Another Lying Senator (Tales From The Toilet)

[David In Indy]

Here is part of the police interview with Senator Craig on June 11th, 2007. Sorry for any typos, but I was typing this as I was listening to it on MSNBC. I recorded it earlier today....

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Sen, Craig: Am I gonna have to fight you in court?

Sgt. Karsnia: No. No. I'm not going to go to court unless you want me there.

Sen. Craig: 'Cause I don't want to be in court either.

Sgt. Karsnia: OK. I don't either.

Sgt. Karsnia: Um. Here's the way it works, um, you'll be released today, okay.

Sen. Craig: Okay.

Sgt. Karsnia: All right. I, I know I can bring you to jail, but that is not my goal here, okay?

Sen. Craig: Don't do that. You, you...

Sgt. Karsnia: I'm not going to bring you to jail.

Sen. Craig: You solicited me.

Sgt. Karsnia: Okay. We're going to get, We're going to get into that.

Sen. Craig: Okay...

Sgt. Karsnia: Okay.

Sen. Craig: I sit down, um, go to the bathroom and ah, you said our feet bumped. I believe they did, uh, because I reached down and scooted over and um, the next thing I knew, under the bathroom divider comes a card that says Police. Now, um, (sighs) that's about as far as I can take it. I don't know of anything else. Ah, your foot came toward mine, mine came toward yours. Was that natural? I don't know. Did we bump? Yes, I think we did. You said so. I don't disagree with that.

Sgt. Karsnia: Okay. I  don't want to get into a pissing match here.

Sen. Craig: We're not going to.

Sgt. Karsnia: Good. Um.

Sen. Craig: I don't, ah, I am not gay. I don't do these kinds of things and...

Sgt. Karsnia: It doesn't matter. I don't care about sexual preference or anything like that. Here is your stuff back, sir. Um, I don't care about sexual preference.

Sen. Craig: I know you don't. You are out to enforce the law.

Sgt. Karsnia: Right.

Sen. Craig: But you shouldn't be out to entrap people either.

Sgt. Karsnia: This isn't entrapment. Um, you're skipping some parts here, but what about your hand?

Sen. Craig: What about it? I reached down to my foot like this. There was a piece of paper on the floor. I picked it up...

Sgt. Karsnia: Okay, sir. We deal with people that lie to us every day.

Sen. Craig: I'm sure you do.

Sgt. Karsnia: I'm sure you do too, sir.

Sen. Craig: In government, so do I.

Sgt. Karsnia: I'm sure you do. We deal with a lot of people that are very bad people. You're not a bad person.

Sen Craig: No, I don't think I am.

Sgt. Karsnia: Okay. So what I'm telling you is, I don't want to be lied to.

Sen. Craig: Okay.

Sgt. Karsnia: Okay. So we'll start over, you're going to get out of here. You're going to have to pay a fine and that'll be it. Okay. I don't call the media. I don't do any of that type of crap.

Sen. Craig: Fine.

Sgt. Karsnia: All right, so let's start from the beginning. You went into the bathroom.

Sen. Craig: I went in the bathroom...

Sgt. Karsnia: Okay. And when you went into the stalls, then what?

Sen. Craig: Sat down.

Sgt. Karsnia: Okay. Did you do anything with your feet?

Sen. Craig: Positioned them. I don't know. I don't know at the time. I'm a fairly wide guy.

Sgt. Karsnia: I understand.

Sen. Craig: I tend to spread my legs when I lower my pants so they won't slide.

Sgt. Karsnia: Okay.

Sen. Craig: Did I slide them too close to yours? Did I, I looked down once, your foot was close to mine...

Sgt. Karsnia: Okay. And then with the hand. Um, how many times did you put your hand under the stall?

Sen. Craig: I don't recall. I remember reaching down once. There was a piece of toilet paper back behind me and picking it up...

Sgt. Karsnia: I saw there's a...

Sen. Craig: My right hand was next to you.

Sgt. Karsnia: I could tell it with my ah, I could tell it was your left hand because your thumb was positioned in a faceward motion. Your thumb was on this side, not on this side.

Sen. Craig: Well, we can dispute that. I'm not going to fight you in court and I, I reached down with my right hand to pick up the paper.

Sgt. Karsnia: But I'm telling you that I could see that, so I know that's your left hand. Also, I could see a gold ring on this finger, so it's obvious it was the left hand.

Sen. Craig: Yeah, okay. My left hand was in the direct opposite of the stall from you...

Sgt. Karsnia: Okay. You, you travel through here frequently, correct?

Sen. Craig: I do.

Sgt. Karsnia: Um...

Sen. Craig: Almost weekly.

Sgt. Karsnia: Have you been successful in these bathrooms before?

Sen. Craig: I go to that bathroom regularly.

Sgt. Karsnia: I mean for any type of other activities.

Sen. Craig: No. Absolutely not. I don't seek activity in bathrooms.

Sgt. Karsnia: It's embarrassing.

Sen. Craig: Well, it's embarrassing for both. I'm not gonna fight with you.

Sgt. Karsnia: I know you're not going to fight me. But that's not the point. I would respect you and I still respect you. I don't disrespect you but I'm disrespected right now and I'm not trying to act like I have all kinds of power or anything, but you're sitting here lying to a police officer.

Sen. Craig: I, I, I...

Sgt. Karsnia: It's not a (inaudible) I'm getting from somebody else. I'm (inaudible). I am trained in this and I know what I am doing. And I say you put your hand under there and you're going to sit there and...

Sen. Craig: I admit I put my hand down.

Sgt. Karsnia: You put your hand and rubbed it on the bottom of the stall with your left hand.

Sen. Craig: No. Wait a moment...

Sgt. Karsnia: And I'm not dumb, you can say I don't recall....

Sen. Craig: If I had turned sideways, that was the only way I could get my left hand over there...

Sgt. Karsnia: It's not that hard for me to reach.  (inaudible) It's not that hard. I see it happen every day out here now.

Sen. Craig: Okay. You do. (inaudible)

Sgt. Karsnia: I just, I just, I guess, I guess I'm gonna say I'm just disappointed in you, sir. I just really am. I expect this from the guy that we get out of the hood. I mean, people vote for you.

Sen. Craig: Yes, they do.

Sgt. Karsnia: Unbelievable, unbelievable.

Sen. Craig: I'm a respectable person and I don't do these kinds of...

Sgt. Karsnia: And (inaudible) respect right now though.

Sen. Craig: But I didn't use my left hand.

Sgt. Karsnia: I thought that you...

Sen. Craig: I reached down with my right hand like this to pick up a piece of paper.

Sgt. Karsnia: Was your gold ring on your right hand at any time today?

Sen. Craig: Of course not. Try to get it off. Look at it.

Sgt. Karsnia: Okay. Then it was your left hand. I saw it with my own eyes.

Sen. Craig: All right, you saw something that didn't happen.

Sgt. Karsnia: Embarrassing, embarrassing. No wonder why we're going down the tubes. Anything to add?

Det. Nelson: Uh, no.

Sgt. Karsnia: Embarrassing. Date is 6/11/07. At 12:36, interview is done.

Sen Craig: Okay.

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[louisev]

Good god.  And we have people like this sending kids to Baghdad.

[Kelda]

interesting. The problem here, of course is not the incident, 2 consenting adults can do what they like as long as it doesn't involve me, IMO but the lying, well thats a whole different ball-game. But thats what politicians throughout the world do I'm afraid.

[Shasta542]

interesting. The problem here, of course is not the incident, 2 consenting adults can do what they like as long as it doesn't involve me, IMO but the lying, well thats a whole different ball-game. But thats what politicians throughout the world do I'm afraid.

Thank you, Kelda, for the unbiased reflection. I appreciate that.

Men who lie and do things they shouldn't have always been the ones who send the troops---not just the ones who are being sent to Baghdad. And we are the ones who send those men into power, so ultimately--the finger points back to us. Even if we didn't vote for the ones who are in office now, I'm sure at one time or another, the person we put into power was not the best choice. If not -- that would be an exception.

[David In Indy]

I typed part of this out for you earlier, but here is the interrogation tape in its entirety. It starts out a little muddy, but it gets better later on. This clip is about 10 minutes long.


[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AfYGm3kT1k4[/youtube]

[Shasta542]

Politicians---do they never learn? RISKY BUSINESS.

[David In Indy]

Politicians---do they never learn? RISKY BUSINESS.

You know, this whole thing totally embarrasses me as a gay man. Because it just perpetuates some of these negative stereotypes the gay community has been trying to shed over the years.

And to think he actually voted against gay marriage, civil unions and gays in the military! What a hypocrite! I've been wondering though, what people are MOST angry about; his hypocrisy or his lies? Personally I am most angry at the hypocrisy. We all know politicians lie. But the hypocrisy of all this really TAKES THE CAKE!! 

[David In Indy]

*****BREAKING NEWS ON CNN************

Senator Craig may reconsider his resignation from the US Senate if he gets his guilty plea reversed.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/09/04/craig.reconsideration/index.html


God. There's no word in the English language to describe how I feel about this. And even if there was, they wouldn't let me use it here. I don't know if I should be pissed at him, or pity him.

What a total hypocrite. 

[David In Indy]

Let's look at this again. CNN aired a more complete version of the police interrogation tape tonight. The lies and hypocrisy is astounding!

Sorry for any typos. I'm doing the best I can here!

Edit: This script starts just after the senator has been read his rights. This is a fairly complete script. I think the only part missing is when the poice officer says something about the senator's palm being up when it should have been down. Other than that, everything is here, I think. It helps to play the tape I posted earlier and read this script as you listen to it.




Sgt. Karsnia: Do you wish to talk to us at this time?

Sen. Craig: I do.

Sgt. Karsnia: Okay um, I just want start off with your side of the story. Okay. So, a....

Sen. Craig: So I go into the bathroom here as I normally do. I'm a commuter too here.

Sgt. Karsnia: Okay.

Sen. Craig: I sit down, um, to go to the bathroom and am, you said our feet bumped. I believe they did, ah, because I reached down and scooted over and um, the next thing I knew, under the bathroom divider comes a card that says "Police". Now, um (sighs) that's about as far as I can take it. I don't know of anything else. Ah, your foot came toward mine. Mine came towards yours. Was that natural? I don't know. Did we bump? Yes, Ithink we did. You said so. I don't disagree with that.

Sgt. Karsnia: Okay. I don't want to get into a pissing match here.

Sen. Craig: We're not going to.

Sgt. Karsnia: Good, um...

Sen. Craig: I didn't, ah, I am not gay. I don't do these kinds of things and...

Sgt. Karsnia: It doesn't matter. I don't care about sexual preference or anything like that. Here's your stuff back sir. Um, I don't care about sexual preference.

Sen. Craig: I know you don't. You;re out to enforce the law.

Sgt. Karsnia: Right.

Sen. Craig: But you shouldn't be out to entrap people either.

Sgt. Karsnia: This isn't entrapment.

Sen. Craig: All right.

Sgt. Karsnia: Um, you're skipping some parts here, but what, what about your hand?

Sen Craig: What about it? I reached down, my foot like this. There was a piece of paper on the floor. I picked it up.

Sgt. Karsnia: Okay.

Sen Craig: What about my hand?

Sgt. Karsnia: Well, you're not being truthful with me. I'm kind of disappointed in you, Senator. I'm real disappointed in you right now. Okay. I'm not, just so you know, just like everybody. I,I,I treat with dignity. I try to pull them away from the situation....

Sen. Craig: I, I...

Sgt. Karsnia: And not embarrass them.

Sen. Craig: I appreciate that.

Sgt. Karsnia: And I...

Sen. Craig: You did that after the stall.

Sgt. Karsnia: I will say every person I've had so far has told me the truth. We've been respectful to each other and then they've gone on their way. And I've never had to bring anybody to jail because everybody's been truthful to me.

Sen. Craig: I don't want you to take me to jail and I think...

Sgt. Karsnia: I'm not gonna take you to jail as long as you're cooperative but I'm not gonna lie. We...

Sen. Craig: Did my hand come below the divider? Yes, it did.

Sgt. Karsnia: Okay, sir. We deal with people that lie to us everyday.

Sen. Craig: I'm sure you do.

Sgt. Karsnia: I'm sure you do too, sir.

Sen. Craig: And gentlemen, so do I.

Sgt. Karsnia: I'm sure you do. We deal with a lot of people that are very bad people. You're not a bad person.

Sen. Craig: No, I don't think I am.

Sgt. Karsnia: So, what I'm telling you. I don't want to be lied to.

Sen. Craig: Okay.

Sgt. Karsnia: Okay. So we'll start over. You're gonna get out of here. You're gonna have to pay a fine, and that will be it. Okay. I didn't call the media. I don't do any of that type of crap.

Sen Craig: Fine.

Sgt. Karsnia: Okay.

Sen. Craig: Fine.

Sgt. Karsnia: All right. So let's start from the beginning. You went into the bathroom.

Sen. Craig: I went into the bathroom.

Sgt. Karsnia: And what did you do when you...

Sen Craig: I stood beside the wall waiting for a stall to open. I got in the stall, sat down, and I started to go to the bathroom. Ah, did our feet come together? Apparently they did bump. Well, I won't dispute that.

Sgt. Karsnia: Okay. When I got out of the stall, I noticed other stalls open.

Sen. Craig: They were at the time. At the time I entered, one, one at the time I entered. I stood and waited.

Sgt. Karsnia: Okay.

Sen. Craig: They were all busy, you know.

Sgt. Karsnia: We're you (inaudible) out here while you were waiting? I could see your eyes. I saw you playing with your fingers and then look up. Play with your fingers and then look up.

Sen. Craig: Did I glance at your stall? I was glancing at a stall right beside yours waiting for a fella to empty it. I saw him stand up and therefore I thought it was going to empty.

Sgt. Karsnia: How long do you think you stood outside the stalls?

Sen Craig: Oh, a minute or two at the most.

Sgt. Karsnia: Okay. And when you went in the stall, then what?

Sen. Craig: Sat down.

Sgt. Karsnia: Okay. Did you do anything with your feet?

Sen. Craig: Positioned them. I don't know. I don't know at the time. I'm a fairly wide guy.

Sgt. Karsnia: I understand.

Sen Craig: I have to spread my legs...

Sgt. Karsnia: Okay.

Sen Craig: When I lower my pants so they won't slide.

Sgt. Karsnia: Okay.

Sen. Craig: Did I slide them too close to yours? Did I? I looked down once, your foot was close to mine.

Sgt. Karsnia: Yes.

Sen. Craig: Did we bump? Ah, you said so, I don't recall that. But apparently we were close.

Sgt. Karsnia: Yeah. Well, your foot did touch mine on my side of the stall.

Sen. Craig: All right.

Sgt. Karsnia:Okay. And then with the hand. Um, how many times did you put your hand under the stall?

Sen. Craig: I don't recall. I remember reaching down once. There was a piece of toilet paper back behind me and picking it up.

Sgt. Karsnia: I know it's hard to describe here on tape but actually what I saw was your fingers come underneath the stalls. You're actually ta.. touching the bottom of the stall divider.

Sen. Craig: I don't recall that.

Sgt. Karsnia: You don't recall.

Sen. Craig: I don't believe I did that. I don't...

Sgt. Karsnia: I saw, I saw...

Sen. Craig: I don't do those things.

Sgt. Karsnia: I saw your left hand and I could see the gold wedding ring when it, when it went across. I could see that. On your left hand, I could see that.

Sen. Craig. Wait a moment. My left hand was over here.

Sgt. Karsnia: I saw there's a...

Sen. Craig: My right hand was next to you.

Sgt. Karsnia: I could tell it with my ah, I could tell it was your left hand because your thumb was positioned in a faceward motion. Your thumb was on this side, not on this side.

Sen. Craig: Well, we can dispute that. I'm not going to fight you in court and I, I reached down with my right hand to pick up the paper.

Sgt. Karsnia: But I'm telling you that I could see that so I know that's your left hand. Also I could see a gold ring on this finger. So that's obvious it was the left hand.

Sen. Craig: Yeah. Okay. My left hand was in the direct opposite of the stall from you.

Sgt. Karsnia: Okay. You, you travel through here frequently, correct?

Sen. Craig: I do.

Sgt. Karsnia: Um...

Sen. Craig: Almost weekly.

Sgt. Karsnia: Have you been successful in these bathrooms before?

Sen. Craig: I go to that bathroom regularly.

Sgt. Karsnia: I mean for any type of other activities.

Sen. Craig: No. Absolutely not. I don't seek activity in bathrooms.

Sgt. Karsnia: It's embarrassing.

Sen. Craig: Well it's embarrassing for both. I'm not gonna fight with you.

Sgt. Karsnia: I know you're not going to fight me. But that's not the point. I would respect you and I still respect you. I don't disrespect you but I'm disrespected right now and I'm not trying to act like I have all kinds of power or anything. But you're sitting here lying to a police officer.

Sen. Craig: I, I, I...

Sgt. Karsnia: It's not a (inaudible) but I am trained in this and I know what I am doing. And I say you put your hand under there and you're going to sit there and...

Sen. Craig: I admit I put my hand down.

Sgt. Karsnia: You put your hand down and rubbed it on the bottom of the stall with your left hand.

Sen. Craig: No. Wait a moment.

Sgt. Karsnia: And I. I'm not dumb. You can say I don't recall....

Sen. Craig: If I had turned sideways, that was the only way I could get my left hand over there.

Sgt. Karsnia: It's not that hard for me to reach (inaudible). It's not that hard. I see it happen every day out here now.

Sen. Craig: (inaudible) You do. All right.

Sgt. Karsnia: I just. I just. I guess... I guess I'm gonna say I'm just disappointed in you sir. I just really am. I expect this from the guy that we get out of the hood. I mean, people vote for you.

Sen. Craig: Yes they do (inaudible)

Sgt. Karsnia: Unbelievable. Unbelievable.

Sen. Craig: I'm a respectable person and I don't do these kinds of...

Sgt. Karsnia: And (inaudible) respect right now though.

Sen. Craig: But I didn't use my left hand.

Sgt. Karsnia: I thought that you...

Sen. Craig: I reached down with my right hand like this to pick up a piece of paper.

Sgt. Karsnia: Was your gold ring on your right hand at any time today?

Sen. Craig: Of course not! Try to get it off. Look at it.

Sgt. Karsnia: Okay. Then it was your left hand. I saw it with my own eyes.

Sen. Craig: All right. You saw something that didn't happen.

Sgt. Karsnia: Embarrassing. Embarrassing. No wonder why we're going down the tubes. Anything to add?

Det. Nelson: Uh, no.

Sgt. Karsnia: Embarrassing.

[moremojo]

I actually do think the police force/officer here was engaged in a kind of entrapment. Sorry, but I have a friend who was entrapped by a plainclothes police officer in a public park (officer approached my friend, made verbal advances, when friend indicated interest verbally [no touching, no exposure, not even any profanity], other officers hidden in the bush jumped friend, tazed him, and arrested him on charges of public lewdness), and I have very little respect for officers engaged in this kind of activity.

At the same time, we all know what Craig was up to in that restroom; and yet, the most egregious things I think he actually did were prodding the officer's foot with his and swiping his hand under the stall partition, thus violating his neighbor's right to privacy in his stall. But there was no actual SEX involved in this scenario.

What weighs me towards antipathy towards Craig is not so much his conduct in this one instance, but his hypocrisy in pursuing same-sex activity while actively oppressing the rest of us who try to live our lives openly, in peace and with a modicum of dignity.