The story flashback about Jack's dad peeing on him

[serious crayons]

Oh, that's right! How could I forget? Thanks, Chrissi. That's a good thread.

[LauraGigs]

It seems to me that fathers are rarely treated as good ones in films, as neither are Ennis and Jack's in the BM film!!

Yes, good point Artiste. More often than not, characters are introduced with 'baggage' (such as unloving fathers) to explain their complicated natures and enrich the plot.

. . . but also how Ennis and Jack become to accept and love) each other, since each grew up nearly alone mentally in some ways, and that makes it surely a common thought for bonding!! I was always surprised and shocked that Ennis allows Jack to kiss him in that second tent scene of tenderness, and much more so when Ennis does kiss Jack!! Why? The pissing acts helped??

I wouldn't say the pissing all by itself. But it is the general lack of love and emotional abandonment by Jack and Ennis' fathers that make the second tent scene so believable and moving.

For a few moments, Jack even cradles Ennis and rocks him back and forth, like a little baby. And as out of character as it may seem for Ennis to accept such a form of affection, it's not so shocking given his his deprivation of that kind of love by his dad.

[Artiste]

Thanks LauraGigs!

I do not know why Jack rocks Ennis in the second tent scene. That rocking replaces Ennis' mother? In a way?

At least Jack does not piss on Ennis!! So... both lives are changing, are not like their fathers were/are that much??
So, this is part of the sexual revolution of the sixties: CARESSING??

Hugs!

[brokeplex]

Thanks LauraGigs!

I do not know why Jack rocks Ennis in the second tent scene. That rocking replaces Ennis' mother? In a way?

At least Jack does not piss on Ennis!! So... both lives are changing, are not like their fathers were/are that much??
So, this is part of the sexual revolution of the sixties: CARESSING??

Hugs!

I think that it was just a display of normal human feeling. Ennis was showing that he cared for Jack, and Jack responded. It was important to Jack throughout his life because it was a moment when Jack felt loved! simple as that.......

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

But I do not think that Ennis would have hugged Jack then?? !!

Certainly not kissed Jack!! ??

That, to me, were 2 gestures, much too early in their relationtionship!! ?? To you too?

Sure Jack talks about his dad peeing on him... and Ennis shares thoughts too, but only few ones!!

Hugs!

[brokeplex]

Thanks brokeplex!

But I do not think that Ennis would have hugged Jack then?? !!

Certainly not kissed Jack!! ??

That, to me, were 2 gestures, much too early in their relationtionship!! ?? To you too?

Sure Jack talks about his dad peeing on him... and Ennis shares thoughts too, but only few ones!!

Hugs!

These are two separate issues Artiste.

issue # 1) Ennis and Jack hugging and kissing - yes they hugged, and in the privacy of the tent they kissed.

issue #2) pissing , I think that way too much has been made of this pissing issue. Rural people piss on trees! no big deal. OMT pissed on young Jack to teach him to get his drawers down in time when he goes to the bathroom, nasty lesson, but IT WASHES OFF! lesson learned by Jack. zip down in time!!!!!

As far as the symbolism of the pissing, yes I see that. but, don't overdo it!

have a great day!

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

I agree with you on that pissing by OMT on Jack scene as teaching guide... in a way then!

However, Ennis hugging Jack... that so early in their relationship, I question that!!

And utmostly question Ennis ever kissing back Jack!!  I never seen an Ennis kiss me... in the past nor another gay man!!

Jack just got lucky, not only by being pissed upon by his dad, but surely by hugging Ennis, and unbelievably got a kiss back from Ennis?? !!  Wow, sure would like a gay man tell me his real story to find if that ever happenned in his own life?? !!

Hugs!!

[brokeplex]

Thanks brokeplex!

I agree with you on that pissing by OMT on Jack scene as teaching guide... in a way then!

However, Ennis hugging Jack... that so early in their relationship, I question that!!

And utmostly question Ennis ever kissing back Jack!!  I never seen an Ennis kiss me... in the past nor another gay man!!

Jack just got lucky, not only by being pissed upon by his dad, but surely by hugging Ennis, and unbelievably got a kiss back from Ennis?? !!  Wow, sure would like a gay man tell me his real story to find if that ever happenned in his own life?? !!

Hugs!!

Artiste, look at the movie again. Look first at the scene where the boys sit together on the ground atop the grazing slopes of the mountain and declare to each other that "I'm not Queer". "Well, I'm not either." "Its nobodys business but ours". "Its a one shot thing we got going here". This is what I call the "Denial Scene",very, very important scene to watch in order to understand the boys and how their lives would unfold over the next 20 years.

In the next scene, the "Romantic Scene" takes place by the dazzling firelight, with Ennis shly enters into the tent. Jack takes him, hugs him, kisses him, and then gets on top of him and continues to kiss him. In his mind Ennis is far away, in denial that it is Jack who is arousing him, but Ennis is physically there.

So, you want a gay man to tell you that he has been hugged and kissed under such circumstances by a "straight man" in deep denial?  OK, I'm as GAY, and similar scenarios have worked their way into my life several times. Are you satisfied now?

Artiste, I love the way you make me think about and justify my observations about the movie. You are a great teacher, using your relentless "Socratic" method. Have you ever been a teacher or a trainer? You would make a great one! 

[Artiste]

Thanks very much brokeplex!

It is true then as in the BM movie, and even to-day that fathers seem to be bad ones towards their gay son(s) in movies!! ??

Am sure that many fathers do act like pissing on their son(s) because they think he or they are gay?? !! Even to-day! Maybe even murder?

Brokeplex: In the sixties and even before, all gay men said so for fear of death or being placed in an mental place: I'm not queer!!  Any difference to-day in our democratic countries?

In islamic countries and others... they murder gays to-day!! In some others countries, they place you (us gay men) in prison or in a mental institution for life, or beat you up... are some reports!  Maybe the pissing scene talked about is not that uncommon in those countries nor in ours these days??

Hugs!

[brokeplex]

Thanks very much brokeplex!

It is true then as in the BM movie, and even to-day that fathers seem to be bad ones towards their gay son(s) in movies!! ??

Am sure that many fathers do act like pissing on their son(s) because they think he or they are gay?? !! Even to-day! Maybe even murder?

Brokeplex: In the sixties and even before, all gay men said so for fear of death or being placed in an mental place: I'm not queer!!  Any difference to-day in our democratic countries?

In islamic countries and others... they murder gays to-day!! In some others countries, they place you (us gay men) in prison or in a mental institution for life, or beat you up... are some reports!  Maybe the pissing scene talked about is not that uncommon in those countries nor in ours these days??

Hugs!

I see your point about the symbolic meaning of "pissing" to show contempt. The symbolic pissing of OMT on little Jack shows his alienation from his son. And you are correct about the murder of gay men in Islamic countries. Just last week, one of the Grand Poo-bahs in the leadership in Iran stated in an official state address that all gay Iranian men should be hanged until dead. This is a huge human rights issue, and I was delighted to see that the President of Columbia University stated this concern right in the face of the current President of Iran when he paid a visit to Columbia University last month.