Author Topic: Do You Support The Death Penalty?  (Read 166205 times)

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #170 on: November 08, 2007, 10:45:22 am »
I'm not in favor of the death penalty because I don't think the state should have the right to take the life of its citizens.  The state can, and often does, make mistakes.  And the state can misuse its power for political reasons.

I also don't think that the justice and penal systems should be about revenge, or judgement in the Biblical sense.  I don't think human beings know enough to judge even themselves, much less others in this way.  If someone has proven that he/she can't be trusted with his/her freedom he/she should be removed from the general population.  I want to be protected from violent criminals.  I don't want them hurt or abused.  (But I can understand a victim or someone close to a victim feeling differently.)  If there is a God, then let God be the judge.

Gary

Thanks Gary.   I'm with Susie... this seems like a very thoughtful, well-reasoned post and point of view.  I agree with you that justice should not be about a system of revenge.





the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline delalluvia

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,289
  • "Truth is an iron bride"
Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #171 on: November 08, 2007, 09:31:57 pm »
Punishment is only a type of 'revenge' if you think it is.

Otherwise it's whatever you might think it is - self defense, justice, etc.

I consider it justice and self-defense.

As for not judging...well, our whole justice system is about judging others.  We actually have people called "Judges".  We judge all the time, in every day life in almost every situation we're in.  We make 'judgement' calls.  It's human nature, it's how one makes a decision.  I'm not sure how one can expect people not to judge.

Instead of the biblical "judge not" stuff, which is obviously unworkable since we do it all the time, I liked Rand's philosophy of "judge - and be prepared to be judged."

Offline ifyoucantfixit

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,049
Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #172 on: November 09, 2007, 02:39:57 pm »

      Ok dont do it in your name...just mine.....I dont believe they should be kept alive, simply because
we find the carrying out of justice, distasteful..  There are many things we do in the name of justice
that are hard to swallow.  But with the amount of violence and murder.  Rapes and mutilations going
on these days..We have to do something more than put them in a permanent state of imprisonment.
These people have done these terrible crimes, then proceed to enter the prison system, and repeat
the same things inside the prisons killing other prisoners, and raping them, and even killing the
prison guards and employees..What to do....?
      Send them to their room....



     Beautiful mind

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #173 on: November 09, 2007, 03:04:18 pm »
dont believe they should be kept alive, simply because we find the carrying out of justice, distasteful..

I don't find it distasteful, I find it just plain wrong.

Depriving a human being of his/her life is not within the rights of another human being. We can say, "You're not fit to live in civilized society," because we other humans have created that society and we can make the rules. So we can send them into exile or, more practically these days, lock them up. But we can't say, "You're not fit to stay alive," because we didn't give the person life in the first place.

I'm agnostic. But if there is/are God(s), I'm pretty sure he/she/they would say that's not our job.

Offline ifyoucantfixit

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,049
Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #174 on: November 09, 2007, 04:23:12 pm »




             I still say what to do??



     Beautiful mind

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #175 on: November 09, 2007, 06:40:00 pm »
Get on in there and untangle them Chilean sheep outa ours, I guess.

Which sounds glib, but isn't. What I mean is, we do the best we can without breaking what is, IMO, a moral law. I do see it as distasteful to have to provide food and shelter for someone who's done a horrible thing. But what are you gonna do? Unless there's a fantasy island available -- or a habitable planet -- where we can just dump all the bad guys and let them fend for themselves, that's what we're stuck with.


Offline ifyoucantfixit

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,049
Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #176 on: November 09, 2007, 07:56:19 pm »



    I have said all along this should be only foir the most heinous of oeople..



     Beautiful mind

Offline David In Indy

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 18,447
  • You've Got Male
Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #177 on: November 09, 2007, 08:16:56 pm »
Let's remember that we are all friends here, even though we may have differing opinions about certain things. Everyone's thoughts and input on this subject is appreciated! :)
Dogs have owners. Cats have staff.

Offline delalluvia

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,289
  • "Truth is an iron bride"
Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #178 on: November 09, 2007, 09:27:54 pm »
Gary

Quote
You can judge whether or not someone is guilty of a violent crime, and therefore can't be trusted with his/her freedom, without judging that person's worth in the larger scheme of things.

I think that’s a matter of opinion.  What is someone’s worth in the larger scheme of things?

Quote
You can look at a situation and try to decide what happened without comment on the basic humanity of the people involved.

That depends on the situation though, doesn’t it?

Quote
And the way we set up our prisons in a way that allows the strong to rape and abuse the weak is an example of how we as a society have no respect for the humanity of our prisoners.

But what does that say about our society where people are running around free, yet the strong continue to rape and abuse the weak? 


crayons

Quote
I don't find it distasteful, I find it just plain wrong.

Depriving a human being of his/her life is not within the rights of another human being. We can say, "You're not fit to live in civilized society," because we other humans have created that society and we can make the rules. So we can send them into exile or, more practically these days, lock them up. But we can't say, "You're not fit to stay alive," because we didn't give the person life in the first place.

Well, If someone is threatening my life and the life of my friends or family, I most certainly think I can take them out of this life because that’s what they were planning on doing to me – or have done or plan to do to others.  They have shown they have no respect for others – so why send them to a prison where – as Gary pointed out – they will continue to try to do inside a prison as they have done outside?

Quote
I'm agnostic. But if there is/are God(s), I'm pretty sure he/she/they would say that's not our job...

I’m atheist/agnostic friendly, but in the end, I’m polytheistic/animist and believe the gods know life and death is quite natural, as is self-defense and protection in whatever form and I’m pretty sure they do not smile on anyone who commits heinous crimes against innocent people.

Quote
I do see it as distasteful to have to provide food and shelter for someone who's done a horrible thing. But what are you gonna do? Unless there's a fantasy island available -- or a habitable planet -- where we can just dump all the bad guys and let them fend for themselves, that's what we're stuck with.

Well, see, those who support the death penalty don’t agree that you’re stuck with just a prison sentence.  We support other options – the death penalty for heinous crimes.


Gary

Quote
It worries me that on a message board at a site dedicated to the film BBM there are people who trust the state to decide who is and who isn't worthy of life.

Why does BBM bear into this?

We trust the government with war and making sure our water and food isn’t contaminated, so in many ways, we already trust them with life and death.

Quote
Throughout history ordinary citizens have had much more to fear from their governments than any individual psycho.

But how about your neighbor?  Or abusive husband/father?  Don't forget, the person most likely to kill you is the person you love.

Quote
And it was only just a few years ago that it was against the law to engage in gay sex in a number of states in the U.S.  As a gay man I certainly want the likes of Jeffrey Dahmer removed from the streets, but I don't want the state to have the right to kill Jeffrey Dahmer because there's an awful lot of assholes out there that confuse me with Jeffrey Dahmer.
 

Gay = cannibalism?

Quote
Someone mentioned Ayan Rand's quote, "Judge and be prepared to be judged."  That sounds a lot like don't do anything you wouldn't want to see printed in the papers.  HA!  I do lots of stuff I wouldn't want to see printed in the papers, and if my neighbor were to find out about some of that stuff I wouldn't trust him to judge me with an eye toward fair play any more than I could throw the S.O.B.

Perhaps you want to be re-thinking how you live your life then ;)  Seriously, women have had this problem for millennia.  It's been documented in rape trials that jurors had a hard time convicting rapists because the woman just happened to be wearing a short skirt or had been divorced or was in a bar or - believe it or not - wearing animal print underwear.  Some members of the jury found it hard to believe she was raped.  Her underwear told them she was asking for it.

Quote
And God help me if he had the state with the power to kill me on his side.

That’s a pretty big jump from your neighbor knowing your dirty laundry to suddenly turning into the Gestapo living next to you, isn’t it?  And remember, we're talking heinous crimes.  Does your current life-style lead you to such things?

Quote
"Judge and be prepared to be judged" only works if you're in the majority.  If you're part of a disdained minority you can judge all you want, but you had better be prepared to get stepped on like a bug by a group of people who think they are absolutely right in getting rid of you.

So, how does a minority become a majority to avoid this problem?  They don’t.  They have to have laws that protect them from the majority. 

Offline serious crayons

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: Do You Support The Death Penalty?
« Reply #179 on: November 09, 2007, 10:37:35 pm »
Well, If someone is threatening my life and the life of my friends or family, I most certainly think I can take them out of this life because that’s what they were planning on doing to me – or have done or plan to do to others.

I agree. I said in earlier posts that I would make an exception to the "no killing" rule for those defending themselves and their families. And I would make the exception for defending some larger group of innocents, as in World War II.

But in both those cases, the killing is done to prevent further killing, not after the fact to punish someone for having killed.

Quote
I’m atheist/agnostic friendly, but in the end, I’m polytheistic/animist and believe the gods know life and death is quite natural, as is self-defense and protection in whatever form and I’m pretty sure they do not smile on anyone who commits heinous crimes against innocent people.

Perhaps not. But that doesn't mean they encourage humans to take the punishment into their own hands. If God(s) disapprove of a heinous criminal, you'd think he/she/they'd have the power to mete out justice. Alternatively, the fact that heinous criminals do exist and can get away with such crimes suggests that God(s) don't exist, don't care, or plan to deal with the criminals later in their own way.

Quote
Well, see, those who support the death penalty don’t agree that you’re stuck with just a prison sentence.  We support other options – the death penalty for heinous crimes.

Yes, I know. But I'm not one of them. In light of my assertion that killing is wrong, Janice asked, "I still say what to do?" and that was my answer.

Quote
But how about your neighbor?  Or abusive husband/father?  Don't forget, the person most likely to kill you is the person you love.

And that's an argument for wanting to see them fry??
 
Quote
  It's been documented in rape trials that jurors had a hard time convicting rapists because the woman just happened to be wearing a short skirt or had been divorced or was in a bar or - believe it or not - wearing animal print underwear.  Some members of the jury found it hard to believe she was raped.  Her underwear told them she was asking for it.

And that's an argument for trusting juries to decide on whether people live or die??

There was a time when committing gay sex was considered by the majority to be a heinous crime, worthy of the death penalty.  Many still hold this view.

Good point, Gary. Some countries even now hand out death penalties for homosexuality.

Quote
And yes, we do trust government to make war and protect our drinking water.  And look at what a wonderful job they're doing.

 :laugh: