TOTW 07/07: Was Mr. Twist homophobic?

[Penthesilea]

Hi BetterMostians  !

Before we get into this week's TOTW, I'd like to remind you that you (yes, you) are welcome to suggest topics for discussion. Got a question you meant to ask for a long time? Want to relive an old debate? Changed your mind about something in the course of time?
Well, here's the place for it. Please don't hesitate to PM me or ineedcrayons about it. We love to hear your nominations  .


We now have a topic that has been discussed before on several threads, but never was a topic of its own. So maybe many BetterMostians have missed it yet. We're looking forward to hopefully a wide range of opinions on it.

Was Mr. Twist homophobic?

Mr. Twist (aka Old Man Twist, aka OMT) sure wasn't a candidate for "loveliest father and husband of the year" - but was he indeed a homophobe?

Another quick reminder: if you do have an opinion on this, but don't want to elaborate further; or just want to express your gut feeling, it's perfectly fine to reply with only a simple "yes" or "no" as answer.

[mvansand76]

Oh he definitely wasn't jumping up and down with excitement at the knowledge of Jack being gay, but I do think that he would have found a way to be accepting if Jack had brought Ennis to "lick that damn ranch into shape", because that would have saved his ranch.

[Brokeback_Dev]

Old man twist was homophobic in the way in despised his child for not being the "man" he should be.  Jack was a wonderful man and his undying love for Ennis Del Mar is part of what makes him the man he was.

[serious crayons]

OMT was an obnoxious SOB, but in the movie he doesn't say anything homophobic.

[moremojo]

He most likely was homophobic (most people in our culture are homophobic to varying degrees, and that includes most gay people), but not necessarily in a virulent way. His contempt for Jack, a man whose parents must have realized by this point to have been gay, is very apparent, as is his lack of sympathy for Ennis, who he surely realizes was Jack's lover. At the same time, I don't believe Mr. Twist was the type to go bashing out someone's brains with a tire iron just because they were different.

[Toast]

Jack seemed to know that he could bring a man back to the Twist ranch and work with his father.   He told the old man about Ennis, and didn't seem to get any stong negative signals from his father.   When Ennis nixed that, Jack was willing to substitute another man for Ennis and intended to set up a home in Lightning Flat.   I think Old Man Twist was one of these cold, bordering on cruel, people who cared little for anybody's feeling since he felt that there was work to be done and it had to be done.   Whether one were gay or straight or asexual probably meant little to him.   He judged a man or woman by the job getting done.   Affection, lust or sympathy meant little to him.  His coldly attentive wife was probably more affectionate than he could understand.   

No, I don't think John C. Twist was homophobic.   I like his being included in the film, since he represents lots of people we see in our lives.

[jstephens9]

First of all, do you really think Mr. Twist would even know what homophobic meant  Anyway, just as with so much of the movie and the book, so much is left to the imagination here and so many different intrepretations can be made. Mr. Twist certainly didn't act like a very nice person and he certainly did not seem to care much about Ennis. However, there is really never anything said or even implied as to the reason why he dislikes Ennis. Did he dislike Ennis because he knew that Jack and Ennis had a relationship? Perhaps he disliked him because he never followed through on Jack's wish that they move to the ranch, build a log cabin, and whip things into shape. After all Mr. Twist would have liked the help with the ranch, but it never came to pass basically because of Ennis' refusal. Perhaps Mr. Twist blamed Ennis for Jack's death. After all, would Jack probably would not have died if Ennis would have decided to live and be with him. These are just all possible thoughts about Mr. Twist. Again, we never really know, just as we really never know so much of this very deep and intense masterpiece.

[serious crayons]

I think Mr. Twist knew all about Jack and Ennis. He indicates it symbolically when he says "I know where Brokeback Mountain is." And he indicates it more overtly when he talks about how Jack intended to leave his wife and ranch up with Ennis (and then another fella). OMT knows the score.

Still, he's a jerk. He's a jerk to his son, just like lots of fathers of straight sons are jerks to them. And he's a jerk to Ennis, like a lot of fathers of straight children are jerks to their kids' romantic partners. In the context of this movie, some viewers are tempted to draw a line from OMT's behavior to Jack's sexual orientation. But the movie doesn't draw that line.

This for me is a particularly interesting twist -- so to speak -- in the plot. Ennis has spent his life assuming that anybody who knew about his sexual orientation would condemn him. Now here are two people who don't. One of them is a kind and grieving mother, so that's not so surprising. But the other is an SOB, the kind of person that everything has led Ennis -- and us viewers -- to assume would be homophobic.

Yet he isn't, or at least gives no sign of it.

[huntinbuddy]

OMT was an obnoxious SOB, but in the movie he doesn't say anything homophobic.

I agree with crayons here.   While he may have been homophobic in his own way, or with his kind who lived in the area, he never said anything in the movie or short story that removed all doubt like Joe Aguirre did.

I think John Twist was fully aware of the relationship that Ennis had with Jack.  Just the way he sneers when he talks about Jack "bringin another fella up here..." was what he felt was the most damaging thing he could say to Ennis at the time.   And as a side note, living on a ranch, OMT would have seen homosexual activity between the animals on his ranch.  I grew up on a farm, and it happens.....naturally.

[moremojo]

And as a side note, living on a ranch, OMT would have seen homosexual activity between the animals on his ranch.  I grew up on a farm, and it happens.....naturally.

A lot of city folk are ignorant of this phenomenon, and as we are becoming a human family wherein the majority will soon be urban, I imagine the ignorance of, or at least lack of exposure to this reality will increase even further.

I don't think this would necessarily have had any bearing on whether Mr. Twist was homophobic or not, though. Many bigots, when confronted with the facts of homosexual behavior occurring in non-human species, counter that human beings "should be" held to a higher standard than non-human animals, and should not pursue base natural inclinations that amoral animals mindlessly follow.

[shortfiction]

    I wouldn't say homophobic, but he definitely saw Jack as not having lived up to whatever expectations the old man might have had.  For whatever reasons, he never went to see Jack rodeo or give him advice--as we heard from Jack himself.  There was no pleasing the old man, as he also said.   He also made it clear that Jack should not have thought of himself as so special that he could choose his own place of scattering for his ashes; they were going into the family plot and that was that.   Stubborn old man.

And may I say that Peter McRobbie (?) did a great job of playing him.

[injest]

ok...I already posted my opinion somewhere else but I won't let that stop me from writing it again...

I LIKE old man Twist. I feel for him.

ESPECIALLY knowing the short story background.

and no I don't think he was homophobic..

[serious crayons]

Peter McRobbie was fantastic. I especially love his expression when he starts in on his monologue: "Jack used to say, 'Ennis Del Mar ...'" and the light shines through his right eye and he looks kind of crazed.

But you know who else might have been good in that role? I was just thinking of this last night. Chris Cooper.

[Penthesilea]

I LIKE old man Twist. I feel for him.

ESPECIALLY knowing the short story background.

I can understand that you feel for him (although my own sympathy for him is very limited). He was a bitter, old man with no prospects for the place he had worked hard to keep it for all his life. Going nowhere but downhill. Additionally he lost his child. No matter how much of a jerk he was, nor whether he loved Jack on any level, this is still hard. It's the next generation that is extinguished.

But you like him? Especially knowing the story background?
Hunh?
Would you like to explain?

[Scott6373]

When did the word "homophobic" become a widely used term?  Say that word today and 99% of people will know what it means.  Say it in the 50's, 60's and even early 70's, and no one would know what it meant, if the word even existed.  That being said, this questions begs asking:  Can someone be a "phobic" anything, if that state did not exist in their lifetime.  Can we, in hindsight, armed with modern knowledge, cast anyone from earlier time in human existence, in a certain light.  Is that fair of us, to judge them based on knowledge that was not available during their time?

[serious crayons]

But aren't we just using a modern term to ask the question, "Did Mr. Twist dislike homosexual people?" Because certainly THAT state existed in his lifetime. I think that's the underlying issue, however we choose to word it (and I changed "gay" to "homosexual" to avoid any confusion that way).

Or, if you prefer, considering the fact that disliking homosexual people was probably the norm in that time and place, one could ask "Did Mr. Twist seem to accept (or at least tolerate) Jack's and Ennis' sexual orientation?"

To which I would say the answer is, yes.

[Scott6373]

Having had a father much like the stud duck, I realised, as he lay in his casket, that he did the best he could with the knowledge and education he had been given.  That didn't mean I had to agree or condone the way he treated me, but it did mean that I had to not judge his understanding (or lack thereof).

[serious crayons]

That didn't mean I had to agree or condone the way he treated me, but it did mean that I had to not judge his understanding (or lack thereof).

OK ... 

Scott, I guess I don't understand what you're driving at. Are you saying we shouldn't "judge" Mr. Twist? Well, I suppose you could describe it that way.

But OMT is fictional. What we're really doing is analyzing fiction, which I don't see as analogous to your feelings about your father.

It's less about deciding on the morality of his behavior, or judging, than it is about understanding his character and why he said what he said and what it meant for the story.

[Scott6373]

But OMT is fictional. What we're really doing is analyzing fiction, which I don't see as analogous to your feelings about your father.

It's less about deciding on the morality of his behavior, or judging, than it is about understanding his character and why he said what he said and what it meant for the story.

You're missing the point.  My father and Mr Twist were of the same generation, cut from the same cloth.  I didn't consider my father homophic, just as I don't consider OMT homophobic, because labelling someone that presumes that they have knowledge of what they are "afraid" of.  I can call them ignorant, inflexible, but not homophobic.

[serious crayons]

You're missing the point.  My father and Mr Twist were of the same generation, cut from the same cloth.  I didn't consider my father homophic, just as I don't consider OMT homophobic, because labelling someone that presumes that they have knowledge of what they are "afraid" of.  I can call them ignorant, inflexible, but not homophobic.

Well, you're missing mine. The question is merely, did Mr. Twist have anything against homosexuality?

I don't know anything about your father. But Mr. Del Mar, who was also cut from similar cloth, did have something against it. If you don't like applying the term "homophobic" anachronistically, we can just say that Mr. Del Mar hated homosexuality so much that he would expose his sons to the corpse of a homosexual man who'd been tortured to death, evidently to deter them from making the same choices. And it's not inconceivable that he would have actually participated in the murder himself.

Mr. Twist does not appear to have felt that kind of hatred toward homosexual men. In fact, he doesn't give any sign of hating them at all.

That's all we're talking about.

[Scott6373]

Well I wans't involving myself in the previous conversations.  I was responding to the thread name.   

[serious crayons]

Well I wans't involving myself in the previous conversations.  I was responding to the thread name.   

Oh, OK. I guess when someone posts, I tend to assume they're responding to what's been said so far.

Anyway, I think the word "homophobic" in the title is not an attempt to be historically precise, but just shorthand for getting opinions on how Mr. Twist felt about homosexuality. The surprising thing about him, IMO, is how little he seems to object to it -- not how much.

I know what you're saying. Scott. When assessing the racial attitudes of the average 19th century person, for example, it seems a bit unfair to hold them to modern standards, because they haven't had the same opportunities for social enlightenment. Still, when someone's views stand out as particularly enlightened compared to the norms of the time -- as for example, Mark Twain's views about race did in the late 19th century -- it is worth noting.

[injest]

When I talk about ANYTHING I bring all of my life experiences to bear on it. How can you not? you are shaped by your environment. I think comparing the characters in BBM and comparing them to your own life and expressing your thoughts and feelings is the very reason we are here.

I have never been good at analyzing what the authors meant...I go by Annie's quotee I suppose...that the story is partly written by its readers...

so MY response ALSO was based on my own feelings. Sorry.

[Brown Eyes]

Well, I agree with Crayons in the general interpretation that Old Man Twist was an all-around unpleasant, rude and mean-spirited guy but not necessarily homophobic.  If we extrapolate into the movie from the story we know he was abusive to Jack, but not necessarily based on Jack's sexuality especially since OMT's tendency towards abusiveness started when Jack was so young.   

I think the fact that Jack told his parents about at least two men (Ennis and the "other fellow") in his life says a lot about how that aspect of his life was perceived and dealt with in his parents' house.  And, I also think that OMT would have accepted Ennis on the ranch with Jack, as others have said, with the main objective from OMT's point of view being the care and maintenance of the ranch.

And, one point I think might be interesting to consider is that Ennis's encounter with OMT is part of his growing and learning experience following Jack's death.  In meeting both of Jack's parents he learns that people could surprise him for the better in the nature of their reactions to their knowledge about his relationship with Jack.  Ennis had gone through life expecting attacks and hatred at every turn when it came to people suspecting about his sexuality.  But, upon meeting Jack's Mom (who clearly knows about his love for Jack) he encounters kindness and sympathy and someone who shares his grief.  And, with OMT, it is a bit more complex because the conversation with him is so uncomfortable. OMT clearly is trying to needle Ennis about what he knows of Jack's statements about the other man, etc.  But, still, OMT is not attacking Ennis or Jack with homophobic slurs or exhibiting the overt and classic signs of homophobia that Ennis might have expected. 

[serious crayons]

I think comparing the characters in BBM and comparing them to your own life and expressing your thoughts and feelings is the very reason we are here.

I agree.

so MY response ALSO was based on my own feelings. Sorry.

Of course, IMO, you're going to analyze the story and movie in terms of your own life experiences. As you said, how could you do otherwise? To me, it makes sense to try to figure out how OMT is presented to us by the authors/filmmakers -- they are, after all, characters on their own, and not stereotypes of people we know in real life. But it also makes sense to discuss how we feel about OMT (and everything else).

And, one point I think might be interesting to consider is that Ennis's encounter with OMT is part of his growing and learning experience following Jack's death.  In meeting both of Jack's parents he learns that people could surprise him for the better in the nature of their reactions to their knowledge about his relationship with Jack. 

I agree completely with this, too. I think the whole point of having OMT be surprisingly unhomophobic is to show Ennis that, contrary to his expectation that everybody is homophobic, it turns out it's not as simple as he assumed. And maybe, just to add to the tragedy of his fate, he overestimated the universality of anti-homosexual feelings.

[Sagebrush Dan]

I agree completely with this, too. I think the whole point of having OMT be surprisingly unhomophobic is to show Ennis that, contrary to his expectation that everybody is homophobic, it turns out it's not as simple as he assumed. And maybe, just to add to the tragedy of his fate, he overestimated the universality of anti-homosexual feelings.

I agree too.

And.... I believe the movie left out a very important sentence from the book.  In the book, when OMT is going on about Jack and Ennis moving to his place, he says, "I could have used the help."  This is not in the movie.  This says to me that although OMT may be a little peeved about the relationship, he would have welcomed Ennis and Jack to his ranch — maybe not with open arms, but at least he might have let them live their lives there. 

To threadjack.... I also believe that the book was far more sympathetic to Ennis than the movie was.

[brokeplex]

I agree completely with this, too. I think the whole point of having OMT be surprisingly unhomophobic is to show Ennis that, contrary to his expectation that everybody is homophobic, it turns out it's not as simple as he assumed. And maybe, just to add to the tragedy of his fate, he overestimated the universality of anti-homosexual feelings.

An excellent point. I think that the fear of those forced into a closet in a what is a generally homophobic culture works both ways. Not only do the closeted hide their nature from others who MIGHT or MIGHT NOT be negatively judgemental, but they also cut off friends and relations who just might be to some degree supportive if the issue were honestly addressed. After reading the short story and seeing the movie, I thought that the scene in the Twist kitchen was one of the most tragic. I felt that OMT was in his own way trying to reach out to Ennis, and in his own oblique fashion telling him that he (OMT) regrets that Jack's ideas and plans, "never come to pass".  Yes, OMT appears to most of us as a crude unpleasant man. But doesn't Jack bear some of the responsibility for cutting his parents out of much of his life? I am reminded of scientific reports of wild animals such as some in the larger sized feline family ,like cougars and panthers, who after having been raised in a cage since kittenhood will not leave the cage even if the door of the cage is opened for them. They only know the "security" of the cage and can not conceive of anything else. Perhaps that is the real tragedy of Ennis and Jack and all of those who have lived lives of quiet desperation and regret.
 

[moremojo]

An excellent point. I think that the fear of those forced into a closet in a what is a generally homophobic culture works both ways. Not only do the closeted hide their nature from others who MIGHT or MIGHT NOT be negatively judgemental, but they also cut off friends and relations who just might be to some degree supportive if the issue were honestly addressed. After reading the short story and seeing the movie, I thought that the scene in the Twist kitchen was one of the most tragic. I felt that OMT was in his own way trying to reach out to Ennis, and in his own oblique fashion telling him that he (OMT) regrets that Jack's ideas and plans, "never come to pass".  Yes, OMT appears to most of us as a crude unpleasant man. But doesn't Jack bear some of the responsibility for cutting his parents out of much of his life? I am reminded of scientific reports of wild animals such as some in the larger sized feline family ,like cougars and panthers, who after having been raised in a cage since kittenhood will not leave the cage even if the door of the cage is opened for them. They only know the "security" of the cage and can not conceive of anything else. Perhaps that is the real tragedy of Ennis and Jack and all of those who have lived lives of quiet desperation and regret.
 

You've honed in here on a reality of the closet that a lot of straight people do not appreciate--that they themselves are hurt and damaged by it too! Lesbigay family members and friends may choose to hide a vital part of themselves from their straight counterparts, or may even cut off relations altogether, all the potential detriment of everyone.

No one escapes unscathed from a racist, misogynist, and homophobic society.

[Fran]

To threadjack.... I also believe that the book was far more sympathetic to Ennis than the movie was.

I knew the movie was more sympathetic to Jack than the story was, but I hadn't thought about the treatment of Ennis.  Good observation, Sagebrush Dan.  I think I have to agree with you here regarding Ennis.

[Sagebrush Dan]

Yeah, Fran.  That was a surprise when I read the book.  In the book, when Jack asked Ennis if he missed him, Ennis replied that he realized his biggest mistake was not going after Jack when he drove away in the pickup.  Also mentioned that he used Jack as a sexual fantasy quite a bit.  However, in the movie, Ennis simply replied, "I don't know."
Also the book mentioned that Ennis was confused by his bisexuality, but the movie makes no mention of this.

Ang Lee basically turned each character into an archetype. It worked, but it would have been nice to see each character as three-dimensional.

[serious crayons]

In the book, when Jack asked Ennis if he missed him, Ennis replied that he realized his biggest mistake was not going after Jack when he drove away in the pickup.  Also mentioned that he used Jack as a sexual fantasy quite a bit.  However, in the movie, Ennis simply replied, "I don't know."
Also the book mentioned that Ennis was confused by his bisexuality, but the movie makes no mention of this.

Ang Lee basically turned each character into an archetype. It worked, but it would have been nice to see each character as three-dimensional.

Interesting. I think of Ennis in the movie as being MORE three-dimensional.

But then, I also think of him as gay rather than bisexual. And I think of him as extremely confused by his sexuality, even though he doesn't mention it aloud. And when he says "I don't know," I think he really does know quite a bit, but again doesn't want to say it.

[brokeplex]

Yeah, Fran.  That was a surprise when I read the book.  In the book, when Jack asked Ennis if he missed him, Ennis replied that he realized his biggest mistake was not going after Jack when he drove away in the pickup.  Also mentioned that he used Jack as a sexual fantasy quite a bit.  However, in the movie, Ennis simply replied, "I don't know."
Also the book mentioned that Ennis was confused by his bisexuality, but the movie makes no mention of this.

Ang Lee basically turned each character into an archetype. It worked, but it would have been nice to see each character as three-dimensional.

Excellent point, maybe for the purposes of film making the screenplay was written showing Ennis as far more one dimensional than he was in the short story. In the movie I would like to have seen more of the Ennis that is in Annie Proulx's story, he was a bit more believable. But, the incredible acting skill of Heath Ledger managed to rescue much of that other "dimension" of Ennis with gestures, and facial expressions, even if it is not always reflected in the dialog. On another point, some of Ennis's playful humor is missing in the released version of the movie, but it is in the screenplay. For example, in 1972 when the boys are on their "damned blue parka" trip, Ennis brings Jack a paper sack with cans of beans in it, remembering how Jack hated beans, "No more beans!" I would have liked that bit of humor.

[Brown Eyes]

But then, I also think of him as gay rather than bisexual. And I think of him as extremely confused by his sexuality, even though he doesn't mention it aloud. And when he says "I don't know," I think he really does know quite a bit, but again doesn't want to say it.

I think this is a really interesting point about film-Ennis.  I think there's a huge disconnect between what he knows or understands internally and what he is willing to say out loud.

Maybe the most extreme manifestation of this (besides the motel scene and the "I don't know") is the pie scene with Cassie.  By the time of the pie scene, I think Ennis is much more aware and is at a critical stage of articulating his situation to himself, but he's not able to say much of anything to Cassie in terms of coherently explaining himself to her.

I think in the phone booth, when he actually *talks* to Lureen about Brokeback, this is a signal that Ennis has gone through a change.

[moremojo]

I think in the phone booth, when he actually *talks* to Lureen about Brokeback, this is a signal that Ennis has gone through a change.

And isn't it interesting that Alma, as far as we know, and unlike Lureen, never hears the name Brokeback Mountain? Jack was always more articulate than Ennis, and accordingly revealed the name of that sacred place even to those for whom it would have had no meaning.

[Artiste]

Was Mr. Twist homophobic? 

At times, I did think so !!

At other times, I thought maybe that old man Twist is not homophobic!

Did anyone think that way: yes and then maybe no ??

Moremojo please come back ; we love your posts!!
Moremojo, come back, I need you!! Your posts were delightful!!

Au revoir, to you and to all too!!

Hugs!

[optom3]

Was Mr. Twist homophobic? 

At times, I did think so !!

At other times, I thought maybe that old man Twist is not homophobic!

Did anyone think that way: yes and then maybe no ??

Moremojo please come back ; we love your posts!!
Moremojo, come back, I need you!! Your posts were delightful!!

Au revoir, to you and to all too!!

Hugs!

My gut instincts tell me that he was homophobic,yet selfish enough to let his desire to have the ranch licked into shape,over ride,or put up with the situation.In my experience with those who hate,whoever or whatever,there is an inherent selfish spirit,which allows them to put aside those feelings,if to do so would benefit them,emotionally or financially.
I see OMT as fitting in with this genre.He is undoubtedly,mean spirited,as witness the pleasure he derives from mentioning the other man to Ennis.Sadistic,as per the bathroom incident in the S.S and probably homophobic when it suits him.

[Brown Eyes]

Thanks for reviving this thread Artiste.  This is definitely one of the most complex, recurring debates out there about BBM.

[Artiste]

Mon plaisir Atz!

It my pleasure, yes!


Indeed, it's complex... as you say!!

I am still puzzle by it!!

You?

Hugs!

[brokeplex]

if we judge him by our standards, he was homophobic.

but is it useful to judge a character from a different time and place by our standards?

I think not.

 My own feelings are that OMT was very disappointed in Jack, and his disappointment over Jack's failure to delivery on his plans to "lick this ranch into shape" overrode any homophobia. Lets face it, OMT understood the relationship which Jack had with Ennis, and if OMT's primary motivations were homophobic, he didn't have to let Ennis in the door at all.

[Brown Eyes]

if we judge him by our standards, he was homophobic.

but is it useful to judge a character from a different time and place by our standards?

I think not.

 My own feelings are that OMT was very disappointed in Jack, and his disappointment over Jack's failure to delivery on his plans to "lick this ranch into shape" overrode any homophobia. Lets face it, OMT understood the relationship which Jack had with Ennis, and if OMT's primary motivations were homophobic, he didn't have to let Ennis in the door at all.

Yes, I agree that OMT was disappointed in Jack... and he seems quite motivated by the whole issue of Jack coming back to the ranch to help work on the ranch (with Ennis or with another fellow... either of whom would also be a help on the ranch).  He seems to be enjoying his ability to needle Ennis over his level of knowledge about their relationship and over his (OMT's) superior knowledge about certain aspects of Jack's life (i.e. the other fellow).

In all of this OMT comes across as a jerk, but not overwhelmingly homophobic.  OMT seems to illustrate the point that a person can be a jerk without necessarily being homophobic (and at least not frighteningly so).  I think OMT and Mrs. Twist are both learning experiences for Ennis... demonstrating that people can surprise you.  That things aren't always as bad as his fears kept indicating to him over all those years.  Mrs. Twist is kind, welcoming and seemingly accepting of his and Jack's relationship... And, OMT is a grump, but nothing too overwhelmingly intimidating.

I don't think we're given many indications that OMT really is homophobic... at least he doesn't seem virulently so. 

[BlissC]

Yes, I agree that OMT was disappointed in Jack... and he seems quite motivated by the whole issue of Jack coming back to the ranch to help work on the ranch (with Ennis or with another fellow... either of whom would also be a help on the ranch).  He seems to be enjoying his ability to needle Ennis over his level of knowledge about their relationship and over his (OMT's) superior knowledge about certain aspects of Jack's life (i.e. the other fellow).

In all of this OMT comes across as a jerk, but not overwhelmingly homophobic.  OMT seems to illustrate the point that a person can be a jerk without necessarily being homophobic (and at least not frighteningly so).  I think OMT and Mrs. Twist are both learning experiences for Ennis... demonstrating that people can surprise you.  That things are always as bad as his fears kept indicating to him over all those years.  Mrs. Twist is kind, welcoming and seemingly accepting of his and Jack's relationship... And, OMT is a grump, but nothing too overwhelmingly intimidating.

I don't think we're given many indications that OMT really is homophobic... at least he doesn't seem virulently so. 

Interesting discussion, and good that's it's been resurrected. I guess I'd always assumed that OMT was homophobic (always dangerous to assume anything!  ) probably because of his general unfriendliness to Ennis, but given what Jack tells us about his father, I guess it's pretty easy to draw that conclusion.

Like so many other scenes in the SS/movie though there's so much more going on in that scene than appears on the surface, and I admit, until I read the responses on this thread I hadn't spotted a lot of what's going on. Looking at it again now though, I can see that yes, there's nothing in OMT's side of the conversation really to indicate that he is homophobic, and it does seem that he knows the score with Jack and Ennis.

It's interesting though that OMT was disappointed in Jack, presumably a large part of which was because Jack didn't want to settle down and sort out the family ranch. Right from the start of the SS we're told Jack was "crazy to be anywhere but Lightning Flat", which I guess is a pretty standard reaction from a teenager, both then and now - you don't want to be tied to your parents, and you want to spread your wings and be independent. Jack also tells us though that his father was never interested in his rodeoing career - I wonder why? We know that Jack had an abusive childhood, but his father's disappointment in him seemed to start before he left the family home completely. I think it's that disappointment of Jack that shines through in that scene rather than homophobia, but I'm intrigued about the source of that disappointment now.

[brokeplex]

It's interesting though that OMT was disappointed in Jack, presumably a large part of which was because Jack didn't want to settle down and sort out the family ranch. Right from the start of the SS we're told Jack was "crazy to be anywhere but Lightning Flat", which I guess is a pretty standard reaction from a teenager, both then and now - you don't want to be tied to your parents, and you want to spread your wings and be independent. Jack also tells us though that his father was never interested in his rodeoing career - I wonder why? We know that Jack had an abusive childhood, but his father's disappointment in him seemed to start before he left the family home completely. I think it's that disappointment of Jack that shines through in that scene rather than homophobia, but I'm intrigued about the source of that disappointment now.

an abusive childhood?

Sure I've read the accounts in the SS, but what we know we know from Jack's perspective later translated thru Ennis many years later. Jack may or may not have been exaggerating, or wholesale lying to Ennis. I believe that Ennis didn't expect the hospitable offer of cherry cake and coffee from mother Twist, maybe Jack and Ennis overestimated the degree of hostility that their family's would have offered them. Or maybe not. I'm just not willling to totally accept what Jack says as gospel in regard to OMT.

As far as Jack's credibility as a story teller. Well, I think that Jack is outright lying when on the evening of TS1 when asked by Ennis, "what is the Pentecost?" Jack said that he didn't know. Jack was his mother's only son, she was a religious Pentecostal, she would have attempted to indoctrinate Jack with her theology. I suspect that Jack just didn't wish to share all of the hellfire and brimstone theology at that moment, so he lied, and lets remember he lied about a lot of things in the course of those 20 years with Ennis.

[Artiste]

Thanks Bliss!

What you say:
...  abusive childhood, but his father's disappointment in him seemed to start before he left the family home completely. I think it's that disappointment of Jack that shines through in that scene rather than homophobia, but I'm intrigued about the source of that disappointment now. 

.......

Bliss and others:
I find what you said there interesting in many ways!!

Jack is indeed still young a buck (as you say teenager like) when he says that!! But later on, after many years meeting with Ennis, does Jack say negative things about old man Twist ??

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Artiste]

Wow, thanks brokeplex!

You are waking me up with your news:
... I think that Jack is outright lying when on the evening of TS1 when asked by Ennis, "what is the Pentecost?" Jack said that he didn't know. Jack was his mother's only son, she was a religious Pentecostal, she would have attempted to indoctrinate Jack with her theology. I suspect that Jack just didn't wish to share all of the hellfire and brimstone theology at that moment, so he lied, ... 
.........

Brokeplex and to all too:
it was obvious that Jack wanted sex with Ennis there and then, and did not want to talk at lenght about religions which stressed sex as hell (and worst: homosexuality) !!

Right??

Au revoir,
hugs!!   I'll give you some free rubbers for that brokeplex!! ha! ha!!

[myprivatejack]

Wow, thanks brokeplex!

You are waking me up with your news:
... I think that Jack is outright lying when on the evening of TS1 when asked by Ennis, "what is the Pentecost?" Jack said that he didn't know. Jack was his mother's only son, she was a religious Pentecostal, she would have attempted to indoctrinate Jack with her theology. I suspect that Jack just didn't wish to share all of the hellfire and brimstone theology at that moment, so he lied, ... 
.........

Brokeplex and to all too:
it was obvious that Jack wanted sex with Ennis there and then, and did not want to talk at lenght about religions which stressed sex as hell (and worst: homosexuality) !!

Right??

Au revoir,
hugs!!   I'll give you some free rubbers for that brokeplex!! ha! ha!!

I guess young Jack wasn't interested in religion,or at least,he had some teaching on his mother's side that soon were forgotten or left in a corner .It's a very usual contra-reaction in teenagers to rebel against any principles or beliefs from their parents; more still if their life at home was as abusive as Jack's, what produces a wish of going away with all their rules behind.I don't think,however,that he lied to Ennis when this asked him what the Pentecost was,because first; he simply didn't remember,or he wasn't interested at all,more than didn't know it.
2nd.,he wanted Ennis to feel comfortable by his side-now I'm speaking in a simple friend way...-,so he avoided him to feel ignorant in any way.Their relationship up in the mountain-besides the initial attraction which it began with-was founded in a sharing of duties and a complementary sense of each other's way of being; the most Ennis felt comfortable and easy with his friend,the most he opened himself to him.Jack knew that,so he preferred to make him feel as being by an equals side.
And 3rd.,and as you,Artiste,say very well,he wanted sex with Ennis,but he was looking for the proper moment because he realised the fears his friend had.Speaking about religious fundamentalism was not so proper as topic and this wasn't either that right as a moment,when they were getting a degree of intimacy as never before-and that led,as we see a little time after,to the explosion of what had been forming between the both of them-.Let's be true,speaking about hellfire and brimstone makes straight any "thing" you want in other shape¡

[Artiste]

Thanks myprivatejack!

Your post is eloquent as well as finishing with a good sense of humour!

Being that youthful, both Ennis and Jack should not think about religion that much! Not if one desires sex!!

Who started that religious talk as a subject?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Artiste]

Was he always?

[Artiste]

If he was strongly so homophobic, then would he not or have yelled BAD names at the sight of Ennis entering his house?



Please answer anyone? Everyone ?

Au revoir,
Hugs!

[serious crayons]

If he was strongly so homophobic, then would he not or have yelled BAD names at the sight of Ennis entering his house?



Please answer anyone? Everyone ?

Um, OK. My answer is, I guess he might have done that. But I think there are other ways to express homophobia than yelling bad names the minute you spot somebody who you think is gay.

However, I do not think Mr. Twist is particularly homophobic. Not only does he not say anything overtly homophobic, but he says things that suggest he was somewhat accepting of his son's sexual orientation.

[Artiste]

Thansk whysoserious!!

Wow, you reveal a lot !! And greatly too !!

Since I never saw before,
may I ask you:

are your female, male, other ??

Please !!

Au revoir,
hugs!

[serious crayons]

Thansk whysoserious!!

Wow, you reveal a lot !! And greatly too !!

Since I never saw before,
may I ask you:

are your female, male, other ??

Hi Artiste! I'm female, but actually you have seen me before. Check out the left side of my post, under the avatar! Like many of us here, I'm observing Heath's birthday with a special Heath-related name. You might want to join in the fun. 

[Artiste]

Merci !

Hugs!

[MsMercury]

Interesting thought that Mr. Twist was disappointed in Jack because he could never commit to taking over the ranch.  I can see that he was disappointed but I still don't think he would have been fond of Jack being gay even if he took over the ranch and made a huge profit out of it. I still think he wouldn't have approved of Jack being gay. I think his homophobia is a product of his generation.

[Artiste]

Thanks MS Mercury!

It's interesting what you say! That could very well be as you say!

Old man Twist, maybe would not have liked Jack as a gay man with Ennis living with him !! However, he seems to accept that Jack was (wanted) to live with Ennis, right??

Isn't that puzzling ??

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Artiste]

So Old Man Twist must have known that Jack was gay ??

[Brown Eyes]

Yes, I think in his comments to Ennis, OMT is trying very hard to let Ennis know that Jack's sexuality was well-understood.  He seems to even be trying to let Ennis know that he (OMT) knows more about certain aspects of Jack's sexuality than Ennis does.  OMT is able to provide Ennis with the new information about the "other fellow"... for example.

I think we're meant to perceive Ennis as being surprised at the fact that Jack mentioned him at home to his mother and OMT... seemingly for many years over the course of their relationship.  Ennis learns that their relationship really wasn't as secret as he throught.

[Artiste]

Merci atz !

You say:


Yes, I think in his comments to Ennis, OMT is trying very hard to let Ennis know that Jack's sexuality was well-understood.  He seems to even be trying to let Ennis know that he (OMT) knows more about certain aspects of Jack's sexuality than Ennis does.  OMT is able to provide Ennis with the new information about the "other fellow"... for example.
............


Atz, may I say that you say that beautifully !

And, so is OMT calling Ennis a fool ?

May I ask,

hugs!

[Front-Ranger]

I am inclined to agree with you, sadly, Artiste after thinking about it. I think OMT was condemning Ennis as a fool.

He was a sad, bitter old man who had lost his farm, his spirit, and, at last, his only son. I think he was consumed with grief and one of the earliest stages of grief is anger, leading on to despair and bitterness.

In fact, now that I think about it, the way OMT acted was  similar to the way I saw a few people react after the death of Heath Ledger. It can bring out the worst in people. I've seen people lash out in a vindictive manner, even hatefully. Grief can change people radically. Hopefully it is temporary.

But through it all, I don't think OMT was homophobic because that would mean that he'd be repulsed by his own son. And I don't think that was the case.

[brokeplex]

I am inclined to agree with you, sadly, Artiste after thinking about it. I think OMT was condemning Ennis as a fool.

He was a sad, bitter old man who had lost his farm, his spirit, and, at last, his only son. I think he was consumed with grief and one of the earliest stages of grief is anger, leading on to despair and bitterness.

In fact, now that I think about it, the way OMT acted was  similar to the way I saw a few people react after the death of Heath Ledger. It can bring out the worst in people. I've seen people lash out in a vindictive manner, even hatefully. Grief can change people radically. Hopefully it is temporary.

But through it all, I don't think OMT was homophobic because that would mean that he'd be repulsed by his own son. And I don't think that was the case.

I am very glad to read what you said. I have always felt that OMT was poignant and sad, not angry. Defensive, not attacking. I noticed that others didn't feel this way, and some seemed to need to see OMT as a terrible homophobic father who victimized and made fun of his son. I took a different view that OMT was deeply disappointed in his son, and regretted never being able to really be close to him.

Also, I saw a subtext in OMT's kitchen dialog with Ennis. I imagined OMT really saying to Ennis: "You loved my son, why didn't you protect him? I loved my son, why couldn't I protect him?" and in the end, all OMT could do is protect Jack's ashes from someone that he now wanted to see as an outsider.

[Front-Ranger]

I imagined OMT really saying to Ennis: "You loved my son, why didn't you protect him? I loved my son, why couldn't I protect him?" and in the end, all OMT could do is protect Jack's ashes from someone that he now wanted to see as an outsider.

Yes, I agree with you OFT. 

[Artiste]

Merci Front-Ranger!

Your post tells brilliantly about human nature, especially after a death !!


Do you think that Mr. Twist talked with his son about homosexuality ?

May I ask,

au revoir,
hugs!

[Artiste]

Merci oilfieldtrash!

Your post does detail brilliantly too Mr. Twist !! May I say.

And may I ask you too:

     Do you think that Mr. Twist talked with his son about homosexuality ?         

Au revoir,
hugs!

[optom3]

I am inclined to agree with you, sadly, Artiste after thinking about it. I think OMT was condemning Ennis as a fool.

He was a sad, bitter old man who had lost his farm, his spirit, and, at last, his only son. I think he was consumed with grief and one of the earliest stages of grief is anger, leading on to despair and bitterness.

In fact, now that I think about it, the way OMT acted was  similar to the way I saw a few people react after the death of Heath Ledger. It can bring out the worst in people. I've seen people lash out in a vindictive manner, even hatefully. Grief can change people radically. Hopefully it is temporary.

But through it all, I don't think OMT was homophobic because that would mean that he'd be repulsed by his own son. And I don't think that was the case.

I have had to rethink this one again.I am inclined to agree that OMT was not homophobic as I had first thought.In fact I am now starting to wonder if he actually blames Ennis for the death of Jack. Maybe that is why he wants to hurt Ennis by mentioning the new man.After all if Ennis had agreed to the "sweet life" with Jack he would still have been alive.Also OMT may have had his ranch in better shape.

So in his mind at the route of all the despair and hardships in his life he sees , Ennis.

This could also explain the ashes,as in you did not want to agree to his wishes when he was alive,why now he is dead would you want to follow his wishes.
He is undoubtedly angry and bitter.I don't for a minute think he was happy about Jacks homosexuality,but I now think maybe he tolerated it.To OMT it may seem a bit like shutting the stable door after the horse has already bolted.


Curious how others here can make you completely rethink things.

[Artiste]

Merci beaucoup optom!

How wonderful your post is... here !



Now, you got me pensive; you say that maybe OMT tolerated Jack's homosexuality !!

Jack's  mother seems OK with Jack's homosexuality, you think maybe so?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[serious crayons]

I am inclined to agree with you, sadly, Artiste after thinking about it. I think OMT was condemning Ennis as a fool.

He was a sad, bitter old man who had lost his farm, his spirit, and, at last, his only son. I think he was consumed with grief and one of the earliest stages of grief is anger, leading on to despair and bitterness.

In fact, now that I think about it, the way OMT acted was  similar to the way I saw a few people react after the death of Heath Ledger. It can bring out the worst in people. I've seen people lash out in a vindictive manner, even hatefully. Grief can change people radically. Hopefully it is temporary.

But through it all, I don't think OMT was homophobic because that would mean that he'd be repulsed by his own son. And I don't think that was the case.

Well put, Front-Ranger.

I am very glad to read what you said. I have always felt that OMT was poignant and sad, not angry. Defensive, not attacking. I noticed that others didn't feel this way, and some seemed to need to see OMT as a terrible homophobic father who victimized and made fun of his son. I took a different view that OMT was deeply disappointed in his son, and regretted never being able to really be close to him.

Also, I saw a subtext in OMT's kitchen dialog with Ennis. I imagined OMT really saying to Ennis: "You loved my son, why didn't you protect him? I loved my son, why couldn't I protect him?" and in the end, all OMT could do is protect Jack's ashes from someone that he now wanted to see as an outsider.

This too, broketrash.

I have had to rethink this one again.I am inclined to agree that OMT was not homophobic as I had first thought.In fact I am now starting to wonder if he actually blames Ennis for the death of Jack. Maybe that is why he wants to hurt Ennis by mentioning the new man.After all if Ennis had agreed to the "sweet life" with Jack he would still have been alive.Also OMT may have had his ranch in better shape.

So in his mind at the route of all the despair and hardships in his life he sees , Ennis.

This could also explain the ashes,as in you did not want to agree to his wishes when he was alive,why now he is dead would you want to follow his wishes.
He is undoubtedly angry and bitter.I don't for a minute think he was happy about Jacks homosexuality,but I now think maybe he tolerated it.To OMT it may seem a bit like shutting the stable door after the horse has already bolted.

This too, optom3.

Curious how others here can make you completely rethink things.

So true.

[optom3]

Merci beaucoup optom!

How wonderful your post is... here !



Now, you got me pensive; you say that maybe OMT tolerated Jack's homosexuality !!

Jack's  mother seems OK with Jack's homosexuality, you think maybe so?

Au revoir,
hugs!

I have as mentioned hd to have a rethink about all this,but I love it a it keeps my brain cells ticking over.

I would say that OMT tolerate Jacks' homosexuality,for whatever reasons,could be that initially it represnted help foe him in licking the farm into shape.Maybe after his death, he realised that any Jack was better than a dead Jack.
I agree with the person who pointed out that as Jack returned home every year,it is unlikely that OMT would have allowed that if he was completely homophobic.
I think maybe there would have been some persuasion/coercion on the part of Mrs Twist.That is such a common role for Mothers to adopt.I saw it with my own mother and now do it with my kids to some extent.We as moms try to pour oil on troubled waters and keep the family ticking along,in whatever shambolic fashion we can.
As for Mrs Twist I think she both accepted and loved her son no less for his sexual persuasion.She probably would have wanted for him not to have been,but that would have been so his life would have been easier.I see no judgement in any of her actions.Just a mother's love.

The majority of moms have an inbuilt radar as regards their children.It is akin to a 6th sense.I cannot explin it,because it just is.My children know I will always love them no matter gay,staright or in between.It makes no difference to me.My husband is of the same opinion thank goodness.
We have been tested so thoroughly by the antics of our oldest,that homosexuality in either of the other 2 would be a walk in the park!!!!!!
I am fairly sure that my middle son may well have leanings in that direction and my only fear is that in this tate he could have a hard time.
If my suspicions prove right,I would advise him to move to a more tolerant state or back to Europe.
The anti gay attitude in Florida has come as quite a shock to me.

[serious crayons]

I agree with the person who pointed out that as Jack returned home every year,it is unlikely that OMT would have allowed that if he was completely homophobic.

Not only that, it's unlikely that Jack would have confided in OMT his plans to leave his wife and bring Ennis (or the ranch neighbor) up to Lightning Flat to live.

[Artiste]

Merci optom !

You say:
     I agree with the person who pointed out that as Jack returned home every year,it is unlikely that OMT would have allowed that if he was completely homophobic.
I think maybe there would have been some persuasion/coercion on the part of Mrs Twist.That is such a common role for Mothers to adopt     
.....

Optom, to me too the role of Mrs. Twist is capital as she is sweet and understanding, and accepting of Jack, and, of course, of Ennis !!

However, did I get a note that she would not have wanted Jack to be a gay man, preferably ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Artiste]

Merci seriouscrayons !

You say:
     Not only that, it's unlikely that Jack would have confided in OMT his plans to leave his wife and bring Ennis (or the ranch neighbor) up to Lightning Flat to live.


     
.......

Seriouscrayons, why do you say unlikely ??

Why not consider likely that Jack had confided such to Mr. Twist and/or Mrs. Twist ??

Au revoir,
hugs!

[optom3]

Merci optom !

You say:
     I agree with the person who pointed out that as Jack returned home every year,it is unlikely that OMT would have allowed that if he was completely homophobic.
I think maybe there would have been some persuasion/coercion on the part of Mrs Twist.That is such a common role for Mothers to adopt     
.....

Optom, to me too the role of Mrs. Twist is capital as she is sweet and understanding, and accepting of Jack, and, of course, of Ennis !!

However, did I get a note that she would not have wanted Jack to be a gay man, preferably ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

Speaking as a mom myself.It is not a prejudice thing.
If the whole world could/would change and become more tolerant to gays,then I would have no preference.

The reason I think Mrs Twist and indeed myself would prefer their children not to be gay, is because no mom wants to see their kids suffer.
We play the nurturing role almost from conception,we do everything we can to keep our kids safe and happy.

Yet if they are gay we know that they will encounter,many things that we would give anything for them not to.
 They will be taunted,ridiculed,in some cases beaten and even murdered.So it is for that reason I would prefer my children not to be gay.

It must have been even worse for Mrs Twist ,in a time and place that was even less enlightened than now.She must have been perpetually worried that her son would be injured or worse murdered.What mother wants to live with that fear.

She would not have loved Jack any less, in fact she may have loved him more,in the way we always tend to protect those who need it most.But none of it helped.I guess her worst fears were realised.I would even go so far as to say she probably thought Jack was murdered for his homosexuality.

I want my children to live free from fear  and to find love. If I could wrap them in cotton wool and protect them from any harm for ever I would. To further clarify,I would not want them to have a partner who was an alcoholic or drug addict either.
What I am really trying to say is I want the perfect life for them.
I know that is not possible.

I just do not want their lives to be any more difficult that they probably will be anyway. Much as I wish it were different,I believe we still live in a very much homophobic world. Some countries worse than others.Indeed even here,some states are worse than others.
If I had  a magic wand I would wave it around and grant tolerance and acceptance of all,but I haven't.

[Artiste]

Merci beaucoup optom !

Your post is so brilliant that I savour it... for humanity!

It would be so great that it would be in a book, and in schools !!

May I say... as it reasons and opens one's heart too !!

Encore merci  !!

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Artiste]

Merci encore optom !

You say:
    The reason I think Mrs Twist and indeed myself would prefer their children not to be gay, is because no mom wants to see their kids suffer.
We play the nurturing role almost from conception,we do everything we can to keep our kids safe and happy.
     
..........

Optom, you do not know that I re-acted badly when years ago one of my younger brothers told me that he is gay !! I oftened wondered about that, since I am a gay man too !!  The only reason, if any, is that I felt that it would be so hard for him, because it was difficult for me ??

Any thought on that ?  I think too that Mrs. Twist helped Mr. Twist accept Jack's homosexuality better !!

Au revoir,
hugs!

[optom3]

Merci encore optom !

You say:
    The reason I think Mrs Twist and indeed myself would prefer their children not to be gay, is because no mom wants to see their kids suffer.
We play the nurturing role almost from conception,we do everything we can to keep our kids safe and happy.
     
..........

Optom, you do not know that I re-acted badly when years ago one of my younger brothers told me that he is gay !! I oftened wondered about that, since I am a gay man too !!  The only reason, if any, is that I felt that it would be so hard for him, because it was difficult for me ??

Any thought on that ?  I think too that Mrs. Twist helped Mr. Twist accept Jack's homosexuality better !!

Au revoir,
hugs!

I agree 100%
we never want to see the ones we love suffer.
It must have been even worse for you, because you had endured it yourself, so you were speaking from the heart and also with experience.
My 1st husband was gay and I watched what he endured. Even in England which is considerably more tolerant.
I certainly think that Mrs Twist would have been instrumental in helping OMT reach some form of acceptance.Mothers always in my experience act as the go between.!!!!!
How many times have I herd myself say,I will speak to your father about it.

Which leads to another point.Am I as a wife and mother, actually helping to perpetuate the myth of the much stricter father,who is less tolerant.When in many cases that is simply not the case.

Yet so many times I act as this sort of intermediary, when in actual fact their father would be no less,  angry/accepting/forgiving/generous than me.

This discussion has really made me open my eyes, very wide, to some of the behaviour patterns, I have adopted.They are the same as my moms before.
By acting as this intermediary, I am by default portraying their father as the strict non tolerant etc etc person he most definitely is not.
I would put money on it that I am not the only mom who does this.

When I think of it, it is like a kind of arrogance. Leave it to me I will sort it out with your father.  Why? is he a monster ,NO. Quite the reverse. I also think it becomes a way of getting as much love from your kids as you can,Almost like bribery.I will make it alright with your dad,therfore you will love me even more.

What a revelation this has been to me. A searchlight has gone on in my brain, never mind a light bulb.
I am going to have a serious think about some of my own behaviour patterns.!!!!!

[serious crayons]

Merci seriouscrayons !

You say:
     Not only that, it's unlikely that Jack would have confided in OMT his plans to leave his wife and bring Ennis (or the ranch neighbor) up to Lightning Flat to live.


     
.......

Seriouscrayons, why do you say unlikely ??

Why not consider likely that Jack had confided such to Mr. Twist and/or Mrs. Twist ??

Oh, I didn't make myself clear. I think it's obvious that he definitely DID confide such to Mr. Twist. My post was in reference to optom3's post, which said that it's unlikely Mr. Twist would allow Jack to return home every year if he were homophobic. So my point was that, not only does Mr. Twist allow Jack to return home, but Jack feels comfortable enough to confide his plans, which imply that he is gay, to his dad, who seemingly took it somewhat in stride.

[Artiste]

Merci optom !

True is what you say... as I think so too !!

When I was living 4 days away, my father came with his hunting buddy. I invited them to use my bed, but they prefered that they slept on the kitchen floor, and as I went in my bedroom, I heard dad say to his pal: my son likes men !! He knew, and he did not know that I had no hint that he did think that I was gay !!

That is one thing that made father and I... get closer together: his acceptance of I being gay !! But I still did not talk to him about it nor afterwards, at no time at all - so are we gay men too afraid or too secretive ??


...........

Like you say, maybe I should act differently... now thinking about it ??

Au revoir,
hugs! So maybe Jack did reveal some things about his gay life to Mr. Twist, his father !! ??

[Artiste]

Merci seriouscrayons !

You say:
          Oh, I didn't make myself clear. I think it's obvious that he definitely DID confide such to Mr. Twist. My post was in reference to optom3's post, which said that it's unlikely Mr. Twist would allow Jack to return home every year if he were homophobic. So my point was that, not only does Mr. Twist allow Jack to return home, but Jack feels comfortable enough to confide his plans, which imply that he is gay, to his dad, who seemingly took it somewhat in stride.


                 
................

Seriouscrayons, Jack confides his plans directly to Mr. Twist, his dad ??

Au revoir,
hugs!  Merci pour tes bonnes nouvelles !!

[serious crayons]

Seriouscrayons, Jack confides his plans directly to Mr. Twist, his dad ??

Yes. Mr. Twist describes Jack's plans in a way that indicates that Jack had confided them directly to his father.

[brokeplex]

Yet if they are gay we know that they will encounter,many things that we would give anything for them not to.
 They will be taunted,ridiculed,in some cases beaten and even murdered.So it is for that reason I would prefer my children not to be gay.

lets think about what you wrote.

just as a fantasy hypothetical : if you had a baby and genetic tests revealed that he or she would likely be gay (and that day may not be very far off), and your OBGYN told you that you could participate in a new almost magical treatment which if used when the child is an infant could change his chromosomes and make him or her probably straight instead of gay.  would you consent to such treatment?

[Artiste]

Merci broketrash !

You do pose a difficult question !

There are maybe many possible answers to that ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[brokeplex]

Merci broketrash !

You do pose a difficult question !

There are maybe many possible answers to that ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

no, there are only three answers:

1) one would change the sexual orientation of one's child

2) one would not change the sexual orientation of one's child

3) one does not know if one would or would not.

[Artiste]

Plus some mds would change the child, without parents consent !!

Right?

[brokeplex]

Plus some mds would change the child, without parents consent !!

Right?

I hope not. I believe that God made us the way we are for a reason, and we should not judge His work. Being gay is a immutable characteristic, just like skin color or eye color, no one has a choice. It is probably genetically related and one day there may be a chromosomal test to determine if a fetus will be gay, will parents use that test to abort gay babies?

[optom3]

lets think about what you wrote.

just as a fantasy hypothetical : if you had a baby and genetic tests revealed that he or she would likely be gay (and that day may not be very far off), and your OBGYN told you that you could participate in a new almost magical treatment which if used when the child is an infant could change his chromosomes and make him or her probably straight instead of gay.  would you consent to such treatment?

That is a very difficult question.If the society we live in had become more tolerant by that stage,then the answer would be no,I would not avail myself of any such treatment.
If it ever became possible then we presumably are talking some time in the future,And I live in hope that one day people will be more accepting.
If society is as non accepting as it is now,I truly do not know the answer.

No mother or indeed father wants their child to suffer in any form for whatever reason.My oldest son is bi polar as most here know.If I could have had a miracle treatment for that which would alter his D.N.A would I have,probably is the answer.He has been bullied from day 1 at school a he is so different.His life is hard,and so is mine dealing with his violent outbursts.
He cannot help it in the same way that homosexuals cannot.However that does not stop a large percentage of the world being cruel.I still say we need to educate people in tolerance and acceptance,not try to change the person who is bing persecuted.
I look to my ex husband who was gay.We are still in regular contact,despite being divorced for nearly 20 years now.He is the kindest,most decent lovely human you could ever hope to know.Even my strict Catholic parents still love him,They exchange Xmas cards each year.There is nothing not to love about him.
However mine and my parents reaction to him was not the norm.When he came out most of his "friends" vanished.
I remember him comming round to see me one evening in tears after a truly hideous incident.He did not deserve the treatment he got.He was and still is worth 1 million of the ignorant thugs who hurt him.
So would I want that to happen to either of my sons, or daughter ,hell no !!! It would break my heart.But then if he/she had been "treated" they would not be the children I know and love.I also know that much as I want to,I cannot protect them from everything.

I think until it actually happens to you,it is impossible to predict how you would react. When I was divorced from my 1st husband,a lot of my friends thought it odd that I did not hate him. Why, he was still the same man I fell in love with.
When I was pregnant with my daughter,I was offered a test for Downs syndrome because I was an old mother at 40.I refused it,because after much discusion with my husband we decided we would keep the baby no matter what the results of the test,so there was no point.
So I am going to sit on the fence here and say,I would probably refuse the test that would put me in the position to have to choose in the first place.I can say that in all honesty because it is exactly what I did with the Downs syndrome test.

[Artiste]

Thanks broketrash!

I like what you say !

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Artiste]

Merci optom !

Be assured that I enjoy too what you say !!

Au revoir,
hugs!   

[serious crayons]

It's too bad we live in a society where homosexuality is treated as a disability, like Down's syndrome or bi-polar disorder. The latter two are problems in and of themselves, with unquestionably negative consequences for those who have them. The former is negative only if viewed that way by society at large; in an accepting culture, it needn't interfere with personal happiness.

Broketrash, I understand why you don't want homosexuality perceived as a "birth defect." But optom-3, I also understand why you would want to protect your children from society's prejudice. The way to put your attitudes in harmony is to change society. And I think it can be changed, and maybe eventually even fixed.

[Artiste]

Merci seriouscrayons !

C'est un sujet difficile, n'est-ce pas ?

It is a difficult suject, isn't it ?

Seriouscrayons, you do bring a challenging post !

Considering if homosexuality is a birth defect, might be too dangerous as a question, since remember that many countries sent willingly homosexuals to Germany and within Germany too gays were murdered, since over 1,000,000 were killed in death camps !!  And Iran to-day lines up young gays men and murdered them in a row ! Etc.!

So by saying that being gay is a defect, then gays can be killed easily just like anyone considered a retard, defective (not being so or so), others types of persons or attribute, etc., was abused and/or killed too in Germany in WW II, remember ?

Not just because I am a gay man and proud to be a human in order to help others as humans and myself, I figure that all humans have birth defects, isn't that so ?

So, all humans should not live ?? I prefer that humanity lives in peace and humans respect others and every human respecting oneself.

Does this make sense to you Seriouscrayons and to all others ??

J'aime toujours tes nouvelles (I always like your news Seriouscrayons),
Au revoir,
hugs!

[Artiste]

I have learned and felt and feels that homosexuality is like music to me and to those who accepts it (being a gay man or woman or not) !!


Mr. Twist accepted Jack, and learned from him !

Mrs. Twist did not diminished her love for her son Jack, because he was a homosexual !!

La belle musique nous aide toutes et tous !!

Au revoir,
hugs!                       Being a homosexual is stimulating: gay openness to life !!

[Front-Ranger]

Florida is anti-gay?? Maybe you're just in the wrong part of Florida! If your son is gay, why doesn't the whole family consider moving?

My son is a teenager, and he doesn't appear to be gay. In fact, he doesn't seem to have much of a libido at all. When I compare teenagers of today with my youth, it seems we parents have it pretty easy. But I am concerned that people are learning to substitute virtual experiences, such as movies, tv, and video games, for real life relationships.

[Artiste]

Being a homosexual, tells moi, oui me, that I am  on Earth to be HAPPY' GAY' HELPING OTHERS AND MYSELF, and not to suffer ONLY !!

That to me, is so for all humans!!

That is why Mr. Twist tries to learn and learns from Jack !!

That is why, oui, Mrs. Twist knows that Jack is a homosexual and a good gay person... who tries to enjoy life at its utmost !!

??

Your thoughts ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Front-Ranger]

That is one thing that made father and I... get closer together: his acceptance of I being gay !! But I still did not talk to him about it nor afterwards, at no time at all - so are we gay men too afraid or too secretive ??

I loved this anecdote about your father, Artiste!! And, you've answered your own question! Definitely yes, gay men are too afraid AND secretive. Granted, you have to be cautious when you're in a bar with a bunch of rednecks, but any other time, why not be yourself? There are very few reasons not to, and there are many many good reasons to be honest and open about who you are...for yourself and for future generations.  Sometimes we just need the right words. Like, lesbians have special jewelry. And in the movie Shelter which I saw recently, when Zach's best friend finds out he's gay, Zach hides himself away from his friend. His friend had to go see Zach as he was just getting off work to tell him nothing had changed, they were still best friends. What a great movie!

One of the things Annie did in her story was explore these words that men can say to each other. The scene at the Siesta Motel was much longer for this reason.

[Artiste]

Merci Front-Ranger !

Your post is interesting!

Indeed gay men and others have to be cautious in many ways !!

What do you think of Mrs. Twist words ?

And, too, Mr. Twist words ?

When Ennis went there... to see them !!

Mrs. and Mrs. Twist were the host to Ennis, and they received well their visitor ??
Au revoir,
hugs!

[Artiste]

I always feel that being gay is to guide, is that so ??

Somehow ?

Mrs. Twist guides Ennis.

Mr. Twist tries to guide Ennis too ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Artiste]

I figure that it is my destiny being a homosexual man !

So why change that?

And why go against it?

It seems to me that both Mr. and Mrs. Twist  accepts Jack being a homosexual... with their love !! ??

And Jack accepts his homosexuality ! ?

Au revoir,
hugs!  If I do not accept my destiny being a gay man, than any other man, straight or other, can not accept themselves, neither !! ??

[serious crayons]

When I compare teenagers of today with my youth, it seems we parents have it pretty easy.

Seriously, F-R? Wow, I have just the opposite opinion. You are a lucky mother! 

But I am concerned that people are learning to substitute virtual experiences, such as movies, tv, and video games, for real life relationships.

... and online message boards?    I know what you mean, though, and I fear the same thing.

[brokeplex]

That is a very difficult question.If the society we live in had become more tolerant by that stage,then the answer would be no,I would not avail myself of any such treatment.
If it ever became possible then we presumably are talking some time in the future,And I live in hope that one day people will be more accepting.
If society is as non accepting as it is now,I truly do not know the answer.

No mother or indeed father wants their child to suffer in any form for whatever reason.My oldest son is bi polar as most here know.If I could have had a miracle treatment for that which would alter his D.N.A would I have,probably is the answer.He has been bullied from day 1 at school a he is so different.His life is hard,and so is mine dealing with his violent outbursts.
He cannot help it in the same way that homosexuals cannot.However that does not stop a large percentage of the world being cruel.I still say we need to educate people in tolerance and acceptance,not try to change the person who is bing persecuted.
I look to my ex husband who was gay.We are still in regular contact,despite being divorced for nearly 20 years now.He is the kindest,most decent lovely human you could ever hope to know.Even my strict Catholic parents still love him,They exchange Xmas cards each year.There is nothing not to love about him.
However mine and my parents reaction to him was not the norm.When he came out most of his "friends" vanished.
I remember him comming round to see me one evening in tears after a truly hideous incident.He did not deserve the treatment he got.He was and still is worth 1 million of the ignorant thugs who hurt him.
So would I want that to happen to either of my sons, or daughter ,hell no !!! It would break my heart.But then if he/she had been "treated" they would not be the children I know and love.I also know that much as I want to,I cannot protect them from everything.

I think until it actually happens to you,it is impossible to predict how you would react. When I was divorced from my 1st husband,a lot of my friends thought it odd that I did not hate him. Why, he was still the same man I fell in love with.
When I was pregnant with my daughter,I was offered a test for Downs syndrome because I was an old mother at 40.I refused it,because after much discusion with my husband we decided we would keep the baby no matter what the results of the test,so there was no point.
So I am going to sit on the fence here and say,I would probably refuse the test that would put me in the position to have to choose in the first place.I can say that in all honesty because it is exactly what I did with the Downs syndrome test.

that is a fair answer and it shows that you have given this issue quite a bit of thought.

I am a believer that God makes us by His will. We are who and what we are because of His wisdom and mercy. Gay people have always been subject to varying amounts of censorship and harassment. Any tiny minority is usually treated differently, and even if the majority community tried with all of its heart and all of its mind to be inclusive and positive in its treatment of gays, we will always be a small minority out of synch in many ways with the majority. micro example: take a typical office full the straights who will have pictures of their wives, or husbands and their children on their desks. The gay man or lesbian in that office will stand out as having the one desk with the one picture of someone of the same sex. A little thing, I know, but indicative of just how very much we stand out in all aspects of our lives from grocery shopping, theater going, POLITICAL CAUCUSING  , car washing, I can go on and on. In the end, I believe that it is God's will for us to carry this burden/opportunity. God gave us, because of our outsider status, a special insight to the world around us, think of all of the artists, composers, writers, and other creative people who were and are gay. Sometime it appears that gays are way out of proportion to our actual population in some of the professions. Why? maybe a special insight?

I think that the compassionate thing to do, is to let nature take its course. A son or daughter who is born gay or lesbian is that way naturally. And in spite of the challenges, they will probably lead an exciting, productive and creative life.

[Artiste]

Merci beaucoup broketrash !

You say:
       I think that the compassionate thing to do, is to let nature take its course. A son or daughter who is born gay or lesbian is that way naturally. And in spite of the challenges, they will probably lead an exciting, productive and creative life. 
 
 
         

..............

Broketrash, may I agree and hope with you that that is so and will be for all gays and lesbians !!

Do you think that Mr. Twist, that it took him so time to accept Jack as an homosexual ?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[optom3]

Florida is anti-gay?? Maybe you're just in the wrong part of Florida! If your son is gay, why doesn't the whole family consider moving?

My son is a teenager, and he doesn't appear to be gay. In fact, he doesn't seem to have much of a libido at all. When I compare teenagers of today with my youth, it seems we parents have it pretty easy. But I am concerned that people are learning to substitute virtual experiences, such as movies, tv, and video games, for real life relationships.

Florida seems to be anti a lot of things.Or maybe it is the kids my oldest son is hanging round with at school.He has over the past year come out with some things which I find deeply offensive.
Not just about gays,but also ethnic minorities,you name it.He did not learn this at home so I can only draw one conclusion.
Maybe I am being unfair in judging Florida it is just I have heard quite a bit of that sort of talk while we have been here.The right wing seem to be anti everything.Some of the talk radio shows are positively scary.
Yet these same people fill the churches every Sunday.!!!!??

We could not move at the moment as the Visa that keeps us here is attached to the business we bought here.Anyway why move,I would prefer to try and convert people to my view.

I do not know how my middle son will eventually turn out,and I dont care.I will love him with all my heart whatever.I just hope that if he is gay,he is not subjected to the sort of foul talk at school,that I have heard my older son come out with.
I am ashamed to the core. of some of the things the oldest has said,and I will not sully a discussion by posting them.As old as he is,I have tried to reason with him.He of all people,with all his problems should be the last person to judge anyone.he should also be more aware of how hurtful that sort of talk is.He has been on the receiving end of some verbal bullying himself.

I hope it is some sort of teenage thing which he grows out of, but until he does he will continue to get the sharp end of my tongue every time I hear it.

That is the same whatever the prejudice,be it racial,religious or sexual.It is all wrong in my book.

[Front-Ranger]

Seriously, F-R? Wow, I have just the opposite opinion. You are a lucky mother! 

... and online message boards?    I know what you mean, though, and I fear the same thing.

True, serious... ( )  There was an article about MySplace today in the newspaper, about how children who have a site should be monitored. About how they might read about <gasp> underage drinking. I have a different view. I got myself a MySpace page and I am friends with my son. So, I can read all his posts and he can read my pitiful 6 posts. I have one other friend on MySpace...my son's tennis buddy LOL! The most scandalous thing I am finding out is that there are quite a few girls out there who are chasing my son in a very aggressive manner. I talked to him about it, and he finds their behavior despicable. A lesson to be learned...my son will not give in to the whims of any of these girls.

[serious crayons]

The most scandalous thing I am finding out is that there are quite a few girls out there who are chasing my son in a very aggressive manner. I talked to him about it, and he finds their behavior despicable.

Same thing is happening to my son, at 13, and he does not find it despicable! 

It's true that if my kids engaged in even half of my own adolescent activities I'd have a heart attack. But kids these days are exposed to so much, they're far more sophisticated than I was. I just have to hope they are extremely sensible. But then, what teenager is, at least all the time?

As for MySpace ... reading the New Yorker piece about that 14-year-old girl who killed herself after her so-called friends taunted her with an invented MySpace boy, I thought of the potential for cruelty and hurt feelings. Middle-schoolers of all generations have a high cruelty potential, only now they can broadcast it to the world.

[optom3]

Seriously, F-R? Wow, I have just the opposite opinion. You are a lucky mother! 

... and online message boards?    I know what you mean, though, and I fear the same thing.

I agree,I wish My oldest was only 1/10th as good as I was at his age. I certainly was not a saint.But my acting out did not start until I was 16.Then granted I gave my parents a hell of a time.
I first caught my oldest smoking and drinking at 11.Which really shocked me.Then having sex at 13 going on 14 shocked me even more.As did the fact that despite all the sex education I had given him,he used no protection.
They act physically older than my generation,but mentally and emotionally,I do not think they are any more mature than I was.They just know a lot more.
Their ability to deal in a mature fashion with that knowledge,seems to be lacking to me.
However they are all different.My 11 year old other son bears no resemblance behaviour wise to his older brother at that age.If anything he is on the immature side.Long may that continue.
As for my space and the like.What goes on there appalls me.We do not let our oldest have a computer in his room,but he is so blatant he does not care what we see.Even down to naked pictures of his girlfriend,at which point I unplugged the modem.Only to have him throw an all time major tantrum.
The girls on my space seem so sexually aggressive,even more so than the boys.That also shocks me.But maybe I am just behind the times.I do not know anymore. I seem to be adrift in a world I do not understand .But maybe that is the case for each new generation of parents.I know my parents were shocked by me at 16.
So we continue to monitor his my space, no time on his own with his new girlfriend,not at our house anyway, and keep on at him about safe sex and protection.Because no matter how much we monitor him,he will find a way if that is his intention!!!!!

[Brown Eyes]

This is such a fascinating thread! 

I'm going way back several pages to quote this little part of one of optom3's posts.

She would not have loved Jack any less, in fact she may have loved him more,in the way we always tend to protect those who need it most.But none of it helped.I guess her worst fears were realised.I would even go so far as to say she probably thought Jack was murdered for his homosexuality.

This is really interesting to me.  We've spent so much time talking amongst ourselves about whether we believe Jack died by accident or was murdered... and we've pondered Ennis's belief system about the murder scenario a lot too.  It seems to be a new angle to think about what OMT and Mrs. Twist believed... Since they're some of the only other characters who have a relatively full picture of what was going on (at least they knew about the relationship with both Ennis and the other fellow).

I think this very well may be correct that the parents also believe that Jack was murdered.  That could seriously effect how they react to Ennis.  Anger and sympathy (i.e. OMT and Mrs. Twist).

[optom3]

This is such a fascinating thread! 

I'm going way back several pages to quote this little part of one of optom3's posts.


This is really interesting to me.  We've spent so much time talking amongst ourselves about whether we believe Jack died by accident or was murdered... and we've pondered Ennis's belief system about the murder scenario a lot too.  It seems to be a new angle to think about what OMT and Mrs. Twist believed... Since their some of the only other characters who have a relatively full picture of what was going on (at least they knew about the relationship with both Ennis and the other fellow).

I think this very well may be correct that the parents also believe that Jack was murdered.  That could seriously effect how they react to Ennis.  Anger and sympathy (i.e. OMT and Mrs. Twist).

I am so glad you picked up on that.I do not think anything beats a mother's intuition.She would I think almost certainly guess that Jack was murdered.But equally because she will have known of her son's love for Ennis, she would be the more sympathetic.She is grieving in the same way Ennis is.It is a mother's more emotionally visible grief.

OMT is also grieving,I think,but his takes the more masculine form of anger.Particularly considering the time and place.He is lashing out in anger at Ennis.He is still grieving,but because of his upbringing,and the fact that he is male,he cannot display his grief in the more conventional way that we would recognise.
I am sure he thinks Jack was murdered as well. I am also fairly sure he blames Ennis,hence the need to wound him.If you had done what my son had wanted he would still be here.
So both Twists grieve,just in different ways.I also think that Mrs Twist is kinder to Ennis,because she probably wants him to visit again.This would give her some continuing,albeit tenuous link to her dead son.
OMT continued link to his son,is to keep the ashes.Because of his anger and blaming of Ennis for Jacks' death,I think he can hardly bear to look at him.Hence his utter contempt.
I am sure it is a male/female thing.When my oldest son was bullied,I just wanted to protect him and keep him safe,while bursting into tears. My husband was just as upset,but his took the form of anger,real rage in fact.He wanted to do serious harm to the bully.
Anyway those are my thoughts on the matter.

[Artiste]

Wow, optom, you say:
    It is a mother's more emotionally visible grief.

OMT is also grieving,I think,but his takes the more masculine form of anger.       
............

So, there are differences in grieving between females and males ??

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Artiste]

Atz, what you say display a light like optom did:
     I think this very well may be correct that the parents also believe that Jack was murdered.  That could seriously effect how they react to Ennis.  Anger and sympathy (i.e. OMT and Mrs. Twist).


       
...........

I do not know why anyone would think that jack was NOT murdered !!  Why think so ??

Au revoir, hugs! It is obvious by the story, that gay murders do happen, right ??

[Front-Ranger]

So, there are differences in grieving between females and males ??

Au revoir,
hugs!

Internally, they are similar, but society teaches boys to hide away their feelings.

Speaking of that, it seems like OMT and Ma Twist are the opposite of what one would expect. OMT's bitter, angry feelings seethe on the surface, while Ma Twist hides her feelings away, clutching at her neck to keep them down, and closeting them, figuratively and literally.