Do You Support The Death Penalty?

[Shasta542]

What would you have done with Tim? I'm really asking because I don't know what I'd have done if it had been up to me. Didn't he ask for the death penalty?

And then---maybe whatever you or I would  have done would be entirely different if we'd had a child in the daycare that day. Sometmes it's a matter of perspective.

[David In Indy]

What would you have done with Tim? I'm really asking because I don't know what I'd have done if it had been up to me. Didn't he ask for the death penalty?

And then---maybe whatever you or I would  have done would be entirely different if we'd had a child in the daycare that day. Sometmes it's a matter of perspective.

I'm not sure how I feel about giving the Death Penalty to someone who asks for it Shasta. Does this suddenly make KILLING someone okay because they asked for it? I don't think so. Killing is killing. I am against the death penalty period. And would I feel differently about it had one of my family members or my child been killed in that awful and dreadful bombing? Maybe. I don't know. I am radically against the death penalty. I've always been against it and I would imagine I will probably always be like this. Timothy McVeigh was an evil man. But what did we accomplish by killing him? It didn't bring back any of those people who died that day. The only thing it accomplished really was to make some people feel better. It satisfied their sense of revenge. I know some people will disagree with me about this, but like I said, I have always felt like this.

[Shasta542]

I guess my point is---if it hasn't happened to us, we may not know how we'd react.

I have heard of people asking for the life (to be spared) of someone who killed one of their loved ones, though. Those people are very forgiving. I'd like to think I would be, but I can't say I would. And I kinda doubt it--it would be according to circumstances.

A drunk guy killed my mother (in a car wreck). Today we got in a discussion about forgiveness (some people did; I just listened) at work. I thought about the drunk guy. I can't say that I forgive him; I have NO feeling whatsoever about him. I don't know him, but I don't feel hate or love or any feeling toward him. I wish he hadn't made that bad choice to drive and take a life.

Maybe it's because I don't know him. Don't even know if he's still alive. He got a couple years in prison, tho, and that was a long time ago. I've never felt that he deserved to die, but I think he's a killer just the same. Sometimes I think it's better that I never knew this person.

If someone had -- say -- broken into our house and killed my grandparents --like just for the hell of it--I'm pretty sure I would want that person to get the death penalty.

So, I don't know. I hope none of us ever have to find out how we'd feel in that case.

[Shasta542]

I'm not sure how I feel about giving the Death Penalty to someone who asks for it Shasta. Does this suddenly make KILLING someone okay because they asked for it? I don't think so. Killing is killing.

(OT)

So---am I correct in assuming that you'd be against euthanasia for someone who asks for it?

And abortion of a viable fetus?

[serious crayons]

Oh Shasta, that's horrible. I'm so sorry to hear that.

I would like to think that if someone killed a loved one -- a thought so awful I can barely type it -- I wouldn't change my principles. It's true that you never know until you're in that situation, but I have seen parents ask courts not to impose the death penalty on the murderers of their children, and I admired them a lot and hoped I could do the same in their place.

Forgiveness is another matter entirely. I'd have a lot of trouble with that.

On other issues:

-- I would not impose the death penalty on someone who asked for it. The government is not obliged to honor murderers' requests.

-- Child rapists, I'm not sure how I'd handle. Maybe put them away for life. I wouldn't kill them.

-- Euthanasia and abortion are entirely different issues. I don't think I oppose euthanasia for someone who is near the end of life anyway with a fatal disease -- though I'd have to be sure sure sure sure there was no hope of a cure. As for abortion, the question there is not whether one is for or against killing, it's whether one believes the fetus is a full human being. I think I'd be against it for a fully viable fetus.

David, thanks for posting those maps and other info. Shocking how few states oppose it. Did you know that most of the Democratic candidates for president support the death penalty? I think Chris Dodds is the only one who doesn't!       

[Lynne]

I always found it strange that most of the people who support the death penalty also consider themselves Evangelical Christians. I thought one of the most important rules of Christianity was "Thou Shalt Not Kill"?

I feel this is yet another example of "Christians" bending and shaping the rules of their religion to suit their needs.

I fully agree with everything you said Lynne. Thanks for your comments! 

Thank you, David.  Tell you what, there's the same dissonance going on with the death penalty discussion as with the homosexuality discussion in the so-called evangelical Christian movement.  I know I'm oversimplifiying, but the 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' and 'Turn the Other Cheek' doctrines conflict with the 'Eye for an Eye' doctrine.  To my mind, these are the same conflicts that are used to label homosexuality sinful - it's all there with the same verses that explain how slaves and wives shall best be treated and punished for perceived infringments.  I have little use for any of it.  My favorite (ironic-sense) embodiment of these sentiments are those who think it's completely logical to be both pro-life and pro-death penalty.  WTF?   It's one of my many arguments that church and state should never ever meet.

Fundamentalism (as we tend to define it) is just as dangerous in this country's evangelical movements as in any Muslim state.

Nobody thinks that Timothy McVeigh should have blown up the Federal Building in OK City.  He did it on my birthday weekend and it's forever etched in my brain - that whole weekend.  And I'm no scholar of that whole scene, but I read enough at the time to feel at least some degree of empathy for him...the soldier feeling abandoned and alienated by the government he used to hold as inviolate.  He lost the whole basis of his belief structure.  I am definitely not saying there's any excuse for what he did - but there were reasons that make sense if you can look at them from his twisted perspective.  I've never touched mint chocolate chip ice cream again.  And I never will.

[serious crayons]

  My favorite (ironic-sense) embodiment of these sentiments are those who think it's completely logical to be both pro-life and pro-death penalty.  WTF?  

Well, I have to hold to my slavishly ACLU-style adherence to overall principles as opposed to politics and say that, as I mentioned before, I don't think these two issues are comparable. From the pro-life, pro-death (!) position -- one which, as I said, I don't agree with -- I think you might argue that you're pro-life because fetuses are innocent human beings and therefore don't deserve to die, but serial killers have done something terrible and therefore DO deserve to die.

Again, please keep in mind that I don't subscribe to this view, I just think I have to distinguish capital punishment and abortion as two separate issues, because I'm the opposite -- anti-death penalty, pro-choice.

I've never touched mint chocolate chip ice cream again.  And I never will.

OK, so I'm out of the loop. What's the deal with mint chocolate chip ice cream?

[Lynne]

Well, I have to hold to my slavishly ACLU-style adherence to overall principles as opposed to politics and say that, as I mentioned before, I don't think these two issues are comparable. From the pro-life, pro-death (!) position -- one which, as I said, I don't agree with -- I think you might argue that you're pro-life because fetuses are innocent human beings and therefore don't deserve to die, but serial killers have done something terrible and therefore DO deserve to die.

Again, please keep in mind that I don't subscribe to this view, I just think I have to distinguish capital punishment and abortion as two separate issues, because I'm the opposite -- anti-death penalty, pro-choice.

I feel you - that's kinda what I was trying to say.  I can understand the arguments they make, but is it 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' or 'Judge Not Lest.'?  Inconsistent, IMO.

OK, so I'm out of the loop. What's the deal with mint chocolate chip ice cream?

McVeigh's 'last meal' before his execution was mint chocolate chip ice cream.  It's not that I have that much sympathy for him, it's just that I can never forget it - it's always in the back of my brain.

[dot-matrix]

I am firmly on the fence about the death penalty.  Some criminals commit crimes so heineous that death as a consequence should be a no-brainer.  But our legal system is flawed and innocent people are convicted on circumstancial evidence, and inspite of what legal purists will tell you the presumption of innocence is a dream.  There is no easy answer to this dilemma.

As for abortion, I am firmly pro-choice.  I personally would never ever abort a child, but neither would I force one onto someone who neither wanted it nor was prepared to care for it.  You cannot legislate morality.

[serious crayons]

I can understand the arguments they make, but is it 'Thou Shalt Not Kill' or 'Judge Not Lest.'?  Inconsistent, IMO.

Oh, definitely. And "He who is without sin can throw the first electric-chair switch." Clearly, those who most often mention Jesus seem to be the ones who pay the least attention to his viewpoints.

McVeigh's 'last meal' before his execution was mint chocolate chip ice cream.  It's not that I have that much sympathy for him, it's just that I can never forget it - it's always in the back of my brain.

Oh great, now it's going to be in mine, too.  Luckily, I'm not big on mint chocolate chip. Thank God he didn't order blueberry cheesecake or fudge-ripple mocha!