Author Topic: Do You Support The Death Penalty?  (Read 166238 times)

Offline serious crayons

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #130 on: October 22, 2007, 02:09:31 pm »
I don't recall setting myself up as some example of a non-evil (mild or otherwise) doing human being.  I simply said there is no such thing as a necessary evil.

OK, sorry. Maybe we're talking semantics. What I meant was that, when faced with two evils -- go to war and kill vs. let Hitler go unchecked, for example -- you have to choose one. You can't not choose, because if you don't pick one the other will prevail. You become a passive enabler of evil. So whichever one you pick becomes the necessary evil.




Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #131 on: October 22, 2007, 02:19:56 pm »
Abortion is far to available of a choice.  It makes it much to easy to abdicate responsability for one's own actions. 

I think there's nothing particularly easy about obtaining an abortion in our society even if it is legal... nevermind any level of personal turmoil and psychological distress that might be involved for the woman making the decision.

And the whole question of personal responsibility goes right back to the whole question of where the responsibility of the straight man lies in all of this.  The burden of this type of dilemma... an unwanted pregnancy... will always fall much harder on the woman (simply because it's her own body... and pain and agony involved in the pregnancy and/or abortion).  If contraceptives were 100% effective and the burden of contraception feel *equally* on both the male and the female partner the whole question of personal responsibility might be easier for me to deal with in this context.  Saying that an unwanted pregnancy has something to do with lack of personal responsibility on the part of the female partner is not fair.  She just bears the physical consequences and turmoil in her life (given an unwanted pregnancy) that her male partner would never have to endure even if his personal responsibility in the situation was just as lacking.



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Scott6373

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #132 on: October 22, 2007, 02:33:03 pm »
I think there's nothing particularly easy about obtaining an abortion in our society even if it is legal... nevermind any level of personal turmoil and psychological distress that might be involved for the woman making the decision.

And the whole question of personal responsibility goes right back to the whole question of where the responsibility of the straight man lies in all of this.  The burden of this type of dilemma... an unwanted pregnancy... will always fall much harder on the woman (simply because it's her own body... and pain and agony involved in the pregnancy and/or abortion).  If contraceptives were 100% effective and the burden of contraception feel *equally* on both the male and the female partner the whole question of personal responsibility might be easier for me to deal with in this context.  Saying that an unwanted pregnancy has something to do with lack of personal responsibility on the part of the female partner is not fair.  She just bears the physical consequences and turmoil in her life (given an unwanted pregnancy) that her male partner would never have to endure even if his personal responsibility in the situation was just as lacking.


I didn't say that an unwanted pregnancy has something to do with lack of personal responsibility on the part of the female partner specifically, and I do agree that is much easier for the man to walk away with little or no emotional or physical expense, so how do we change that?

I have worked in healthcare long enough to know that yes, that procedure is readily available for any woman, anytime she chooses to have it performed.  Perhaps I should have said that abortion should be a matter of necessity, not convenience, and no, I am not saying that all women who get abortions get them because carrying the baby to term would be inconvenient, but can you say that is the case 100% of the time, and what would be your acceptable losses?

Offline louisev

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #133 on: October 22, 2007, 02:45:09 pm »
The idea that abortion is readily available anytime for any woman is simply not true.  It is not covered by many health care plans, it is not supported by public funds except in limited circumstances and in particular states, and is not available to Medicaid recipients in states where the Hyde Amendment holds sway (27 states). the Hyde Amendment states that public funds can only be used for abortion in cases of rape, incest, or where a threat exists to the health of the mother.

And that having been said, this is only with regard to the USA.  From a fact sheet on abortion and public funding:

The Guttmacher Institute has found that 20-35% of Medicaid-eligible women who would choose abortion carry their pregnancies to term when public funds are not available.


Source:  http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/public_funding.html
from the National Abortion Federation

Worldwide,   25% of all nations only permit abortion in the case of saving the mother"s life, or prohibit it completely.

Source:  http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/ib_0599.html

So - is abortion widely available to any woman who wants one?  Not by a longshot.
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Offline loneleeb3

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #134 on: October 22, 2007, 02:53:40 pm »
Quote
I do agree that is much easier for the man to walk away with little or no emotional or physical expense, so how do we change that?
if  a man Wants the child and the woman doesn't, TFB! The man has no say. The woman can destroy his child if she wants to.
If the woman chooses to keep the Child and the man doesn't want it, she can drag him into court and he is forced to pay for the child until said child is 18. TFB for the man. The man has no say at all.  I don't think that's right.


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Offline serious crayons

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #135 on: October 22, 2007, 02:54:39 pm »
Perhaps I should have said that abortion should be a matter of necessity, not convenience, and no, I am not saying that all women who get abortions get them because carrying the baby to term would be inconvenient, but can you say that is the case 100% of the time, and what would be your acceptable losses?

Well, but who would get to judge which is which? One person's necessity (I have to have an abortion because if I'm pregnant I'll have to drop out of school) is someone else's convenience (You can have the baby, give it up for adoption, and go back to school afterward). How many pregnancies, short of health crises or maybe rape/incest, couldn't conceivably be labeled either way, depending on the beholder? On the one hand, any complicating circumstances can conceivably be dealt with somehow. On the other, enduring any unwanted pregnancy inevitably goes far beyond an "inconvenience."

Plus, this just takes us back to the necessary-evil, unresolved-argument thing. If abortion is wrong enough that we strive to limit it to more "necessary" cases, how is it not just plain wrong period? Is it OK to commit some murders as long as they're deemed "necessary" and you try to limit the total (well, I guess the Bush administration would say so, judging from their actions in Iraq, and they don't even seem all that careful about limiting)?





Scott6373

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #136 on: October 22, 2007, 02:57:51 pm »
This has all been very enlightening to me.  It has helped crytsalize how I feel on the subject.  Thank you.

Offline HerrKaiser

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #137 on: October 22, 2007, 03:03:01 pm »
Interesting twists on the points. to clarify, here are some responses

2) of course laws inhibiting drug (legal and illiegal) use, unlawful operations, unnecessary operations, etc are about "bodily sovreignty". and being compelled to work at a job or occupation or trade that one does not want to is the same thing. They exist because government believes people can't make the right choices. The inability to view child bearing as something other than "bodily sovreignty rights" is the bias that inhibits another view outside the rigid pro choice, any time, any place, any reason mentality, I think.
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This is a very trite argument I think...personally I have never heard of the government forcing a person to
remain in a job they hated in order to pay child support.  You have every right to change jobs...whenever.
You continue to bring the entire focus of this right into the realm of when or where a fetus becomes a
person..That is and will always be everyones individual decision.  As much as you want to make it a scientific
proof..It is like proving there is a god...You can never prove there is one to those who are non believers...and you cannot prove he doesnt exist either..its a philosophical question..not a factual one.. And as for the difficulties
that any woman goes thru before and after they choose, or dont choose to have an abortion..It has many
different questions to consider.  If you put societal and religious thoughts into the equation, it is only a more
difficult decision.  It is however usually the male dominated society that is telling women what and why they]
should not be allowed to have this choice..Starting with the Catholic churchs mandates...no abortions period..no birth control period, etc..it is a lot of the way it is carried forth.  It is thru teachings and further threats of hell and
damnation...All of these issues come to bear on her decision making.  She has enough to think about without all the rest of us getting the govt. involved...
      This always brings to mind the people that think the point of insemination  is the beginning of the
live or not live argument...  Ok then if that is the point of humaness, and it should not be allowed to be terminated.  Or discarded.  Why then do we not go one step further, and say that a man throwing his seed away is not the same thing.?  I just dont understand why people want or try to get involved in other peoples private
business.  And the Constitution itself gives us the right to "life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.."  Isnt this
a part of that freedom.  It doesnt say unless, so and so is involved, or whenever others say its ok for you to do that.   Or are women supposed, no entitlement to that freedom...That they are unworthy, or not discerning enough to make these decisions on their own behalf..Along with their doctors...


I think the comparative is not trite at all. Rather, I find it unfortunately disingenuous to define the "sovereignty" of a woman's body relative to the baby within it and arbitrarily deny the overwhelming evidence that all our bodies are not sovereign to goverment regulation on many levels. This seems much more a functiuon of selective perception that an realistic view of how regulatory statutes affect how people use and can't use their bodies.

You continue to bring the entire focus of this right into the realm of when or where a fetus becomes a
person..That is and will always be everyones individual decision.


Of course we bring the focus to this level! To have missed this as the key part of the discussion for several decades is to have missed the main issue. We are not a nation, nor a culture, nor a civilization of iindividuals making up their own guidelines in total. All sociaties have structure. I admit the pro abortion group chooses to identify the unborn and non-human and outside the realm of societal concern, but that IS the debate.

If a fetus is not a person, I heartily object to my insurance dollars and tax dollars paying for health care for non-persons.


It is however usually the male dominated society that is telling women what and why they]
should not be allowed to have this choice

I think this victimization-at-the-hands-of-men approach is both factally incorrect and misleading. The Supreme court was all male when Roe v Wade was decided upon. The rights provided to women per that case ELIMINATE the right to fatherhood and guarantee the right to motherhood. Only women, not men, have a say in the life or death of the unborn, regardliess of marital status, or anything else. That is hardly a policy suggesting male-domination. All the power in this regard is, and has been, in the hands of women.

And that is what many are debating. 100% independent choice with no restrictions is not good, not fair, and clearly not in line with a society that cherishes life.

by the by...some posters have suggested that anyone can simply go to a hospital and have any surgical procedure done upon request. This is most definitely not the case. Any accredited hospital and their procedures are regulated by statute.

Scott6373

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #138 on: October 22, 2007, 03:13:46 pm »

by the by...some posters have suggested that anyone can simply go to a hospital and have any surgical procedure done upon request. This is most definitely not the case. Any accredited hospital and their procedures are regulated by statute.

That's actually correct and incorrect.  Naturally, it would have to be orderred by and done by a qualified physician, but in the USA, if you belong to the middle class, you work and get your insurance through your employer.  90% of thrid party payors cover pregnancy termination with the approval of the members's primary care physician, and I can say with a certain surety, that most PCP's give approval whenever asked.  Medicaid recipients are another story, but you would be surprised at how easily even themost heavily regulated procedures are obtained.  An example;  A patient at one office, who was on Medicaid decided she wanted to have another child.  In Massachusetts, there are limits on how many children you can have and still remain no the welfare/Medcaid rolls.  She had difficulty getting pregnant, and insisted that Mediciad pay for fertility treatments.  She gave birth to twins.  Any rule can be bent, and often is.

Offline David In Indy

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Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #139 on: October 22, 2007, 03:29:12 pm »
I'm confused, and I have some mixed feelings about when a fetus becomes a human, and I admit I'm not sure of the answer. But if a fetus is NOT a human being, why did they convict Scott Peterson of a double murder when he killed his wife and her unborn child. It seems to me if a fetus is NOT a human, he should have only been convicted for the murder of his wife. Don't you agree? It's almost as if a double standard is at play here.  ???
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