Author Topic: Serious Discussions about Life  (Read 24570 times)

Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: Serious Discussions about Life
« Reply #50 on: October 10, 2007, 08:32:44 pm »



               I too hope that we can have a point of agreement here.  Not make it a place where there is a very institutionalized type of  opposition.  I hope that women vs men is not going to become the core issue.  I like and respect men and women..I hope that we can use that as a
common ground and then take the phylosophical discussion forward, without those kinds of
name callings and separating thoughts...
               There are ideas that the soul can relate to..Men and women be damned.....



     Beautiful mind

injest

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Re: Serious Discussions about Life
« Reply #51 on: October 10, 2007, 09:03:17 pm »
agreed.

 ;)


moremojo

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Re: Serious Discussions about Life
« Reply #52 on: October 11, 2007, 10:06:08 am »
I asked my friend Keith, who introduced me to Abhinavagupta and Kashmir Saivism, and who has remained my primary mentor in this tradition, to examine my replies in this thread to see if I misrepresented anything here. Here is his electronic message in response to me (shared here with his explicit permission), which I find very interesting and informative, and which explicates this religion much more fully and insightfully than I am able:
 
Dear Scott

I found your comments insightful and largely misunderstood by those who took issue with them.  I will concede that it is very difficult to get out of the monotheistic perspective in which a fatherly deity is held to sit in judgment over all creation.  We’re entirely too accustomed to a universe of right and wrong, with reward for virtue and punishments for vice distributed by an almighty overlord. Of course, we all assume that the actions for which we are being rewarded or punished are those that we see as virtues and vices, respectively.  The gods help us if we’re wrong!
     There are two things I would note about your comments on Kashmir Shaivism. 
     The first of these is your characterization of the tradition as “Hindu.”  This isn’t really a mistake.  I just want to point out that the term is modern and doesn’t reflect any concept in pre-modern India.  It has, of course, been accepted by modern Indians, however, and use of the term can be helpful for people to locate the tradition.
     The second thing is the idea that we each have a soul.  For one thing, I hate to use the term “soul” for anything in ancient Indian religions (modern Indian religions aren’t so much a problem).  If we’re talking about a self, however, there isn’t a multiplicity of selves.  There’s just one self.
     I’m afraid I probably won’t really be able to explain this clearly in just a few words, but I will try.  The ultimate reality is simply consciousness, so we can look at things as working on the ultimate level in much the same way that our own cognitions work.  Now, within a given cognition you can see two aspects, the seer and the seen (the subject (the producer of the cognition) and the object).  Our perception of the ordinary world occurs when the seer deliberately identifies itself with particular objects (namely, the mental faculties), and sees everything else as other than itself.  In other words, although all objects exist within the universal self, this ultimate self limits itself by identifying itself with particular objects, by thinking that it is these objects only, and by, conversely, coming to think that all other objects are other than its self.  The universe so becomes divided into “me” and “not-me.”  What we ordinarily call the self is, thus, just an agglomeration of those objects the self has chosen to identify with.  For example, by identifying with a certain mind, certain sensory faculties, a certain body, etc., and by thinking that all other objects are not itself, the ultimate self becomes “Scott.”     
     How about this?  Imagine a man.  Imagine the man walking.  This imaginary man is an object, a thing you’ve just created, but it is not something different from yourself.  Now, spend some time developing this man.  Picture his life and his adventures.  If you concentrate on them enough you can get so wrapped up in them that they seem real.  You can, briefly, forget who you are and think that you’re the imaginary creation you’ve conjured up.  That’s something like what’s going on.  The only difference is that the one self is portraying every role in the universe simultaneously, from the humblest ant to the wisest sage.
     As for morality, look at it this way:  In a play, there are actors and the characters they portray.  You can see the characters behaving immorally without thinking that the actors are doing anything wrong.  The actors choose to be in the play, even when portraying those who suffer or cause others to suffer.  If we are just the characters, however, we don’t generally realize we’re in the play.  We’re stuck in the universe of duality.  Then, in that case, there is morality.
     I’ll admit Abhinavagupta doesn’t have much to say about morality, but morality isn’t really a topic of his philosophy.  I’m inclined to say that, were he asked about morality, he’d refer his questioner to a book by a Mimamsaka (Kumarila, for example).  In the same way, I might refer you to something by Mill. 
     From the ultimate perspective, morality is meaningless.  It’s just a mental construction, a work of the imagination.  In the world we live in, it’s not.  There cannot be a question of morality without two people being involved.  In reality, there is only one self, so there cannot be morality.  In the world we live in, however, there are a multiplicity of selves, so, on this level, there can be morality.  Of course, this morality is just something we make up.         
     That said, transcending morality doesn’t mean becoming immoral.  This isn’t Christianity.  There is no separate god in heaven looking down and proclaiming some code that must be followed and torturing those that don’t comply.  The god above is just yourself, and that self is the same self that is every other person’s self.  If anything, this perspective should incline one towards compassion, not cruelty.   
      There is only the Goddess who plays at being us all.  So, if Kashmir Shaivism inclines us towards any position, it is not being cruel to others, but a realization that every other person is just yourself.  You are the Goddess, and so is the person you hate, the man who cut you off on the road, the woman who insulted you in the office, the dog who barked at you, etc.  Instead of hating them as enemies, you should realize that they are the same person you are.  It’s only your forgetfulness, your amnesia, if you will, that keeps you from knowing your identity with them.  If you realize this, you CANNOT hate them.  After all, you can only despise them as enemies when you think that they are other than yourself.
The ultimate reality transcends divisions and is pure joy. 
Sincerely,
Keith
PS  I hope this has been helpful.

moremojo

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Re: Serious Discussions about Life
« Reply #53 on: October 11, 2007, 12:58:58 pm »
Here is an addendum to my friend Keith's explication/commentary that he just sent me; he invited me to share it also if I chose to do so:

Dear Scott,
I promised you an addendum to my earlier comments, so here it is.
     Mostly, I just wanted to remark on your description of Kashmir Shaivism as an “austere companion.”  Of course, your perspectives are neither more right nor more wrong than are mine, but I still wanted to give you my two cents about this.  Yes, I grant that there is a harsh element in the tradition.  In fact, its authors do describe it as being made for heroes (viirya).  It’s not for the ordinary person.  Moreover, there are certainly some disturbing practices involved.  They are, of course, deliberately disturbing, but they are meant to shake us out of our complacency so that we can see things in a new way. 
      That said, remember, it’s a religion where the entire universe is seen as art.  The experience of the aesthete and the experience of the enlightened are virtually identical.  The latter is just more complete.  There is a joyousness in the tradition.  Think of it this way:  when you’re immersed in a movie or a painting, when you’re overcome with love, you’re coming very close to enlightenment.  I know of no other religion that finds salvation in art, sex, wine, and laughter. 
     Perhaps, however, you are referring to your own connection to the fatherly god of Christianity.  If so, there is little I can say.  There is devotionalism of a sort in Kashmir Shaivism, but it’s nothing like what’s in Christianity.  Of course, I don’t find God the Father at all appealing, personally.  I do like the idea of god as lover, but this is not an idea found much in the West.  I am aware of Theresa of Avila and her ilk, but their erotic religiosity seems to consist primarily of the sick fantasies of oversexed celibates.  They don’t appeal to me.  I find the healthy physicality of the worship of Krishna, for example, to be far more attractive.  That, however, is just my perspective.  I do not mean to demean anyone else’s viewpoint.   If you find viewing the ultimate as a fatherly god appealing, then that’s as valid a view as is mine.  It’s just not one that has emotional resonance for me.
     Lastly, I want to amend the last sentence of my email.  I wrote, “The ultimate reality transcends divisions and is pure joy.” However, in fact, while the ultimate reality does transcend divisions, it, simultaneously, includes those divisions within itself.  The highest truth is not completely transcendent (as it is in Christianity).  It is both transcendent and immanent.
Yours,
Keith
PS  In case you do want to share this epistle, feel free to do so.

moremojo

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Re: Serious Discussions about Life
« Reply #54 on: October 11, 2007, 04:13:11 pm »
Here is the latest exchange between Keith and myself regarding the subject of Kashmir Saivism:

Dear Keith,

Thank you for that interesting addendum. It does not surprise me to learn that the tradition is oriented towards the heroic personality. There is a grandeur in Kashmir Saivism that, frankly, I find a little frightening emotionally, though I do find it very appealing intellectually. There is just something inside of me that feels the desire to appeal to something outside of myself, though I'm aware that Abhinavagupta would have said that this "outsideness" was just illusory. But in my vulnerable moods, this devotional impulse feels very natural.

The suggestion that there is beauty in all things is truly revolutionary. The invitation to regard all creation as an aesthetic experience is one that many would resist (I myself resist it at various times). But I think there is truth in this message, and the shockingness of the invitation (in certain contexts, at least) is what I hint at when I invoke the word 'austere'. Lucretius in his Nature of Things offers a compassion that is paradoxically also austere, and I find some of this same flavor in Abhinavagupta's stance.

This all makes for very interesting discussion. Thank you for your replies, and for allowing me to grace our forum with them.

Until later,
Scott


Dear Scott,
 I hope that I am not annoying you, but I have one further addendum to my earlier comments.  It occurred to me that your readers might be interpreting “Shaivism” as meaning “the worship of Shiva” just as “Christianity” means “the worship of Christ.”  This, however, is not the meaning of the word.  To be a “Shaiva” is to be a follower of a scripture taught by Shiva, just as to be a Buddhist is to be a follower of a scripture taught by the Buddha.  One should not worship the Buddha and one should not worship Shiva.  In fact, in Kashmir Shaivism, while the ultimate is not really different from oneself (and characterizations of it as having a particular name or form are given only to get the ignorant to behave properly), the highest reality is anthropomorphized not as the god “Shiva” but as the goddess “Kaalasankarshinii” or “Maatrsadbhaava” (i.e., Kali). 
     One last note, when I objected to your phrase “austere companion,” my problem was with the word “austere.”  There is nothing austere about Kashmir Shaivism.  It is the most sensuous religion of which I am aware.  Reading your last response to mine, I do, however, understand what you mean.   It is a “hard” religion, not a soothing one.  I, therefore, retract my objection.  I know what you mean. 
Yours,
Keith

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Re: Serious Discussions about Life
« Reply #55 on: October 11, 2007, 04:21:51 pm »
Hmmm, when he was talking about it being an "austere" religion vs. sensuousness, that reminded me of Brokeback Mountain, which is austere and sensuous at the same time!
"chewing gum and duct tape"

injest

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Re: Serious Discussions about Life
« Reply #56 on: October 12, 2007, 05:53:06 pm »
so, Scott, if we are just one being then other people do not really exist. There is no future or past?

It seems to lack purpose.

I like what I have learned of the Native Americans traditions...and I am not anywhere NEAR an expert on them...but they seem more in touch with what I 'feel'. This belonging to one another and to nature.

but I can't make that leap that other people are just figments of my imagination.

moremojo

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Re: Serious Discussions about Life
« Reply #57 on: October 12, 2007, 06:06:12 pm »
Well, as I understand it, no one is a figment of another's imagination. If anything, everyone would be a figment of the One Imagination. As there is only One Self, you and I are just different projections of that Self having a little discussion because the Self is deriving some kind of joy from it. Sounds pretty neat to me.

But of course different spiritual paths or schools will appeal to different people in different ways. I too find much to admire in many of the Native American traditions. In the Conversations with God series, God tells Neale that there is much wisdom in the Native American traditions, and intimates that many of these cultures were exemplars of spiritual human communities before they were wiped out by the European conquerors.

I have a great book at home called The Sacred Tree that explicates a holistic Native American approach to spirituality utilizing the ancient symbol of the Medicine Wheel. I can look up the publication info on this book and give it to you...I'd highly recommend this wonderful illustrated book to anyone interested in spirituality and Native American cultures.

injest

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Re: Serious Discussions about Life
« Reply #58 on: October 12, 2007, 06:12:42 pm »
what about the past and future thing? is there in this system you are talking of?

moremojo

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Re: Serious Discussions about Life
« Reply #59 on: October 12, 2007, 06:21:42 pm »
what about the past and future thing? is there in this system you are talking of?
I'm not sure about conceptions of time that might be specific to Kashmir Saivism. I know that the system now referred to as Hinduism teaches a cyclical concept of time, where Brahman conceives a universe, sustains it, and ultimately destroys it, only for the cycle to be repeated indefinitely. The lengths of time employed (yuga, I believe is the term) are immense, as in billions of years.

I'll have to ask Keith about concepts of time as expounded by Abhinavagupta, assuming he addressed that subject. I suspect that time is probably seen as ultimately illusory, a tool with which to activate and sustain the Great Play, but which ultimately has no real existence beyond this purpose.