Author Topic: If you were Alma............  (Read 21809 times)

Offline starboardlight

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Re: If you were Alma............
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2006, 12:59:50 am »
I don't think it's rude, in context. She started it, "After all these years, Ennis, you ain't found anybody else t'marry..."

wasn't it Jack who said those words? I believe Alma said, "you oughta marry again Ennis. me and girls worry about you." or something along that line, which wasn't rude at all, at least not  to this West Coast art geek snob.  :P

as far as "once burned", when I first heard it, I couldn't help cringing at the words. There wasn't a tone of hurtfulness in his voice, but still the words themselves have that power. It may have just been a bad choice of words on his part, but I did get the feeling that it contributed to her lashing out at him.
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

TJ

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Re: If you were Alma............
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2006, 01:07:57 am »
While Ennis got rather assertive with Alma on that Thanksgiving day and even grabbed her wrist, I don't think he would have been the type to have hit a woman when they were having a domestic argument.

While the movie has Ennis taking a swing at Jack at the end of their last time together, Annie Proulx never wrote that happened. When Ennis had the fit in the book, Jack was in his own truck with the cab door shut and they were talking through its open window.

The only kind of agressive contact that the guys had was when they were just roughhousing or "wrasslin' for the fun of it."

When Annie Proulx's Ennis left Alma's and Bill's (Monroe in the movie) and went to the Black and Blue Eagle, he got drunk first and then got into a fight.

Offline starboardlight

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Re: If you were Alma............
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2006, 01:20:13 am »
While Ennis got rather assertive with Alma on that Thanksgiving day and even grabbed her wrist, I don't think he would have been the type to have hit a woman when they were having a domestic argument.

While the movie has Ennis taking a swing at Jack at the end of their last time together, Annie Proulx never wrote that happened. When Ennis had the fit in the book, Jack was in his own truck with the cab door shut and they were talking through its open window.

The only kind of agressive contact that the guys had was when they were just roughhousing or "wrasslin' for the fun of it."

When Annie Proulx's Ennis left Alma's and Bill's (Monroe in the movie) and went to the Black and Blue Eagle, he got drunk first and then got into a fight.

yeah, i not sure he could actually hit Alma either, but in any case, there's always the difference between reality and perception. Whether he was or wasn't capable of domestic violence, Alma certainly perceived him to be capable. Michelle Williams herself said that she felt it a strong part of Alma's psychology and motivation.
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

TJ

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Re: If you were Alma............
« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2006, 01:41:09 am »
Some women are very afraid of their husbands or ex-husbands for fear that the men would hit them violently if the situation came up; but, the only violence in their relationship was just verbal with somewhat indirect threats.

And, in some case, the reason for women fearing their husbands came from the fear that their mothers had for their fathers.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: If you were Alma............
« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2006, 09:22:42 am »
Maybe we ought to take another poll, rude or not rude?  ;D

Again I don't have the text with me at work--if I did, I'd never get any work done--but I think the story tells us that Ennis knew from Alma's tone that something was coming in that kitchen conversation, so he must have tensed up when she said he ought to get married again. And I think I've said elsewhere that poor Alma ends up letting out years of pain and frustration, whatever it is that sets her off--it's always looked to me that she's crying as much as being angry and afraid.

Still, on the face of it, I don't see anything obviously provocative in the remark, "You ought to get married again, me and the girls worry about you." It's even kind of nice that she includes herself in the worrying. And he casts back at her that she's the one who burned him.

Since Ennis is the one I identify with, it pleasures me none to say it, but it wasn't very nice of him to come back with that "once burned" remark. After that comment it doesn't surprise me at all that she goes on to let him know that she knows exactly what goes on on those fishin' trips.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: If you were Alma............
« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2006, 10:02:00 am »
Am I the only one who finds Alma somewhat annoying? Not just in this scene but throughout the movie? Is it because I'm insensitive? Is it because she's whiny and nagging and wimpy? Is it because she is played by Michelle, who is with Heath in real life, and if it weren't for her he could be mine? ;)

Maybe it's because she's just one more obstacle to Ennis and Jack's being together. Even though it's not her fault, and if she weren't there it wouldn't matter anyway.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2006, 01:39:40 pm by latjoreme »

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: If you were Alma............
« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2006, 11:44:57 am »
Am I the only one who finds Alma somewhat annoying? Not just in this scene but throughout the movie? Is it because I'm insensitive? Is it because she's whiny and nagging and wimpy? Is it because she is played by Michelle, who is with Heath in real life, and if it wasn't for her he could be mine? ;)

Maybe it's because she's just one more obstacle to Ennis and Jack's being together. Even though it's not her fault, and if she weren't there it wouldn't matter anyway.

I think she comes off even worse in the story. There she has a "misery voice" (one of my favorite AP phrases). She uses it when she tries to ask Ennis to get her some smokes as he's running off to the motel with Jack--and I think the implication is pretty clear that Ennis has heard that voice before.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

TJ

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Re: If you were Alma............
« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2006, 04:11:07 pm »
I think that Ennis's "once burned" response was do to the fact that he knew he should never gotten married to a woman in the first place. And, I also thought that Ennis felt pressured, or at least thought he was being pressured, into getting married.

I know I am repeating myself here or what I have posted in another subject thread; but, if Ennis had realized immediately why he thought he felt like someone was pulling his guts out and he thought he had to puke, he would have made an effort to get in touch with or follow Jack up to Lightning Flat. While he was walking in the movie, Ennis was driving in the original story.

While I did not feel like some was pulling on my guts during a separation period for financial reasons, with Ed staying back in California, I had a very empty feeling after I had gotten a motel room the first night on the road. I had left that morning before Ed got home from work (he had agreed with what I thought was best); but, when he got home from work that morning, he told me later, "When I got in the apartment and you weren't there, I wished I had never let you go."

I also think that Alma Beers might have been somewhat immature when they got married, although she was old enough. I have heard women lacking in maturity speak to their husbands or live-in boyfriends like Alma often did in the story and the movie. Some of them even had separation anxiety problems.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: If you were Alma............
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2006, 07:21:07 pm »
Nope, I gotta part company with you on this one, Leslie. Regardless of whether Alma started it, he's casting it in her face that she's the one who burned him. And that's rude. There might have been more polite ways to respond to her--a simple "No" would have done very nicely--but then, they wouldn't have served the plot.

Hmmm, well we ARE assuming Ennis is having a good time and really wanted to be there at Thanksgiving in the first place, right?

Did he?

I can just hear Alma inviting Ennis through clenched teeth and Ennis about to say no and the girls chorusing "Pleeeeeeeeease daddy?"

Why would Ennis want to be there?  Being alone is his forte and probably wouldn't bother him.  Seeing everything Monroe has and he hasn't?  Being forced to make polite noises and conversation as he probably feels like a 3rd wheel and a beggar at someone else's table reminding him of his poverty? 

Sounds like a day from hell for Ennis.


I can see why he might feel Alma is 'rubbing it in' and he might be a bit short-tempered.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2006, 07:22:46 pm by delalluvia »

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: If you were Alma............
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2006, 10:19:25 pm »
Hmmm, well we ARE assuming Ennis is having a good time and really wanted to be there at Thanksgiving in the first place, right?

Did he?

I can just hear Alma inviting Ennis through clenched teeth and Ennis about to say no and the girls chorusing "Pleeeeeeeeease daddy?"

Why would Ennis want to be there?  Being alone is his forte and probably wouldn't bother him.  Seeing everything Monroe has and he hasn't?  Being forced to make polite noises and conversation as he probably feels like a 3rd wheel and a beggar at someone else's table reminding him of his poverty? 

Sounds like a day from hell for Ennis.


I can see why he might feel Alma is 'rubbing it in' and he might be a bit short-tempered.

Tell you what, I'm not assuming he's having a good time. I've always assumed he was there for the sake of his daughters, and that was why he was invited. I always figured he was making the best of an unpleasant and difficult situation for the girls' sake. The screen play echoes the story, stating, " Ennis tries to be cheerful for his girls, not wanting to be a sad daddy."

Nor am I saying I don't understand why he might be a bit short-tempered, or that his communications with Alma might be dysfunctional. I understand that perfectly and I agree with it.

But a rude reply is a rude reply, regardless of circumstances, and even if Alma's intent was to needle him, which it may have been.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.