Author Topic: A question about the Final Argument scene  (Read 7244 times)

mvansand76

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A question about the Final Argument scene
« on: September 06, 2007, 04:21:08 pm »
OK, I really don't know how to formulate this question without sounding like an idiot. Anyway, here goes.

From the first time I saw the movie I had a real problem with this scene. It's the one scene that absolutely breaks my heart, but the reason is different than I always thought. because I really cannot see the love between them anymore in this scene... Ennis has become a burden to Jack and the other way around too. Especially the way Jack looks at Ennis with poorly hidden disgust. Even though the dialogue is identical to that in the Short story, the whole scene feels so different, so barren, so full of emotion and rage and frustration, but lacking in the thing that has kept them together all those years: love. I think I would have been devestated beyond repair if the dozy embrace hadn't followed it and made me believe in them again.

This is not a "Did Jack quit Ennis?" thread, I would just like to hear your opinion about this scene. What do you think?

Let me know if I am making sense or not....

 :-\

Offline Shasta542

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Re: A question about the Final Argument scene
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2007, 09:36:49 pm »
I can just say that I perceived that scene differently. I felt like they loved each other so much that the frustration overwhelmed them. Ennis was very reluctant to tell Jack that he couldn't come until later-- I think he thought that Jack would take it a little better than he did, tho. I felt love and heartbreak.
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moremojo

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Re: A question about the Final Argument scene
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2007, 09:50:59 pm »
I definitely think the scene shows how very much Ennis was in love with Jack. Notice how even after Ennis realizes the truth of Jack's sexuality and the full ramifications of it, and has threatened Jack as a result, he cannot follow through on the threat, and collapses in tears of frustration and fear when he thinks he is losing Jack once and for all.

Jack's feelings are more ambivalent. He's definitely feeling frustration, but one can argue that he's feeling a new resolve here as well ("I wish I knew how to quit you"). He reflects on the passage of time, and of how the chance for the kind of life he really wanted for the two of them has quietly slipped away. He goes to comfort Ennis in his despair, but there's an air of grudging responsibility here, and his anger has in no way dissolved ("Damn you, Ennis"). It pains me to think it, but I think it's a real possibility that we are seeing Jack in the process of letting Ennis go here--not necessarily letting go of his love, but of his dream of having the kind of relationship with him that he had always desired. He clearly is unhappy when watching Ennis drive away for that last time...as much as the film is saying goodbye to Jack here, Jack may be silently saying goodbye to Ennis and all Ennis had meant to him.

Offline Daphne7661

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Re: A question about the Final Argument scene
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2007, 10:17:06 pm »
Goodness, but it amazes me to feel such deep emotion for this film and our beloved Jack and Ennis even after all this time.  I am almost a year and a half out, and I STILL get that deep ache when I remember that lake scene...

Snavel del Snuit - I can understand your thoughts on this scene.  However, my thoughts are that, basically, Ennis is "stuck" and Jack is "deeply sad"....

Jack's sadness jumps out at us and at Ennis when he proclaims, while looking so solemnly forward, that he misses Ennis so much he can hardly stand it....  I think, getting that sadness, longing and pain OUT and to Ennis so that he hears it, releases a floodgate of emotions for Jack, and he can no longer hide them the next day.  He is sad.  He is lonely.  He realizes quite clearly that Randall is a fill-in for what he really wants and misses -- Ennis!!

He misses all that he and Ennis could have been to each other and how much they could have shared together, if only Ennis could break free of his fear, just a little, enough to trust Jack and not look back, but, he couldn't.  Poor Ennis...  He just couldn't get out of his own way....

I think, in this scene, that Jack is mourning his and Ennis' lost chance...   I think, when he says he wishes he could quit Ennis, that he really means that.  He wants to let go and he doesn't know how.  He wants to let go because, at this point, it hurts him too much to hang on, but, when Ennis breaks down from realizing that Jack might actually leave him for real and for good, it is my thought that Jack then realizes that this is all hurting Ennis much more than Ennis might be hurting him.  Ennis is being eaten up inside, and Jack, who, as Clancy taught me, understood love, feels he needs to let Ennis go and release the pressure on Ennis...  What Jack doesn't know is that this is Ennis' point of no return.  Ennis is starting to understand....

But, as we know, sadly, it is too late....

 :'(
...Nice to know ya, Ennis del Mar...

Offline Brokeback_Dev

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Re: A question about the Final Argument scene
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2007, 10:04:44 pm »
I think the argument I wish i knew how to quit you was the climax of the movie.. Everything that happened before that argument was everything their relationship could be, a glimpse of true love, but sadly it had somehow become "A couple high altitude f**ks once or twice a year"..  It wasn't enough..not for Jack or not for Ennis.  Sadly it was the end for them both.  Its the most heartbreaking scene I have ever seen in any movie ever.  My question is did Ennis ever get passed that sad resolve?  I hope so..
« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 10:11:40 pm by brokeback_dev »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: A question about the Final Argument scene
« Reply #5 on: September 11, 2007, 08:33:36 pm »
I really cannot see the love between them anymore in this scene... Ennis has become a burden to Jack and the other way around too. Especially the way Jack looks at Ennis with poorly hidden disgust.

I think the love is still there, but it's mingled with a lot of frustration on both their parts. I don't think Jack is disgusted with Ennis; I think he is frustrated and angry and sad.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: A question about the Final Argument scene
« Reply #6 on: September 11, 2007, 09:18:13 pm »
I definitely think the scene shows how very much Ennis was in love with Jack. Notice how even after Ennis realizes the truth of Jack's sexuality and the full ramifications of it, and has threatened Jack as a result, he cannot follow through on the threat, and collapses in tears of frustration and fear when he thinks he is losing Jack once and for all.

Jack's feelings are more ambivalent. He's definitely feeling frustration, but one can argue that he's feeling a new resolve here as well ("I wish I knew how to quit you"). He reflects on the passage of time, and of how the chance for the kind of life he really wanted for the two of them has quietly slipped away. He goes to comfort Ennis in his despair, but there's an air of grudging responsibility here, and his anger has in no way dissolved ("Damn you, Ennis"). It pains me to think it, but I think it's a real possibility that we are seeing Jack in the process of letting Ennis go here--not necessarily letting go of his love, but of his dream of having the kind of relationship with him that he had always desired. He clearly is unhappy when watching Ennis drive away for that last time...as much as the film is saying goodbye to Jack here, Jack may be silently saying goodbye to Ennis and all Ennis had meant to him.
Very beautifully put, Scott. However, on your last point, I agree that Jack is letting go...but what I think he is doing is settling. He is bidding goodbye to the life together that he fantacized, but keeping hold of the much reduced dream of seeing Ennis once or twice a year...way out in the middle of nowhere.  Also, Jack had a tendency toward hyperbole, and complaining. So he probably could look forward to at least 4 or 5 HAFs a year. Still a very strained situation and a GBOAUS, that's for sure.
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: A question about the Final Argument scene
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2007, 09:33:18 pm »
Mel, this is a great thread!  And, I agree with Lee that a lot of the responses here are really, really moving and touching.
 :'(

I do understand what you mean that this argument scene happens on an entirely different emotional level than we encounter almost anywhere else in the film between the two men.  And, I think this has to do with how much we hear them open up and let loose with their emotions, frustrations, anger, etc.

I think the strength of their argument (how heated the argument becomes) is one sign of how much they do still love each other.  They're both completely invested in the argument and both are consumed by their respective emotions by this point.  I like Daphne7661's point that Ennis seems "stuck" and Jack seems "deeply sad"... that feels about right to me.  But, I think Jack was just as stuck as Ennis and Ennis was also just as sad as Jack.  (I think the yin and yang metaphor is very strong here when it comes to their emotions... they play off of one another and create situations for each other that cause "stuck" and "sad" emotions to come into play for both of them).

As for the question of the timing of the flashback...  I think this is vital to the scene as is the hug at the end.  This has been discussed a lot before, but it's worth repeating.  The flashback comes in and interrupts the "real time" argument scene so we don't know what happened between Jack and Ennis during the time that we're viewing and experiencing the flashback as Ang Lee places it in the film.  But the sweetness that the flashback infuses helps to remind the viewer of how pure their love was and has been throughout and the peace of the flashback serves as a contrast to the fraught situation occurring during the argument.  I think the hug at the end is the thing that gives the viewer continued hope for their relationship and allows us to sense as Proulx wrote... that by the end of the argument things had been wrenched back to almost where things were before the argument started (nothing finished and nothing resolved)...  It helps create the sense that the relationship will at least carry-on.
 :'(
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Offline Sammi

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Re: A question about the Final Argument scene
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2010, 09:20:23 pm »
It seemed like in this scene - Jack was already in a bad mood/pissed off before Ennis even mentioned November.  The scene begins with them silently packing up their things, they are not talking.  Then jack goes to get in his truck and stands there with the door open, the entire time they are not even making much eye contact.  He already looks pissed.  Was it just hard for them to say goodbye?  Jack mentioned going to see his folks and his tone and body language were foul, this is before Ennis told him he could not get away for August.  Then after that the argument began.  What was going on there?

Offline Monika

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Re: A question about the Final Argument scene
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2010, 11:46:28 pm »
It seemed like in this scene - Jack was already in a bad mood/pissed off before Ennis even mentioned November.  The scene begins with them silently packing up their things, they are not talking.  Then jack goes to get in his truck and stands there with the door open, the entire time they are not even making much eye contact.  He already looks pissed.  Was it just hard for them to say goodbye?  Jack mentioned going to see his folks and his tone and body language were foul, this is before Ennis told him he could not get away for August.  Then after that the argument began.  What was going on there?
that's how I've always interpreted the scene; it's hard to say good bye. Also, what becomes clear during the argument that follows is that Jack holds Ennis responsible for the fact that they have to part over and over again ("We could have had a real good life together, but you didn't want it Ennis") instead of living that sweet life together. So I think it's a combinationion of sadness about having to say goodbye once more and suppressed anger or bitterness about the situation that is also directed against Ennis.
I'd like to add though, that in spite of what is said during the argument, I do believe that Jack understands where Ennis is coming from. In spite of their different life styles during their latter years (Jack by then having a steady job and money) they both come from very similar backgrounds after all (a fact which is specially highlighted in the short story). Therefor I think, that although he definitely holds a fair amount of resentment against Ennis , a lot of it really is directed towards the situation they are in.
When you think about it, Jack plays it pretty safe. He stays with Lureen in spite of being more aware of himself and his needs than Ennis He never comes out, and keeps his relationship with Randall a secret. I think that indicates that he deep down understands and shares many of Ennis's fears.
 
so to return to the question; I think Jack is both sad over having to say goodbye (again),and angry at Ennis over having to do so but that deep down that anger is directed more at the situation itself. I have a hard believing that Jack, in spite of having money and his ability to dream and believe, wasn't aware of the many real dangers for gay men at that time and place.
This all goes back to my firm belief that this story ultimately is a critique of a homophobic society, and not a story about personal choices. Jack and Ennis both make the choices they do because of their backgrounds and the environment they grew up and lived in. They never stood a chance, and perhaps this is what Jack with time came to realise. If we interpret that heartwrecking sad and lost look he gives Ennis truck as Ennis drives away after the final argument, as Jack having lost his hope, I think we should think of it as society finally managing to rob Jack of what has been such a big part of his character; his ability to dream. And somehow fittingly tragic, shortly after, Jack's physical form also dies.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: A question about the Final Argument scene
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2010, 12:27:41 am »
That is so true, friend Buffy. Jack is stuck between the proverbial rock and hard place, the rock being Ennis, and the hard place being life without Ennis. He opts for staying stuck, and that's what a lot of us do, and who can blame him, or us?
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Offline Meryl

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Re: A question about the Final Argument scene
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2010, 12:35:45 am »
This all goes back to my firm belief that this story ultimately is a critique of a homophobic society, and not a story about personal choices. Jack and Ennis both make the choices they do because of their backgrounds and the environment they grew up and lived in. They never stood a chance, and perhaps this is what Jack with time came to realise. If we interpret that heartwrecking sad and lost look he gives Ennis truck as Ennis drives away after the final argument, as Jack having lost his hope, I think we should think of it as society finally managing to rob Jack of what has been such a big part of his character; his ability to dream. And somehow fittingly tragic, shortly after, Jack's physical form also dies.

Beautifully said, Monika.  :(
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Offline mariez

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Re: A question about the Final Argument scene
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2010, 11:10:49 am »
I'm glad this thread got bumped - I hadn't seen it before!



I felt like they loved each other so much that the frustration overwhelmed them.

I completely agree with this - that's precisely what this scene said to me.  They wouldn't be human if they both weren't frustrated with the situation.  This was an argument that had to happen sooner or later - how could it not? 


This all goes back to my firm belief that this story ultimately is a critique of a homophobic society, and not a story about personal choices. Jack and Ennis both make the choices they do because of their backgrounds and the environment they grew up and lived in.

Yes.  Exactly.  Jack and Ennis are both the protagonists in the story - the antagonist is destructive rural homphobia.  And that's why it seems clear to me that AP never stands in judgment of Jack and Ennis and their "choices."


I think that indicates that he deep down understands and shares many of Ennis's fears.

Yeah, and I think "deep down" is an important part of this statement.  On a more superficial level, neither one of them liked to think too hard about the other one's life while they were apart - so part of the resentment and bitterness they are both feeling here stems from that superficial level where each of them thinks that maybe the other has it "easier" somehow.  Ennis sees Jack as a man who, despite being able to "phone in" his marriage" - still has a wife and a son at home, is able to take time off whenever he wants and is wearing fancy, warm clothes and driving a brand new truck (I always thought it was genius on the part of someone - wardrobe?  Ang Lee himself?  to have Ennis wearing the same corduroy jacket he was wearing way back in their 1967 reunion camping trip.  I wonder if Jack noticed that?)  And Jack sees Ennis as a guy who is "free" of his wife and children, and able to openly date that waitress (without having to sneak around way out in the middle of nowhere).  But, again, it's too painful for either one of them to envision the lives they have apart from each other, so, sadly, the fears and understandings they have in common don't come to the surface - only the bitterness and resentment does. 

AP really set the story up brilliantly, didn't she? 
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The worst loneliness is not to be comfortable with yourself.    ~~~~~~~~~ Mark Twain

Offline Monika

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Re: A question about the Final Argument scene
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2010, 05:04:31 pm »
Yes.  Exactly.  Jack and Ennis are both the protagonists in the story - the antagonist is destructive rural homphobia.  And that's why it seems clear to me that AP never stands in judgment of Jack and Ennis and their "choices."

Very well put, Mariez. And I agree.
No, AP never stands in judgement of Jack and Ennis. On the contrary, she makes us feel as though the decisions they made for themselves were more or less inevitable, direct consequences of their upbringing and the trauma of being gay in that environment. Society forced them to live their lives the way they did.

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: A question about the Final Argument scene
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2010, 12:31:55 am »
Very well put, Mariez. And I agree.
No, AP never stands in judgement of Jack and Ennis. On the contrary, she makes us feel as though the decisions they made for themselves were more or less inevitable, direct consequences of their upbringing and the trauma of being gay in that environment. Society forced them to live their lives the way they did.
Absolutely.
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