Am I the only person...

[two_bloody_shirts]

...who gets really upset when other people assume things about this film? I'm asking this on the Tremblay section because I know you folks are quite rational and you are very dedicated to the film.

I have been fixated on this film for a long time now.  However, I get so angry when people assume things that can't possibly be real or realistic in regard to this film.  One recurring theme is when people assume to hear lines which aren't in the film and rationally wouldn't be there.  Secondly, they keep bringing up that Ennis wasn't gay (which some say is debatable, I say isn't).  Thirdly, they bring up numerous scenarios about how Jack died.

I am sick of it.  I'm tired of being angry and debating with people.  I wish I could quit by passion about this film but I can't.

I can't believe it get so irritated about these things.  Am I the only one?   

[vkm91941]

...who gets really upset when other people assume things about this film? I'm asking this on the Tremblay section because I know you folks are quite rational and you are very dedicated to the film.

I have been fixated on this film for a long time now.  However, I get so angry when people assume things that can't possibly be real or realistic in regard to this film.  One recurring theme is when people assume to hear lines which aren't in the film and rationally wouldn't be there.  Secondly, they keep bringing up that Ennis wasn't gay (which some say is debatable, I say isn't).  Thirdly, they bring up numerous scenarios about how Jack died.

I am sick of it.  I'm tired of being angry and debating with people.  I wish I could quit by passion about this film but I can't.

I can't believe it get so irritated about these things.  Am I the only one?   

No, you're not alone... That whole business of the "I love you" that some are so vehment about really gets to me.  I have a brand new state of the art surround sound system and I listed at full blast, and then again with the head phone on adjusting the band width and frequency and guess what ..NO I love you... besides WE KNOW Ennis would not have EVER said it. It's only wishful thinking on the part of those viewer.... so no You're definitely not alone 

[slayers_creek_oth]

...who gets really upset when other people assume things about this film? I'm asking this on the Tremblay section because I know you folks are quite rational and you are very dedicated to the film.

I have been fixated on this film for a long time now.  However, I get so angry when people assume things that can't possibly be real or realistic in regard to this film.  One recurring theme is when people assume to hear lines which aren't in the film and rationally wouldn't be there.  Secondly, they keep bringing up that Ennis wasn't gay (which some say is debatable, I say isn't).  Thirdly, they bring up numerous scenarios about how Jack died.

I am sick of it.  I'm tired of being angry and debating with people.  I wish I could quit by passion about this film but I can't.

I can't believe it get so irritated about these things.  Am I the only one?   

Hell no you are not alone!  The Jack/death thing is something that has always bugged me.....and the 'gay cowboy movie' title pisses me off too.......

[two_bloody_shirts]

No, you're not alone... That whole business of the "I love you" that is some are so vehment about really gets to me.  I have a brand new state of the art surround sound system and I listed at full blast, and then again with the head phone on adjusting the band width and frequency and guess what ..NO I love you... besides WE KNOW Ennis would not have EVER said it.  so no You're definitely not alone 

I am almost at the point of wanting to strangle some people because of this issue.  The whole point of Annie Proulx's story, from where I come from, is that Ennis couldn't vocalize his feelings for Jack.  Even after he died, he still couldn't do it.  The lines were never in the screenplay, Heath never talked about it in interviews.  You'd think that'd come up somehow.  And when I try to rationalize, please just go on and on about how beautiful and wonderful it is. 

I should not get so angry.  I really need to start focusing elsewhere.

[serious crayons]

No, I understand what you mean, TBS. Sometimes I wish everybody would interpret the film the same way I do. I find some other people's interpretations frustrating and depressing (ahem, you know who you are!).

On the other hand, if we all agreed, what would we still have to talk about? And some of the most interesting conversations I've had here have been with people with whom I vehemently disagreed. But frankly, I'm a pretty argumentative person by nature. Or so I've been told. So I don't really get angry about it.

I have noticed people hearing lines I don't believe are really there, or interpreting motivations in ways I don't agree with. I would love, at this point, to take on anybody who contends that Ennis wasn't gay (the last time I did, it was with a gay man, and it was interesting). As for Jack's death, I still think that's extremely debatable.

There are other issues. Did Ennis know he loved Jack and that Jack loved him the whole time, or did he realize that only after Jack's death? Did Jack know Ennis loved him, despite the lack of verbal endearments? Was Ennis' big crisis in the final argument a matter of owning up to his sexuality, or fearing he was losing Jack's love? How does the book compare to the movie? Which of the characters is more appealing, and why? I could go on. There are lots of conflicting opinions on these things. But IMO, those disagreements are the fodder of many fascinating debates that force me to consider interpretations that probably never would have occured to me otherwise, and, as a result, to analyze my own opinions more closely.

I can't quit either my passion about this film, OR this website. In fact, the two passions feed each other.

[Ray]

Those who say "it isn't so" simply don't want to acknowledge that part in themselves.  We know passionately that it IS so and why should we try to convince anyone of our understanding.  we are lucky because we see it.  They are not because they don't.  Rather simple really!

[RouxB]

Some say tomato, some say brussell sprout. I have had my moments of frustration over some wacky interpretations (Jack committed suicide, Lureen killed him, the sheep could talk) but, bottom line, people can think and say what they want. I don't need agreement to feel validated-well that isn't even remotely true, I do need agreement to feel validated but I'm trying to get over it. This movie means a lot to a lot of people and I gotta cut them some slack because I have some beliefs that I know would cause people to want to put me out with the sheep!

 

[serious crayons]

the sheep could talk

?!!!??!!? LOL. RouxB, I thought I'd heard everything, but I haven't heard THAT one!

I have some beliefs that I know would cause people to want to put me out with the sheep!

Let's hear 'em! Get a debate going! We need some new things to argue about, or we'll be back at sorry, s'alright! So are you saying you DO think the sheep could talk?

[TJ]

Oh, I get peeved a little, but not enough to send a hateful PM individual forum members, when people outside of the USA not only don't know much about life in Wyoming during the years from 1943 through 1983, they don't even know much about the Old West of the USA either  . . . AND . . . they PM me because they feel that they have to tell me off and call me hateful names.

I am not an expert on ranchboys or shepherds in the USA. But, I certainly have known real ranchboys and people who had sheep during my 63 plus years on earth. I have lived on farms or worked on a farm, while living in the country, and the nearest neighbor was a rancher and not a farmer.

Oh, I have personally known real old time cowboys, one of whom was a teenage friend of Will Rogers, the famous Cherokee who grew up on his father's Dog Iron Ranch in the Cherokee Nation in Indian Territory.

[ednbarby]

Secretly, I'm with you, Spark.  I get especially annoyed at those who contend that Ennis "wasn't really gay."  Yeah, OK.  And based on their "logic," Lureen really wasn't straight, either.  In her own way, she too dedicated her entire adult life to Jack, but had she not met him, she would have been with other women.   

I'd *really* like to see that one laid to rest.

[TJ]

Read the Annie Proulx's book and you will see that Lureen (no maiden name given) Twist was self-centered and was not devoted/dedicated in her life to Jack or their son at all.

As to what cultural/educational/social grouping Lureen belonged in Childress, Texas, the book does not say. Owners of farm and equipment companies don't necessarily have social status in a community.

I am an ol' fuddy-duddy here in regard the up-dated definition borrowed-from-some-webster's interpretation of the word, "gay." (The word "Webster's" is in the public domain. Anyone can make up a dictionary and use it in the title.)

Ennis Del Mar, because he was in complete denial of his homosexual orientation, was not gay. He was not happy at all and feared for his live because of his sexual orientation. I don't think he was bisexual however; I have known quite a few homosexual men who had been heterosexually married, all for the wrong reasons, too.

And on another note with modern usage/misapplication of words, all heterosexuals are not "straight." One who is "straight" is one who always tries to do the right things."

In their original definitions, "gay" is not the opposite of "straight."

[serious crayons]

Secretly, I'm with you, Spark.  I get especially annoyed at those who contend that Ennis "wasn't really gay."  Yeah, OK.  And based on their "logic," Lureen really wasn't straight, either.  In her own way, she too dedicated her entire adult life to Jack, but had she not met him, she would have been with other women.   

I'd *really* like to see that one laid to rest.

Where do you guys hear arguments like this? I don't talk about the movie anywhere except here. I haven't been to imdb in days or weeks. I stopped mentioning it to friends and family long ago. So I rarely hear those really ridiculous claims anymore.

[RouxB]

Well Barby-the argument is about to be set up because one of those "holy grail" interpretations that I can find a way to ague was juuuusssstttt offered in one of the previous 4 posts... hmmm what could it be?

Some swear that when Ennis was minding the sheep during Aguire's visit, one of the sheep whispered to Ennis "Jack loves you, go to him, s'alright". I'm not sure if I heard it, my DVD is kinda dark  

 

[ednbarby]

I don't hear it here, of course, Katherine.  But I've heard it in the past on the IMDb board and from people I know personally who've seen the movie - one who loved it and has seen it many times and one who didn't like it much at all.  The argument is that Ennis wasn't really gay - that had he not met and fallen in love with Jack, he would have been perfectly fine with being just with women.  Now to the extent that it took Jack's dedication and perserverence to bring the real Ennis out, I can agree that he most likely never would have been with a man sexually if not for Jack.  But that doesn't mean he wouldn't have deep down wanted to.  Your orientation is your orientation.  You can deny it, but you cannot change it.  It'd be like trying to will your irises to be blue instead of brown.

TJ, I was just making the flipside Lureen argument to show how ludicrous the former is.  Sorry I wasn't more clear on that one.  Believe me, I know she wasn't really dedicated to Jack. 

[serious crayons]

I don't hear it here, of course, Katherine.  But I've heard it in the past on the IMDb board and from people I know personally who've seen the movie - one who loved it and has seen it many times and one who didn't like it much at all.  The argument is that Ennis wasn't really gay - that had he not met and fallen in love with Jack, he would have been perfectly fine with being just with women.  Now to the extent that it took Jack's dedication and perserverence to bring the real Ennis out, I can agree that he most likely never would have been with a man sexually if not for Jack.  But that doesn't mean he wouldn't have deep down wanted to.  Your orientation is your orientation.  You can deny it, but you cannot change it.  It'd be like trying to will your irises to be blue instead of brown.

TJ, I was just making the flipside Lureen argument to show how ludicrous the former is.  Sorry I wasn't more clear on that one.  Believe me, I know she wasn't really dedicated to Jack. 

Oh, I know the gist of the argument. I remember it plenty from imdb. It's silly, and it ignores any number of clues in the movie.

But Lureen wasn't really dedicated to Jack? Hunh? Or am I not getting your meaning?

[TJ]

The homophobic so-called "Christian" fundamentalist religious right believe that no "one is really gay/homosexual;" they believe that they are rebelling agains the way God created them to be naturally. Those ignorant people go so far to say that homosexuality does not occur in nature and only human beings have homosexual sex.

They also believe that there are only two genders, male and female, too, not only in the animal kingdom, in humans, too. Because they literally believe the part of the Bible where it says when God created man, he created them male and female.

Those people have never even lived on a farm. I have seen young bulls who more interested in each other sexually than a heifer who was ready to be bred when I was on the farm.

[silkncense]

"It is my feeling that a story is not finished until it is read, and that the reader finishes it through his or her life experience, prejudices, world view and thoughts." -- Annie Proulx

By the way Annie Proulx writes it seems clear that she does not intend to make every point/action/intention or result specific. 

That to me is the ultimate beauty and intelligence of her writing.

[TJ]

 
"It is my feeling that a story is not finished until it is read, and that the reader finishes it through his or her life experience, prejudices, world view and thoughts." -- Annie Proulx
 
Annie Proulx wrote Brokeback Mountain as an outsider, a heterosexual woman, looking on. I actually like the way that she did that.

Annie Proulx has admitted that she did not have all the answers to questions that she had about her subjects of Ennis Del Mar and Jack Twist.

But, as a person who has had two courses related to literary criticism (one secular and one religious), one needs to try to understand the life experience, prejudices, the world view and the thoughts of the author of the original work first of all.

But, I have found on the internet in various forum boards (not so much in this one) and in Yahoo discussion groups related to BbM that some women who are admittedly exclusively heterosexual in their sexual orientation think they know everything that there is to know about men who are exclusively homosexual in their sexual orientation. They even think they know gays better than gays know themselves.

[Meryl]

My beef is not with people who see the movie and come up with all these wacky theories.  It's with people who make assumptions without seeing it at all.

How can you argue with someone who refuses to see it because it shows men in intimate situations and has the nerve to make them sympathetic?  What's more, they look on you as some sort of wacko/perv for liking a movie with such a distasteful subject.

It's alright to laugh at homosexuals in our homophobic society, but treat them seriously, in a critically-acclaimed vehicle, and the walls go up pronto.   People start saying that it's liberal propaganda, it has an "agenda," etc., etc.  They act like it's an attack instead of a movie.

I don't go to horror movies because I find them distasteful, so I can't really condemn people for not wanting to see something they don't think they'll enjoy.  But that doesn't stop me being angry at them and at our society for making this beautiful film out to be something nasty and corrupting.   It's just so wrong!! 

[serious crayons]

How can you argue with someone who refuses to see it because it shows men in intimate situations and has the nerve to make them sympathetic?  What's more, they look on you as some sort of wacko/perv for liking a movie with such a distasteful subject.

It's alright to laugh at homosexuals in our homophobic society, but treat them seriously, in a critically-acclaimed vehicle, and the walls go up pronto.   People start saying that it's liberal propaganda, it has an "agenda," etc., etc.  They act like it's an attack instead of a movie.

I just don't have time for people like that. I am as contemptuous of them as I am for racists or any other bigots. I don't take them seriously, don't consider it worth my time to engage them in argument. I don't agree that this movie promotes any specific "agenda" -- but so what if it did? It would be a perfectly legitimate agenda to promote!!! I don't go to horror movies either, but I don't consider watching people chop each other up to be anywhere near in the same category as watching men in love. (I know you don't either, Meryl, but the point is, don't let yourself get sidetracked by that analogy -- it is ridiculous; this goes way beyond matters of cinematic taste.) To consider those people's point of view worth debating is giving it way too much credibility. They are idiots. Treat them with the contempt they deserve.

[vkm91941]

But, I have found on the internet in various forum boards (not so much in this one) and in Yahoo discussion groups related to BbM that some women who are admittedly exclusively heterosexual in their sexual orientation think they know everything that there is to know about men who are exclusively homosexual in their sexual orientation. They even think they know gays better than gays know themselves.

That would be a very foolish assertion to make at least and a gross over generalization at worst.  Anyone, male or female, gay or straight,  cannot accurately claim to know the heart, mind or life experiences of another individual regardless of orientation. I am sorry TJ that some woman or women somewhere made emphatic sweeping statements that upset you.

[ednbarby]

Oh, I know the gist of the argument. I remember it plenty from imdb. It's silly, and it ignores any number of clues in the movie.

But Lureen wasn't really dedicated to Jack? Hunh? Or am I not getting your meaning?

Ya know, on second thought, you're right, Katherine.  I do think Lureen loved Jack.  Very much, in fact.  No, she didn't completely know him.  But she went after him after just one look - she wanted him and knew, or so she thought, how to get him.  She never understood why he couldn't love her completely because, again, she didn't know him completely.  She became embittered because of the lack of knowledge - my husband is drifting away from me, and I don't know why.  Is there someone else?  Or is it just me?  That's harder in a way than not knowing, I think.  And I think on second thought that to call her self-serving and incapable of loving him is harsh.  You can clearly hear the grief in her voice when she's telling Ennis what happened.  Yes, the little voice is as cold as ice, but it cracks a little on "He was only 39 years old" and on telling Ennis how he should get up to see his folks in Lightning Flat.  Only a woman who truly loved her husband would be that charitable to the man she realizes was the love of his life and the reason she could never have his heart.  I don't think Alma would have done the same if the shoe were on the other foot.  I know that's a stretch and maybe harsh, but I think she was more bitter than Lureen only because she knew about the two of them for a lot longer and had a lot of time to stew over it.

[ednbarby]

The homophobic so-called "Christian" fundamentalist religious right believe that no "one is really gay/homosexual;" they believe that they are rebelling agains the way God created them to be naturally. Those ignorant people go so far to say that homosexuality does not occur in nature and only human beings have homosexual sex.

They also believe that there are only two genders, male and female, too, not only in the animal kingdom, in humans, too. Because they literally believe the part of the Bible where it says when God created man, he created them male and female.

Those people have never even lived on a farm. I have seen young bulls who more interested in each other sexually than a heifer who was ready to be bred when I was on the farm.

Yes.  This is precisely what I mean.  And it's generally the fundamentalists who make this argument.  It cuts me to the bone every time because I know this is what they're getting at, and it's just so monumentally wrong.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Ya know, on second thought, you're right, Katherine.  I do think Lureen loved Jack.  Very much, in fact.  No, she didn't completely know him.  But she went after him after just one look - she wanted him and knew, or so she thought, how to get him.  She never understood why he couldn't love her completely because, again, she didn't know him completely.  She became embittered because of the lack of knowledge - my husband is drifting away from me, and I don't know why.  Is there someone else?  Or is it just me?  That's harder in a way than not knowing, I think.  And I think on second thought that to call her self-serving and incapable of loving him is harsh.  You can clearly hear the grief in her voice when she's telling Ennis what happened.  Yes, the little voice is as cold as ice, but it cracks a little on "He was only 39 years old" and on telling Ennis how he should get up to see his folks in Lightning Flat.  Only a woman who truly loved her husband would be that charitable to the man she realizes was the love of his life and the reason she could never have his heart.  I don't think Alma would have done the same if the shoe were on the other foot.  I know that's a stretch and maybe harsh, but I think she was more bitter than Lureen only because she knew about the two of them for a lot longer and had a lot of time to stew over it.

Barb,

That's a nice and very perceptive analysis of Lureen. My compliments! I think she does come off rather better in the film than she does in the AP original. I'm thinking specifically here of the story's final fishing trip, where Jack complains so bitterly about his wife's refusal to recognize that their son apparently has a learning disability. But it is too harsh to call her incapable of loving Jack.

Anyway, rather than have a specific beef about people making assumptions about the film, I have a deep disappointment in the response of one particular individual. He's an old classmate from graduate school, an expatriot who has been living in London for years, and also gay. I had an e-mail from him a couple of weeks ago in which he dismissed the film as "much ado about nothing" because "nothing much happens." I've been so dumbstruck by the lack of sensitivity on the part of an old friend and fellow gay man that I haven't been able to respond to his e-mail.

[serious crayons]

Yes, the little voice is as cold as ice, but it cracks a little on "He was only 39 years old" and on telling Ennis how he should get up to see his folks in Lightning Flat.  Only a woman who truly loved her husband would be that charitable to the man she realizes was the love of his life and the reason she could never have his heart.  I don't think Alma would have done the same if the shoe were on the other foot.  I know that's a stretch and maybe harsh, but I think she was more bitter than Lureen only because she knew about the two of them for a lot longer and had a lot of time to stew over it.

Thanks for agreeing, Barb, and I should probably just appreciate that, but I also have to take issue with "cold as ice." She sounds very rehearsed, and probably isn't thrilled to hear from Ennis, with good reason. But, as you say, her encouraging him to go see Jack's folks is a truly kind thing to do. I think Alma is WAY more bitter than Lureen. But you're right, she also has more to go on.

And Jeff, your post arrived just as I was about to post this. That is a disturbing experience.  What if you wrote back and said, in effect, "HUNH???" and then briefly summarized what you think DOES happen. I don't have any friends who have dismissed the film (mainly because most of my friends have inexplicably not seen it, at least last time I checked). However, I have two or three friends who liked it but only mildly. So I pointed out as many of the amazing things about it as I reasonably could in a short conversation and in each case, I think, their appreciation was deepened. Some people , even intelligent and sensitive people, just aren't attuned to its subtleties and as a result don't get it.

[ednbarby]

I can understand where you're coming from, Jeff.  It's been hard enough for me to discover that straight female friends who I thought were open-minded and compassionate can say basically the same thing and be so insensitive.  I just keep thinking that thank God my husband got it.  I'd trade my next 20 friends not getting it in order for him to.  To find out I'm married to someone so insensitive would have been devastating.  It may sound crazy, but I think it really would have been the beginning of the end.  We watched Memoirs of a Geisha last night, and he warmed my heart, again, at the end when he said, "That was nice and all.  But it was no Brokeback Mountain."  

As for Lureen's lack of acceptance of Bobby's learning disorder, I can relate to that, too.  My son is in that boat - he is very mildly autistic and is also starting to show signs of dyslexia.  I've been able to come to terms with it from the beginning.  But quite a few people in my own family have not.  Luckily, my husband isn't one of them.  But both of my parents keep saying, "There's nothing wrong with that kid that a little discipline won't fix."    And I know a few women with kids who have much more serious problems than Will who seem unwilling or unable to accept that their kid might need some extra help.  That's a fairly common predicament, unfortunately.  Doesn't mean the women are insensitive or selfish so much as that they just don't want to face the thought that they may in some way be responsible because of the way their pregnancies or childbirths went.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Thanks for agreeing, Barb, and I should probably just appreciate that, but I also have to take issue with "cold as ice." She sounds very rehearsed, and probably isn't thrilled to hear from Ennis, with good reason. But, as you say, her encouraging him to go see Jack's folks is a truly kind thing to do. I think Alma is WAY more bitter than Lureen. But you're right, she also has more to go on.

And Jeff, your post arrived just as I was about to post this. That is a disturbing experience.  What if you wrote back and said, in effect, "HUNH???" and then briefly summarized what you think DOES happen. I don't have any friends who have dismissed the film (mainly because most of my friends have inexplicably not seen it, at least last time I checked). However, I have two or three friends who liked it but only mildly. So I pointed out as many of the amazing things about it as I reasonably could in a short conversation and in each case, I think, their appreciation was deepened. Some people , even intelligent and sensitive people, just aren't attuned to its subtleties and as a result don't get it.

Thanks, Katherine, that's a good suggestion. I guess I've just been so disappointed in, baffled by, and even hurt by his response that I haven't had the heart to respond to his e-mail. Not when it's more fun to discuss the film with people who do "get" it, even when our interpretations vary. 

I've somewhat reluctantly had to give up assigning any significance to the "rehearsed" element in Lureen's conversation with Ennis. I've seen it pointed out that she is, after all, Jack's widow and undoubtedly has had to tell that tale many, many times, regardless of whether her story is the truth or a lie. Now here comes Ennis's phone call, presumably a couple of months after the fact, and she has to tell the story all over again.

Barb, I'm sure in the end Will will be very fortunate that you and your husband have been able to come to terms with his problems. I really only mentioned Jack's complaint as a way of pointing out that I think Lureen comes off better in the film than in the story. In the film, in the "blue parka" conversation with Jack, she comes off to me as a busy procrastinator--yeah, yeah, she'll get around to calling the school about getting a tutor for Bobby--not necessarily as refusing to acknowledge that there is a problem, which is how Jack in the story portrays her.

BTW, from everything I've ever read in your posts, your husband is a prince. Keep a good grip on him, girlfriend! 

[ednbarby]

I agree, Jeff.  Lureen does come off better in the movie than in the book on that regard.  And that my husband is a prince.  I keep reminding myself of that everytime he nags the crap outta me (he's a nitpicker extraordinaire, but if that's his biggest shortcoming, I'm doing very well.  )

[henrypie]

Hey Barb,

I'll give you ONE MILLION DOLLARS if you let me watch Brokeback Mountain with your husband.  Just one night.  Then everything goes back to the way it was before.... or does it?


Heh heh.

[Kd5000]

I'm had that discussion, verbally person to person with ppl about Ennis not being gay. IT's the way ppl are trained to view gay characters on film.  Ennis doesn't come out and say it like in so many films/tv shows/Oprah that he's gay.  Ppl are familiar with internalized homophobia or latent homosexual or gay guy who is so non-sterotypical...   It takes time for ppl to change their viewpoint

[serious crayons]

I've somewhat reluctantly had to give up assigning any significance to the "rehearsed" element in Lureen's conversation with Ennis. I've seen it pointed out that she is, after all, Jack's widow and undoubtedly has had to tell that tale many, many times, regardless of whether her story is the truth or a lie. Now here comes Ennis's phone call, presumably a couple of months after the fact, and she has to tell the story all over again.

Jeff, I could agree with this! Yay! It's so refreshing when we agree. (Actually, that's probably more or less what I meant -- not that she's deliberately telling a lie, necessarily, but that one way or another her speech has been delivered many times.)

I can see why your friend's email would be so discouraging. And I guess a lot depends on how important you feel it is to bring him over to our side. But it's really hard for me to believe that anyone (who's not homophobic) can't be blown away by the movie -- from a "literary" perspective, if nothing else -- once they see what it contains. One of my friends liked it OK but complained that it was "too slow," and that there were "no sparks" between Jack and Ennis prior to TS1. Well, to me those were both clear indications that she just wasn't noticing subtleties. She is a journalist, and journalists tend to look for meaning on the surface. But once I pointed out a few of the nuances (well, and mentioned that I'd seen it seven times and haunted the imdb message board), she started to get it.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I can see why your friend's email would be so discouraging. And I guess a lot depends on how important you feel it is to bring him over to our side. But it's really hard for me to believe that anyone (who's not homophobic) can't be blown away by the movie -- from a "literary" perspective, if nothing else -- once they see what it contains.

Katherine,

That pretty well puts the situation in a nutshell. What's so disheartening, and I guess, why, at bottom, I have not responded, is the sense that I have that if my old classmate, a middle-aged, urban, urbane, well-read gay male with two graduate degrees, doesn't "get" Brokeback Mountain, nothing I could possibly say to him is going to make a difference, so why spend my precious and valuable time beating my head against a wall? If he doesn't "get it," it's his loss. I suppose I could simply say something to the effect that I found the film richly complex, deeply nuanced, and heartbreakingly beautiful, and I'm sorry he doesn't see it that way.

Jeff

[serious crayons]

Katherine,

That pretty well puts the situation in a nutshell. What's so disheartening, and I guess, why, at bottom, I have not responded, is the sense that I have that if my old classmate, a middle-aged, urban, urbane, well-read gay male with two graduate degrees, doesn't "get" Brokeback Mountain, nothing I could possibly say to him is going to make a difference, so why spend my precious and valuable time beating my head against a wall? If he doesn't "get it," it's his loss. I suppose I could simply say something to the effect that I found the film richly complex, deeply nuanced, and heartbreakingly beautiful, and I'm sorry he doesn't see it that way.

Jeff

Give him specifics! Talk about the metaphors and subtleties and ambiguities! Tell him it is so complex and well-crafted that after all these months there are still people arguing over the meaning of individual lines!

Maybe it's just my usual optimism, but I can't see how anyone like the guy you describe, once presented with the fact that everything in the movie has some deeper meaning, from shirt colors to water to buckets to paper bags, could fail to appreciate it as a masterpiece at least in a literary sense. I don't analyze other movies to the extent I have this one, but doesn't that alone make Brokeback pretty unusual?

But you're right, it's his loss. And depending on the nature of your friendship, you might not want to take the time.

[ednbarby]

Hey Barb,

I'll give you ONE MILLION DOLLARS if you let me watch Brokeback Mountain with your husband.  Just one night.  Then everything goes back to the way it was before.... or does it?

Heh heh.

Sorry, Mr. Redford.  No sale. 

[starboardlight]

Give him specifics! Talk about the metaphors and subtleties and ambiguities! Tell him it is so complex and well-crafted that after all these months there are still people arguing over the meaning of individual lines!

Maybe it's just my usual optimism, but I can't see how anyone like the guy you describe, once presented with the fact that everything in the movie has some deeper meaning, from shirt colors to water to buckets to paper bags, could fail to appreciate it as a masterpiece at least in a literary sense. I don't analyze other movies to the extent I have this one, but doesn't that alone make Brokeback pretty unusual?

But you're right, it's his loss. And depending on the nature of your friendship, you might not want to take the time.

on one hand, i think talking in details about those nuances might sell someone over to the idea that this film is a masterpiece. but on the other, what was most impressive to me was that emotional devastation that I got from the film, even before I got around to analyzing all the details. that's something that if they didn't get from it, they never will, I suspect. so for me, I just don't bother trying to win them over. if people want to discuss, I'll tell them about all the things that I love, but I don't invest in trying to convince any one.

[serious crayons]

You're absolutely right, starboardlight. It's fairly easy to argue someone into an intellectual appreciation of the movie by pointing out the subtleties. I have been successful at it myself. I am baffled that anyone can not be emotionally overwhelmed by the movie, too, but if they don't get that on their own I doubt they could be persuaded by argument. And ultimately the emotional aspects are the most important.

[Jeff Wrangler]

on one hand, i think talking in details about those nuances might sell someone over to the idea that this film is a masterpiece. but on the other, what was most impressive to me was that emotional devastation that I got from the film, even before I got around to analyzing all the details. that's something that if they didn't get from it, they never will, I suspect. so for me, I just don't bother trying to win them over. if people want to discuss, I'll tell them about all the things that I love, but I don't invest in trying to convince any one.

Essentially, my position is the same as Starboardlight's. And you don't get a toaster for converting anyone to BBM. 

[serious crayons]

No toaster, but you do get the satisfaction of defending a film you love.

[Jeff Wrangler]

No toaster, but you do get the satisfaction of defending a film you love.

Absolutely. It's just that in this case I doubt it would do any good. (I spent 13 months in school with this guy. I know how he can get!  )

[opinionista]

...who gets really upset when other people assume things about this film? I'm asking this on the Tremblay section because I know you folks are quite rational and you are very dedicated to the film.

I have been fixated on this film for a long time now.  However, I get so angry when people assume things that can't possibly be real or realistic in regard to this film.  One recurring theme is when people assume to hear lines which aren't in the film and rationally wouldn't be there.  Secondly, they keep bringing up that Ennis wasn't gay (which some say is debatable, I say isn't).  Thirdly, they bring up numerous scenarios about how Jack died.

I am sick of it.  I'm tired of being angry and debating with people.  I wish I could quit by passion about this film but I can't.

I can't believe it get so irritated about these things.  Am I the only one?   

It used to bother me too, but then I realized this movie is way too realistic and some people just can't deal with some of the topics it conveys. So I came to the conclusion that they come up with those silly excuses to explain why they didn't like the movie because they don't know what else to say. BBM isn't for everyone.

[starboardlight]

what really bothers me are people who can't muster the compassion for the characters. they focus on the "cheating" as reasons to hate the characters and are unwilling to dig deeper into the why of it. I admit, by their actions the men are not saints. but to me they're men, who are in more pain than most men will have to deal with. I don't excuse the bad choices, but I understand. I will even go as far as saying that I'm not much stronger and would have made those same bad decisions were I in their shoes, with as little resources to show me that things could be different. As a matter of fact, were it not for one fluke of a moment of clarity, I might be unhappily married with kids today. I get frustrated that people refuse to see that society does play a part in this tragedy. I get frustrated when people say that the men didn't have to get married, when I know full well that the pressure to get married can be overwhelming. I get angry that people refuse to admit that the things that happened to us as children do play a part in determining the course of our lives.

[RouxB]

I've been sitting here debating-to post or not to post. Because I'm feeling...kinda...censored I guess is a good way to put it. I love this movie. I've seen it many many times. It hit me about as hard as anything in my life has. I value my own opinions-and my judgement. I've read the story, read the reviews, seen and heard the interviews. AND I refuse to be that certain about anything that was not absolutely spelled out. I don't agree (or even disagree) with some of the interpretations that some people are so sure about-and that is based on my own life experience and nothing more.

I have loved two women in my life. One was completely non-sexual (no desire there at all) but I loved her like crazy-and for many years. The other was more of an "in love" thing and definitely with a sexual attraction-which I tried to act on. I identify as a straight  but because of my history I leave some room with that. Do I think I'm in denial about my sexuality-not at all. Does that mean there is no room for me to be wrong-no but...

Maybe those who have those wacky interpretations (and I believe there are some-don't get me wrong) are coming at it from a different angle and is that really such a bad thing? And if you are a sincere Brokie and someone tells you that you are stupid or crazy for your beliefs does that really make you stupid or crazy?

Discussion is good-this is my contribution.

I'm not gonna proof cuz I'll just deleate the whole thing if I have to re-read it  

 

[starboardlight]

I've been sitting here debating-to post or not to post. Because I'm feeling...kinda...censored I guess is a good way to put it. I love this movie. I've seen it many many times. It hit me about as hard as anything in my life has. I value my own opinions-and my judgement. I've read the story, read the reviews, seen and heard the interviews. AND I refuse to be that certain about anything that was not absolutely spelled out. I don't agree (or even disagree) with some of the interpretations that some people are so sure about-and that is based on my own life experience and nothing more.

I have loved two women in my life. One was completely non-sexual (no desire there at all) but I loved her like crazy-and for many years. The other was more of an "in love" thing and definitely with a sexual attraction-which I tried to act on. I identify as a straight  but because of my history I leave some room with that. Do I think I'm in denial about my sexuality-not at all. Does that mean there is no room for me to be wrong-no but...

Maybe those who have those wacky interpretations (and I believe there are some-don't get me wrong) are coming at it from a different angle and is that really such a bad thing? And if you are a sincere Brokie and someone tells you that you are stupid or crazy for your beliefs does that really make you stupid or crazy?

Discussion is good-this is my contribution.

I'm not gonna proof cuz I'll just deleate the whole thing if I have to re-read it  

 

ha! now you can't delete.  i'm glad you did post, because you're right. absolutely. i think we often want people to see it and understand it in the same way. It's clear that even on this board of like minded, we don't all agree on everything. discussion can be good, if constructively done. thank you for reminding me of that.

[serious crayons]

It seems to me that we're talking about a few different kinds of criticism here. There are evil homophobes who hate the movie categorically. There are questionable people (probably also mostly homophobes who realize it's not polite to say so openly) who complain that it glorifies adultery or would be a boring cliched love story if the characters were straight or whatever. There are otherwise nice people who are inexplicably indifferent to it. And there are people who love it but who interpret its ambiguities in different ways than I do.

I feel unmitigated hostility toward the first group, feel mostly contempt for the second group. am frustrated and perplexed by the third, and like and respect the fourth, even though I know that if they don't agree with me, they are wrong.

Kidding about that last one, of course. Actually, I love to debate those ambiguities with people as intelligent and sensitive and observant as you guys are. It gives me something to talk about, a constructive way to think about the movie. It forces me to pick it apart and analyze it at a closer level than I might otherwise, often seeing details I otherwise would overlook. By making me articulate in specific terms what might otherwise be vague impressions, it gives me a better understanding of my own thoughts. And sometimes -- rarely, it's true, but sometimes -- it leads me to change my mind.

[silkncense]

RouxB -  I think that's why I love Annie's quote & philosophy so much.  She wrote the story & is not adamant that people believe or interpret every line in a specific way.  If she'd wanted that, she would have written the story specifically.

All that I require is thoughtful consideration.  That does not mean I will agree with it.
 
As we have seen from the various boards, there are gay and straight, male and female that are on differing sides of many questions, issues and opinions expressed regarding this film.  

I for one find that only part of it's beauty.

[serious crayons]

As we have seen from the various boards, there are gay and straight, male and female that are on differing sides of many questions, issues and opinions expressed regarding this film. 

I for one find that only part of it's beauty.

Right, silk. What I particularly like is that our opinions rarely, if ever, correlate with our genders and/or orientations.

[TJ]

RouxB -  I think that's why I love Annie's quote & philosophy so much.  She wrote the story & is not adamant that people believe or interpret every line in a specific way.  If she'd wanted that, she would have written the story specifically.

As we have seen from the various boards, there are gay and straight, male and female that are on differing sides of many questions, issues and opinions expressed regarding this film. 

I for one find that only part of it's beauty.

Right, silk. What I particularly like is that our opinions rarely, if ever, correlate with our genders and/or orientations.

Well, a lot of my opinions in these discussion forums (and Yahoo Groups) are related to my gender, male, and my sexual orientation, which is exclusively homosexual. My opinions/observations are also based on my own world view of simlar situations which all of the characters of the Short Story and Movie experienced. I have known many people who were/are just like the Brokeback Mountain characters.

I do say that if a person who was male and exclusively homosexual in his sexual orientation had written the story from his own experiences and world view, he might have given the reader the answers to some of the unanswered questions which we are asked or read in Annie Proulx's original short story.

But, while Annie Proulx was a resident of Wyoming when she wrote Brokeback Mountain and has even admitted that she is a heterosexual woman in her own writings and interviews related to the original story, she wrote the story as though she were an observer and did not understand everything which she saw. Her gender and sexual orientation were important to the purpose of her story, too.

George Catlin was a famous artist who travelled the West and visited lots of tribes in the North American Continent. Much of his sketches, small painting and even larger works of art were done like a tourist with a camera. While his works do show exactly what he saw happening, he did not always understand what was going on in the activity of the scene. I had read that in more than one book discussing Catlin and his work.

Tulsa, Oklahoma has Gilcrease Museum. It has lots of Catlin's original works and only displays selections from the Catlin collection due to limited space. One day I was at the museum doing my own tour of the museum and I overheard a tour guide say almost the same things I wrote in the above paragraph.

[serious crayons]

Well, a lot of my opinions in these discussion forums (and Yahoo Groups) are related to my gender, male, and my sexual orientation, which is exclusively homosexual.

To clarify, TJ, I don't mean our opinions aren't INFLUENCED by our demographic characteristics and other aspects of our backgrounds. I mean people's opinions aren't usually PREDICTABLE based on those characteristics.

[two_bloody_shirts]

RouxB -  I think that's why I love Annie's quote & philosophy so much.  She wrote the story & is not adamant that people believe or interpret every line in a specific way.  If she'd wanted that, she would have written the story specifically.

All that I require is thoughtful consideration.  That does not mean I will agree with it.
 
As we have seen from the various boards, there are gay and straight, male and female that are on differing sides of many questions, issues and opinions expressed regarding this film. 

I for one find that only part of it's beauty.

This is absolutely true and I completely agree with it.  I like the idea that we can all come together and discuss themes and enhance ideas and theorize.

The thing that irks me is that if there is a "yes" or "no" issue - meaning there is no gray areas whatsoever - and there are people who are on one side or the other.  Yes, I can see where a discussion would come about regarding whether Ennis was gay or bisexual, or even if we should label him at all.  It's just that if there is actually something in the film or not when I become quite frustrated.   

[TJ]

Quote from: TJ on Today at 11:29:01 am
"Well, a lot of my opinions in these discussion forums (and Yahoo Groups) are related to my gender, male, and my sexual orientation, which is exclusively homosexual."

To clarify, TJ, I don't mean our opinions aren't INFLUENCED by our demographic characteristics and other aspects of our backgrounds. I mean people's opinions aren't usually PREDICTABLE based on those characteristics.

Well, that's a better explanation of the situation. As far as being predictable in real life, I have had friends who thought they knew me well enough to predict that I would do certain things. When two of those friends happened to be with me at the same time and I did or said something that one of them was familiar with, the other one would say, "I did not know that about you, Joe. I'm surprised that you did (or said) that."

Ennis was hetrosexually married; his relationship with Jack added into the mix made him to be bisexual; but, in reality, a person like Ennis could have just been married to a member of the opposite sex, while at the same time, his sexual orientation was exclusively homosexual.

I have known a number of men who had been married to women; but, their sexual orientation was always exclusively homosexual. One of those men was the Rev. Mr. Mel White, who wrote Stranger at the Gate: To Be Gay and Christain in America. When I first met Mel in the 1980s, he was in partnership with a man and I only knew him at church in North Hollywood. It was not until I read his book that I realized that I had met him. The real truth in what one knew here was that in after I had moved back to Tulsa and had gone to a PFLAG Conference banquet and Mel was the after dinner speaker, I found out that he actually knew more about me than I knew about him when I lived in LA. 

[RouxB]