Author Topic: Serious Discussions about Life  (Read 24409 times)

moremojo

  • Guest
Re: Serious Discussions about Life
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2007, 10:21:29 am »
Scott,

If I were to subscribe to it....I would be absolved of all 'sin' or crimes because the 'victims' wanted to be victims. So how can you justify putting anyone in jail?

If I believed that other people that are in worse circumstances than I am in CHOOSE their circumstance then what right have I got to aid them? In fact if I use and abuse them I am being helpful....since it is in fact what they wanted. A step further down the road you lay out....If I abuse WORSE then I am hastening them on their fun journey. So dont' just rape....mutilate! I am doing what she wants.

Your philosophy seems too close to the patriarchal standard we have just pulled ourselves away from.

No, nothing to do with patriarchy here. You ask some very cogent questions that I still grapple with. If we will our destinies into being, should we never appeal to a sense of morality, seeing morality as a relative and unstable thing that doesn't even hold up in the mirror of Eternity? I don't think this is at all the most constructive approach we can take.

I think morality is here precisely so we can engage one another in a moral sense. Morality helps us choose who we want to be in a particular moment. And morality is measured, I think, by the degree of joy or suffering that we see around us. Something that causes the most pleasure to the most people, or alternatively something that causes the least harm to the least number of people, can be seen as Good. Conversely, something that does the most harm to the greatest number of people may be defined as Bad or Evil. By knowing the difference between Good and Evil, we are better able to craft our path, our destiny to a greater degree of nuance and refinement, just as the painter who can choose between this color and that color has a greater choice about what kind of picture she wants to create.

Should we never grieve? Should we never feel angry? Should we never seek to punish the transgressor and protect the victim? No, not at all. We should feel our feelings...that's precisely why we have them. We are in this contextual field for a reason, and that is to experience...ALL of It. Experience sadness, loss, love, joy, anger, quiescence, resignation...the whole spectrum of human feeling. Yes, send someone to jail who transgresses your law...if they end up there, their Soul was calling them to that experience, just as your Soul is calling you into the experience of Jailer. But when the jail has crumbled to dust, along with the laws that put it up in the first place, remember that Prisoner and Jailer were merely roles that you played...they do not define Who You Really Are.

Do keep in mind that I am only expounding my own speculations here. I am not the repository of all the answers. But the philosophy I present here is one that I find both interesting and personally appealing. You are free to consider it and reject it as you see fit. But I wish to emphasize that this approach is not patriarchal in the least...I find the Judeo-Christian tradition, with its emphasis on sin and retribution, much more deserving of that appellation.

moremojo

  • Guest
Re: Serious Discussions about Life
« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2007, 01:07:21 pm »
I have to say that, upon reflection, I think my reasons for citing the Judeo-Christian tradition as patriarchal had nothing to do with logical reasoning. I do believe that the Judeo-Christian tradition is imbued with patriarchal values, but its emphasis on sin and retribution (with the added nuance, within the Christian religion, of redemption) has nothing to do with this. The patriarchal values of this tradition are reflected in its myths and in the structure of its organized religions.

moremojo

  • Guest
Re: Serious Discussions about Life
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2007, 01:26:08 pm »
One very important element within my attempts to explicate in this thread the monistic flavor of Kashmir Saivism (as I understand it) that I've neglected is the emphasis within this religion on recognition. Succinctly, this tradition states that God and the individual Consciousness are One and the Same (ergo, we create all that we experience, for God, the creative agent of the universe, is absolutely identical with Us), and that the key to enlightenment is the recognition and direct experience of this Reality.

How can this recognition be attained? In any number of ways. Abhinavagupta, the great synthesizer of Kashmir Saivism, advocated ritual behavior that would shock the participant into such awareness. Many of these rituals were deliberately devised to transgress the taboos of his particular culture (with its empasis on ritual purity), to remind the participant that God is within all things, and that there is nothing that is not holy. But there are as many paths to recognition as there are human beings to experience it. Meeting an old friend is one possible portal into this experience, as is the aesthetic experience of appreciating a work of art, music, or literature. Abhinavagupta was a compassionate figure (in a similar way, to my mind, as Lucretius was) and sought to free his fellow beings from the bondage of illusion, even though his methods might seem shocking or scandalous. The sense of heartlessness that I know many must see in my comments in this thread only seem so because they go against the "bad faith" that our culture has instilled in us. As Gangaji once said, "Love is ruthless." Love takes no prisoners...because Love is Free! It is in grappling with such apparent paradox that we begin to approach Divine Truth.

Offline Daniel

  • Counsellor
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,139
  • I lost myself to him.
Re: Serious Discussions about Life
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2007, 02:12:19 pm »
Scott, while I can appreciate your knowledge and understanding of spirituality, I don't think these discussions were ever meant to be this... heavy. If it becomes too heavy, it becomes less possible for others to engage in it, since they might be confused or not as well versed in religious and spiritual philosophies than we might be... Let's see if we can keep it a little lighter so that everyone can participate, if we can.
Why do we consume what we consume?
Why do we believe what we believe?
Why do we accept what we accept?
You have a body, a mind, and a soul.... You have a responsibility.

Offline ifyoucantfixit

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,049
Re: Serious Discussions about Life
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2007, 03:14:12 pm »


        I find these kinds of activities, somewhat meandering...It is so much like free associating.
You can feel and think whatever you like to do..Its all ok...But at the risk of sounding way too
simplifying,,what does it do for the regular man in the end...
        It is over so many peoples head, and does it serve any purpose other than to the one doing the espousing...
       I personally would like to see something that would encompass the greater majority of
people and let them understand ,,, and participate....JMO
          Ok maybe that makes me stupid, i will own that.



     Beautiful mind

Offline Daniel

  • Counsellor
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,139
  • I lost myself to him.
Re: Serious Discussions about Life
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2007, 03:29:45 pm »
No, it doesn't make you stupid.... :)

A discussion should be that, a discussion... not a lecture. Lectures are all very well and good when you're ready to completely listen and try to learn about another person's perspective without entering your own views into the equation at the time. Discussions are about bouncing ideas off of each other, addressing expressed concerns, and just allowing a beautiful flow of information that creates dialogue.

Why do we consume what we consume?
Why do we believe what we believe?
Why do we accept what we accept?
You have a body, a mind, and a soul.... You have a responsibility.

injest

  • Guest
Re: Serious Discussions about Life
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2007, 06:38:21 pm »
from what I understand Scott you are talking about a form of reincarnation. That we live lifes over and over. But my understanding of reincarnation is that you live a life that 'corrects' the wrongs you did in the previous one. That we as spiritual beings are on a path toward being more God like...but that we stumble and have to keep reliving to learn lessons...what those lessons are, I am not aware of. but this to me seems more logical (and more attractive) than to think we are choosing based on whims instead. (and whims may be the wrong word...)

I am not familiar with the names you mentioned...links, if any, might be helpful.


moremojo

  • Guest
Re: Serious Discussions about Life
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2007, 06:54:23 pm »
Yes, reincarnation is a central component of the belief system I'm describing. But bear in mind that traditionally, in the Eastern religions in which it is featured, reincarnation is not a "good" thing. The cycle of birth and rebirth locks one into a round of suffering from which the soul hopes to escape. Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism (Kashmir Saivism is a Hindu sect) all offer strategies by which to escape the wheel of transmigration. Enlightenment is a key element usually in freeing oneself from this cycle.

My own take on reincarnation is that there is no particular program of betterment, or evolution that is being played out. The Soul has nothing to learn, as it contains Everything within Itself. Experience rather than knowledge per se is what is being pursued. This may be akin to a whim, but it is the Grandest Whim Ever Conceived. It is God seeing God through the length and breadth of Space-Time and beyond into Eternity. I hasten to affirm that this is my own particular take on this issue, and is not necessarily illustrative of the tenets of Kashmir Saivism or any other religion.

There seems to be very little online pertaining to Kashmir Saivism or Abhinavagupta. I'll search around and post (or PM you) any requisite links as I find them.

You might be interested in studying Buddhism. I am not an expert by any means on the Buddhist tradition, but a basic concept of the religion is that Desire is the root of all suffering, and that by detaching ourselves from Desire we can free ourselves from suffering. In a system such as this, one could observe that Mean Always Wins and still be free from suffering. It's seemingly paradoxical, yet possible.

moremojo

  • Guest
Re: Serious Discussions about Life
« Reply #48 on: October 10, 2007, 07:08:12 pm »
Yes, Jess, women are the mothers of the human race. None of us would be here without women. I have pondered on the reality that the first body we idolize, regardless of who we are (be it male or female, gay or straight or any permutation in between), is a woman's body. Woman is our first intimation of the Divine--it is only later that so many of us have it drummed into our heads that God is Father, when we so naturally apprehended from the beginning that it was the Goddess who cared for us.

While it is true (and true for the very reasons you point out) that there are fewer women famous for their philosophizing than men, it does not follow that women actually philosophize less. They just haven't written down their thoughts as extensively (for various reasons), or have not had access to their writings being preserved, promoted, and/or published. The humblest, meekest person can be the repository of enormous wisdom. Many, many women throughout history have been sages, healers, teachers, artists, and priests. The fact that many (most) of their names have been forgotten does not diminish the immense importance they have had. Remember the saying that behind every great man is a great woman? Well, I think that's true, but it's also self-evident that a woman is behind every single human being who ever lived!

 :D

injest

  • Guest
Re: Serious Discussions about Life
« Reply #49 on: October 10, 2007, 07:15:26 pm »
Mary Renault got me started looking at ancient Greece.

one of the things that fascinate me is that period of time when civilization moved from worshipping the mother earth to worshipping the sky gods...

and interesting to see how men have held onto that fear of women's power.