15:20 pm »
Zero is a count of the elements in a completely empty set: nothing. You can add zero to any number and you get that number. You can add, subtract, and multiply by zero, but you are not allowed to divide by zero.

Zero is a number.

Example Question:

"Shasta--how many times have you kissed Jake Gyllenhaal?"

"I have kissed Jake Gyllenhaal exactly zero times. I am hoping to add to that however."

I'm on the side of "it IS a number". How will we know? If more people say it is a number, then it is; if more people say it isn't a number, then it isn't??   8)

Now, do ya'll think "clear" is a color?   ;D





I still don't understand.  :-\

And NO! Clear is NOT a color Shasta! You can see right through it!  :D
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Offline opinionista

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #16 on: July 29, 2007, 07:01:00 pm »
Zero is a cardinal number. Just like 1,2, 3 etc.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2007, 07:17:21 pm »
Zero is a count of the elements in a completely empty set: nothing. You can add zero to any number and you get that number. You can add, subtract, and multiply by zero, but you are not allowed to divide by zero.

Zero is a number.

Example Question:

"Shasta--how many times have you kissed Jake Gyllenhaal?"

"I have kissed Jake Gyllenhaal exactly zero times. I am hoping to add to that however."

I'm on the side of "it IS a number". How will we know? If more people say it is a number, then it is; if more people say it isn't a number, then it isn't??   8)

Now, do ya'll think "clear" is a color?   ;D




And Shasta, how could you have kissed Jake EXACTLY zero times. There is no "exactly" because there was no kiss. Wouldn't it be better to say "I've NEVER kissed Jake (although don't we all wish we had.... or could.... or will!)  ;)

Somebody please explain this to me! Zero is nothing. It doesn't exist. It isn't there. So how can we measure it? Obviously we do, because zero exists... the WORD zero exists. But zero itself doesn't exist. But the concept exists, so maybe that's what we are measuring; the concept of "nothingness". But we also measure negative nothings too, like -5 or -100. How is that possible? How can something be LESS than nothing? Or is this another "concept"? But this doesn't make it a NUMBER, just ideas or perspectives, or something we create in our minds out of our imaginations. We can imagine nothing, but this doesn't make nothing exist or become a quantity, does it?

Or maybe it's just me. Here in the Midwest we have to see it to acknowledge it. If we can't see it, smell it,  feel it, etc.  it isn't there. So zero isn't there. But I doubt Midwesterners are all THAT different from other people. I have been known to say things like "I have ZERO tolerance" for something or another. So, I am guilty of believing in and using zero in my speech and thoughts. But this doesn't mean I understand how.....

Lord, now I'm REALLY confused!  :P
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2007, 08:07:32 pm »
 ???  ???

Nobody wants to explain it to me? Did you all just give up?  >:(

 :laugh:  :laugh:


Seriously, what do the rest of you think? Is zero (nothing) a number?
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moremojo

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2007, 08:22:09 pm »
I've always been lousy at math, but yes, I've gotta go with zero being a number. My immediate thought was: If you can have negative numbers (and mathematicians use those), then surely zero must be included. Unfortunately, I don't have the dictionary definition of 'number' before me. But Scott above is obviously pretty knowledgeable in this area, and he says it's a number, so I defer to his judgment.

By the way, the ancient Maya also developed the concept of zero. They called it something else, of course, and it looked different from the Arabic (actually Indian) numeral, but the mathematical concept was the same, and with it, the Maya were able to make extraordinary (and extraordinarily precise) measurements and calculations.

Offline dot-matrix

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2007, 10:06:16 pm »
Yes David zero is a number.  It is a placeholder who's value is determined by the place it holds, you cannot have numbers over 9 without a placeholder to indicate the addtion of every tenth, hundreth or thousandth mark.  Without zero there would be no 10, no 20, no 50, no 100, no 1000, no 1,000,000.  Without zero there would be no complex calculations that gave us modern wonders like the personal computer, solar energy or space travel....hence not only is zero a number it is a VERY important number   ;D

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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2007, 10:09:02 pm »
Yes David zero is a number.  It is a placeholder who's value is determined by the place it holds, you cannot have numbers over 9 without a placeholder to indicate the addtion of every tenth, hundreth or thousandth mark.  Without zero there would be no 10, no 20, no 50, no 100, no 1000, no 1,000,000.  Without zero there would be no complex calculations that gave us modern wonders like the personal computer, solar energy or space travel....hence not only is zero a number it is a VERY important number   ;D

Okay! Thanks Dottie!  :D

But (and PLEASE nobody bite my head off for asking this) a placeholder is not the same as a number, is it?  ???
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Offline dot-matrix

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2007, 10:11:54 pm »
Okay! Thanks Dottie!  :D

But (and PLEASE nobody bite my head off for asking this) a placeholder is not the same as a number, is it?  ???

I would NEVER bite your head off David !  :( Zero has to be a number to have an assigned value, otherwise it would be an unknown like a or c are in  algebraic equations.  Therefore it is null until it assumes its "place"...make sense  :) ... only when it stands totally alone does zero have no value and then it use ONLY to indicate that.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2007, 10:21:22 pm by dot-matrix »
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Offline dot-matrix

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #23 on: July 30, 2007, 10:18:25 pm »
I use to love these School House Rock things when I was a kid!



My Hero, Zero
Music & Lyrics:    Bob Dorough  

Zero?
Yeah, Zero is a wonderful thing.
In fact, Zero is my hero!

How can Zero be a hero?

Well, there are all kinds of heroes, you know.
A man can get to be a hero
For a famous battle he fought...
Or by studying very hard
And becoming a weightless astronaut.

And then there are heroes of other sorts,
Like the heroes we know from watching sports.
But a hero doesn't have to be a grown up person, you know,
A hero can be a very big dog
Who comes to your rescue,
Or a very little boy who's smart enough to know what to do.

But let me tell you about my favorite hero.

My hero, Zero, such a funny little hero,
But till you came along,
We counted on our fingers and toes.
Now you're here to stay
And nobody really knows
How wonderful you are.
Why we could never reach a star,
Without you, Zero, my hero,
How wonderful you are.

What's so wonderful about a zero?
It's nothing, isn't it?

Sure, it represents nothing alone.

But place a zero after 1
And you've got yourself a 10.
See how important that is?
When you run out of digits,
You can start all over again.
See how convenient that is?

That's why with only ten digits including zero,
You can count as high as you could ever go...
Forever, towards infinity,
No one ever gets there, but you could try.

With 10 billion zeros,
From the cavemen till the heroes,
Who invented you,
They counted on their fingers and toes
And maybe some sticks and stones, or rocks and bones
And their neighbors' toes.
You're here,
And nobody really knows
How wonderful you are.
Why we could never reach the star,
Without you, Zero, my hero,
Zero, how wonderful you are.

Place one zero after any number
And you've multiplied that number by 10.
See how easy that is.
Place two zeros after any number
And you've multiplied that number by 100.
See how simple that is.
Place three zeros after any number,
And you've multiplied that number by 1,000.

Et cetera, et cetera, ad infinitum, ad astra, forever and ever,
With zero, my hero, how wonderful you are.
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injest

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #24 on: July 30, 2007, 10:35:55 pm »
zero is a number.

I remember reading about ancient history and they were talking about how people didnt really start commerce until they were able to grasp the concept of nothing.

that doesn't sound right I know. But you can't say there is one pencil if you don't know that there is the concept that there were zero pencils before.

ARGH...I am not explaining right.

lets say you are a restaurant owner. and you are buying bread. You have to know you had zero before you can add to it. you have to have the concept of nothing.

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2007, 10:58:27 pm »
I would NEVER bite your head off David !  :( Zero has to be a number to have an assigned value, otherwise it would be an unknown like a or c are in  algebraic equations.  Therefore it is null until it assumes its "place"...make sense  :) ... only when it stands totally alone does zero have no value and then it use ONLY to indicate that.

Okay. I think I understand now Dottie.

Zero is NOT a number if it is alone (only zero) but with another number (such as a one) it IS a number. That makes sense.  :)
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2007, 11:03:16 pm »
zero is a number.

I remember reading about ancient history and they were talking about how people didnt really start commerce until they were able to grasp the concept of nothing.

that doesn't sound right I know. But you can't say there is one pencil if you don't know that there is the concept that there were zero pencils before.

ARGH...I am not explaining right.

lets say you are a restaurant owner. and you are buying bread. You have to know you had zero before you can add to it. you have to have the concept of nothing.

Okay Jess! Don't come in here and confuse me again!  :laugh:

Yes. Zero on its own is a CONCEPT. Not a number. If you have ZERO loaves of bread, you have NO loaves of bread. You have nothing. But if you have 9 loves of bread and purchase another loaf, now you have 10 loaves of bread. Zero in this case (10) IS a number, sort of. But nothing is nothing and it cannot be a number. So zero on its own is not a number, but in the case of 10 (or even 100, 1000, 10000... even 1095600) THOSE zeros are numbers.

Am I correct in saying this? I think I am!  :D
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injest

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2007, 11:14:30 pm »
all numbers are just concepts.

all words are just concepts. in and of themselves they don't mean anything.

what is 1 for example?

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2007, 12:33:40 am »
all numbers are just concepts.

all words are just concepts. in and of themselves they don't mean anything.

what is 1 for example?

But we can see numbers. If I have two apples in front of me, I can SEE two apples. There they are... one... two..

If I have ONE apple in front of me I can see ONE apple.

If I have ZERO apples in front of me, I see NOTHING because NOTHING is there! See?  :)
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moremojo

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2007, 09:15:08 am »
If I have ZERO apples in front of me, I see NOTHING because NOTHING is there! See?  :)
Yes, but the concept of no apples is what is pertinent here. Zero apples is as viable a quantity (at least in mathematical terms) as one or more apples.

Like I said, I'm lousy in math, but one of the aspects of mathematics is its delving into the realm of abstraction. Mathematical concepts don't always have to have (or perhaps even can have, sometimes) exact analogies in the workaday world of our everyday lives.

Offline dot-matrix

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2007, 09:30:00 am »
OK David try this on:


In mathmatical terms Zero is a prime number. Zero is a positive integer,  Zero is an even number. 

Zero is both a number and a numerical digit.  As a numerical digit it is a place holder.  But Zero is also a number which quantifies a count or an amount of null size; that is, if the number of your brothers is zero, that means the same thing as having no brothers, and if something has a weight of zero, it has no weight.

To extrapolate your theory….If the difference between the number of pieces in two piles is zero, it means the two piles have an equal number of pieces. Before counting starts, the result can be assumed to be zero; that is the number of items counted before you count the first item and counting the first item brings the result to one. And if there are no items to be counted, zero remains the final result.

While mathematicians all accept zero as a number, some non-mathematicians would say that zero is not a number, arguing that one cannot have zero of something. Others hold that if one has a bank balance of zero, one has a specific quantity of money in that account, namely none. It is that latter view which is accepted by mathematicians and most others

Better ?
 ;)
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2007, 12:48:56 pm »

While mathematicians all accept zero as a number, some non-mathematicians would say that zero is not a number, arguing that one cannot have zero of something. Others hold that if one has a bank balance of zero, one has a specific quantity of money in that account, namely none. It is that latter view which is accepted by mathematicians and most others


Ah HA!!! See? I'm not the only one who thinks like this.  :D

Yes it is better now Dottie. Thank you for taking all this time to explain it to me.

I'm very good with numbers. I can add, subtract and somtimes even multiply and divide large numbers in my head. But when it comes to understanding numerical concepts like zero, I'm just a big numbers dummy.  :(

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Offline dot-matrix

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2007, 03:27:56 pm »
Ah HA!!! See? I'm not the only one who thinks like this.  :D

Yes it is better now Dottie. Thank you for taking all this time to explain it to me.

I'm very good with numbers. I can add, subtract and somtimes even multiply and divide large numbers in my head. But when it comes to understanding numerical concepts like zero, I'm just a big numbers dummy:(



You Sir are no DUMMY about ANYTHING.  You are very smart and very insightful and intuitative.  You often cut through to whats important and lead with your heart.  You are kind and considerate making everyone here feel welcome and special. I think most everyone here will agree with me.   I consider it a rare pleasure to have met you!  SO NO MORE PUTTING YOURSELF DOWN AT ALL... or you're gonna piss me off  ;)  and I'm not so pretty when I'm pissed off   :laugh:
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moremojo

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2007, 03:31:53 pm »
...I'm just a big numbers dummy.
Sorry, David, but I'M the big numbers dummy around these parts! 8)

Offline Kelda

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2007, 05:20:29 pm »
SO NO MORE PUTTING YOURSELF DOWN AT ALL... or you're gonna piss me off  ;)  and I'm not so pretty when I'm pissed off   :laugh:

I can imagine you are quite the scary woman Dottie!!!
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Offline dot-matrix

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2007, 10:51:37 pm »
I can imagine you are quite the scary woman Dottie!!!

  Yeah!  I'm tough    LOL actually I didn't mean it that way...it's just David comes across as this really good guy and I get the feeling people maybe have hurt him in his life and maybe even taken advantage of him and I HATE to see him put himself down that way....that's all.... O.K. .... maybe I should just mind my own business  :-\
« Last Edit: July 31, 2007, 11:01:34 pm by dot-matrix »
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Offline David In Indy

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #36 on: July 31, 2007, 11:18:06 pm »
  Yeah!  I'm tough    LOL actually I didn't mean it that way...it's just David comes across as this really good guy and I get the feeling people maybe have hurt him in his life and maybe even taken advantage of him and I HATE to see him put himself down that way....that's all.... O.K. .... maybe I should just mind my own business  :-\

I was just kidding Dottie!  :laugh:

I wasn't putting myself down. But I really do have a problem understanding things like this. That's why I was asking questions, so I could understand it. I've always wondered about zero.

And now I know!  :D
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mvansand76

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2007, 10:07:18 am »
I was just kidding Dottie!  :laugh:

I wasn't putting myself down. But I really do have a problem understanding things like this. That's why I was asking questions, so I could understand it. I've always wondered about zero.

And now I know!  :D

You should've just listened to my explanation.... ::)

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #38 on: August 02, 2007, 01:01:20 am »
I think Shasta said it well:

Example Question:

"Shasta--how many times have you kissed Jake Gyllenhaal?"

"I have kissed Jake Gyllenhaal exactly zero times. I am hoping to add to that however."



What about in binary?  Without 0, there would only be 1s.


Offline David In Indy

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Re: Is zero a number?
« Reply #39 on: August 03, 2007, 03:22:47 pm »

What about in binary?  Without 0, there would only be 1s.



Doesn't the zero in binary indicate the switch is closed (no data) and a one opens the switch allowing the information to flow through? I think I read that somewhere, but it was a very long time ago. It might not even be true anymore considering how fast technology changes. And I've had plenty of time to get it all mixed up!  :D
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