Serious Discussions about Life

[injest]

I will respectfully disagree, Jess.

Name one good thing that has been created or maintained by cruelty or meanness. I think it is possibly because you view the power to destroy as being more powerful than the power to create. If cruelty and meanness always wins then nothing would exist. Everything would be destroyed or subverted to a hostile franchise. And this, we know is not always the case. There are educational systems that seek to create a critically thinking individual rather than a automaton of industry, and these could not have been created or facilitated through cruelty. Indeed it would seem that cruelty-sponsored educational systems would undermine the individual to the point of extreme debasing. Are there some educational systems like this? Yes, of course. But generally such educational systems are eventually torn down and replaced with more caring and kind educational systems that are in favor of teaching the individual self-empowerment.

Political systems are sometimes created or facilitated through cruelty. But these political systems destroy individual rights, undermine economic independence, and enforce slavery upon their peoples. They kill, maim, brutalize and terrorize their citizens. But generally such political systems are eventually torn down and replaced with more caring and kind political systems that are in favor of helping the individual to reclaim his or her individual rights, funding private enterprise and enabling the independent growth thereof, and releasing their peoples from the tyranny of debt.

Religious systems are sometimes created or facilitated through cruelty. They dominate the masses by thought control, insist upon dogmatic principles and terrorize those whom express otherwise. But generally, such religious systems are eventually town down and replaced with more caring and kind religious systems that are in favor of embracing changes in thought and cognitive diversity, are willing to free those that they can from dogmatic ritual and embrace the discovery of true spirituality in the face of hardships, and otherwise look forward to the engagement of the human mind in the complexity of its soul.

There are cruel systems in place throughout the world, but they are not "winning", and if they were, I would be questioning what exactly it is that they were winning. For the most part such systems are like cruel individuals, they are consumed by the negativity that broils within them and have less and less interest in the genuine goodness of man. Sometimes we forget our spiritual nature, but that does not mean that the spiritual nature is not present, or that it is not still acting on our behalf.

I can remember a story where a Buddhist would not leave his meditation spot, even when the rest of the village was fleeing from a warlord known for his cruelty. When the warlord's forces marched into the village, he remained where he was, quietly meditating in the lotus position. When the warlord thundered in himself on the back of a huge horse, he remained where he was, quietly meditating in the lotus position. The warlord did not like this monk that refused to move in the face of his power. He drew out his spear and held it to the monk's throat.

"Do you not realize that I can pierce your body with this spear and kill you, making all your meditations meaningless?"

The monk looked up peacefully and replied.

"Do you not realize that I can let you pierce my body with your spear and make all your killing meaningless?"

The warlord took his forces and left the village.

I read a story once about what would have happened in India if Gandi had been facing the Nazi warlords....for the story changes if the opponent..the warlord didnt stop to talk. In the story I read the protestors were killed and then every tenth person in the village died with them....after a while the protestors stopped protesting to protect the innocent.

Have you ever read 1984?

[injest]

I hope I don't come across as disrespectful. Or offensive, Scott and Daniel....just trying to wrestle my head around things....

it is not as easy for me...just like any muscle your brain gets lazy when you don't use it...

[Daniel]

Yes, I have read 1984, and I think it is important for every person to mentally explore every cruelty his mind is capable of conceiving. As a result of this mental exploration, we can often come up with ways to fight the oppressive cruelty of others. The main source for democracy is of course information and education in the face of misinformation and propaganda. If you can remember V for Vendetta, an informed populace is the worst enemy of the government.

If you want to get into governmental conspiracies, I have a slew of videos on my thread Strange Connections, most of them from a film called "Zeitgeist", unless youtube's removed them again.

[Brokeback_Dev]

Icky.  I am staying out of this conversation.  All I can say is those poor souls, from Matthew, to the holocaust victims (some of which I will probably find in my heritage), to the 5 Little kids in the back of that car as it went down into the lake.

[injest]

Icky.  I am staying out of this conversation.  All I can say is those poor souls, from Matthew, to the holocaust victims (some of which I will probably find in my heritage), to the 5 Little kids in the back of that car as it went down into the lake.

oh fine then! Leave me in here all alone with these two brainiacs!! I need some backup here!!

 

[injest]

An old Jewish man approaches the police in his town. "There is a new man come to town. I knew him in the death camps. He was a guard there. He killed many people and raped women."

The police look in disgust upon the old Jew. "Look! He is being sweet and nice...live and let live. Besides you have no proof!"

so the old Jew goes to the paper..."There is a man in town. He is a murderer and a rapist. I have seen it with my own eyes! I have lived here for thirty years, you know me! I do not go about making these charges lightly!"

The paper runs an article about the old Jew losing his mind and making up stories.

so the old Jew goes to the religious leaders of his community..."There is a Nazi death camp guard here...he has fed live children into the ovens at Aushwitz! Here are two more witnesses to his crimes!"

"Elder, we must learn to forgive and forget! Everyone starts here with a clean slate. As long as he behaves HERE then his past is immaterial"

A man escapes from Buchenwald, he flees to a town in northern France...tells his story to the people of the horrors he has seen. Their response?

"We don't want to hear it. It doesn't affect us."

The Nazis arrive and begin transporting people away in cattle cars..."We dont want to hear it....we must show love. THAT will stop them" and they

This is why I think evil triumphs. There are evil people who enjoy destruction and causing pain...and there are an awful lot of people who want to live their lifes looking the other way as long as they aren't suffering. As long as it doesn't cost them anything.

To be silent in the face of evil is to give it power...

that is why child molesters rack up HUGE numbers of victims..."SHHHHHH! dont talk about it! It doesn't affect me..."

[moremojo]

I don't understand your reasoning, Scott. From what you have written here, I am getting that you don't think other people's lifes matter. I am sure that Susan's children weren't having a lot of fun as the cold dark water engulfed them.

Are you saying that there is no morality? That everything is acceptable on some level I am not understanding? So tying Matthew to the fence was not (on this cosmic level) an evil, cruel thing? and in fact he didn't suffer? or that his suffering doesn't matter?

What I am trying to suggest with these words is that morality isn't the whole picture. In the realm of the Transcendent, I believe there is no moral polarity--Good versus Evil will not have the same meaning it does for us humans in this contextual field called life/earth. This is going to sound amazing to many, and quite possibly cruel to many others, but I believe that we create our own reality/lives. Susan Smith's children and the victims of the Holocaust created their destiny, on a Soul level, because they wanted to experience those experiences. To be clearer, their Souls wished to have these experiences, even if their conscious Minds had no recollection of this.

I can't prove any of this, this is just a matter of personal belief to me. I believe that nothing is an accident; everything happens for a reason. Furthermore, I believe that we create our reality, from a Soul level, for the sheer joy of experiencing experience--God gets to know God in this way. This is a very Eastern concept--that of the universe being lila, God's Divine Game or Play. In this sense, life very much matters, but life transcends our understanding of it. Susan Smith's children did not die in that dark lake--their bodies did. They themselves, the essences of who they are, endure still--they are eternal, existing before they manifested as Susan Smith's children and enduring beyond the demise of those identities. We transcend our earthly identities--we are not our earthly identities.

Some key words for these concepts--monism; Abhinavagupta; Kashmir Saivism; lila. I find an "austere compassion" in these systems of belief. Many find them hard and unappealing, but the Truth need not be comforting, at least not in an ordinary sense. I value Truth over Comfort.

Hope this helps in understanding where I'm coming from. I may sound harsh in this, but I think I'm actually offering another way of looking at things, a way that offers freedom from illusion and needless suffering.

Peace,
From the one playing as Scott

[moremojo]

I'd like to add a little more clarification on the subject of suffering that you addressed, Jess. Do I believe that people suffer? Absolutely--the evidence is all around us. Do I believe that people deserve to suffer? No, not at all, but "deserve" is a tendentious and misleading term in this context. I posit that people (or, more accurately, their Souls) choose to have the experience of "suffering", much as an actor might choose to undertake the role of a misunderstood, troubled, or tortured character in a play. The play's the thing! If one sees experience as a kind of play-acting, one can see things in a whole new Light.

What is the appropriate response to suffering? Choose from the enormous emotional repertoire at hand: If You are choosing to experience Yourself as a merciful person, Love and Compassion would be excellent responses. If the One is opting to experience the mode of Selfishness, Apathy would be an apposite choice. The possibilities and nuances are virtually limitless.

So what do You/We choose? This is the crux of free will, for without the capacity or ability to choose between "Good" and "Evil", the play becomes devoid of Meaning. We invest the Game with Meaning with our own choices within the contextual field. This may well be precisely why "Good" and "Evil" were created, to enable the Divine Players to create a Meaningful Story. But the Story isn't the end all and be all of Reality. And that is part of the great Mystery yet unfolding.

[ifyoucantfixit]

       I am sorry scott but I feel I must put up a different perspective here.
   I think you are espousing a certain belief system.  It is the same as any other religion, and you are
more than entitiled to it.  However saying that.  Not all people do feel that way and have those
particular belief systems.  That doesnt mean that other peoples perpectivei,,,isnt,,,,just as valid
and true. 
    How about the people that dont believe in the hearafter.  That dont have your faith in the common joining of the souls in the afterdeath terms....Are they doomed to just feel that they
are unequal.  Just as any other group of minoritys.

[Daniel]

Before we start having a knock-down, throw-out argument... lets slow down and think about what we're trying to do here. This is a thread about the serious discussions of life, so of course we're not going to be seeing eye to eye. The point is to bounce ideas off of one another, not in order to come to a conclusion, but just to experience a multitude of ideas that we might be able to use to form our own ideas about what the truth of the matter might be. If either one of us is coming down more authoritative than we meant to, I believe I can apologize for both of us.

But we have thought of these serious things before; that is why we have formed these opinions and why they are so strong in our own beings. So as long as we're on that same page... that is to say that we are all on separate pages, for the most part, we will be alright. Scott and I might even be in the same chapter, but we're not going to gang up on you and force you to see it our way. Serious discussions about life seems to be, at least where I was raised, a mostly male-dominated event... and my brother occasionally despairs that women cannot philosophize. I pointed out to him that that was overgeneralization and certainly not true of all women.  But he seems to also think that the point of philosophization is consensus... that I am almost certain is not the case... Philosophizing, or participating in serious discussions of life, gives us an opportunity to challenge our own beliefs about how the world is so, and to collect our thoughts and feelings about a particular subject so we can know where we as individuals stand.

As long as we can participate in this discussion with this knowledge intact, everything will be okay, and there won't be any need for anyone to apologize for their own personal viewpoints. Of course, it will be natural and indeed perhaps even necessary for each participant to stand by his or her own argument. And if anyone decides to change their views on a particular subject due to another person's argument, that is an internal change within that person and no one has "won" anything.  This is not a battle to be won, but rather a game to be played.  We are interested in seeing where all the ideas can take us, not in acknowledging one victor.

Anyway, that is my little blurb for today. I certainly didn't want to sound like I was coming down hard on anyone, but now that I look up at it, it does feel like I'm berating someone... I'm not trying to, and I don't know who exactly I might be berating... so enough of that thinking. I just wanted to remind everyone to lighten up... we are all in the great game of life, and where we are on the board does not mean that we are further along or back than anyone else.