Author Topic: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)  (Read 27099 times)

Offline David

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Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« on: May 08, 2006, 08:01:38 am »
This was mentioned on the old board and I thought we could explore it better over here.

At the last night by the lake, Ennis tells Jack about Cassie and her dreams of nursing school.  But then he ends the statement about seeing her with :"but I don't know".

Was Ennis trying to tell Jack that he was just killing time with Cassie?   Or was there a deeper meaning there?   

Did Jack miss out on the importance of that comment?   After all, he mentions his affair right afterwards.   

Was Ennis coming to grips with his own situation after all these years?

something to think about...
« Last Edit: May 11, 2006, 11:54:44 am by DavidinHartford »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2006, 09:22:09 am »
Good topic, David! And good idea to poach promising topics from the old board.

Ennis' tone really captures his lack of enthusiasm for the relationship. Not just the "but I don't know," but also the "wants to be a nurse or sumpn." Like he has barely paid attention to her talk about her plans. Some have said the news makes Jack jealous, which is why he responds with the lie about the ranch foreman's wife. But it's hard to believe Jack doesn't pick up on how blase Ennis sounds.

And my opinion is that, yes, by this point Ennis has realized that he is gay and has partly come to terms with it. I know many people find this view debatable, to say the least. But he seems so unexcited and passive about Cassie -- far less so than he was about Alma, even. He gets dragged into the relationship because Cassie came on so strong and he figures that's what he's "supposed" to do. But when he breaks up with her, it's because he realizes there's no point in keeping up the pretense.

And while we're on the subject, I've wondered if there's any deeper significance to Cassie's "girls don't fall in love with fun." I saw an essay on the old board about this; it was interesting but I didn't agree with the author's point (he was arguing that in the end Jack decided to break up with Ennis as a favor to Ennis and somehow the question of Ennis being "fun" or not worked into it). But given that this line is given such dramatic emphasis and is actually the first time in the movie the word "love" is used -- not, as is sometimes claimed, in the final scene with Alma Jr. -- you'd think it must mean something.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2006, 09:26:24 am »
I guess I've always found the "Girls don't fall in love with fun" line significant because I think it's the first time Ennis realizes that Jack is in love with him.  Or at least it's the first time he associates that word with what Jack has been trying to tell him all those years.  I think that when Ennis says, "I guess I wasn't much fun, was I?" he's saying it not just in relation to her, but it's how he thinks of himself in general.  He dislikes himself so much that he can't imagine anyone finding it "fun" to be with him.  When she says that, I think he realizes that Jack found being with him fun, so to speak, because he loved him.  Just as Cassie has just admitted she did.
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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2006, 10:07:49 am »
I agree with both of you. What makes the end of the movie so tragic for me is that Ennis was almost there, he had almost traveled all the way around the coffeepot to find the handle, the answer. And he was almost ready to agree to a life with Jack. That's why he broke off with Cassie. But I don't think Jack recognized it, because he was embittered.
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Offline David

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2006, 12:16:44 pm »
Well,  many have said, and I agree, that Jacks spirit died the day he drove up when Ennis got his divorce.  You never see him smile after that.

But at the last lake scene he brings up the topic.  "So after all these years you never found someone to marry?"   Jack was fishing for Ennis's feelings.     Of course, we also know that Jack has been seeing Randall for 5 years now.    Bittered yes, hopeful?  maybe.   

What I think we forget is that these two guys know very little about eachother lives other than the info they share during these fishing trips.    And it's all them things they don't know about eachother that feed the jealousy I think.

And that is the beauty of the story.   These two want each other so much yet can't get it.    And for alot of us, we also seek this pure form of love.    We all face obsticals, some of them our own doing, others tossed in front of us.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2006, 12:26:21 pm »
I agree with both of you. What makes the end of the movie so tragic for me is that Ennis was almost there, he had almost traveled all the way around the coffeepot to find the handle, the answer. And he was almost ready to agree to a life with Jack. That's why he broke off with Cassie. But I don't think Jack recognized it, because he was embittered.

And I agree with this, Front-Ranger. I think he was almost there, too. Whether he would have lived with Jack I don't know. But I think he had finally come to terms with the fact that he was always going to love Jack and shouldn't bother pretending otherwise. To me, that's what the pie scene is about. So sad ...

And David, I think you may be right that Jack was fishing. Too bad Ennis didn't respond more directly. And too bad Jack didn't read Ennis' "who cares" tone. Or Ennis' nonchallant acceptance of Jack's seeing another woman.

Offline littleguitar

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2006, 01:05:25 pm »
Quote
Well,  many have said, and I agree, that Jacks spirit died the day he drove up when Ennis got his divorce.  You never see him smile after that.

He smiles that last night by the lake, after Ennis says "you probably deserved it", though I have to say it is one of the saddest, most heartbreaking smiles I've ever seen, and it's followed by "Tell you what..."  I definitely agree that Jack's spirit died that day.
‘cause the truth is, I already give him everythin’ I got to give, more than I ever even knew I had; ‘n it all for him, all of it, him who is my brother, my father, my child, my friend, my lover, my heart, my soul; my Ennis.

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Offline ednbarby

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2006, 01:35:27 pm »
He smiles that last night by the lake, after Ennis says "you probably deserved it", though I have to say it is one of the saddest, most heartbreaking smiles I've ever seen, and it's followed by "Tell you what..."  I definitely agree that Jack's spirit died that day.

As do I.  And that's yet another beautiful piece of acting by our Jake.  Well, all of it.  But the day of the post-divorce trip, when Ennis starts pushing him away, and they look at that truck passing by together, and he *gets* right then and there that Ennis is never gonna be OK with the two of them being open about their relationship, the way he says, "Yeah.  All right." and backs up that little bit and does that thing with his tongue - as if he's doing that in concentration - the concentration it takes to keep from breaking down in front of him - that just slays me every time.

As I've said before here, I've been there to a lesser extent.  The one I was over the moon in love with had missed work all week due to a bad case of tonsilitis after we'd been what I believed was quite serious for several months, and I took that Friday off to make and bring him homemade chicken soup.  I asked his housemate at the time if he thought it was a good idea, and he even said, "Sure.  If that was me, I'd love it!  He's pretty bummed about feeling so crappy, so I'm sure a visit from you would cheer him up."  I took the soup over there early in the afternoon, just expecting to leave it by the front door in a cooler I had brought for it so as not to bother him, but he opened the door right away as if he was up watching TV and had heard me pull up.  And he was *annoyed*.  It was clear he was, from the moment I saw his face at the door.  I got my heart broken that day, because I was sure it'd be sort of a turning point (towards the good) for us, especially after getting that vote of confidence from his housemate.  I just remember that lump in my throat like it was yesterday.  And I drove back home in tears, too.  I didn't see or speak to him until the following Monday, when he'd returned to work and never bothered to let me know he was going to (we also worked closely together), nor to thank me for the soup which his housemate said was yummy.  Grrrrrr...  Things were never the same after that and by all accounts I should have just ended it.  But we continued on at *his* pace for several more months.  I don't remember smiling much during that time, either.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2006, 01:38:07 pm by ednbarby »
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Offline David

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2006, 03:59:51 pm »
A great big Hug for Barby!       Us Pisces (March)  are suckers sometimes aren't we?

David    :-*

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2006, 09:43:12 pm »
But it's hard to believe Jack doesn't pick up on how blase Ennis sounds.

And my opinion is that, yes, by this point Ennis has realized that he is gay and has partly come to terms with it. I know many people find this view debatable, to say the least. But he seems so unexcited and passive about Cassie -- far less so than he was about Alma, even. He gets dragged into the relationship because Cassie came on so strong and he figures that's what he's "supposed" to do. But when he breaks up with her, it's because he realizes there's no point in keeping up the pretense.

I think Jack does pick up on the blase tone about Cassie.  I think he responds with his equally blase tone about his marriage to Lureen that could be done "over the phone" (slightly Off T: a little bit of ominous foreshadowing perhaps?).

Yes, I think the pie scene is a big moment for Ennis.  I don't think he was ever interested in Cassie (even Alma Jr. gets this) and now, you're right he's decided to be honest about this and not pretend... I mean Ennis tried to keep her at arms length during their first dance, and he had to be dragged onto the dance floor then (and also when he danced with Cassie in front of Alma Jr.). 

I wonder what Ennis is thinking when Cassie says "I don't get you..."?  He looks at her in a thoughtful way.  If he would allow himself to at that moment, would he even be capable of answering that question with "well, I'm already in love with a man"... or "I'm gay"?  Has he come that far by the time of this conversation?   I think most of the film while Jack is alive is like watching Ennis inch slowly towards the conscious conclusion that he's gay and should do something to "fix" his relationship with Jack.  I think there's not doubt he's gay all along (but coming out to himself in a clear way in his head obviously is a long process for him).  I wonder... in terms of the chronology of things... Are we supposed to think that Jack is already dead (un-beknownst to Ennis) by the time the pie scene comes?

Jack's death is like a sledge-hammer epiphany about a lot of this to Ennis.  The fact that he actually takes it upon himself to do something awkward and bold for Jack following his death is an enormous sign I think.  I mean not only does he pick up a phone and talk to Lureen, but he actually gets in his truck and drives all that way to visit Jack's parents (clearly an awkward situation for him in some ways).  Throughout their 20 year love affair Jack couldn't drag Ennis up there.  And, yet Ennis does this on his own (he's clearly anxious and wanting to do this) following the death.  Those actions show how much Ennis feels responsible for Jack and how much he really does think of himself as Jack's partner.
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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2006, 11:49:37 pm »
Here's what Annie Proulx wrote in narrative form about the gal who was named "Cassie" in the movie's story line.

Quote
Ennis said he'd been putting the blocks to a woman who worked part-time at the Wolf Ears bar in Signal where he was working now for Stoutamire's cow and calf outfit, but it wasn't going anywhere and she had some problems he didn't want.

In the movie, the woman lives in Riverton.

Because of what Ennis said, Jack had to top it.

Quote
Jack said he'd had a thing going with the wife of a rancher down the road in Childress and for the last few months he'd slank around expecting to get shot by Lureen or the husband, one. Ennis laughed a little and said he probably deserved it.

To me, I think Ennis just made up the story about the woman as if to say, "Jack, I'm still not no queer." And, Jack's response was the same as "Ennis, me neither, I haven't changed at all."

In the part of the book where they make those statements, the narrative mentions the campfire with "the sparks flying up with their truths and lies."

I have met closeted homosexual guys like Ennis and Jack who were in denial of their sexual orientation and they made up lies about being in relationships with women they knew who were just friends or they lied about going with women who never existed in the first place.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2006, 12:11:09 am »
I wonder what Ennis is thinking when Cassie says "I don't get you..."?  He looks at her in a thoughtful way.  If he would allow himself to at that moment, would he even be capable of answering that question with "well, I'm already in love with a man"... or "I'm gay"?  Has he come that far by the time of this conversation?   I think most of the film while Jack is alive is like watching Ennis inch slowly towards the conscious conclusion that he's gay and should do something to "fix" his relationship with Jack.  I think there's not doubt he's gay all along (but coming out to himself in a clear way in his head obviously is a long process for him).  I wonder... in terms of the chronology of things... Are we supposed to think that Jack is already dead (un-beknownst to Ennis) by the time the pie scene comes?

Jack's death is like a sledge-hammer epiphany about a lot of this to Ennis.  The fact that he actually takes it upon himself to do something awkward and bold for Jack following his death is an enormous sign I think.  I mean not only does he pick up a phone and talk to Lureen, but he actually gets in his truck and drives all that way to visit Jack's parents (clearly an awkward situation for him in some ways).  Throughout their 20 year love affair Jack couldn't drag Ennis up there.  And, yet Ennis does this on his own (he's clearly anxious and wanting to do this) following the death.  Those actions show how much Ennis feels responsible for Jack and how much he really does think of himself as Jack's partner.

Lots of excellent observations and questions, Amanda.

IMO, if Ennis suddenly turned candid over pie -- if the pie were spiked with truth serum! -- he COULD have told Cassie that he was in love with a man. It seems to me he has known this since the summer on Brokeback. (And it's the reason he's so depressed over the pie; he knows he will always be in love with Jack but doesn't know what to do about it.) But gay? I believe he is starting to face up to it by then, or at least has acknowledged it at some deeper level. But he might not quite be there at a conscious level until after Jack's death.

And you're right, making the trip to see Jack's parents is not only uncharacteristically bold and outgoing for Ennis -- it's a risk he never would have taken before -- it's also significantly an action a partner would take. His "I can't tell you how bad I feel" has always struck me as soooo poignant -- he literally CAN'T tell them. But by the time he leaves with the shirts, I think he knows that Mrs. Twist understands.

Also, there's something about Ennis' manner at the kitchen table that I can't quite articulate that tells me he has acknowledged that he and Jack were a couple. Maybe it's his remaining so steadfastly calm and polite despite Mr. Twist's rudeness? Anyway, his acknowledgement of their couple status is momentarily shaken by Mr. Twist's revelation about the new guy. But the shirts, devastating as they are, are also a precious reassurance for Ennis. In that respect, they are much more valuable than the ashes would have been. Imagine if Ennis had been given the ashes, but had to leave with the knowledge of Randall hanging over him!



Offline Penthesilea

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2006, 07:07:16 am »
I agree with what Amanda and Katherine said. I would go even further and say that Ennis began to come to terms with his relationship with Jack after the lake scen. Latest. There must have been a seed of cognition in Ennis before the lake scene: Ennis was the one who said that he couldn't stand this anymore. And the seed was raised by the confrontaion. Ennis was scared and shaken to the core by it.

Quote
What makes the end of the movie so tragic for me is that Ennis was almost there, he had almost traveled all the way around the coffeepot to find the handle, the answer. And he was almost ready to agree to a life with Jack. That's why he broke off with Cassie
Yes, you're so right. And for me, the lake scene was a big catalyst for Ennis to come forward.


Quote
Also, there's something about Ennis' manner at the kitchen table that I can't quite articulate that tells me he has acknowledged that he and Jack were a couple.
I think at this point Ennis had finally made the whole way (round the coffeepot). He knew it. And all his guards were down at this moment. I guess if Mr. Twist had directly accused him of being his son's lover or something along this tenor, Ennis would not even have denied it. Not at this very moment.




Offline David

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2006, 07:47:07 am »
The Lake scene...  Such a turning point for both guys.

I honestly believe that both guys were unsatisfied with the situation at this point.   While they still seem to cherish the time together, they alway seem to be sitting quietly deep in thought.  Even when you see them riding horses on the last two times together they are not laughing and carrying on.

I think Jack had an attitude all that week.   He had a thing going with Randall for 5 years now.   Ennis wouldn't commit and Jack couldn't quit Ennis.   He was frustrated.   Thats why he kept baiting Ennis with questions.  He was looking for some hope.

Meanwhile, Ennis was also frustrated.  He was no longer free to drop everything at work and be with Jack as much as HE wanted either.     Ennis looks very HURT to me when Jack mentions the ranchers wife.   

So when the manure hits the fan at departure time, this is when Jack gets his excuse to blow up and try to find a reason to quit Ennis finally.   Also,  This is the BIG breakthru that Ennis needed to see that he "Can't stand it anymore".

Wow.  That is powerful stuff .

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2006, 10:14:20 am »
Your post, David, made me think: do you suppose Jack's boasting about the fling with the wife hurt Ennis because he was worried that Jack wasn't all-consumed by "This thing" they had together, like Ennis was? That he was afraid of abandonment by Jack if Jack could take or leave his gayness? I think you're on to something here.
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Offline silkncense

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2006, 10:28:00 am »
David - I agree that Jack lost a lot of hope after the 'divorce' scene and we don't ever see either of them smiling & relaxed again w/ each other, but Jack continued to try and move Ennis forward throughout the film:

"You going to do this again next summer?"

"What are we goina do now?" (Motel scene)

"It could be like this, just like this always"

"You & Alma, that's a life?"

"Got your message about the divorce...I thought it meant ..."

"Maybe you should move somewhere else, Texas maybe..."

"Live your f...ing miserable life, I was just thinking out loud!"

"You ain't found someone else..."

"Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."

"I did once."  (Resignation, but what if Ennis had responded differently)

And, even when Ennis cried, "Get the f... off me!"  Jack held on tight & again said, "It's alright, s'alright"

I agree that Ennis was almost there after the lake scene.  I also think the November meeting would  have been 'IT' - one way or another. 
« Last Edit: May 09, 2006, 10:53:42 am by silkncense »
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Offline David

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2006, 11:55:42 am »
When Ennis finishes his comment "but I don't know" about Cassie, he is trying to tell Jack that he is not serious about her.

So when Jack admits to having an ongoing affair, that hurts Ennis.   He laughs, but then look at his face after.  It changes and looks like he is trying to hide his hurt feelings.     At least Jacks next statement was more from the heart.  But I think Ennis was already dreading telling Jack the bad news, when instead he should have said something positive about his feelings towards Jack.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2006, 08:28:50 pm »
David - I agree that Jack lost a lot of hope after the 'divorce' scene and we don't ever see either of them smiling & relaxed again w/ each other, but Jack continued to try and move Ennis forward throughout the film:

"You going to do this again next summer?"

"What are we goina do now?" (Motel scene)

"It could be like this, just like this always"

"You & Alma, that's a life?"

"Got your message about the divorce...I thought it meant ..."

"Maybe you should move somewhere else, Texas maybe..."

"Live your f...ing miserable life, I was just thinking out loud!"

"You ain't found someone else..."

"Sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."

"I did once."  (Resignation, but what if Ennis had responded differently)

And, even when Ennis cried, "Get the f... off me!"  Jack held on tight & again said, "It's alright, s'alright"

I agree that Ennis was almost there after the lake scene.  I also think the November meeting would  have been 'IT' - one way or another. 

This is all really interesting.  I also agree that if they had met up in November, big decisions would have been made.
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Offline David

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2006, 08:35:04 pm »
This is all really interesting.  I also agree that if they had met up in November, big decisions would have been made.

That is the $64,000 question.   IF they met up in November.

I sure know that Ennis was anxious to see Jack and perhaps make some consessions.    But I keep watching the DVD and that shot of Jack watching Ennis drive away.   Plus the comment his dad made about Jack and Randall in the spring.    I almost.....repeat almost wonder if the lakeside fight was the last straw in Jacks mind?

Offline serious crayons

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2006, 09:00:21 pm »
That is the $64,000 question.   IF they met up in November.

I sure know that Ennis was anxious to see Jack and perhaps make some consessions.    But I keep watching the DVD and that shot of Jack watching Ennis drive away.   Plus the comment his dad made about Jack and Randall in the spring.    I almost.....repeat almost wonder if the lakeside fight was the last straw in Jacks mind?

A poster on TOB called clancypants, who often has really interesting posts, wrote a long essay arguing that Jack DID break up with Ennis -- as a favor to Ennis! To let him off the hook and ease his torment, after he realized in the last argument that Enni was never going to change. Clancypants marshalled all kinds of evidence and made a strong case. But it was just WAY too depressing, and I didn't agree with all the reasoning, so I opted to reject it.

Offline David

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2006, 09:16:15 pm »
Oh I know what you mean.    I was sooo devastated when Jacks Dad mentioned Randall to Ennis!    Up until then, I had hoped that Jack would keep coming up and working on Ennis until he at least had no more child support to worry about.

And I was shocked that Jack had hooked up with Randall.   At the Dance hall scene, Jack avoids Randalls eye contact at the table.   Then outside on the bench  I was inwardly screaming "NO!  don't do it Jack!  Be faithful to Ennis!"

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #21 on: May 09, 2006, 09:28:10 pm »
A poster on TOB called clancypants, who often has really interesting posts, wrote a long essay arguing that Jack DID break up with Ennis -- as a favor to Ennis! To let him off the hook and ease his torment, after he realized in the last argument that Enni was never going to change. Clancypants marshalled all kinds of evidence and made a strong case. But it was just WAY too depressing, and I didn't agree with all the reasoning, so I opted to reject it.

LOL, I agree.  No surprise there.  It is way too depressing to think that Jack really did break up with Ennis.  I take comfort in the "I wish I knew how to quit you" line.  I don't think he could.  Even when Ennis pushes Jack away... Jack moves forward to hug him in that last long embrace.  Sort of a metaphor that "he couldn't/ wouldn't let go" no matter what.  See,  this is me clinging to an optimistic view of the relationship.  I can see how strong arguments can be made for the idea that he let Ennis go "as a favor" but I prefer to see it differently.  I also think that even if Jack had mentally broken up with Ennis after the argument, he would have gone running back to Ennis if he had lived to receive that last postcard.  I really don't question that.  I think Ennis still would have had an irresistable pull for Jack.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2006, 10:27:34 pm »
Agreed, Amanda. Neither of them could quit. Jack says "wish I could" (rather than "I'm gonna") and then rushes to comfort Ennis. Ennis yells "get the fuck off me" and then reaches out and clutches Jack. In some ways they both probably wish they could quit, for different reasons. But they couldn't and wouldn't, at least not permanently.

Speaking of clancypants, this is OT, but did anyone go read the post s/he wrote on TOB about the symbolism of guns in Brokeback, which someone (as usual, I'm failing to give proper credit) posted a link to last week? Anyway, he presented all these instances in which a gun symbolizes some change in their relationship. It was fascinating -- they all fit perfectly; it was like reading the thread about the buckets. But I noticed clancypants didn't say anything about the lake argument scene. Which got me thinking, wonder if they load a gun into the truck in the lake scene, and it's in some kind of holster or case (which would fit his hypothesis, showing the relationship ending or being packed up)? So later, I watched the lake scene (on YouTube). And SURE ENOUGH, there was the gun -- enclosed in a case.

I was all set to get clancypants over here, until I read that really depressing essay and thought, I don't know if I can take many more of his/her intelligent but devastating theories.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2006, 11:58:44 pm »
Oh wow... yet another symbol to dig into! I've never thought much about the guns, though I've always thought they probably mean a lot.  It's too late to really ponder in-depth tonight.  I'll go seek out the thread on the old board.  I haven't ventured back that way for a long time...  Thanks for the tip.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2006, 12:28:04 am »
I'll see if I can find it and post it here. It really was fascinating.

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2006, 01:37:19 am »
In the "lake scene of 1983(?),  what happens after Ennis get upset about what Jack said is actually much different than in the original short story.

The same "scene," so to speak, in Annie Proulx's story is in a trailhead parking lot and Jack is already in his own truck, with all of the conversation done through the open window of the cab door. When Ennis reacts to what Jack said which ends with "I wish I knew how to quit you," and Jack does not know whether Ennis is having a heart attack or a fit of incendiary rage, Ennis and Jack do not even touch. By the time that Jack gets out of the truck, Ennis acts like nothing happened and immediately snaps back to normal.

"Trailhead parking lots" on Forestry Service Lands are public places. Ennis was always afraid that someone might see him with Jack in public.

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2006, 02:33:25 am »
Quote
A poster on TOB called clancypants, who often has really interesting posts, wrote a long essay arguing that Jack DID break up with Ennis -- as a favor to Ennis! To let him off the hook and ease his torment, after he realized in the last argument that Enni was never going to change. Clancypants marshalled all kinds of evidence and made a strong case. But it was just WAY too depressing, and I didn't agree with all the reasoning, so I opted to reject it

Quote
I also think that even if Jack had mentally broken up with Ennis after the argument, he would have gone running back to Ennis if he had lived to receive that last postcard.

I agree with the above quoted. And there is another point, which a poster named Rontrigger stated over on the IMDB board: even if Jack had descided to move on - whether to his own best or as a favour to Ennis - he would never have let Ennis in doubt about it. From the fact that Ennis wrote the November postcard and what he wrote on it, we can assume that Ennis thought everything was alright/normal.
If Jack had decided to break up whith Ennis, he would have done it directly. He never would have ignored the postcard without any reaction and left Ennis out in the rain whithout knowing what happened. How cruel would that have been? No, Jack would not have done this.
And I think he would not have done it over the phone or in a letter (also a Rontrigger thought which I agree with). He would have quit Ennis face to face - if that was his intention (what I doubt). So at least he had shown up in November to make everything clear.

Maybe Jack would have given Ennis an ultimatum, maybe Ennis would have come to terms by November, we know that something had changed in him. As someone (Front-Ranger ?) said it so beautifully: he had almost done his travelling round the coffepot and almost found the handle. He was almost there.
This it what makes the story all the more tragic. I think the November meeting would have been so important for them. And as an optimist, I'm sure it would have changed for the better. If only...    :'(


Offline David

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2006, 07:04:23 am »
I guess that is part of the mystery too.   We don't know what Jack did after he left his folks place in Lightning Flat in the Spring.    We know he was upset enough about his lack of future with Ennis that he spilled the beans (no pun intended) to his folks about Randall.     

But when Jack got home, what did he do?    Did he start the process? Did he tell Randall?  Did he tell Lureen?     Assuming that Jack was murdered, did the locals find out that Jack was leaving his wife for Randall?   

Or did Jack decide to do nothing?    Did he just get drunk and careless enough to make a pass at one of the mechanics that beat him to death?

With that look on Jacks face, I can almost imagine him now bringing Randall up to Lightning Flat to ranch up, then going back to see Ennis in November to give him a "Tell you what....  I wont be back in the Spring " speech.

That could have had another interesting twist (no pun intended) if Ennis announced that he decided to commit to Jack finally.    Now imagine that new developement to Jack!    Now what?   He ranches up with Randall and now Ennis wants to get serious?

Now what do you think Jack would do?    Dump Randall?  or tell Ennis it was to late?

Offline serious crayons

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2006, 08:19:45 am »
If Jack had decided to break up whith Ennis, he would have done it directly. He never would have ignored the postcard without any reaction and left Ennis out in the rain whithout knowing what happened. How cruel would that have been? No, Jack would not have done this.
And I think he would not have done it over the phone or in a letter (also a Rontrigger thought which I agree with). He would have quit Ennis face to face - if that was his intention (what I doubt). So at least he had shown up in November to make everything clear.

Good point, Pent (and Ront)!! I hadn't thought about that, but you're right, and it's very reassuring. He wouldn't have called Ennis (no phone), but he definitely wouldn't have just disappeared without a letter. Though I suppose it's possible he might have responded to Ennis' last postcard (which at least appeared to be business as usual, meet in November) with a "Tell you what, Friend, ...."

But David, in answer to your question, I think that if Jack knew Ennis had found the coffee pot handle, he would have dumped Randall. In a heartbeat. Just as he kept seeing Ennis the whole time he was seeing Randall. He loved Ennis.


Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2006, 10:55:50 am »
Oh totally... Jack would have run back to Ennis so fast that Randall wouldn't know what hit him. 

I think, as has been discussed in the past, Jack's sad line... "sometime I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" is meant to show that Randall is not satisfying to Jack as an Ennis-substitute.  Jack is stuck... he can't leave Ennis because what would he have left really?  He'd have a life with people (Randall and/or Lureen) who couldn't measure up to Ennis (at least from Jack's point of view). 
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Offline David

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2006, 11:01:56 am »
Either way, November would have made for some fireworks!   

If Ennis told Jack he was ready and Jack had to go up to Lightning Flat and toss out Randall, imagine that fight!

Or worse,  if Ennis had not changed and Jack told him that he was ranching up with Randall...  Look out!   We know Ennis has a temper. 

But Ideally I would like to think that Jack didn't carry out his plan to bring up Randall.  He was going to come back to se Ennis in November just as planned.     Well, had he not met his unfortunate fate.    :'(

Offline serious crayons

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2006, 11:42:58 am »
Oh wow... yet another symbol to dig into! I've never thought much about the guns, though I've always thought they probably mean a lot.  It's too late to really ponder in-depth tonight.  I'll go seek out the thread on the old board.  I haven't ventured back that way for a long time...  Thanks for the tip.

OK, I posted the gun analysis on a new thread. And I noticed, in rereading it, I was wrong -- clancypants DOES mention the holstered gun in the lake scene. So s/he gets the credit for that observation, not me. Anyway, the whole thing is good.

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2006, 11:50:00 am »
Guilty as charged on the coffeepot handle/clancypants-gun thing. Thanks for posting that IMDB thread, lat. Clancypants is quite a thinker. On the end of the lake scene, Annie Proulx spells it out more clearly than Ang was willing to do (as usual). She said that nothing new was said, nothing changed, nothing resolved. But Jack did make it clear that he couldn't get by on a couple of high-altitude f***s a year, so he was going to have to broaden his friendships. And because Randall was not hacking it as a substitute, he probably did what you said, David (I cannot bring myself to quote it, sob). What Jack told his parents was just talk, likely. He would have said about anything to please his old man. Though I love Jack more than myself even, he was, technically, a liar and a thief.
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Offline newyearsday

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2006, 12:43:35 pm »
Bumping so I can read and reply to this excellent-looking thread when I get home from workie work!
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #34 on: May 10, 2006, 01:07:50 pm »
Guilty as charged on the coffeepot handle/clancypants-gun thing. Thanks for posting that IMDB thread, lat.

I was going to post your comment, too, F-R, but then I thought I should let you do it. Since you didn't, let me note that Front-Ranger pointed out the "gun's goin off" line in the story. Good one!

Jack's sad line... "sometime I miss you so much I can hardly stand it" is meant to show that Randall is not satisfying to Jack as an Ennis-substitute.

Right. If he went off with Randall, he would still miss Ennis so much he could hardly stand it.

Offline ednbarby

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #35 on: May 10, 2006, 03:48:54 pm »
We know Jack didn't end up ranching with Randall in Lightning Flat because John Twist said about his bringing "another fella" up there "But like most o' Jack's ideas, it never come to pass."

So Jack was thinking about it and mentioned it to his parents in the Spring, but it hadn't happened yet.

Like so many things in the movie, the exact catalyst for Jack's murder (as some would say, if that's what even happened) is ambiguous.  But judging from what John Twist said, I lean towards the explanation that he came on to one of those mechanics - maybe by then he and Randall had broken it off and it had been so long for him that he couldn't stand waiting any longer? - just like he came on to Jimbo, and that horrible excuse for a human and his rat bastard buddies beat him to death because of it.

In the story, I think the statement "So now Ennis knew it had been the tire iron" was not a reflection of it being specifically about Randall, but just the realization that Jack needed that contact with other men enough so as to not be able to wait for him and to be potentially careless in the meantime.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2006, 03:52:12 pm by ednbarby »
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Offline David

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #36 on: May 10, 2006, 04:44:53 pm »
We could speculate forever.    But why did the screenplay specify Killer Mechanics?

Mechanics imply that they could have work at Newsome Farm Equipment.    Gee,  Jack was going to divorce Lureen.    Could Lureen gone crying to daddy?      Old L.D. Newsome had already made the "you want your son to grow up a man?" comment which implies that Jack wasn't a man to him.    Could L.D.'s mechanics been the ones who killed Jack?    I know, it's a stretch.

Yup, we'll never know if Jack changed his mind or not.   Anne Proulx left it too vague for us.

Gee, I guess we got a bit off topic eh?    LOL

Offline silkncense

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #37 on: May 10, 2006, 05:33:04 pm »
Staying off topic but --- I read clancypant's discussion & still believe absolutely that it was not over after the lake scene. 

1.) Jack absolutely would tell Ennis to his face.  As noted, Ennis had no inclination that they would not be together in November so when they parted, 'nothing changed.'

2.) Jack's momentary resolve to end it was broken when Ennis collapsed.  I see his refusing to walk away (when it would've been the PERFECT opportunity) as Ennis shoves him & yells, "Get the f... off me!" and instead holding him & saying "Damn you" - like 'I was almost there...'

3.) Also, I see his "It's alright, 's alright" told gently to Ennis as reasurring - just as it was during the 2nd tent scene.

4.) Jack's father would not have said "but it never come to pass..." if he thought Jack & the Rancher had not come to Lightning Flat because his son was dead.  He may be an ass - but not that big an ass.

5.) Jack's mother KNEW - and she KNEW that Ennis was the only one.  She did not want him to believe there might have been a 'someone' else. 

"……when I think of him, I just can't keep from crying…because he was a friend of mine…"

Offline David

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #38 on: May 10, 2006, 05:37:04 pm »
5.) Jack's mother KNEW - and she KNEW that Ennis was the only one.  She did not want him to believe there might have been a 'someone' else. 

Oh I'm sure his mom knew that Ennis was Jacks true love.    I'm sure Jack confided in her.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2006, 05:45:52 pm »
Oh I'm sure his mom knew that Ennis was Jacks true love.    I'm sure Jack confided in her.

Or even if he didn't, there were those shirts ...

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2006, 09:15:42 pm »
You are so right, silk
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Offline silkncense

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2006, 09:28:00 pm »
David & Latjjoreme

More than that - the way she treated Ennis; the look of understanding AND joy (?) that he couldn't 'eat no cake right now,' the gentle hand on his shoulder @ that potentially devastating moment, the way she kept her sons room, her nudge of Ennis towards the room - she knew he didn't have a place to be with Jack's ashes, but he had his moment alone there in that room, the slight smile & nod of acknowledgement when he came down w/ the shirts, when she asked Ennis - the last link to her son - to come back and see them again.

Because of all that, I know that she, when Jack mentioned 'the Rancher' knew that that man meant little to nothing to her son.  I absolutely believe that she just knew.
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Offline David

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2006, 11:05:46 pm »
I'd like to think that when old man Twist kicks the bucket, that Ma Twist sends Ennis a post card (General Delivery of course) to Ennis.     She's make him an offer.   If he were to move up to Lightning Flat and run the ranch for her that she'd leave him the place in her will.    Ennis is after all, her only connection to Jack.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #43 on: May 11, 2006, 01:19:39 am »
More than that - the way she treated Ennis; the look of understanding AND joy (?) that he couldn't 'eat no cake right now,' the gentle hand on his shoulder @ that potentially devastating moment, the way she kept her sons room, her nudge of Ennis towards the room - she knew he didn't have a place to be with Jack's ashes, but he had his moment alone there in that room, the slight smile & nod of acknowledgement when he came down w/ the shirts, when she asked Ennis - the last link to her son - to come back and see them again.

Because of all that, I know that she, when Jack mentioned 'the Rancher' knew that that man meant little to nothing to her son.  I absolutely believe that she just knew.

I completely agree with all of this.  She really is almost pushing Ennis when she's inviting/telling Ennis to go up to Jack's room.  She leaves her hand on Ennis's shoulder and seems to be leaning on him ever so slightly.

So, I have a big question about the Lightning Flat scene (sorry that this is a bit off topic from the Cassie theme of the thread).  When Ennis comes downstairls holding the shirts bundled up... We all know that he walks by Old Man Twist... and just tonight I noticed that there's a black and white picture on the wall next to Ennis as he walks towards Jack's Mom.  Can anyone enhance this detail?  I can't quite tell what it's a picture of... or whether it's even a photo of Jack.  It would make sense that his folks (especially his Mom) would have a photo of him.  I would find this interesting if it is a picture of Jack since many people have noted how sad it is that Ennis doesn't have a photo of him to grieve over or keep for his little shrine in the closet.  I hope I'm not completely imagining this detail.  But, I really think it's something I hadn't noticed before.

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #44 on: May 11, 2006, 02:31:04 am »


In the photo above, that seems to be an old B&W picture of a woman.

Offline silkncense

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #45 on: May 11, 2006, 11:15:17 am »
Amanda -

I would think that there would be some photos of Jack somewhere in the house.  Too bad Ennis didn't ask for one...maybe his dreams (day & night) were enough.

David - Well that house would certainly be better than that trailer we last see him in.

I feel as I suspect you do, although invited (almost pleadingly), I don't think Ennis went back to that house - not unless he knew John Twist was no longer there.

(We  should have started a new thread about this scene as it has moved quite away from Cassie!)
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Offline j.U.d.E.

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Re: What Ennis says about Cassie. (from TOB)
« Reply #46 on: May 11, 2006, 11:35:27 am »
Quote
He dislikes himself so much that he can't imagine anyone finding it "fun" to be with him.  When she says that, I think he realizes that Jack found being with him fun, so to speak, because he loved him.
I totally agree with this! But I have a question (and I forget how it is in the short story), but has Ennis actually 'consumed' his affair with Cassie? I mean, when you see the film, it's not even clear, whether they have ever slept together. Or is it?

I keep thinking about the fact, that Ennis lost his virginity to Jack, then married Alma, had two chidren, continued his relationship with Jack, divorced Alma, kept seeing Jack until Jack's death. No relationship after that (of course we don't know, but that's how the film ends). To me it looks like in his whole life, Ennis has only ever been together with Alma and Jack. I just can't see him in a sexual relationship with Cassie at all (but that's maybe wishful thinking, because I don't like the Cassie character at all..  :-\).

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Offline David

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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2006, 11:58:11 am »
Hi Jude,

   Consumated you mean?     Yeah, he did.    Remember he told Jack he was "Putting the Blocks" to her.

   Now I'm taking a guess, but isn't that a cattle reference?.   Don't they put a cow in blocks so the bull can come up behind and impregnate her?

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2006, 12:07:18 pm »
Hi Jude,

   Consumated you mean?     Yeah, he did.    Remember he told Jack he was "Putting the Blocks" to her.

   Now I'm taking a guess, but isn't that a cattle reference?.   Don't they put a cow in blocks so the bull can come up behind and impregnate her?

It might be a horse breeding reference if not cattle, or maybe they use "blocks" for both.

And that icky wine that he uses to toast Junior's coming marriage is a relic of Cassie.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #49 on: May 11, 2006, 12:15:41 pm »
And it must be really icky by then, if it's been sitting open in his fridge since the last time she was over. People who see the movie without reading the story must be surprised -- Ennis doesn't seem the white wine type.

I assume he did consumate it with Cassie. They dated long enough that I think she would have wondered if he didn't. But I guess I don't mind that; I like Cassie!


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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #50 on: May 11, 2006, 08:21:57 pm »
Hi Jude,

   Consumated you mean?     Yeah, he did.    Remember he told Jack he was "Putting the Blocks" to her.

   Now I'm taking a guess, but isn't that a cattle reference?.   Don't they put a cow in blocks so the bull can come up behind and impregnate her?

"Putting the blocks to" is related to inspecting the chassis of a vehicle. It is not a cattle reference.

I have never seen anyone put a cow on blocks to be serviced by a bull. I have known about blocks being put behind a large mare when they wanted her to be serviced by a prize stallion which was much shorter.

I believe the used the name "Cassie" as a word play on "chassis" which is pronounced 'chassie." From the way that I read the Annie Proulx (AP) short story, I seriously doubt that Ennis got much farther than the "block's part. The relationship never went anywhere and the woman had some problems he didn't want.

In my own opinion of the way that I read the story and the fact that AP wrote in the narrative that they told both truth and lies during their last outing together, the bar girl probably did not exist in the first place. It was Ennis' way of trying to claim to himself in Jack's presence that he was still a man.

And, Jack's response to that part-time bar woman in Signal was the claim that he was having an affair with a rancher's wife and he could get shot for doing it. When "Ennis laughed a little" in response, I think that he did not actually believe what Jack said either. More than likely, it was an insecure laugh to begin with.

I don't think either woman existed in the first place; but, I don't have a way to directly ask Ms. Proulx what was supposed to be going on. I just know that I have known, and still know one guy, who makes up similar stories to claim they are not homosexual or bisexual. And they do have sexual contact with guys and enjoy it.

Offline j.U.d.E.

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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2006, 05:53:39 am »
Hi Jude,

   Consumated you mean?     Yeah, he did.    Remember he told Jack he was "Putting the Blocks" to her.

   Now I'm taking a guess, but isn't that a cattle reference?.   Don't they put a cow in blocks so the bull can come up behind and impregnate her?

Yes, David! I meant consumated..  ;D :laugh: Sorry, that's my failing English skills... And I haven't actually heard the 'putting the blocks' line at all in the film, but that's me in denial, for not understanding it, I guess. I will watch that scene again! There is one line from Jack, just after Ennis shoots the elk that I have no clue either what it means.. but anyway..

I kind of agree with what TJ says about the women in Ennis' and Jack's life. Not su much that they are 'made up' entirely, but the fact, that nothing has really happened. I don't think for a minute that Jack had an affair with LaShawn(sp?) and in my mind, Ennis did not get very far with Cassie. He just didn't seem at all interested and the way Cassie is whining about 'girls don't fall in love with fun' tells me, that she would have loved to sleep with Ennis, but that it never actually happened.. I think both Ennis and Jack made a lot of their women-affairs up.

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Offline David

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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2006, 07:13:20 am »
Hi Jude,

      I think Ennis may have dated Cassie a while.   Remember that conversation betwen her and Alma jr.?   She was asking Alma jr. if Ennis thought she was marriage worthy or something to that effect.     She knew where he worked and the names of the guys there.   I think they did date long enough for her to fall in love with him.

    Now, that line you don't understand after the Elk gets shot, that is a hard one to hear.     Jack says:" Come on, we don't want Fish and Game to catch us with no Elk".
"Fish and Game" refers to the Officials who go around and make sure nobody hunts and fishes on State or Goverment owned Land.    Often refered to as the "Fish and Game Department", they are like Park Rangers.    They make sure you have a license to hunt or Fish if they find you.   

David

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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #53 on: May 12, 2006, 07:33:32 am »
2.) Jack's momentary resolve to end it was broken when Ennis collapsed.  I see his refusing to walk away (when it would've been the PERFECT opportunity) as Ennis shoves him & yells, "Get the f... off me!" and instead holding him & saying "Damn you" - like 'I was almost there...'

Thanks for this, LJ.  I hadn't quite figured that out yet.  Great thread, everyone.  Thanks.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #54 on: May 12, 2006, 08:56:47 am »
And it must be really icky by then, if it's been sitting open in his fridge since the last time she was over. People who see the movie without reading the story must be surprised -- Ennis doesn't seem the white wine type.

Tell you what, Katherine, this bit about the wine is a nifty if relatively unimportant example of why I'm such an advocate of Story to Screenplay, and turning to it to help me formulate my own interpretations and understanding.

I recognized that stuff for white wine the first time I saw the film, and said to myself, "WTF is Ennis doing with a bottle of white wine? Eeeew."

You don't get the wine from Annie Proulx, but here are some of the stage directions for that scene from Story to Screenplay:

"[Ennis] stands. Goes to the fridge, opens it. Takes out a half-empy bottle of cheap white wine, a legacy of CASSIE."

That's where I got that the wine was a relic of his relationship with Cassie.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #55 on: May 12, 2006, 09:20:03 am »
Oh, I guess you're right! I must have picked it up just hanging around here, because I don't have STS. It's still a little odd, though, because how many viewers are going to read the book and know why it's there, compared to those who, like you at first, will just think WTF?

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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #56 on: May 12, 2006, 11:03:21 am »
Oh, I guess you're right! I must have picked it up just hanging around here, because I don't have STS. It's still a little odd, though, because how many viewers are going to read the book and know why it's there, compared to those who, like you at first, will just think WTF?

You should seriously consider adding Story to Screenplay to your library, and I'm not jokin'. No Brokie should be without it. My copy lives next to my PC.

For one thing, it makes a handy reference, with the Annie Proulx story and the screenplay together under one cover (always bearing in mind, however, that we do see and hear things in the film that aren't in the published screenplay).

For another, the essays by Annie Proulx and Diana Ossana are interesting and enlightening. AP discusses the background to the creation of the story, and the section of her essay on earlier attempts to get the story made into a film (aka, "The Wyoming Death Trip") is very funny. As you know from our previous discussion, Diana Ossana's essay has been key for me in fashioning my own understanding of what the screenwriters were trying to convey.

I think perhaps I need to study Larry McMurtry's essay more to do it justice because my initial impression of it was disappointment because of its short length, though interesting for his placing the story of Ennis and Jack within longstanding American literary tradition.

Story to Screenplay wasn't yet available, at least not in Philadelphia, when I first began to see the film. It was a relief to learn that white wine was a Cassie leftover and that Ennis wasn't a secret white-wine drinker!
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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #57 on: May 12, 2006, 11:17:13 am »
Quote
You should seriously consider adding Story to Screenplay to your library, and I'm not jokin'. No Brokie should be without it.

I second that   :)

Quote
My copy lives next to my PC.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: Hey Jeff, how come you're able to look into my room? That's where my copy of StS always is: directly besides the keybord.

I also second your reasons for having the StS. And I also couldn't get much out of Larry McMurtry's essay; whereas I appreciate Proulx's and Ossana's essays much.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #58 on: May 12, 2006, 11:44:57 am »
It was a relief to learn that white wine was a Cassie leftover and that Ennis wasn't a secret white-wine drinker!

LOL. That's hard to picture.

I'm sure you're right about the book, Jeff (though I don't even have the DVD!). But as I've probably mentioned before, I get uncomfortable with so-called real-life commentary on Brokeback (except all of ours, of course). I rarely watch those making-of things. I'm not sure I'm going to watch the special features on my rental DVD. A couple of days ago I happened across a link on this board to an interview with Heath. I called it up and it looked really good, but still -- and despite my crush on Heath! -- I had to close the window before he even started talking.

Yes, I know, I'm very neurotic about this. I should add that somewhere I have read AP's essay, at least in part, and it was good, and I'm sure the others probably would be very enlightening. Maybe my reluctance has to do with destroying the illusion of the film's reality. Or maybe it goes back to our earlier discussion of Diana's comment and my disagreement with it -- maybe I'm afraid I'll hear or read something that will conflict with my understanding of the movie, and I'm pretty happy with my understanding as it is.


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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #59 on: May 12, 2006, 02:10:21 pm »
I'm sure you're right about the book, Jeff (though I don't even have the DVD!). But as I've probably mentioned before, I get uncomfortable with so-called real-life commentary on Brokeback (except all of ours, of course). I rarely watch those making-of things. I'm not sure I'm going to watch the special features on my rental DVD. A couple of days ago I happened across a link on this board to an interview with Heath. I called it up and it looked really good, but still -- and despite my crush on Heath! -- I had to close the window before he even started talking.

Yes, I know, I'm very neurotic about this. I should add that somewhere I have read AP's essay, at least in part, and it was good, and I'm sure the others probably would be very enlightening. Maybe my reluctance has to do with destroying the illusion of the film's reality. Or maybe it goes back to our earlier discussion of Diana's comment and my disagreement with it -- maybe I'm afraid I'll hear or read something that will conflict with my understanding of the movie, and I'm pretty happy with my understanding as it is.

Well, I haven't watched the special features on the DVD either. In fact, I've only found the time to watch the film once since the DVD came out. Add to that, I'm so technically inept it's a wonder I can play the movie, let alone find the special features.

I hate to sound like a book salesman, but I still find Story to Screenplay useful as a check rather than trusting my memory--though, as I said, there are some differences between the screenplay and what we actually see and hear on screen, and some of them I wouldn't consider minor. So buy the book and don't read the essays.

I understand what you're saying about not destroying the illusion of reality. For me, I'm glad to have every piece of "evidence" relating to this masterpiece that I can get my hands on, including what is known as the 2003 screenplay. I bought that on e-Bay in the mistaken impression that it was actually a "script" for the film as we have it; it isn't. And don't I wish I had a script for the film as we finally have it!

But this is the way I "build" my interpretations and understandings. I look to the story, the screenplay, and the film. Not to reopen an old debate, but, just as an example, this is why I'm so confirmed and content in my understanding of what Ennis and Jack actually did when they had sex, and why I believe they didn't alter their routine in twenty years: I see no "evidence" that convinces me "beyond a reasonable doubt" that they ever did anything other than what they did "the first time" (though I hope they took more time and it wasn't always so rough.  ;D )
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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #60 on: May 12, 2006, 05:05:03 pm »
I plan to buy the Story to Screenplay book, but, from the looks of things, it might be as early as September before I can afford it.

Just how close to the actual movie timeline, movie scenes and movie dialog is the official published "Screenplay?"

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #61 on: May 12, 2006, 06:07:17 pm »
I understand what you're saying about not destroying the illusion of reality. For me, I'm glad to have every piece of "evidence" relating to this masterpiece that I can get my hands on, including what is known as the 2003 screenplay.

But this is the way I "build" my interpretations and understandings. I look to the story, the screenplay, and the film.

I was that way at first, looking for every piece of info. But then I realized I felt disturbed whenever I heard or read someone involved in making the movie say something that jarred my own understanding of it. I don't feel that way here, because here belief is optional; if someone else's interpretation doesn't sound right to me, I can freely reject it. Not that my opinion never budges -- I've read many things here that changed my mind. For instance, I've gone from being agnostic about Jack's death -- we aren't meant to know -- to being tentatively sure he was murdered, based on arguments made here. And don't get me started on sorry/s'alright (though now that we're on the subject, it seemed to me when I watched today that NOBODY'S lips move during the sorrys!).

But when Larry or Diana or Ang or Heath or Jake or Linda Cardellini or Randy Quaid or whoever makes some statement about the movie, I feel obliged to accept it because they are the "experts." I'm not free to reject it. Yet, ultimately I don't think they should have absolute authority. It's a work of art and fiction that doesn't exist outside of anyone's head, creators or audience. Imaginations on both sides collaborate to bring it to life, and we all build our own individual visions. So who's to say the Brokeback in my head -- which seems plenty beautiful to me -- is any less valid than the one in Larry McMurtry's? (For that matter, I'd be willing to bet that no two of the filmmakers have EXACTLY the same vision.)

That said, if anyone directly involved ever addresses the sorry/s'alright controversy, THAT I would want to know. Because there actually IS a right and wrong answer there, which viewers will otherwise never know for sure.



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #62 on: May 12, 2006, 06:15:40 pm »
I plan to buy the Story to Screenplay book, but, from the looks of things, it might be as early as September before I can afford it.

Just how close to the actual movie timeline, movie scenes and movie dialog is the official published "Screenplay?"

To the best of my recollection, there is no difference in the order of scenes or the timeline. Most of the dialogue is the same, too, as far as I can tell, but there are noticeable differences. For example, when Alma asks Ennis if he knows somebody named Jack, the screenplay has a little addition to her line: "From Texas?"

And my one single most favorite Ennis line is not in the screenplay: When Ennis goes out on the landing outside the apartment and looks down at Jack in the parking lot, he says, "Jack fuckin' Twist!" The line is logical and, to me, makes perfect sense in the context of the scene, but it isn't in the published screenplay.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #63 on: May 12, 2006, 06:24:46 pm »
That said, if anyone directly involved ever addresses the sorry/s'alright controversy, THAT I would want to know. Because there actually IS a right and wrong answer there, which viewers will otherwise never know for sure.

Oi, that one got beaten to death at IMDb! I have a vague but possibly faulty memory that someone found a statement from Jake himself on this one. Maybe somebody has some information on this saved somewhere, so if you're really interested in this question, I suggest starting a thread on it. It's kind of lost on this one.

Incidentally, the screenplay has the following:

JACK, gentle, reassuring, takes ENNIS'S face in his hands.

JACK

It's all right ... It's all right.

It's on page 21 of Story to Screenplay.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #64 on: May 12, 2006, 06:32:44 pm »
Oi, that one got beaten to death at IMDb! I have a vague but possibly faulty memory that someone found a statement from Jake himself on this one.

I know. I'm joking. It's been beaten to death about a dozen times, there AND here. Last time I mentioned it, jokingly then too, I started a whole new debate.

The concensus, last I heard, was that Ennis says nothing and Jack says it all and that there are no sorrys, just all rights. I lean toward that myself. But that's partly based on the observation that Ennis' lips don't move during the sorrys. The thing is, I can't see Jack's move, either, until the "s'all rights" start, at which point you can see his lips move and he nods.

But I really don't mean to dredge up the debate. We'll never know the answer for sure unless someone directly involved tells us.



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #65 on: May 12, 2006, 06:41:43 pm »
The concensus, last I heard, was that Ennis says nothing and Jack says it all and that there are no sorrys, just all rights. I lean toward that myself. But that's partly based on the observation that Ennis' lips don't move during the sorrys. The thing is, I can't see Jack's move, either, until the "s'all rights" start, at which point you can see his lips move and he nods.

But I really don't mean to dredge up the debate. We'll never know the answer for sure unless someone directly involved tells us.

That's my understanding, too--Ennis says nothing, Jack says it all. Trouble is, now you've got my curiosity aroused as to whether someone directly involved has said something. Maybe I'll start a thread on it? Maybe "Jake on the 'S'alrights'?"

But not just now. ...  ::)
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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #66 on: May 12, 2006, 09:34:07 pm »
IMO, according to the excerpt from the Time Mag Interview (which I posted whole in another section), McMurtry used his artistic license and created a "Cassie" for his version of the story.

Quote
One of the main things you added to the story was women. In a lot of your work, women turn out to have far richer interior lives than men.

(Larry McMurtry) I have always argued that if you want to learn something about emotion, you have to ask women. That's why I've had three women characters who've won Oscars--[for] Patricia Neal, Cloris Leachman and Shirley MacLaine. I've always thought that for my interests, emotionally, I have to seek women to talk about. Men don't talk about emotion. They don't understand it.

If McMurtry thinks men don't talk about or understand emotion, what is he then?

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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #67 on: May 13, 2006, 12:10:59 pm »
Some more interesting thoughts on the gun symbology, using "The Devil's Right Hand" as a launching point.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0388795/board/nest/41977484
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #68 on: May 14, 2006, 02:26:21 am »
Thanks, Front! You keep good tabs on imdb. Please keep posting the interesting ones as you find them. I thought the previous gun one was great, as you know. And I think we should consider luring some of those good posters over here.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #69 on: May 17, 2006, 11:47:24 pm »
Maybe I'll start a thread on it? Maybe "Jake on the 'S'alrights'?"

But not just now. ...  ::)

It sounds like a good idea for a thread to me... but I bet Jake/ Heath wouldn't remember.  I wonder if they know there's so much controversy about the "I'm sorry" idea.  I'm still firmly in the camp of people who believe that they hear it.  It never even crossed my mind to question it during my theatre viewings.  Heath seems to have mastered the art of ambiguous soft-speech while breathing/exhaling for this film.  The "I'm sorry" problem reminds me of the new controversy over whether he says "I love you" into the double shirts.  I, unfortunately, think this this second idea is just wishful thinking.  Heath looked completely distressed on Oprah when she asked him what Ennis's last line was.  I mean if you miss that, it's almost like missing the movie.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2006, 02:37:29 pm by atz75 »
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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #70 on: May 18, 2006, 09:17:45 am »
It sounds like a good idea for a thread to me... but I bet Jake/ Heath wouldn't remember.  I wonder if they know there's so much controversy about the "I'm sorry" idea.  I'm still firmly in the camp of people who believe that they hear it.  It never even crossed my mind to question it during my theatre viewings.  Heath seems to have mastered the are of ambiguous soft-speech while breathing/exhaling for this film.  The "I'm sorry" problem reminds me of the new controversy over whether he says "I love you" into the double shirts.  I, unfortunately, this this second idea is just wishful thinking.  Heath looked completely distressed on Oprah when she asked him what Ennis's last line was.  I mean if you miss that, it's almost like missing the movie.

After my own nine theater viewings, I had to come down on the side of ... so much depends on the quality of the theater sound system and where you're sitting, not to mention the quality of your own hearing, for what you hear or what you think you hear.

I think it was my third viewing before I actually heard any dialogue in the second tent scene. Then I just heard Jack. Then I discovered the controversy. Then I would have sworn on my sainted mother's grave that I heard Ennis apologize. "I'm sorry" seemed to make sense in context. He'd been, er, a little rough with Jack the first time, and then he'd gone off the next morning without so much as a by-your-leave. In the end, however, I guess it was as a result of subsequent viewings and reading further discussion back at IMDB that I ended up in the camp of Ennis doesn't say anything.
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #71 on: May 18, 2006, 10:23:21 am »
Heath looked completely distressed on Oprah when she asked him what Ennis's last line was.  I mean if you miss that, it's almost like missing the movie.

Oprah is a Class A moron.  I hope Heath has come to realize, if he didn't already, that she does *not* speak for the audience of this film, or any other group, except maybe Overpaid Arrogant Assholes of America.

Sorry.  Can never resist an opportunity where she's concerned.   :P  You're right - if you miss that, it is like missing the movie.  But I think it's safe to say that she never came close to not missing it in the first place.

Oh, and as if that wasn't a stupid enough thing to say/ask, how about when she said that Jake and Heath had given "the performances OF THEIR LIVES?"  I *loved* the way Jake looked at Heath for a long time after that, as if they were mind-melding on the same thought:  "Jesus, I hope not.  We're 25 and 26 years old, for Christ's sake!"

Idiot.  Did I mention how much I loathe her? 
« Last Edit: May 18, 2006, 10:27:32 am by ednbarby »
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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #72 on: May 18, 2006, 10:30:30 am »
Oprah is a Class A moron.  I hope Heath has come to realize, if he didn't already, that she does *not* speak for the audience of this film, or any other group, except maybe Overpaid Arrogant Assholes of America.

Sorry.  Can never resist an opportunity where she's concerned.   :P  You're right - if you miss that, it is like missing the movie.  But I think it's safe to say that she never came close to not missing it in the first place.

Oh, and as if that wasn't a stupid enough thing to say/ask, how about when she said that Jake and Heath had given "the performances OF THEIR LIVES?"  I *loved* the way Jake looked at Heath for a long time after that, as if they were mind-melding on the same thought:  "Jesus, I hope not.  We're 25 and 26 years old, for Christ's sake!"

Idiot.  Did I mention how much I loathe her? 

Oh, Barb, don't hold back. It's unhealthy to keep this stuff bottled up inside of you.  ;) (Loved your comment about the mind meld!)
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline starboardlight

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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #73 on: May 19, 2006, 12:29:39 pm »
But when Larry or Diana or Ang or Heath or Jake or Linda Cardellini or Randy Quaid or whoever makes some statement about the movie, I feel obliged to accept it because they are the "experts." I'm not free to reject it.

you can go ahead and reject them, because even they, the artists, don't collectively agree. I remember on Oprah, Anne Hathaway saying that how Jack died was obvious, and then Oprah asked "was it not obvious to anyone?" Jake raised his hand. They each interpret the story in their own way.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #74 on: May 19, 2006, 01:13:58 pm »
you can go ahead and reject them, because even they, the artists, don't collectively agree. I remember on Oprah, Anne Hathaway saying that how Jack died was obvious, and then Oprah asked "was it not obvious to anyone?" Jake raised his hand. They each interpret the story in their own way.

Thanks, Nipith. I agree. And that's a great anecdote about Anne and Jake -- the fact that it's not even obvious to the guy who played the character really shows how ambiguous it is!

The more I think about it, the more I object to the idea that anyone involved in making the movie automatically has interpretive authority over the viewer. Art is a pact between creator and audience, both dependent on each other's imaginations. Still, it's hard to fight my insecure feeling that the creators' intentions count for more than my personal response. So for me, the safest thing is to avoid hearing it.

Offline kirkmusic

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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #75 on: May 21, 2006, 04:19:17 am »
I remember on Oprah, Anne Hathaway saying that how Jack died was obvious, and then Oprah asked "was it not obvious to anyone?" Jake raised his hand. They each interpret the story in their own way.

I thought when Oprah asked Anne "Did she know?" she was asking if Lureen knew about Jack and Ennis.  So when Anne said it was obvious, she was referring to the reactions she had on the phone that we are are so familiar with and appriciative of that let the audience know that yes indeed, Lureen put 2 and 2 together during that conversation and knew she was talking to the person her husband really loved.  At least I thought that's what they were talking about.

Offline Sheyne

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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #76 on: May 21, 2006, 04:29:57 am »
Oprah is a Class A moron.  I hope Heath has come to realize, if he didn't already, that she does *not* speak for the audience of this film, or any other group, except maybe Overpaid Arrogant Assholes of America.

Sorry.  Can never resist an opportunity where she's concerned.   :P  You're right - if you miss that, it is like missing the movie.  But I think it's safe to say that she never came close to not missing it in the first place.

Oh, and as if that wasn't a stupid enough thing to say/ask, how about when she said that Jake and Heath had given "the performances OF THEIR LIVES?"  I *loved* the way Jake looked at Heath for a long time after that, as if they were mind-melding on the same thought:  "Jesus, I hope not.  We're 25 and 26 years old, for Christ's sake!"

Idiot.  Did I mention how much I loathe her? 

 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #77 on: May 21, 2006, 11:08:11 am »
I must say I was disappointed that Oprah did not 'get' the movie (on her first viewing). I was eternally thankful tho' that she showcased the cast & film on her show & praised it & encouraged people to see it.  She does have an unprecedented amount of influence on people regarding books, causes, films... 

Another person who praised the film as one of the best & advised his vast audience to see it - Howard Stern.
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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #78 on: May 22, 2006, 08:41:37 am »
I thought when Oprah asked Anne "Did she know?" she was asking if Lureen knew about Jack and Ennis.  So when Anne said it was obvious, she was referring to the reactions she had on the phone that we are are so familiar with and appriciative of that let the audience know that yes indeed, Lureen put 2 and 2 together during that conversation and knew she was talking to the person her husband really loved.  At least I thought that's what they were talking about.

That's how I interpreted it, too, Kirk (though it is all tied in with knowing how Jack really died, so Nipith is right, too).  And to agree with Amanda again, if you don't get that she knew about Ennis and Jack by the end of that conversation (and at the point of knowing suggested to Ennis that he "look up" Jack's folks), you've pretty much missed the entire movie, and the last two scenes are certainly utterly lost on you.

No wonder she was so big on Crash.  She's another one apparently who needs her movies spoon-fed to her.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2006, 08:46:47 am by ednbarby »
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Offline ednbarby

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Re: Ennis, Cassie and the Twists (revised title)
« Reply #79 on: May 22, 2006, 08:45:41 am »
I must say I was disappointed that Oprah did not 'get' the movie (on her first viewing). I was eternally thankful tho' that she showcased the cast & film on her show & praised it & encouraged people to see it.  She does have an unprecedented amount of influence on people regarding books, causes, films... 

Another person who praised the film as one of the best & advised his vast audience to see it - Howard Stern.

True, Silk.  And I have some respect for Stern because of that.  Truthfully, I've found him to have very good taste in films before (er, or at least my taste ;)).  He's vehemently defended a couple others that I've loved over the years in the face of great criticism and/or fear from his audience, too.  Shakespeare in Love was one of them (ducking the SPR Avengers).  Yes, he's a child who regularly degrades women, and I can't abide that second one.  But I have a smidgeon of respect in that he at least can recognize a masterpiece when he sees one, and moreover that he ain't afraid to say so even when he knows damned well his demographic will have a coniption fit because of it.
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