Do You Support The Death Penalty?

[delalluvia]

Secondly, I really take issue with Del's point about striving for a more ideal society being foolish:

With respect to the quote I highlighted, 'Damn, that's harsh.'  That's not the kind of world I want to live in - no way, no how.  I'll reiterate - in my view of the world, I'd rather a guilty person go free than one innocent person be put to death.  The end.  I agree that we all have our own individual concepts of what we consider morality; it is the consensus we reach from these concepts that form what passes for law in our society and has been since the beginning of civilization.  It is a constantly evolving process and it is our RESPONSIBILITY (imo) as members of the human race to constantly question, requestion, and adjust -- or what's the point?!

Check out this website for The Innocence Project:  http://www.innocenceproject.org/know/Browse-Profiles.php

Two hundred and eight people exonerated to date.  Each and every one of these people have a story and that story is no more nor less than the story that each victim of crime has.  And I'm sure that's only the tip of the iceburg - cases with high enough profiles and where there was enough scientific evidence still available to have cases reopened.  I'd wager thousands upon thousands are still imprisoned wrongly.  Penalties (death and otherwise) are not applied fairly across racial, gender, or socio-economic lines.  There's plenty of evidence out there to support that.

AS far as I can tell there is no evidence that the death penalty deters crime.  There's evidence in California that the 'three-strikes' law actually increases homicides because when a criminal has two strikes, he or she does not want to leave witnesses to incriminate him or her for the third.

I'm probably repeating myself (I do that!  ) but I'd rather my tax money go to early intervention programs to keep people from lives of crime in the first place - food, shelter, medical care - especially mental health care, education, jobs.  For the small percentage of sociopaths who won't be deterred from violence, I'm OK with imprisoning them for life.  I'm not willing to give up this ideal just because 'perfection' is not practical - I'll gladly settle for a 95% success rate.

Hi Lynne, I'm sorry you took that harsh, I guess it only read that way.  Another way to say that is "you don't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs".  Meaning, there are going to be things that happen in the course of any activity that are good and bad.  You cannot escape it.

I certainly support programs such as "The Innocent Project".  But remember, there are very few people on death row compared to the multitudes that are just imprisoned for life.  We don't give drug dealers and car thieves the death penalty. 

Everyone needs to remember we're talking about heinous crimes and very few juries give the death penalty on circumstantial evidence cases.  They usually give life in prison sentences simply because they do give the benefit of the doubt to the person convicted.

But like Dahlmer, sometimes there truly is a smoking gun.  Blood splatter evidence, blow back evidence, admission by the perps of things like "We were alone in the house and she killed herself" when the bullet is in the back of the victim's head kind of thing.  Sometimes, it's just obvious.

As for perfection...well, striving for that simply gets you burned out people because you are reaching for something that doesn't exist.  Look at your own job - don't know about you, but my bosses expect perfection because a mistake can be extremely costly, but at the same time, they don't like to spend money to hire more people and prefer that the people they do have sacrifice their personal lives so they can work 7 days a week.

So, perfection is expected at my place of employment.  Do we reach it?  Fuck no.  Do I try?  Nope.  I simply try my best.  If that gets perfection, great, if it doesn't?  Oh well, I tried my best and that's the most you can expect.

[delalluvia]

I don't agree with this statement at all.  I have a 12 year old son, a loving, caring thoughtful boy.  His dad is a wonderful man and my son looks up to him and respects him, but he looks up to me too and has equal respect for me. 

We are both  role models for all three of our children; our son and our two daughters.

Susie 

Let me know how it goes when your boy reaches teenage status.   

A friend of mine was raising her boy alone.  She was in great shape, so she played ball with him, was involved in sports with him, could play one-on-one basketball with him, worked hard, brought him to Bring Your Kid to Work day, so he could see all her responsibilities.  He was helpful around the house, considerate, they were a team...

Then he hit puberty and all that went out the window.  She could no longer deal with him and had to send him to live with his father.  To say it broke her heart is an understatement.  She couldn't understand where she went wrong.

All kids are different.

[delalluvia]

They certainly are .. which is why we shouldn't tar them all with the same brush! 

I have an older daughter already so I know all about teenage tantrums and raging hormones ... and I'll be there to pull him back when he crosses the line and pick him up when he falls flat on his face.

I can see that you're very cynical about men in general Dellaluvia, but there are plenty of gooduns out there, they're not all devils in disguise.

Susie 

Don't get me wrong.  I don't demonize men.  I know plenty of good men.  They are friends of mine, would give you the shirt off their backs, help you move, visit you in the hospital, let you stay with them if you're down and out, bring you soup when you are sick, are nice guys - yet they also believe if a woman gets fat - that's a reason to divorce her.  That women aren't capable of making important decisions.  That if you go out with them as friends, they are free to make a pass at you and get pissed off if you won't sleep with them.

One guy I know was my hero when an ex-boyfriend completely destroyed me when he dumped me.  He was there to pick me up, shore up my ego, just - oh, he was wonderful and I have never forgotten that and still remember him kindly on his birthday and Xmas for that.

He loves feminist women, was raised by a feminist CEO mother (looks up to her as a great role model) but when he gets into arguments with women?  His best riposte line is "Roll over." in response.

Ker chunk!  Putting a woman in her place.

He also slept with my sister several times and then denied it, because as he put it during the Clinton/Lewinsky scandal, "All men who sleep with fat chicks lie about it."

These are the same men...who were raised well, by good families with strong mothers.  I don't demonize them, I just know some of them very very well.     Wherever they got their how-to-interact-with-women-who-aren't-their-mothers script from, I don't know, but I'm thinking it wasn't their mothers. 

[souxi]

QUOTE:

I don't see why those in favour of the death penalty are so dead set on its continuation.  What harm to society is there in keeping even sadistical serial killers firmly behind lock and key - treating them humanely but certainly never letting them out into society again? When the very fact that they, even *they*, are treated humanly in prison serves to remind us all that society as a whole will and should demonstrably *not* sink towards their level in *any* way, shape or form: What they did in taking lives (not to mention the how and why and how often of it) was unconscionable and outside the realm of acceptable human behaviour, and the punishment in pointed contrast should be humane, though certainly not naive.  "An eye for an eye makes the world blind". QUOTE:

Treating them humanely?  Did I read that right? Did Hindley and Brady treat Leslie Anne Downey humanely when they sexually abused her, took photos of her, and recorded her screams and pleas to be allowed home to her mummy? Them two wern,t human, therefore didn,t deserve to be treated as such. Hell Hindley had her own cell, she was allowed a tv, allowed to decorate it as she wished, she took degrees, had access to computers and even had lesbian lovers in prison. Completly outragous. I,m sure Leslies mother would have liked her daughter to have got a degree in something had got herself a good job, had a family etc, but because of the EVIL actions of that depraved pair of monsters, she was denied all that, whilst that bitch Hindely got a life of comparative luxury, even if it was in a cell. Treat them humanely?? Don,t make me laugh. They wern,t human, they wern,t even animals, they were just monsters, pure and simple. She wasn,t punished even by being in prison. She had the one luxury her and her monster in crime denied all their victims, LIFE. Long may she rot/burn in hell.

[Mikaela]

Did I read that right?

You sure did. Human rights and humane treatment should be extended to all human beings, however inhumane their own actions. Otherwise society loses its humanity piece by piece.

I do not know how the mother you keep referring to would have reacted had she actually been given sole decision power concerning the fate of these people  - for instance, I do not know that she might not in the end have reacted the same way as Matthew Shepherd's father, who showed such enormous personal strenght in pointedly letting the murderers keep the life that they cruelly denied his son. But be that as it may, in civilized societies neither the burden of nor the right and obligation to singlehandedly determine the appropriate fate of murderers and to carry out the "sentence" lie with individuals directly related to the victim.

I will not otherwise repeat my argument further as I have explained my position sufficiently above. And Dagi and Gary, thank you both for kind words in that connection. 


I thought that for easy reference I might include what the International Humanist and Ethical Union has to say about the Death penalty:

http://www.iheu.org/node/2151

...and about Capital Punishment:

http://www.iheu.org/node/2019

Though I post this here for anyone who is interested, I do not think there is anything under these links that has not already been argued very eloquently by BM members involved in this discussion. 

[David In Indy]

Apparently this man will still be executed, but I'm pleased this country is finally thinking about capital punishment and how appalling and cruel it is. Maybe someday we (the United States) will abolish capital punishment forever and join the ranks of every other civilized country of the world. Did you know that with the exception of Japan, the United States is the only western nation that still endorses the death penalty? It's something to think about and consider....


From The CNN website:


U.S. Supreme Court Blocks Child Killer's Execution

JACKSONVILLE, Florida (AP) -- The U.S. Supreme Court halted the execution of convicted child killer Mark Dean Schwab on Thursday, hours before he was scheduled to die.


Mark Dean Schwab is on death row for the murder of 11-year-old Junny Rios-Martinez.

 The move by the high court was widely expected as it considers the appeals of two Kentucky inmates challenging the same lethal toxic three-drug combination used in Florida.

Schwab was sentenced to death for the murder of 11-year-old Junny Rios-Martinez.

In March 1991, the month Schwab was released from prison on a sexual assault sentence, a newspaper published a picture of Junny for winning a kite contest. Schwab gained the confidence of Junny's family, claiming he was with the newspaper and was writing an article on the boy.

On April 18, Schwab called Junny's school and pretended to be Junny's father and asked that the boy meet him after school. Two days later, Schwab called his aunt in Ohio and claimed that someone named Donald had made him kidnap and rape the boy.

He was later arrested and told police where he left Junny's body -- in a footlocker in a rural part of Brevard County.

Schwab's execution was to be the first in Florida since the botched execution of Angel Diaz on December 13. It took 34 minutes for Diaz to die -- twice as long as normal -- because the guards pushed the needles through his veins.

[Dagi]

You sure did. Human rights and humane treatment should be extended to all human beings, however inhumane their own actions. Otherwise society loses its humanity piece by piece.

Thanks for this post, Mikaela.

[delalluvia]

You sure did. Human rights and humane treatment should be extended to all human beings, however inhumane their own actions. Otherwise society loses its humanity piece by piece.

Sorry, I don't buy this.  We do things that are unpleasant in life because there is a need.  Some choices are the lesser of two evils.  These things are not done because they're enjoyable.  There's very likely not a single policeman or person who believes in the death penalty or judge or jury or soldier that sentences someone to the death penalty or uses deadly force in the performance of their duties that would say they enjoy it.  They believe there are hard choices to make in life and they know they have to live with the consequences of their actions.

So to tell them that their actions contribute to society losing its 'humanity piece by piece' or that they're 'uncivilized' is not only insensitve but offensive.

As for:

Schwab's execution was to be the first in Florida since the botched execution of Angel Diaz on December 13. It took 34 minutes for Diaz to die -- twice as long as normal -- because the guards pushed the needles through his veins.

Honestly, do you wonder how much time Diaz took when he killed his victim?  I bet it wasn't just 34 minutes.

EDITED TO ADD:

From a quickie google search:

Angel Nieves Díaz was quickly involved in the world of crime and drugs, going by the nickname Papo la Muerte (Papa Death). In 1978, he was sentenced to 10-15 years in prison for second-degree murder of a director of Hogares Crea (a drug rehabilitation organization on the island) by stabbing him nineteen times while he was asleep.

[Lynne]

..So to tell them that their actions contribute to society losing its 'humanity piece by piece' or that they're 'uncivilized' is not only insensitive but offensive...

Del, darlin', we just aren't ever going to agree, but I can live with it if you can.   There's some folk wisdom I heard somewhere - something like 'Don't ever give ground because it's hell getting it back.'

I don't think this goes too far off-topic and I promise to bring it full circle.  Let's consider crimes less serious than murder and just immoral behavior in general...

Take a teenager who shoplifts for the thrill of it, knowing it's wrong.  S/he feels guilty, but the next time it's easier if s/he gets away with it and the feelings of remorse are likely lessened.

Take a person with poor self esteem who has sex with a stranger; s/he knows this is not good for the self-image.  The next time, though, the self-esteem is even lower, so what the hell, do it again and again, each time with less angst - less in touch your feelings.

Take a solider or a police officer forced to take a life in the line of duty.  I'm reasonably sure that the first time or two they experience a great deal of guilt and second guessing their decisions.  Eventually, though, they have to compartmentalize.  I know for a fact that snipers refer only to 'targets' - they have to dehumanize who they're about to kill.

I would argue that in all of these cases - losing a sense of right and wrong (remorse), losing touch with your feelings and self-worth, compartmentalizing so you're able to function in your job - are all examples of losing touch with our humanity.  So to summarize, society is made up of individuals and there is collective damage being done to our psyches.  I am still worried about the humanity of the people who administer the death penalty - what that must do to them - unless they are sociopaths themselves, I cannot imagine that they're unscathed.

Hi Lynne, I'm sorry you took that harsh, I guess it only read that way.  Another way to say that is "you don't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs".  Meaning, there are going to be things that happen in the course of any activity that are good and bad.  You cannot escape it.

I certainly support programs such as "The Innocent Project".  But remember, there are very few people on death row compared to the multitudes that are just imprisoned for life.  We don't give drug dealers and car thieves the death penalty. 

Everyone needs to remember we're talking about heinous crimes and very few juries give the death penalty on circumstantial evidence cases.  They usually give life in prison sentences simply because they do give the benefit of the doubt to the person convicted.

But like Dahlmer, sometimes there truly is a smoking gun.  Blood splatter evidence, blow back evidence, admission by the perps of things like "We were alone in the house and she killed herself" when the bullet is in the back of the victim's head kind of thing.  Sometimes, it's just obvious.

As for perfection...well, striving for that simply gets you burned out people because you are reaching for something that doesn't exist. Look at your own job - don't know about you, but my bosses expect perfection because a mistake can be extremely costly, but at the same time, they don't like to spend money to hire more people and prefer that the people they do have sacrifice their personal lives so they can work 7 days a week.

So, perfection is expected at my place of employment.  Do we reach it?  Fuck no.  Do I try?  Nope.  I simply try my best.  If that gets perfection, great, if it doesn't?  Oh well, I tried my best and that's the most you can expect.

I'm still tracking that we're talking about the most heinous crimes and agree with most of what you've posted here.  I know that there's sometimes smoking guns and obvious evidence of guilt.  Nonetheless, I am not willing to equate vengeance with justice.  The death penalty cannot be 'cruel and unusual' so it's not as if we can actually make them suffer the way their victim(s) did.  I like Mr. Shepherd's speech - makes me think that the death penalty is the easy way out; rather let them live with the knowledge of what they've done and know they owe their every very long day of a very long life to their victim.

The part I highlighted, though, I find very sad.  What's the point of the process of living if it's not to take a journey to get in touch with what makes you human and unique and to become the best version of yourself??

[delalluvia]

Hiya Lynne.  Of course we can agree to disagree,    people on this forum are very passionate and believe strongly in what we believe in.  We're not likely to convince each other, but for the lurkers and fence-sitters, our discussions might help them make their own minds up.

I don't think this goes too far off-topic and I promise to bring it full circle.  Let's consider crimes less serious than murder and just immoral behavior in general...

Take a teenager who shoplifts for the thrill of it, knowing it's wrong.  S/he feels guilty, but the next time it's easier if s/he gets away with it and the feelings of remorse are likely lessened.

I don't think this "dehumanizes" her or makes her "uncivilized", more like selfish.

Take a person with poor self esteem who has sex with a stranger; s/he knows this is not good for the self-image.  The next time, though, the self-esteem is even lower, so what the hell, do it again and again, each time with less angst - less in touch your feelings.

My sister does this.  But she's hurt every single time she does it.  I don't see her losing her 'humanity'.  Now prostitutes to some degree compartmentalize, but don't we all do this to some degree?  Funeral directors do this, so do doctors.  Otherwise they couldn't stand the onslaught of strong emotions day in and day out.  I don't see that this "uncivilizes" them.

Take a solider or a police officer forced to take a life in the line of duty.  I'm reasonably sure that the first time or two they experience a great deal of guilt and second guessing their decisions.  Eventually, though, they have to compartmentalize.  I know for a fact that snipers refer only to 'targets' - they have to dehumanize who they're about to kill.

Of course soldiers do this.  It's the only way they can do their duty.  However, if you ask them, they'll say they're not doing it for 'god' or 'country' or 'patriotism', the majority say that at a very basic level, they're shooting because they're being shot at and to protect their friends - fellow soldiers.  To me that shows no less humanity or civilized behavior.  They're just showing their humanity to someone else.  And they certainly don't 'lose' it.  Some do, obviously - there are exceptions to everything, but most don't.  One show I saw of Pearl Harbor showed two types of veterans.  One veteran did not want an apology by a Japanese veteran pilot (even a Japanese pilot - despite WWII Bushido military training - was showing regret) and even shook his hand, letting bygones be bygones, telling him he had no reason to apologize, "We were both just doing our duty".  The other American solider refused to even approach the Japanese veterans at the event, he was crying and upset saying he would never forgive the Japanese because of all his friends they killed.

Are these men 'uncivilized' and losing touch with their 'humanity'?

I'm still tracking that we're talking about the most heinous crimes and agree with most of what you've posted here.  I know that there's sometimes smoking guns and obvious evidence of guilt.  Nonetheless, I am not willing to equate vengeance with justice.  The death penalty cannot be 'cruel and unusual' so it's not as if we can actually make them suffer the way their victim(s) did.  I like Mr. Shepherd's speech - makes me think that the death penalty is the easy way out; rather let them live with the knowledge of what they've done and know they owe their every very long day of a very long life to their victim.

OK, but I don't call it vengeance.  I call it self-defense and justice.  Mr. Shepherd's speech was very noble, but we're making the assumption that the criminals 'live with the knowledge of what they've done'.  That is an assumption.  Likely they're no less homophobic than before - in Mr. Shepherd's case - and there are criminals - despite being caught literally red-handed sometimes with a smoking gun - will tell you they're innocent and will continue to tell you that all the rest of their lives because they're in denial or they're sociopathic and don't think they ever do anything wrong.  So lengthy prison sentences won't affect them at all or "make them think", instead it makes them angrier and bitter and more self-righteous because they are the victims because they're innocent! 

The part I highlighted, though, I find very sad.  What's the point of the process of living if it's not to take a journey to get in touch with what makes you human and unique and to become the best version of yourself??

I guess because some people don't have the philosophy of 'an unexamined life is not worth living'.  Instead they just want to be happy and have it easy.  Very basic and satisfying human goals.