If you were Alma............

[vkm91941]

Now seriously if you opened the door and saw your husband (wife or significant other) making out with someone could you close the door and never say anything for twelve years? How would you have handled it?



Me, you ask...catching that kiss and then him staying out all night, coming home only long enough to grab his toothbrush and a clean shirt?  He'd a found the locks changed and his butt kicked to the curb when he got back from "fishin" 

[starboardlight]

you reaction is indicative of how much things have changed for women. today, while it's still scary to be a single mother, it's not such a taboo anymore. and women today do make more money than Alma would have been able to in the 60's. daycare is very common place assistance for working parents. I think Alma really just didn't see how to extract herself out of her situation. Even if she wanted kick Ennis to the curb, she didn't have the means to survive on her own. I think if I had been in her shoes, I'd have been just as lost and confused about what to do next.

[delalluvia]

Well, I imagine the hardest time would have been the remaining 5 years until she divorced Ennis, then it was a lot easier since Ennis was no longer around and she was busy with Monroe and the girls and she only had to deal with Ennis at the most once a month.

And like star said, it was harder for women like Alma back then.  Especially as her goal seemed to be geared more toward wanting to be a stay at home mom.  She couldn't accomplish that by leaving Ennis and going home to her folks.  She needed a new man with the right stuff.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Agreed, Star and Del.

When Alma does kick Ennis to the curb, in Annie Proulx's story economics seems to play a considerable role in the decision, in my reading, with Ennis's relationship with Jack only one factor. Before that, her opportunities were pretty limited--a part-time job in a grocery store, with two little ones to care for. We don't know whether she even finished high school or was a drop-out like Ennis.

I've never really given this much thought until now, but I'm guessing Monroe (or Bill, in the story) was waiting in the wings for the divorce to be finalized. When Alma married "the Riverton grocer," she was clearly "marrying up" the economic ladder. The film illustrates this pretty well in the Thanksgiving dinner sequence.

[serious crayons]

I agree with everybody so far. And I'll add that even beyond economics it can be hard to give the boot to a man you love, especially if you're as mystified as Alma may have been about what was going on.

Tell you what, though, I sure would have started ripping up those postcards.

[vkm91941]

You're ALL  right, got to keep 2006 sensibilities and the freedom that comes with a good education from coloring the way we respond.... and keep in mind the women's movement was still very new and women were paid significantly less than men. Alma like a lot of women in her generation would have had a very hard time leaving Ennis and making it on her own. My guess is she didn't even file for that divorce until she had Monroe lined up to take Ennis' place.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I agree with everybody so far. And I'll add that even beyond economics it can be hard to give the boot to a man you love, especially if you're as mystified as Alma may have been about what was going on.

Tell you what, though, I sure would have started ripping up those postcards.

Tell you what, that's one reason I admire Alma. As puzzling or as painful or as difficult as the situation may have been for her, she doesn't tear up those postcards. That takes integrity. My Resistol is off to her!

[Jeff Wrangler]

You're ALL  right, got to keep 2006 sensibilities and the freedom that comes with a good education from coloring the way we respond.... and keep in mind the women's movement was still very new and women were paid significantly less than men. Alma like a lot of women in her generation would have had a very hard time leaving Ennis and making it on her own. My guess is she didn't even file for that divorce until she had Monroe lined up to take Ennis' place.

Tell you what, Victoria, here you touch on something I've wondered about. It really goes beyond the bounds of both story and film, and there really is no evidence, but I have wondered whether some word of the burgeoning women's movement didn't get through to Alma Beers del Mar, out there in early 1970s Riverton, Wyoming, and help her to feel that she could do better in her own life than she was doing with Ennis. Maybe it did help her get up the nerve to file those divorce papers.

[serious crayons]

Well, it was obvious that Monroe had had his eye on Alma for a while. And Alma no doubt picked up on that. Monroe is more prosperous, and household finances were a major concern for Alma. She's sick of being poor, and in fact it's finances, not philandering, that lead to the divorce (at least overtly). So I'm guessing that Victoria is right, Alma had Monroe waiting in the wings, or at least realized that he wouldn't be hard to nab.

Tell you what, that's one reason I admire Alma. As puzzling or as painful or as difficult as the situation may have been for her, she doesn't tear up those postcards. That takes integrity. My Resistol is off to her!

I see your point, though somehow I don't imagine Alma thinking, "Much as I disapprove, on several levels, of my husband having an affair with another man, it would be wrong of me to try to interfere by withholding information about an upcoming tryst." She just seems wimpy. In fact, why did she hide the one postcard inside the grocery flyer? Did Ennis ever even get that one?

[delalluvia]

Well, it was obvious that Monroe had had his eye on Alma for a while. And Alma no doubt picked up on that. Monroe is more prosperous, and household finances were a major concern for Alma. She's sick of being poor, and in fact it's finances, not philandering, that lead to the divorce (at least overtly). So I'm guessing that Victoria is right, Alma had Monroe waiting in the wings, or at least realized that he wouldn't be hard to nab.

Agree.  Despite Ennis' affair with Jack, in the end, I kind of have the feeling had Ennis been more properous and was able to 'keep' Alma in the style she wanted, she might have kept her mouth shut about it forever.

Isn't that what a lot of women did/do?  Back in the days when 'women prayed and men strayed'?  As long as the man kept up the aura of respectability and kept his wife and children, a woman didn't have too much to complain about.  Especially one who wanted to stay home anyway.

I see your point, though somehow I don't imagine Alma thinking, "Much as I disapprove, on several levels, of my husband having an affair with another man, it would be wrong of me to try to interfere by withholding information about an upcoming tryst." She just seems wimpy. In fact, why did she hide the one postcard inside the grocery flyer? Did Ennis ever even get that one?

Even if Alma tore that one up, and Ennis didn't see it, as I recall, there wasn't much info on it, just a kind of 'hey, things still look good for our trip' kind of message, one Jack wouldn't have been expecting a reply to and one Ennis could have easily not needed to read anyway.  He hadn't heard from Jack, he would assume things were still on.

[slayers_creek_oth]

Me, you ask...catching that kiss and then him staying out all night, coming home only long enough to grab his toothbrush and a clean shirt?  He'd a found the locks changed and his butt kicked to the curb when he got back from "fishin" 

Hey now thats a little harsh now don't you think Vic?  LOL JK...

So if you were Alma and you caught Ennis makin out with Jack you would have kicked him out?  LOL

[vkm91941]

Hey now thats a little harsh now don't you think Vic?  LOL JK...

So if you were Alma and you caught Ennis makin out with Jack you would have kicked him out?  LOL

Hell yes!....Marriage is a covenant relationship and fidelity is the one thing  I require with no compromise.

[slayers_creek_oth]

Hell yes!....Marriage is a covenant relationship and fidelity is the one thing  I require with no compromise.

Yes I agree!  I was just kiddin....

[vkm91941]

Yes I agree!  I was just kiddin....

Oh I knew you were razzing me! LOL no worries

[TJ]

If I were the Alma of the Short Story, I would have just thought that my husband was just a little overexcited in seeing a friend whom he had not seen in a little less than 4 years. I say that because when Alma opened barely the door the first time, she only saw Ennis' back with the straining shoulders. And when she opened it a little bit more the 2nd time, the two guys were standing side by side. I think that if Alma had not been standing there, Ennis would have told Jack to wait while he got his hat and they would go somewhere. And, then he would have told Alma that he might not be back until morning.

If I were the Alma of the Movie, I would have asked Ennis to go with me into the living room, the door the guys were standing in when Jack talked to Alma was in a hallway inside the apartment. Alma was in the kitchen/dining room.  I would have confronted him on the spot and ask him why were they kissing like they were a man and a woman when they were outside standing on the ground. I might have told him how shocked and embarassed I would have been to see that.

I have my own opinion in this situation and I think that Alma did believe that Ennis cheated on her when he was with Jack; but, he cheated by committing adultery with other women while being with Jack. That's why she said years later, "Jack Twist? Jack Nasty!"

I have known men who had sex with guys and their wives knew the guys but thought their husband were having sex with other women. The wives did not have a clue as to what was really going on; they just thought their husbands' friends were heterosexual swingers.

[starboardlight]

it's hard to take off the 2006 cap, but I wondered too if she thought of his relationship with Jack as equivalent to or replacing that between her and Ennis. I hate to use this analogy, but if you saw your significant other in a sexual act with a sheep, you're thinking "He sick!" but not necessarily "he's cheating on me." If you had limited exposure to homosexuality, the perception is that those two might as well be the same thing. Am I making sense?

[TJ]

it's hard to take off the 2006 cap, but I wondered too if she thought of his relationship with Jack as equivalent to or replacing that between her and Ennis. I hate to use this analogy, but if you saw your significant other in a sexual act with a sheep, you're thinking "He sick!" but not necessarily "he's cheating on me." If you had limited exposure to homosexuality, the perception is that those two might as well be the same thing. Am I making sense?

Maybe making sense in 2006 . . . but we have to remember that huggin' and kissin' scene in the movie AND the book was in 1967. In rural communities and in the country around that time, those who had limited exposure to the knowledge of the activity of homosexuals would not have even assumed the guys were having sex.

And, in 1967, if my parents had seen me kiss another man on the mouth and hugged him in a bear hug, they might have been amused at the overt display of public affection; but, they would not have even connected sex with it.

My parents had no problem with loved ones of the same sex kissing each other on the mouth. Except when one of us had a cold or the flu, my father always kissed me on the mouth. No one would have thought of him as effeminate.

Oh, but, there was no way that I would kiss a man in 1967 after Feb. 15 because I was in Vietnam in the Army until a year later.

[serious crayons]

Hell yes!....Marriage is a covenant relationship and fidelity is the one thing  I require with no compromise.

Yes, but if Ennis were the ideal husband in every other way I can see trying to ignore it. He's not exactly, though ....

However,

Even if Alma tore that one up, and Ennis didn't see it, as I recall, there wasn't much info on it, just a kind of 'hey, things still look good for our trip' kind of message, one Jack wouldn't have been expecting a reply to and one Ennis could have easily not needed to read anyway.  He hadn't heard from Jack, he would assume things were still on.

Yes, I also assumed in that one case the plans were already firm enough that hiding that particular postcard didn't throw them off. But then what is the point, from a storytelling perspective, of showing her hiding it? Did she hide others, perhaps with more crucial info? And if not, why not? Looks like Alma is the one who usually gets the mail. So does she interfere or doesn't she?!

[Penthesilea]

I think the circumstances of given place and time are very important to Alma's reaction. Not only the men, but also the women were expected to marry and raise children (even more than the men). A marriage was often the only chance to leave the own parent's house for a woman. Many women took not whom they loved, but whom they were able to "get" and whom seemed to be not a too bad choice.

Most of the (now elder) women in my family did not marry out of romantic love, but:

-  to be provided/cared for (?right expression? - hope you get what I mean) in a social and monetary way
-  to not end as a old damsel
-  to be able to lead an adult life away from their parents
-  because they were pregnant

It was like "you take what you can get and try to make the best out of it".
And after the choice was made once, they had to stand it. No matter whether the husband was an alcoholic who wasted all the money on drink, beat her and/or the children, committed adultery, and so on.

I think Alma, too, tried to make the best out of her situation. She tried to stand her life with Ennis as it was, because at first she saw not other possibility and she was raised to endure it. But as the years went by, the times changed. To leave a husband was no longer impossible and Monroe was waiting in the wings.

And for the OP question: what I would have done if I was Alma? Only thing I know for sure is that I would not have kept silent. Never. This is not in my character. I would have confronted him as soon as he got back from their first trip. Maybe I would have gone along with the social pressure and let the marriage go on (in the sixties whith said circumstances), as a sham marriage. But internally I would have made things very clear.
I hope I would have had the courage to end the marriage years earlier than Alma did. But I don't know for sure.

[delalluvia]

I'm with star, I didn't think Alma said, "Jack Twist?  Jack Nasty!" because she thought Ennis was cheating on her with other women, but because what she believed they were doing was disgusting in her eyes.

Pent is thinking the same way I am.  In some situations, I say some, because some women of the time did in fact get divorced without a heavy stigma on them, but I remember reading about the Kennedys when Rose left her husband because of the endless affairs.  Her family did not back her up.  She had 'made her bed and she must lie in it', so she went back to him.  She certainly had no other place to go considering she had the 9 children to think about as well.

Now TJ has commented that in certain situations the wives may have suspected something was up with their husbands and their 'friends' but didn't know enough about sexual relationships to understand that he was having a gay affair considering the isolation of their living areas.

I agree, this is also why I think the movie makers made sure Movie Alma saw the two actually making out instead of Book Alma simply seeing Ennis' back while they tusseled on the stoop which could account for her staying with Ennis - because she didn't know what was she was seeing - and finally leaving him because he was a crap provider and companion.

This is also why I don't agree when people say Junior 'knew' what her father was.

[TJ]

delalluvia, I like your responses here.

In the book, when Ennis and Alma moved with their children to Riverton and stayed in the apartment over the laundry, Ennis worked 7 days a week. See the quote below from the book:

"Ennis got on the highway crew, tolerating it but working weekends at the Rafter B in exchange for keeping his horses out there. The second girl was born and Alma wanted to stay in town near the clinic because the child had an asthmatic wheeze.
   "Ennis, please, no more damn lonesome ranches for us," she said, sitting on his lap, wrapping her thin, freckled arms around him. "Let's get a place here in town?"

But, by the time that Jack showed up in 1967, they were still in the very same small apartment. They still had not moved to a place of their own, which IMO would have been a house with a yard.

I don't consider Ennis to be a lazy person and in the book, he was working when Alma got the job as a grocery store clerk because of all the bills they had which were probably connected with the childrens' health problems and they could not survive just on what Ennis was making.

But, I do know that some people who cannot hold a job very long have self-esteem problems. But, if you read about how ranch work was available on a limited basis for people with little or no job skills in Wyoming in the 1960s, you (meaning anybody) would understand their finacial situation.

[starboardlight]

I agree, this is also why I think the movie makers made sure Movie Alma saw the two actually making out instead of Book Alma simply seeing Ennis' back while they tusseled on the stoop which could account for her staying with Ennis - because she didn't know what was she was seeing - and finally leaving him because he was a crap provider and companion.

This is also why I don't agree when people say Junior 'knew' what her father was.

i agree here, del. the kitchen confrontation made more sense in the short story. In the story, she might have suspected but tying the note to his fishing line would have been her way of confirming her suspicion. in the movie, she knew why Ennis went up to the mountain with Jack. She knew it wasn't about fishing, so there would have no reason to tie the note.

[JennyC]

i agree here, del. the kitchen confrontation made more sense in the short story. In the story, she might have suspected but tying the note to his fishing line would have been her way of confirming her suspicion. in the movie, she knew why Ennis went up to the mountain with Jack. She knew it wasn't about fishing, so there would have no reason to tie the note.

Excellent point, star and Del.  I was wondering the difference between the short story and the film on this particular scene.  You made it very clear to me now.

[TJ]

i agree here, del. the kitchen confrontation made more sense in the short story. In the story, she might have suspected but tying the note to his fishing line would have been her way of confirming her suspicion. in the movie, she knew why Ennis went up to the mountain with Jack. She knew it wasn't about fishing, so there would have no reason to tie the note.

Excellent point, star and Del.  I was wondering the difference between the short story and the film on this particular scene.  You made it very clear to me now.

I don't think Alma became suspicious until after Ennis had claimed more than once that they had eaten all of the trout that he and Jack supposedly caught and that' why none were brought home for her and the kids, who liked fish, to eat. Before Alma tied the note on the end of the fishing line, Ennis had been taking the 5 year old creel case with him every time he went "fishing." The contents in it were still "brand-new" when she put the note in it and the note had not even gotten damp when he came back from the trip.

IMO, I just think that Alma didn't just believe that the guys did not even fish; she also believed they didn't go up to camp in the mountains either. That's why I think she accused him (and Jack) of committing heterosexual adultery with women. She could also have been naive enough to not understand why the type of sex Ennis liked "didn't make too many babies." (A woman can only get pregnant if some spilled semen ends up in the right location. Some women have gotten pregnant without actual vaginal intercourse.)

[Jeff Wrangler]

But then what is the point, from a storytelling perspective, of showing her hiding [the postcard]? Did she hide others, perhaps with more crucial info? And if not, why not? Looks like Alma is the one who usually gets the mail. So does she interfere or doesn't she?!

I'd guess she doesn't. The story doesn't really give us anything on their communications before their fishing trips. Maybe the hiding the postcard scene was the movie's equivalent of the story's point that she resented Ennis taking these fishing trips with Jack while he never took her and the girls anywhere.

Maybe she doesn't interfere because she's afraid of what Ennis might do if he finds out--and surely he would find out, eventually. If she didn't realize her husband was capable of violence before the Fourth of July, 1966, she sure knew it after that date!

[j.U.d.E.]

With everything being said so far, I agree mostly. Back in 1967 in rural America (or anywhere else) it was hard for a woman like Alma to stand strong and getting a divorce. But I do think she got stronger with the years. She did after all, put her will through to go working, instead of staying home cooking for her family (the scene with the girls on the swing). And earlier in the film when Ennis drops of the girls at the place where Alma works, she does challenge (even though not very successfully) Ennis as to whose job is more important. It just took a while/few years, to get to the divorce.

And I think also, that, though Alma really loved Ennis, she might also have been scared of him. He had quite a temper and was basically double her size or at least weight..

To answer Victoria's question, now 2006 (back then I don't know) I wouldn't wait long or re-consider much. I wouldn't kick him    but I wouldn't give him endless number of chances..

My father was mostly out of work when me and my sister were toddlers. In 1972 my mother discoverd my father cheating on her. She left him and by 1974 they were divorced. But my mother was not in Alma's situation, though it was pretty tough for her still!

~ j U d E

[serious crayons]

And I think also, that, though Alma really loved Ennis, she might also have been scared of him. He had quite a temper and was basically double her size or at least weight..

Jude and Jeff, if one purpose of the 4th of July scene is to show that Alma has reason to fear Ennis' violence -- and it may well be -- it's lame. Beating up slop-bucket-mouthed bikers is pretty different from beating up your wife. My husband is non-violent, but say if he got in a fight with some guy in a bar, I can't imagine getting scared he would go after me next.

[j.U.d.E.]

Jude and Jeff, if one purpose of the 4th of July scene is to show that Alma has reason to fear Ennis' violence -- and it may well be -- it's lame. Beating up slop-bucket-mouthed bikers is pretty different from beating up your wife. My husband is non-violent, but say if he got in a fight with some guy in a bar, I can't imagine getting scared he would go after me next.

I was thinking of that exact scene too. Though I wasn't suggesting Ennis being a wife-beater, but there is one scene - just after the Jack Nasty bit - where Ennis does grab Alma. And before that - when he's having sex with Alma and turns her around without her consent... I'd say that's considered aggressive!

And he can be aggressive towards Jack too.. I wonder how much Jack 'accepted'..

Though I give him this -> he does not ever seem to direct his anger/aggression towards his girls.

~ j U d E [I can never figure out whether to write about the characters in present tense or past tense.. odd..]

[Jeff Wrangler]

Jude and Jeff, if one purpose of the 4th of July scene is to show that Alma has reason to fear Ennis' violence -- and it may well be -- it's lame. Beating up slop-bucket-mouthed bikers is pretty different from beating up your wife. My husband is non-violent, but say if he got in a fight with some guy in a bar, I can't imagine getting scared he would go after me next.

Indeed it is. Nevertheless, others have said they think she looks terrified in that shot where she's in the background holding the girls and Ennis is silhouetted against the fireworks, which is why I brought it up. Lame or not, I repeat, she certainly knows he's capable of violence after the Fourth of July if she didn't know it before.

On to some other thoughts, now that I'm home with Story to Screenplay in front of me. 

Can we be sure "Story Alma" doesn't know exactly what's going on when she opens the door and sees Ennis's "straining shoulders"? Personally, I'd say, What else could Ennis and Jack be doing--and what else could Alma think they're doing--except kissing?

But never mind me. More to the point, as early as minutes later when Ennis introduces Jack to Alma, AP tells us that Alma "had seen what she had seen." Yet at some undetermined time later, she still put the note in Ennis's creel.

[serious crayons]

Can we be sure "Story Alma" doesn't know exactly what's going on when she opens the door and sees Ennis's "straining shoulders"? Personally, I'd say, What else could Ennis and Jack be doing--and what else could Alma think they're doing--except kissing?

The way I read it, she knows what is going on.

And here's another thing: I was just thinking (in that ridiculous way I have of devoting all my daily thoughts to what characters in BBM should or shouldn't have done, as opposed to devoting them to my own work) that however much Alma was wronged over the years, her confrontation on Thanksgiving is unspeakably rude. She waits all those years when it would have made sense to mention something -- and then finally does so gratuitously, on a holiday, with their daughters in the other room. Is it because Ennis seems so much more manly than Monroe and that makes her uncomfortable? Is it because she feels financially secure enough at that point to express her bitterness openly?

[Jeff Wrangler]

The way I read it, she knows what is going on.

And here's another thing: I was just thinking (in that ridiculous way I have of devoting all my daily thoughts to what characters in BBM should or shouldn't have done, as opposed to devoting them to my own work) that however much Alma was wronged over the years, her confrontation on Thanksgiving is unspeakably rude. She waits all those years when it would have made sense to mention something -- and then finally does so gratuitously, on a holiday, with their daughters in the other room. Is it because Ennis seems so much more manly than Monroe and that makes her uncomfortable? Is it because she feels financially secure enough at that point to express her bitterness openly?

I agree, it is rude.

I remember a discussion on the Thanksgiving confrontation back at IMDb. I remember thinking and writing at the time that perhaps the fact that the girls still so plainly idolize their father, after all he's put their mother through (not that the girls know that), finally goads Alma to the breaking point. But that doesn't necessarily speak to the question of why she confronts him at that Thanksgiving dinner.

But let me ask the ladies a question, and no disrespect intended but some of you will have had an experience that I'll never have: Could or does the fact that Alma is pregnant--and pregnant with Monroe's child--at the time have anything to do with the timing of her confronting Ennis?

[cricket99999]

Being pregnant, she may be feeling more tired and exasperated than usual.  Emotionally, she may be feeling some sense of power from her pregnancy in the sense that she is set from now on, ie no longer working-class.  But I don't think her pregnancy is a major reason for the outburst.

I remember thinking and writing at the time that perhaps the fact that the girls still so plainly idolize their father, after all he's put their mother through (not that the girls know that), finally goads Alma to the breaking point. But that doesn't necessarily speak to the question of why she confronts him at that Thanksgiving dinner.

I think it's at that Thanksgiving dinner because that's the one where he's in spitting distance of her, and she's never had the chance to air her grievances.  Doubt she planned on doing so, but then (as you mentioned) the girls fawned over Ennis and later Ennis made his "once burned" comment, and she lost it. 

[delalluvia]

But let me ask the ladies a question, and no disrespect intended but some of you will have had an experience that I'll never have: Could or does the fact that Alma is pregnant--and pregnant with Monroe's child--at the time have anything to do with the timing of her confronting Ennis?

This was brought up on an IMDb post, Jeff, and I was in agreement that the combnation of being pregnant, raging hormones, the clear idolization of the girls, the discomfort of a not-so-happy family and Ennis finally putting the blame on her for the divorce "Once burned..." finally just made her crack.

Perhaps, had she not been so encumbered by child and hormones, she might have kept the lid on as she had all this time.

Kat and others,

the reason I mention Story Alma as possibly not knowing what is going on during the reunion scene, is because when you read later why she divorced Ennis, while his 'embrace' and the 'fishing trips' are on the list, there are many other things wrong with her marriage to Ennis.  IMO it seems that the reason she objects to the 'fishing trips' with Jack is because Ennis doesn't take HER and the girls anywhere.  It's as if he took them to Disneyland or a dance once in while, that would've been OK with her, tit for tat.  It's like Story Alma puts Ennis' affair with Jack lower down the list of things wrong.

[serious crayons]

Yeah, I forgot about the "once burned" crack. That could have annoyed her. Although "once burned" could also mean something less insulting, such as, "I've already tried marriage once and was hurt when it didn't work out." Which, judging from his expression at the divorce procedings, is true.

Jeff, good point about her being annoyed at the girls still idolizing their father. Alma looks pretty peevish after the rodeo story. But I don't think the pregnancy would make much difference.

Del, I think even Movie Alma had other reasons for divorcing Ennis that may have been higher on the list than his affair, or at least close behind it. The main one: money. (And, of course, the two are connected.)

[cricket99999]

Although "once burned" could also mean something less insulting, such as, "I've already tried marriage once and was hurt when it didn't work out."

I think that IS what the statement meant to Ennis, and that it was not an insult. But I think Alma misinterpreted it as such, which would be easy enough to do. 

[Jeff Wrangler]

I think that IS what the statement meant to Ennis, and that it was not an insult. But I think Alma misinterpreted it as such, which would be easy enough to do. 

What Ennis meant may not be as important as what Alma thought he meant. Still, though, I'm glad the "once burned" remark was brought up. I'd forgotten about it--and regardless of what Ennis meant, personally I think that was a pretty rude thing for him to say to Alma. She was his hostess, even if she was the woman who "burned" him.

[MaineWriter]

What Ennis meant may not be as important as what Alma thought he meant. Still, though, I'm glad the "once burned" remark was brought up. I'd forgotten about it--and regardless of what Ennis meant, personally I think that was a pretty rude thing for him to say to Alma. She was his hostess, even if she was the woman who "burned" him.

I don't think it's rude, in context. She started it, "After all these years, Ennis, you ain't found anybody else t'marry..."

and he says, "Once burned..."

You have to remember, they were married for 12 years and did have conversations...many of which probably devolved into arguments, esp. at the end. I think we were witnessing yet another dysfunctional conversation pattern, which can be very hard to break.

The other thing--holidays tend to bring out the worst in people--we saw that here.

L

[Jeff Wrangler]

Nope, I gotta part company with you on this one, Leslie. Regardless of whether Alma started it, he's casting it in her face that she's the one who burned him. And that's rude. There might have been more polite ways to respond to her--a simple "No" would have done very nicely--but then, they wouldn't have served the plot.

"Jesus H.!" I can't believe I'm defending Alma against Ennis! 

You're absolutely right, though, about holidays bringing out the worst in people. I'm afraid there are an awful lot of families--especially families with gay and lesbian children--who can testify to that.

[MaineWriter]

Nope, I gotta part company with you on this one, Leslie. Regardless of whether Alma started it, he's casting it in her face that she's the one who burned him. And that's rude. There might have been more polite ways to respond to her--a simple "No" would have done very nicely--but then, they wouldn't have served the plot.

"Jesus H.!" I can't believe I'm defending Alma against Ennis! 

You're absolutely right, though, about holidays bringing out the worst in people. I'm afraid there are an awful lot of families--especially families with gay and lesbian children--who can testify to that.

Sorry, love bunny...ain't gonna let ya get away with this one...

I believe you said in another post that you were "an effete homosexual northeastern snob" -- I'll match you--I am an overeducated, insufferably liberal northeastern snob (or whatever I am)...point being, we have learned something about conversation, verbal sparring and all that.

Alma and Ennis did not have that frame of reference to work from. Their conversations were raw and uninformed. Her comment about not finding someone else to marry was, in our eyes, rude. His response, in our eyes, was rude. In the language of their day to day conversations. it was probably a natural discourse and a large part of the reason they got divorced. They could not communicate effectively. We are seeing just another example of that.

The conversation started as so many of their conversations probably did start. Look at Ennis's posture...it is a place he has been before. It escalated quickly...and unexpectedly...to a place he did not expect. For Alma? I am not sure, need to think on that one.

But I am not casting either one of them in the "being rude" role.

L

[serious crayons]

Here's the opinion of a Midwestern snob: it was kind of rude. But more cheeky than cutting. Her response was REALLY rude -- deliberately cutting. Especially since he was her guest. And was even helping clear the table! I think she was getting back at him for her years of unhappiness.

[starboardlight]

I don't think it's rude, in context. She started it, "After all these years, Ennis, you ain't found anybody else t'marry..."

wasn't it Jack who said those words? I believe Alma said, "you oughta marry again Ennis. me and girls worry about you." or something along that line, which wasn't rude at all, at least not  to this West Coast art geek snob. 

as far as "once burned", when I first heard it, I couldn't help cringing at the words. There wasn't a tone of hurtfulness in his voice, but still the words themselves have that power. It may have just been a bad choice of words on his part, but I did get the feeling that it contributed to her lashing out at him.

[TJ]

While Ennis got rather assertive with Alma on that Thanksgiving day and even grabbed her wrist, I don't think he would have been the type to have hit a woman when they were having a domestic argument.

While the movie has Ennis taking a swing at Jack at the end of their last time together, Annie Proulx never wrote that happened. When Ennis had the fit in the book, Jack was in his own truck with the cab door shut and they were talking through its open window.

The only kind of agressive contact that the guys had was when they were just roughhousing or "wrasslin' for the fun of it."

When Annie Proulx's Ennis left Alma's and Bill's (Monroe in the movie) and went to the Black and Blue Eagle, he got drunk first and then got into a fight.

[starboardlight]

While Ennis got rather assertive with Alma on that Thanksgiving day and even grabbed her wrist, I don't think he would have been the type to have hit a woman when they were having a domestic argument.

While the movie has Ennis taking a swing at Jack at the end of their last time together, Annie Proulx never wrote that happened. When Ennis had the fit in the book, Jack was in his own truck with the cab door shut and they were talking through its open window.

The only kind of agressive contact that the guys had was when they were just roughhousing or "wrasslin' for the fun of it."

When Annie Proulx's Ennis left Alma's and Bill's (Monroe in the movie) and went to the Black and Blue Eagle, he got drunk first and then got into a fight.

yeah, i not sure he could actually hit Alma either, but in any case, there's always the difference between reality and perception. Whether he was or wasn't capable of domestic violence, Alma certainly perceived him to be capable. Michelle Williams herself said that she felt it a strong part of Alma's psychology and motivation.

[TJ]

Some women are very afraid of their husbands or ex-husbands for fear that the men would hit them violently if the situation came up; but, the only violence in their relationship was just verbal with somewhat indirect threats.

And, in some case, the reason for women fearing their husbands came from the fear that their mothers had for their fathers.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Maybe we ought to take another poll, rude or not rude? 

Again I don't have the text with me at work--if I did, I'd never get any work done--but I think the story tells us that Ennis knew from Alma's tone that something was coming in that kitchen conversation, so he must have tensed up when she said he ought to get married again. And I think I've said elsewhere that poor Alma ends up letting out years of pain and frustration, whatever it is that sets her off--it's always looked to me that she's crying as much as being angry and afraid.

Still, on the face of it, I don't see anything obviously provocative in the remark, "You ought to get married again, me and the girls worry about you." It's even kind of nice that she includes herself in the worrying. And he casts back at her that she's the one who burned him.

Since Ennis is the one I identify with, it pleasures me none to say it, but it wasn't very nice of him to come back with that "once burned" remark. After that comment it doesn't surprise me at all that she goes on to let him know that she knows exactly what goes on on those fishin' trips.

[serious crayons]

Am I the only one who finds Alma somewhat annoying? Not just in this scene but throughout the movie? Is it because I'm insensitive? Is it because she's whiny and nagging and wimpy? Is it because she is played by Michelle, who is with Heath in real life, and if it weren't for her he could be mine?

Maybe it's because she's just one more obstacle to Ennis and Jack's being together. Even though it's not her fault, and if she weren't there it wouldn't matter anyway.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Am I the only one who finds Alma somewhat annoying? Not just in this scene but throughout the movie? Is it because I'm insensitive? Is it because she's whiny and nagging and wimpy? Is it because she is played by Michelle, who is with Heath in real life, and if it wasn't for her he could be mine?

Maybe it's because she's just one more obstacle to Ennis and Jack's being together. Even though it's not her fault, and if she weren't there it wouldn't matter anyway.

I think she comes off even worse in the story. There she has a "misery voice" (one of my favorite AP phrases). She uses it when she tries to ask Ennis to get her some smokes as he's running off to the motel with Jack--and I think the implication is pretty clear that Ennis has heard that voice before.

[TJ]

I think that Ennis's "once burned" response was do to the fact that he knew he should never gotten married to a woman in the first place. And, I also thought that Ennis felt pressured, or at least thought he was being pressured, into getting married.

I know I am repeating myself here or what I have posted in another subject thread; but, if Ennis had realized immediately why he thought he felt like someone was pulling his guts out and he thought he had to puke, he would have made an effort to get in touch with or follow Jack up to Lightning Flat. While he was walking in the movie, Ennis was driving in the original story.

While I did not feel like some was pulling on my guts during a separation period for financial reasons, with Ed staying back in California, I had a very empty feeling after I had gotten a motel room the first night on the road. I had left that morning before Ed got home from work (he had agreed with what I thought was best); but, when he got home from work that morning, he told me later, "When I got in the apartment and you weren't there, I wished I had never let you go."

I also think that Alma Beers might have been somewhat immature when they got married, although she was old enough. I have heard women lacking in maturity speak to their husbands or live-in boyfriends like Alma often did in the story and the movie. Some of them even had separation anxiety problems.

[delalluvia]

Nope, I gotta part company with you on this one, Leslie. Regardless of whether Alma started it, he's casting it in her face that she's the one who burned him. And that's rude. There might have been more polite ways to respond to her--a simple "No" would have done very nicely--but then, they wouldn't have served the plot.

Hmmm, well we ARE assuming Ennis is having a good time and really wanted to be there at Thanksgiving in the first place, right?

Did he?

I can just hear Alma inviting Ennis through clenched teeth and Ennis about to say no and the girls chorusing "Pleeeeeeeeease daddy?"

Why would Ennis want to be there?  Being alone is his forte and probably wouldn't bother him.  Seeing everything Monroe has and he hasn't?  Being forced to make polite noises and conversation as he probably feels like a 3rd wheel and a beggar at someone else's table reminding him of his poverty? 

Sounds like a day from hell for Ennis.


I can see why he might feel Alma is 'rubbing it in' and he might be a bit short-tempered.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Hmmm, well we ARE assuming Ennis is having a good time and really wanted to be there at Thanksgiving in the first place, right?

Did he?

I can just hear Alma inviting Ennis through clenched teeth and Ennis about to say no and the girls chorusing "Pleeeeeeeeease daddy?"

Why would Ennis want to be there?  Being alone is his forte and probably wouldn't bother him.  Seeing everything Monroe has and he hasn't?  Being forced to make polite noises and conversation as he probably feels like a 3rd wheel and a beggar at someone else's table reminding him of his poverty? 

Sounds like a day from hell for Ennis.


I can see why he might feel Alma is 'rubbing it in' and he might be a bit short-tempered.

Tell you what, I'm not assuming he's having a good time. I've always assumed he was there for the sake of his daughters, and that was why he was invited. I always figured he was making the best of an unpleasant and difficult situation for the girls' sake. The screen play echoes the story, stating, " Ennis tries to be cheerful for his girls, not wanting to be a sad daddy."

Nor am I saying I don't understand why he might be a bit short-tempered, or that his communications with Alma might be dysfunctional. I understand that perfectly and I agree with it.

But a rude reply is a rude reply, regardless of circumstances, and even if Alma's intent was to needle him, which it may have been.

[TJ]

Here's what is in the book in relation to the thankgiving scene.

Ennis went back to ranch work, hired on here and there, not getting much ahead but glad enough to be around stock again, free to drop things, quit if he had to, and go into the mountains at short notice. He had no serious hard feelings, just a vague sense of getting shortchanged, and showed it was all right by taking Thanksgiving dinner with Alma and her grocer and the kids, sitting between his girls and talking horses to them, telling jokes, trying not to be a sad daddy.

Annie Proulx's Ennis was not exactly happy when he had that dinner at Alma's and the grocer's.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I know this is straying OT on a thread about Alma, but I've never been really sure I understood what Annie Proulx means by "Ennis went back to ranch work"--emphasis on the "went back."

Does this mean he wasn't doing ranch work--except part time on weekends in order to keep his horses--until after Alma divorced him, and he felt free to go back to the kind of work he loved? (And I've always believed that Ennis genuinely did love ranch work.)

In describing the divorce, I seem to remember that AP also says one of the things Alma objects to is Ennis's "yearning" for low-paid ranch work.

So what was he doing all those years after they moved into that apartment in Riverton? Was he on the county road crew--and didn't go back to cowboying until after Alma dumped him? Or was he doing ranch work? Does "Ennis went back to ranch work" mean he just "went back" to doing what he had been doing?

[TJ]

In the movie, Ennis worked for the state highway department BEFORE they all moved to Riverton.

But, it was not that way in the book.

When the Hi-Top folded they moved to a small apartment in Riverton up over a laundry. Ennis got on the highway crew, tolerating it but working weekends at the Rafter B in exchange for keeping his horses out there. The second girl was born and Alma wanted to stay in town near the clinic because the child had an asthmatic wheeze.
   "Ennis, please, no more damn lonesome ranches for us," she said, sitting on his lap, wrapping her thin, freckled arms around him. "Let's get a place here in town?"
   "I guess," said Ennis, slipping his hand up her blouse sleeve and stirring the silky armpit hair, then easing her down, fingers moving up her ribs to the jelly breast, over the round belly and knee and up into the wet gap all the way to the north pole or the equator depending which way you thought you were sailing, working at it until she shuddered and bucked against his hand and he rolled her over, did quickly what she hated. They stayed in the little apartment which he favored because it could be left at any time.

Ennis' (layman's version) psychological profile does fit that of a person who has a self-esteem problem which can be related to a learning disability (he was "farsighted enough to dislike reading anything except Hamley's saddle catalog") and even one's sexual orientation.

He did actually like to work with horses on a ranch and that his why he owned more than one horse to use for work and pleasure.

While Ennis did work hard and he was not lazy, he was not a stable person at all. It also might have had to do with the fact that he really was not a people person and did not like to be around very many people at one time. His uneasiness around other people could have been related to the traumatic experience in seeing the body of Earl when he was around 9 years old.

[kirkmusic]

"Once burned" is only one example of Ennis trying to blame somebody else for his shortcomings.  He does it in the coffee shop scene with Cassie.  "Looks like I got the message, in any case."  I think there was one more example somewhere but I can't recall at the moment.  It's something he needs to work on if he doesn't want people reading him the riot act now and then as a result.

[serious crayons]

It's something he needs to work on if he doesn't want people reading him the riot act now and then as a result.

LOL, Kirk. It's hard to imagine Ennis "working on" anything like that. However, rude as "once burned" might have been, I don't think the divorce is entirely the result of Ennis' shortcomings. He is completely to blame in the relationship with Cassie, though, especially for breaking it off so insensitively. You know, I've never thought that line made total sense. "Looks like I got the message" -- and yet it's Cassie who has taken action and is dating someone else.

One more thing in regard to an earlier question. I do think it's the "Jack Nasty" remark that really sets Ennis off -- his face changes and becomes much more enraged at that very moment. However, it's impossible to tell whether it's because of the insult or because of the implications or both.

[Jeff Wrangler]

You know, I've never thought that line made total sense. "Looks like I got the message" -- and yet it's Cassie who has taken action and is dating someone else.

Hey, Katherine, I'm not sure I see why that line doesn't make sense to you. Cassie has just told Ennis that she's left all these messages for him--which he's plainly ignored--and now he sees her with another guy. That's the message--she's dating someone else. It does seem to be an example of Ennis blaming someone else for his own actions, or inactions, as the case may be.

I'm beginning to realize I've never really paid enough attention to this scene--in particular, the implication that Ennis has been ignoring Cassie after his confrontation with Jack. Next time I make/find the time to watch the DVD, I really need to study Heath's face before Cassie runs out and Carl follows her. The stage directions in the screenplay read as follows:

[Cassie] Starts crying as she rushes off to CARL, who waits by the door. CARL looks back at ENNIS; ENNIS shoots CARL a murderous look.

Hunh? Does he? And why? It's just been made abundantly clear that he doesn't want Cassie, so why should he resent Carl?

Anyway, I think the most spectacular example of Ennis blaming someone else for his own shortcomings is in the confrontation with Jack:

"It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this. I'm nothin'. I'm nowhere."

Well, excuse me, but Ennis has made life choices. He has chosen to stick to low-paying work that he can quit at short notice to go off with Jack, but it's terribly unfair to blame that on Jack.

[delalluvia]

One more thing in regard to an earlier question. I do think it's the "Jack Nasty" remark that really sets Ennis off -- his face changes and becomes much more enraged at that very moment. However, it's impossible to tell whether it's because of the insult or because of the implications or both.

Agree Kat.  Ennis is upset, but he's keeping his temper and keeping to his lame cover story.  He only explodes when Alma bad-mouths Jack.  It's as if Alma is blaming Jack.  He's the nasty one.  And Ennis doesn't take kindly to people bad mouthing those he cares about, even Alma ("Now you shut up about Alma, this ain't her fault.").

[serious crayons]

Hey, Katherine, I'm not sure I see why that line doesn't make sense to you. Cassie has just told Ennis that she's left all these messages for him--which he's plainly ignored--and now he sees her with another guy. That's the message--she's dating someone else. It does seem to be an example of Ennis blaming someone else for his own actions, or inactions, as the case may be.

I'm beginning to realize I've never really paid enough attention to this scene--in particular, the implication that Ennis has been ignoring Cassie after his confrontation with Jack. Next time I make/find the time to watch the DVD, I really need to study Heath's face before Cassie runs out and Carl follows her. The stage directions in the screenplay read as follows:

[Cassie] Starts crying as she rushes off to CARL, who waits by the door. CARL looks back at ENNIS; ENNIS shoots CARL a murderous look.

Hunh? Does he? And why? It's just been made abundantly clear that he doesn't want Cassie, so why should he resent Carl?

Anyway, I think the most spectacular example of Ennis blaming someone else for his own shortcomings is in the confrontation with Jack:

"It's because of you, Jack, that I'm like this. I'm nothin'. I'm nowhere."

Well, excuse me, but Ennis has made life choices. He has chosen to stick to low-paying work that he can quit at short notice to go off with Jack, but it's terribly unfair to blame that on Jack.

Jeff, in answer to your first question, the line seems to stop one step short of logical -- he got the message, she took the action. What he should say is "Looks like I got the message and that, in return, you got my message (which was implied by my lack of reponse) (and so are now dating Carl)." But that would be kind of an awkward line, I guess.

I've recently come to realize that the Cassie scene is big. NOT because Ennis shoots Carl a murderous glance. He doesn't. What he does do, right after she says "Girls don't fall in love with fun," is suddenly look up, stop chewing pie and stare into space for several long moments, as though deep in thought. During that time Cassie flees, which he pays little attention to. He's indifferent to Carl; he only said that because, as you said, he was lashing out angrily to deflect blame, as he is prone to do. My interpretation that upon hearing the word "love" he realizes something.

Speaking of which, you're right that the lake scene line is a classic example. He undoubtedly knows he is more to blame for the unsatisfactory situation. But Ennis' lines are much better this way than if he admitted his guilt. Especially following "Why don't you then? Why don't you just let me be?" the implication is that even though Ennis knows they're both miserable and that it's his fault, he is helpless to take any action himself, either to live with Jack (which he's made clear he won't do) OR to break things off, which he can't do because he loves Jack. Though, I now suspect, he may not have thought of it as love before hearing Cassie use the word. So you may have been right about that.

Jeff, just as you encouraged me to buy StS, I would encourage you to take 134 minutes and watch the DVD. I hadn't watched it myself since it was in theaters, so about two months, until last week, when I rented it and watched it twice. I knew all the lines, but found I had remembered a lot of the visual stuff -- especially facial expressions -- differently. Also, I felt more observant, more aware of details and subtexts, after all this time discussing.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Jeff, in answer to your first question, the line seems to stop one step short of logical -- he got the message, she took the action. What he should say is "Looks like I got the message and that, in return, you got my message (which was implied by my lack of reponse) (and so are now dating Carl)." But that would be kind of an awkward line, I guess.

Thanks. Wouldn't that also imply that Ennis was consciously sending Cassie a message? Oh, sure enough, he was sending her one by not responding to her messages, but was this a conscious plan of action? I'm not sure. I'm not defending him here. I've just seen guys do this sort of thing--lie to themselves that they're procrastinating when they really just don't have the balls to break up with someone.

I've recently come to realize that the Cassie scene is big. NOT because Ennis shoots Carl a murderous glance. He doesn't. What he does do, right after she says "Girls don't fall in love with fun," is suddenly look up, stop chewing pie and stare into space for several long moments, as though deep in thought. During that time Cassie flees, which he pays little attention to. He's indifferent to Carl; he only said that because, as you said, he was lashing out angrily to deflect blame, as he is prone to do. My interpretation that upon hearing the word "love" he realizes something.

I'm coming to realize that, too. Heretofore, when I've thought of it all, I just regarded is as a necessary wrapping up of the Cassie subplot. But there's clearly more than just that going on here.

Speaking of which, you're right that the lake scene line is a classic example. He undoubtedly knows he is more to blame for the unsatisfactory situation. But Ennis' lines are much better this way than if he admitted his guilt. Especially following "Why don't you then? Why don't you just let me be?" the implication is that even though Ennis knows they're both miserable and that it's his fault, he is helpless to take any action himself, either to live with Jack (which he's made clear he won't do) OR to break things off, which he can't do because he loves Jack. Though, I now suspect, he may not have thought of it as love before hearing Cassie use the word. So you may have been right about that.

Jeff, just as you encouraged me to buy StS, I would encourage you to take 134 minutes and watch the DVD. I hadn't watched it myself since it was in theaters, so about two months, until last week, when I rented it and watched it twice. I knew all the lines, but found I had remembered a lot of the visual stuff -- especially facial expressions -- differently. Also, I felt more observant, more aware of details and subtexts, after all this time discussing.

Oh, not to worry, I have the DVD. I bought it on the release day, and I did my gay civic duty and paid more than I would have had to pay elsewhere by buying it at our local independent GLBT bookstore. And I made a real, if private, event out of watching it for the first time. I just haven't been able to make myself a block of two and a half hours to watch it again since (I hate watching movies on video in "chunks"). I could be watching it now, but here I am. ...

[TJ]

"Once burned" is only one example of Ennis trying to blame somebody else for his shortcomings.  He does it in the coffee shop scene with Cassie.  "Looks like I got the message, in any case."  I think there was one more example somewhere but I can't recall at the moment.  It's something he needs to work on if he doesn't want people reading him the riot act now and then as a result.

I would ask why the screenplay writers even had to create that scene in the first place. They took one sentence found in the original story and made several chapters out of it.

And they did the same thing with Jack, too, in regard creating a chapter dedicated to another woman, whom they named LaShawn.

[serious crayons]

Thanks. Wouldn't that also imply that Ennis was consciously sending Cassie a message? Oh, sure enough, he was sending her one by not responding to her messages, but was this a conscious plan of action? I'm not sure. I'm not defending him here. I've just seen guys do this sort of thing--lie to themselves that they're procrastinating when they really just don't have the balls to break up with someone.

Yes. Feel free to defend Ennis to me anytime! But in this case he was cruel (as he semi-acknowleges, by saying "I'm sorry"). But what I mean specifically is --  and this is probably not worth all this discussion because it's such a minor point -- it doesn't make sense to say HE got the message. SHE got the message -- his lack of response, which really is, unavoidably, a conscious if insensitive message -- and started dating Carl. So he should say, "looks like YOU got the message, in any case."

I'm coming to realize that, too. Heretofore, when I've thought of it all, I just regarded is as a necessary wrapping up of the Cassie subplot. But there's clearly more than just that going on here.

YES! That is so true. And I formerly thought the exact same thing. I figured this scene was all about showing Ennis looking depressed after his argument with Jack, and wrapping up the Cassie subplot, and also offering the breakup as evidence that he had reached a new level of awareness regarding Jack, or his sexuality, or whatever. I still think all those things are going on. But something that (I hate to keep saying) I read on imdb suggested there might be more to it. And sure enough, it's totally there, in his eyes and face, as soon as Cassie says the word "love." Watch it. It's an epiphany for him.

Oh, not to worry, I have the DVD. I bought it on the release day, and I did my gay civic duty and paid more than I would have had to pay elsewhere by buying it at our local independent GLBT bookstore. And I made a real, if private, event out of watching it for the first time. I just haven't been able to make myself a block of two and a half hours to watch it again since (I hate watching movies on video in "chunks"). I could be watching it now, but here I am. ...

Well, that's what I mean, man! Take 134 minutes off these boards and watch it! I guarantee that -- if you're anything like I was, anyway -- you will see the movie in a whole new way. I arrogantly thought I knew it all, as you know from reading my vehement arguments about this or that. But when I watched it last week I discovered at least a dozen new things, partly as a result of all this time we've spent arguing about it. And I'm not foolin.

(PS Well, why don't you, then? Is it time? Technology? The fear that you will be sick of it? Believe me, I was afraid of all of those things myself, but everything worked out fine.)

[Jeff Wrangler]

To his credit, at least, according to the stage directions, Ennis knows he's hurt Cassie, but he doesn't know what to do about it.

As for the DVD, there's never enough time, never enough. . . . Off now to do a friend a favor and read some fanfiction. 

[serious crayons]

According to the movie, he says "I'm sorry."

[Jeff Wrangler]

According to the movie, he says "I'm sorry."

At least that line made it into the published screenplay!