Author Topic: Am I the only person...  (Read 17293 times)

Offline starboardlight

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Re: Am I the only person...
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2006, 01:33:55 am »
what really bothers me are people who can't muster the compassion for the characters. they focus on the "cheating" as reasons to hate the characters and are unwilling to dig deeper into the why of it. I admit, by their actions the men are not saints. but to me they're men, who are in more pain than most men will have to deal with. I don't excuse the bad choices, but I understand. I will even go as far as saying that I'm not much stronger and would have made those same bad decisions were I in their shoes, with as little resources to show me that things could be different. As a matter of fact, were it not for one fluke of a moment of clarity, I might be unhappily married with kids today. I get frustrated that people refuse to see that society does play a part in this tragedy. I get frustrated when people say that the men didn't have to get married, when I know full well that the pressure to get married can be overwhelming. I get angry that people refuse to admit that the things that happened to us as children do play a part in determining the course of our lives.
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

Offline RouxB

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Re: Am I the only person...
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2006, 01:38:10 am »
I've been sitting here debating-to post or not to post. Because I'm feeling...kinda...censored I guess is a good way to put it. I love this movie. I've seen it many many times. It hit me about as hard as anything in my life has. I value my own opinions-and my judgement. I've read the story, read the reviews, seen and heard the interviews. AND I refuse to be that certain about anything that was not absolutely spelled out. I don't agree (or even disagree) with some of the interpretations that some people are so sure about-and that is based on my own life experience and nothing more.

I have loved two women in my life. One was completely non-sexual (no desire there at all) but I loved her like crazy-and for many years. The other was more of an "in love" thing and definitely with a sexual attraction-which I tried to act on. I identify as a straight  but because of my history I leave some room with that. Do I think I'm in denial about my sexuality-not at all. Does that mean there is no room for me to be wrong-no but...

Maybe those who have those wacky interpretations (and I believe there are some-don't get me wrong) are coming at it from a different angle and is that really such a bad thing? And if you are a sincere Brokie and someone tells you that you are stupid or crazy for your beliefs does that really make you stupid or crazy?

Discussion is good-this is my contribution.

I'm not gonna proof cuz I'll just deleate the whole thing if I have to re-read it  :-\

 O0

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Offline starboardlight

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Re: Am I the only person...
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2006, 02:33:39 am »
I've been sitting here debating-to post or not to post. Because I'm feeling...kinda...censored I guess is a good way to put it. I love this movie. I've seen it many many times. It hit me about as hard as anything in my life has. I value my own opinions-and my judgement. I've read the story, read the reviews, seen and heard the interviews. AND I refuse to be that certain about anything that was not absolutely spelled out. I don't agree (or even disagree) with some of the interpretations that some people are so sure about-and that is based on my own life experience and nothing more.

I have loved two women in my life. One was completely non-sexual (no desire there at all) but I loved her like crazy-and for many years. The other was more of an "in love" thing and definitely with a sexual attraction-which I tried to act on. I identify as a straight  but because of my history I leave some room with that. Do I think I'm in denial about my sexuality-not at all. Does that mean there is no room for me to be wrong-no but...

Maybe those who have those wacky interpretations (and I believe there are some-don't get me wrong) are coming at it from a different angle and is that really such a bad thing? And if you are a sincere Brokie and someone tells you that you are stupid or crazy for your beliefs does that really make you stupid or crazy?

Discussion is good-this is my contribution.

I'm not gonna proof cuz I'll just deleate the whole thing if I have to re-read it  :-\

 O0


ha! now you can't delete.  ;D i'm glad you did post, because you're right. absolutely. i think we often want people to see it and understand it in the same way. It's clear that even on this board of like minded, we don't all agree on everything. discussion can be good, if constructively done. thank you for reminding me of that.
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Am I the only person...
« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2006, 09:39:28 am »
It seems to me that we're talking about a few different kinds of criticism here. There are evil homophobes who hate the movie categorically. There are questionable people (probably also mostly homophobes who realize it's not polite to say so openly) who complain that it glorifies adultery or would be a boring cliched love story if the characters were straight or whatever. There are otherwise nice people who are inexplicably indifferent to it. And there are people who love it but who interpret its ambiguities in different ways than I do.

I feel unmitigated hostility toward the first group, feel mostly contempt for the second group. am frustrated and perplexed by the third, and like and respect the fourth, even though I know that if they don't agree with me, they are wrong. ;)

Kidding about that last one, of course. Actually, I love to debate those ambiguities with people as intelligent and sensitive and observant as you guys are. It gives me something to talk about, a constructive way to think about the movie. It forces me to pick it apart and analyze it at a closer level than I might otherwise, often seeing details I otherwise would overlook. By making me articulate in specific terms what might otherwise be vague impressions, it gives me a better understanding of my own thoughts. And sometimes -- rarely, it's true, but sometimes -- it leads me to change my mind.


« Last Edit: May 09, 2006, 09:51:06 am by latjoreme »

Offline silkncense

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Re: Am I the only person...
« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2006, 09:49:55 am »
RouxB -  I think that's why I love Annie's quote & philosophy so much.  She wrote the story & is not adamant that people believe or interpret every line in a specific way.  If she'd wanted that, she would have written the story specifically.

All that I require is thoughtful consideration.  That does not mean I will agree with it.
 
As we have seen from the various boards, there are gay and straight, male and female that are on differing sides of many questions, issues and opinions expressed regarding this film.  

I for one find that only part of it's beauty.
"……when I think of him, I just can't keep from crying…because he was a friend of mine…"

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Am I the only person...
« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2006, 09:54:34 am »
As we have seen from the various boards, there are gay and straight, male and female that are on differing sides of many questions, issues and opinions expressed regarding this film. 

I for one find that only part of it's beauty.

Right, silk. What I particularly like is that our opinions rarely, if ever, correlate with our genders and/or orientations.

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Re: Am I the only person...
« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2006, 12:29:01 pm »
RouxB -  I think that's why I love Annie's quote & philosophy so much.  She wrote the story & is not adamant that people believe or interpret every line in a specific way.  If she'd wanted that, she would have written the story specifically.

As we have seen from the various boards, there are gay and straight, male and female that are on differing sides of many questions, issues and opinions expressed regarding this film. 

I for one find that only part of it's beauty.
Right, silk. What I particularly like is that our opinions rarely, if ever, correlate with our genders and/or orientations.

Well, a lot of my opinions in these discussion forums (and Yahoo Groups) are related to my gender, male, and my sexual orientation, which is exclusively homosexual. My opinions/observations are also based on my own world view of simlar situations which all of the characters of the Short Story and Movie experienced. I have known many people who were/are just like the Brokeback Mountain characters.

I do say that if a person who was male and exclusively homosexual in his sexual orientation had written the story from his own experiences and world view, he might have given the reader the answers to some of the unanswered questions which we are asked or read in Annie Proulx's original short story.

But, while Annie Proulx was a resident of Wyoming when she wrote Brokeback Mountain and has even admitted that she is a heterosexual woman in her own writings and interviews related to the original story, she wrote the story as though she were an observer and did not understand everything which she saw. Her gender and sexual orientation were important to the purpose of her story, too.

George Catlin was a famous artist who travelled the West and visited lots of tribes in the North American Continent. Much of his sketches, small painting and even larger works of art were done like a tourist with a camera. While his works do show exactly what he saw happening, he did not always understand what was going on in the activity of the scene. I had read that in more than one book discussing Catlin and his work.

Tulsa, Oklahoma has Gilcrease Museum. It has lots of Catlin's original works and only displays selections from the Catlin collection due to limited space. One day I was at the museum doing my own tour of the museum and I overheard a tour guide say almost the same things I wrote in the above paragraph.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Am I the only person...
« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2006, 01:44:04 pm »
Well, a lot of my opinions in these discussion forums (and Yahoo Groups) are related to my gender, male, and my sexual orientation, which is exclusively homosexual.

To clarify, TJ, I don't mean our opinions aren't INFLUENCED by our demographic characteristics and other aspects of our backgrounds. I mean people's opinions aren't usually PREDICTABLE based on those characteristics.

Offline two_bloody_shirts

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Re: Am I the only person...
« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2006, 08:32:24 pm »
RouxB -  I think that's why I love Annie's quote & philosophy so much.  She wrote the story & is not adamant that people believe or interpret every line in a specific way.  If she'd wanted that, she would have written the story specifically.

All that I require is thoughtful consideration.  That does not mean I will agree with it.
 
As we have seen from the various boards, there are gay and straight, male and female that are on differing sides of many questions, issues and opinions expressed regarding this film. 

I for one find that only part of it's beauty.

This is absolutely true and I completely agree with it.  I like the idea that we can all come together and discuss themes and enhance ideas and theorize.

The thing that irks me is that if there is a "yes" or "no" issue - meaning there is no gray areas whatsoever - and there are people who are on one side or the other.  Yes, I can see where a discussion would come about regarding whether Ennis was gay or bisexual, or even if we should label him at all.  It's just that if there is actually something in the film or not when I become quite frustrated.   ;)
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Re: Am I the only person...
« Reply #49 on: May 09, 2006, 11:18:41 pm »
Quote
Quote from: TJ on Today at 11:29:01 am
"Well, a lot of my opinions in these discussion forums (and Yahoo Groups) are related to my gender, male, and my sexual orientation, which is exclusively homosexual."


To clarify, TJ, I don't mean our opinions aren't INFLUENCED by our demographic characteristics and other aspects of our backgrounds. I mean people's opinions aren't usually PREDICTABLE based on those characteristics.

Well, that's a better explanation of the situation. As far as being predictable in real life, I have had friends who thought they knew me well enough to predict that I would do certain things. When two of those friends happened to be with me at the same time and I did or said something that one of them was familiar with, the other one would say, "I did not know that about you, Joe. I'm surprised that you did (or said) that."

Ennis was hetrosexually married; his relationship with Jack added into the mix made him to be bisexual; but, in reality, a person like Ennis could have just been married to a member of the opposite sex, while at the same time, his sexual orientation was exclusively homosexual.

I have known a number of men who had been married to women; but, their sexual orientation was always exclusively homosexual. One of those men was the Rev. Mr. Mel White, who wrote Stranger at the Gate: To Be Gay and Christain in America. When I first met Mel in the 1980s, he was in partnership with a man and I only knew him at church in North Hollywood. It was not until I read his book that I realized that I had met him. The real truth in what one knew here was that in after I had moved back to Tulsa and had gone to a PFLAG Conference banquet and Mel was the after dinner speaker, I found out that he actually knew more about me than I knew about him when I lived in LA.