Author Topic: tent scene, in the short story.  (Read 12124 times)

Offline starboardlight

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tent scene, in the short story.
« on: May 14, 2006, 05:22:56 pm »
"Too late to go out to them damn sheep," said Ennis, dizzy drunk on all fours one cold hour when the moon had notched past two. The meadow stones glowed white-green and a flinty wind worked over the meadow, scraped the fire low, then ruffled it into yellow silk sashes. "Got you a extra blanket I'll roll up out here and grab forty winks, ride out at first light."
"Freeze your ass off when that fire dies down. Better off sleepin in the tent."
"Doubt I'll feel nothin." But he staggered under canvas, pulled his boots off, snored on the ground cloth for a while, woke Jack with the clacking of his jaw.
"Jesus Christ, quit hammerin and get over here. Bedroll's big enough," said Jack in an irritable sleep-clogged voice. It was big enough, warm enough, and in a little while they deepened their intimacy considerably. Ennis ran full-throttle on all roads whether fence mending or money spending, and he wanted none of it when Jack seized his left hand and brought it to his erect cock. Ennis jerked his hand away as though he'd touched fire, got to his knees, unbuckled his belt, shoved his pants down, hauled Jack onto all fours and, with the help of the clear slick and a little spit, entered him, nothing he'd done before but no instruction manual needed. They went at it in silence except for a few sharp intakes of breath and Jack's choked "gun's goin off," then out, down, and asleep. "

From reading it again, I'm getting the sense that it was more mutually started than in the film. Ennis didn't start out sleeping outside but rather went into the tent right off the bat. They had gotten intimate even before Jack put Ennis's hand there.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2006, 05:56:48 pm »
From reading it again, I'm getting the sense that it was more mutually started than in the film. Ennis didn't start out sleeping outside but rather went into the tent right off the bat. They had gotten intimate even before Jack put Ennis's hand there.

I've had that sense, too, star. That's one of the reasons I find the movie characters more complex and distinct. The  idea of Ennis struggling with his own homophobia, one of the major themes if not THE major theme of the movie, is almost absent in the story.

When Ennis wakes up, jolts upright -- then stops, thinks about it, changes his mind, and moves slowly toward Jack ... well, that may be my very favorite moment of the movie.


TJ

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2006, 12:36:32 am »
It was big enough, warm enough, and in a little while they deepened their intimacy considerably.

The screenplay writers and/or the movie makers ignored what is in the quoted sentence which was even in the New Yorker Magazine version of the short story.

I say that when Jack felt the rise in Ennis's Levi's, the reason that took Ennis's left hand and put it on his (Jack's) erect cock was to show Ennis that he was just a horny, too.

And, knowing how to camp in cool weather and how to more more comfortably warm when sleeping in a bedroll or sleeping bag, I say that more than likely since Jack was an experienced Brokeback Mountain camper, he was probably sleeping naked.

In the book, Ennis slept, even snored, on the canvas floor of the tent before he woke Jack up with his teeth chattering, aka jaw clattering, from the cold. (Ennis did not lie down out in the open air by the campfire as in the movie.)

So, I say that there was some foreplay before they actually had anal intercourse. The reason that Ennis was the top, he liked to be the first to do things when given the chance.

Offline maggiesmommy GayLee

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2006, 01:29:15 am »
i noticed something about this scene when i watched  with the subs on...it doesn't say "hammerin" it says "yammerin"?
that's new to me...anyone else??
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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2006, 01:54:40 am »
When I watched the DVD with a friend this afternoon, both my friend, Ron, and I noticed that sometimes what was said by the actors was not the same as in the subtitles. And sometimes what was in the subtitles was not even said at all in the scene. And, sometimes when the actors talked, there was nothing as a subtitle.

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2006, 02:56:06 am »
i noticed something about this scene when i watched  with the subs on...it doesn't say "hammerin" it says "yammerin"?
that's new to me...anyone else??

Yes, I noticed that.  The subtitiles are wrong, of course.  :)  They are pretty accurate subtitles most of the movie, but there are a few errors.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2006, 08:57:46 am »
No wonder Story Ennis was so cold his jaws were clacking. It was already established that Story Ennis doesn't even wear socks, yet he took his boots off to sleep on what was presumable a cold night.

I think TJ raises an interesting point that I don't think I've ever seen discussed anywhere, in relation to either the story or the film. While AP gives us no direct evidence for it, was Ennis already hard when Jack put his (Ennis's) hand on his own (Jack's) erection?

Um, if I may speak from personal experience, this is a completely logical assumption under the circumstances. ...  ::)
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2006, 09:39:43 am »
I think TJ raises an interesting point that I don't think I've ever seen discussed anywhere, in relation to either the story or the film. While AP gives us no direct evidence for it, was Ennis already hard when Jack put his (Ennis's) hand on his own (Jack's) erection?

Um, if I may speak from personal experience, this is a completely logical assumption under the circumstances. ...  ::)

Maybe. It does make a lot of sense in the story context. But Movie Jack couldn't have known either way.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2006, 09:42:19 am »
Maybe. It does make a lot of sense in the story context. But Movie Jack couldn't have known either way.

I don't remember: Is movie Ennis lying on his side facing Jack's back?
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Offline silkncense

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2006, 10:02:38 am »
Quote
They had gotten intimate even before Jack put Ennis's hand there.

I understand it that although they were sleeping in the same bedroll, they became intimate shortly after Jack placed Ennis' hand on his (Jack's) erection.  Annie is foreshadowing what she was about to describe, IMHO.

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Offline Rayn

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2006, 10:53:59 am »
I have trouble understanding what people go on about with the tent scene in the book or the movie.  What's important to me is the response Ennis had to Jack and Jack had to Ennis.  Without doubt the attraction they had for each other from the beginning turned into real affection, friendship and lasting love, love that was stronger than any homophobia in either of them, any fear of externals, any marriage to or love of wives, even their love of thier children wasn't as strong as their love for each other.  That's what's true and important to me and make the book and movie so real, so memorable.  Well written, well crafted love stories are usually like that.

Rayn

Offline serious crayons

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2006, 12:08:38 pm »
I don't remember: Is movie Ennis lying on his side facing Jack's back?

Ennis is lying on his back asleep, and Jack is on his side with his back to Ennis. Then Jack wakes up, reaches back, grabs Ennis' hand, pulls it over him and places it in position. Which causes Ennis to turn on his side toward Jack. A couple of seconds later Ennis wakes up, sees/feels what's going on, and lurches away. (Jeff, I'm beginning to feel like Lureen lecturing Jack on how Ennis should drive down to Texas for a change -- that is, I know it's none of my business -- but you really should watch that DVD again! I guarantee you it will be fun. OK, I promise that is the last time I'll mention it.)

I have trouble understanding what people go on about with the tent scene in the book or the movie.  What's important to me is the response Ennis had to Jack and Jack had to Ennis.  Without doubt the attraction they had for each other from the beginning turned into real affection, friendship and lasting love, love that was stronger than any homophobia in either of them, any fear of externals, any marriage to or love of wives, even their love of thier children wasn't as strong as their love for each other.  That's what's true and important to me and make the book and movie so real, so memorable.  Well written, well crafted love stories are usually like that.

Rayn, I agree with everything you say here. But I have trouble understanding what it is you have trouble understanding.

Offline starboardlight

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2006, 01:44:02 pm »
I understand it that although they were sleeping in the same bedroll, they became intimate shortly after Jack placed Ennis' hand on his (Jack's) erection.  Annie is foreshadowing what she was about to describe, IMHO.



i had thought that too, but rereading the passage, it seems that the intimacy started before. Maybe that simply meant that they, in sleepy haze, cuddled?
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Offline welliwont

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2006, 08:47:35 pm »
....it doesn't say "hammerin" it says "yammerin"?
that's new to me...anyone else??

I see errors in closed caption all the time...  nothing new.  That is why I do not believe the cc in the SNIT --  oops!  almost went into forbidden territory there! LOL
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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2006, 09:48:34 pm »
No wonder Story Ennis was so cold his jaws were clacking. It was already established that Story Ennis doesn't even wear socks, yet he took his boots off to sleep on what was presumable a cold night.

I think TJ raises an interesting point that I don't think I've ever seen discussed anywhere, in relation to either the story or the film. While AP gives us no direct evidence for it, was Ennis already hard when Jack put his (Ennis's) hand on his own (Jack's) erection?

Um, if I may speak from personal experience, this is a completely logical assumption under the circumstances. ...  ::)

The Story Ennis did not even own underwear in 1963. And, while Jack might have an extra blanket, the book does not say.

Speaking from personal experience, too, and knowing how there is an "evidence of clear slick" which usually only appears when a man is sexually aroused or being made so, I believe that Ennis did already have an erection. And, unless there has been lots and lots and lots of foreplay for a man, a little more lubrication, like spit, is needed for better ease to enter.

IMO, the scene is too abrupt and knowing the personality of Ennis and how he would have reacted if Jack had suddenly forced Ennis to touch his penis, I just believe that Ennis Del Mar would have given Jack Twist an attitude adjustment first, by slugging him, and then ask questions later.

Anyone who would say "I'm not no queer" and literally believed that to be true about himself and be an Ennis type, too, would not have let another man even touch him if sex was going to be involved.

TJ

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2006, 09:52:27 pm »
i had thought that too, but rereading the passage, it seems that the intimacy started before. Maybe that simply meant that they, in sleepy haze, cuddled?

Oh, I think that they were wide awake when they had the deepened intimacy. Ennis had slept off some of his "dizzy drunk"-ness before he woke Jack up. Ennis had snored first. The intimacy began shortly Ennis got into Jack's bedroll; it might have started with Jack trying get Ennis physically warm.

Offline RouxB

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2006, 11:25:44 pm »
I think Silk it correct-the deeping of the intimacy was a foreshadowing of what was about to take place. The hand on cock and subsequent coupling was the deepened intimacy.

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Offline Rayn

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2006, 02:12:51 am »
Rayn, I agree with everything you say here. But I have trouble understanding what it is you have trouble understanding.

Oh, just that all the seemingly endless talk of small details in book or movie or book vs movie:  It appears these threads often miss the important messages in the "big picture", you know, the larger details?   Besides, I find trying to keep up with every detail of what character placed his or her hand on his or her wrist or throat or whether someone was looking at "his mouth" instead of "his eyes" really a bit much to keep up with, so, I don't, but if you like that sort of thing... have at it!

Smile....
Rayn
« Last Edit: May 16, 2006, 02:14:33 am by Rayn »

Offline serious crayons

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2006, 08:35:14 am »
Oh, just that all the seemingly endless talk of small details in book or movie or book vs movie:  It appears these threads often miss the important messages in the "big picture", you know, the larger details?   Besides, I find trying to keep up with every detail of what character placed his or her hand on his or her wrist or throat or whether someone was looking at "his mouth" instead of "his eyes" really a bit much to keep up with, so, I don't, but if you like that sort of thing... have at it!

Smile....
Rayn

I think part of it is, we all long to talk about ANYTHING involving this movie, so people find whatever they can to discuss and be interested in. And maybe we feel we're running out of things to say about the big picture. I sure hope not! If you have ideas for big picture topics for threads, Rayn, I encourage you to start them! I promise I will contribute!

The other thing is that, in the movie at least, a lot of those questions like who looked at who when and who put his hand where are actually often important in showing what people are thinking. For instance, in the tent scene, it's a big turning point when Ennis pauses to look at Jack and moves toward him and then throws him off and then grabs him. And the hand-holding is telling. In other scenes, eye contact that's held a beat longer than normal is often really revealing. And so on. It doesn't always mean something, but many times it does, so it seems worth pinning down those details.


« Last Edit: May 16, 2006, 11:50:50 am by latjoreme »

Offline starboardlight

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2006, 11:47:23 am »
I think part of it is, we all long to talk about ANYTHING involving this movie, so people find whatever they can to discuss and be interested in. And maybe we feel we're running out of things to say about the big picture. I sure hope not! If you have ideas for big picture topics for threads, Rayn, I encourage you to start them! I promise I will contribute!

The other thing is that, in the movie at least, a lot of those questions like who looked at who when and who put his hand where are actually often important in showing what people are thinking. For instance, in the tent scene, it's a big turning point when Ennis pauses to look at Jack and moves toward him and then throws him off and then grabs him is a big turning point. And the hand-holding is telling. In other scenes, eye contact that's held a beat longer than normal is often really revealing. And so on. It doesn't always mean something, but many times it does, so it seems worth pinning down those details.




yep, i do think the small details sometimes reveal something about the bigger picture. in this case, I'm just taking note of the fact that Ennis, in the short story, was not as conflicted about being intimate with Jack. He didn't pull away, but rather ran full throttle with it.
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2006, 11:56:04 am »
yep, i do think the small details sometimes reveal something about the bigger picture. in this case, I'm just taking note of the fact that Ennis, in the short story, was not as conflicted about being intimate with Jack. He didn't pull away, but rather ran full throttle with it.

Definitely. So how do you feel about that, Nipith? Personally, I like the movie's version better. Ennis' inner struggle, and ultimate conquering of his fears, makes the situation more interesting for me. But perhaps others have different opinions ...

Offline starboardlight

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2006, 02:54:10 pm »
Definitely. So how do you feel about that, Nipith? Personally, I like the movie's version better. Ennis' inner struggle, and ultimate conquering of his fears, makes the situation more interesting for me. But perhaps others have different opinions ...

I'm not sure how I feel about it. I certainly agree that both Ennis and Jack are more fleshed out in the film. I didn't get a very good sense of what Jack is like in the story, where as in the film, I can almost wrap my arms around him.

With Ennis, I kinda want to take what I get from the story into the movie. I want to see him as clearly understanding that he's queer but just doesn't know how to fit into the world, not being able to envision a life as a queer man, being afraid of other people finding out. I want to see his fear as that of the consequences as oppose to being afraid to be who he is. I haven't made up my mind if that is the case or not in the film.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2006, 03:14:19 pm »
With Ennis, I kinda want to take what I get from the story into the movie. I want to see him as clearly understanding that he's queer but just doesn't know how to fit into the world, not being able to envision a life as a queer man, being afraid of other people finding out. I want to see his fear as that of the consequences as oppose to being afraid to be who he is. I haven't made up my mind if that is the case or not in the film.

No, in my opinion the Ennis you describe is Story Ennis. I think Move Ennis IS afraid to be who he is. But actually that's what I like about him. To me, that sets his love of Jack against greater odds and greater stakes -- thereby intensifying the importance of their relationship. And it makes his emotional journey longer, thus more moving.

Offline starboardlight

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2006, 04:07:09 pm »
No, in my opinion the Ennis you describe is Story Ennis. I think Move Ennis IS afraid to be who he is. But actually that's what I like about him. To me, that sets his love of Jack against greater odds and greater stakes -- thereby intensifying the importance of their relationship. And it makes his emotional journey longer, thus more moving.


i see where you're coming from. having been that "Ennis" at one point, I know how unbearably painful to hate yourself so much. I guess I want Ennis to have move forward from there a little, just to lighten his burden a bit. It breaks my heart too much to think of him that way.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2006, 04:17:20 pm »
Well, by the end of the movie he has, right? Too late, unfortunately. But yes, that's what I mean, I find the movie more heartbreaking than the story for that very reason.

Offline Rayn

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2006, 10:37:35 am »
And so on. It doesn't always mean something, but many times it does, so it seems worth pinning down those details.


Like I said, "...if you like that sort of thing... have at it!"

Rayn


Offline starboardlight

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2006, 12:37:13 pm »
But, "Ennis' inner struggle, and ultimate conquering of his fears," are actually in the original short story as published in "Close Range."

He never quite conquers his fears in the last pages of the story; but, in the opening italicized paragraphs, it seems that he has become more accepting of his former relationship with Jack as evidenced in his last day on the Stoutamire ranch before he goes to stay with his married daughter.

The way that Annie Proulx wrote those two paragraphs at the start of the Dead Line, Ltd., copyright 1997, version of the story, it makes me think that if Ennis were to meet another man toward whom he felt sexually attracted, he might begin a relationship with him if he also liked him very much, too . . . AND feel in love with him like he was with Jack Twist. It took about or more than 20 years for Ennis to decide that he had been in love with Jack since the summer of 1963.

but what exactly is that fear? fear of being himself? or fear of the world not accepting him? I think that's what my original post was getting at. In that description, he didn't seem too uncomfortable to get intimate with Jack. For me it's evidence that he isn't struggling so much with being queer. Even AP's "You know I ain't queer" description was rather dismissive, as if she means to suggest that neither of them believed it. To me his fear comes from not being able to see a place in the world for himself.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2006, 12:47:28 pm »
Even AP's "You know I ain't queer" description was rather dismissive, as if she means to suggest that neither of them believed it.

That's funny. I just finished writing this, in so many words, on the "job switch" thread.

Offline starboardlight

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2006, 12:53:45 pm »
That's funny. I just finished writing this, in so many words, on the "job switch" thread.


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Offline opinionista

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2006, 04:37:03 pm »
Quote
It was big enough, warm enough, and in a little while they deepened their intimacy considerably.

The screenplay writers and/or the movie makers ignored what is in the quoted sentence which was even in the New Yorker Magazine version of the short story.

I say that when Jack felt the rise in Ennis's Levi's, the reason that took Ennis's left hand and put it on his (Jack's) erect cock was to show Ennis that he was just a horny, too.

I hadn't think of it.  But it makes sense. Jack couldn't just grab Ennis hand out of the blue. Something made him do it.
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Offline opinionista

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #30 on: May 20, 2006, 08:33:15 am »
Quote
He also suffers from heterosexism in the belief that he has to have sex with women to be a real man. That kind of suffering is actually internalized heterophobia, which is literally, the "fear of being different," or the fear of not being thought of as a real man

I agree. That's practically the reason why he decides to have a relationship with Cassie. Ennis was not only feeling lonely, he was also scared to death, and was beginning to actually picture himself as different for the first time. I think that was fueled by Alma's confrontation during the Thanksgiving dinner, when she tells him she knows about Jack and him.
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Offline bbm_stitchbuffyfan

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #31 on: May 20, 2006, 10:29:13 am »
Quote
IMO, the scene is too abrupt and knowing the personality of Ennis and how he would have reacted if Jack had suddenly forced Ennis to touch his penis, I just believe that Ennis Del Mar would have given Jack Twist an attitude adjustment first, by slugging him, and then ask questions later.

Anyone who would say "I'm not no queer" and literally believed that to be true about himself and be an Ennis type, too, would not have let another man even touch him if sex was going to be involved.

Well, the scene worked brilliantly for me. I believe Ennis wanted Jack; he immensely enjoyed Jack’s company, was secretly attracted to him (perhaps on a sub-conscious level?), and lusted for him. I think a lot of the subtleties preceding the consummation of their relationship build up to the scene.

See I think Ennis wanted to believe he was straight but on the inside, he knew. He just could not come to terms with his sexual orientation.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: tent scene, in the short story.
« Reply #32 on: May 20, 2006, 10:35:12 am »
Well, the scene worked brilliantly for me. I believe Ennis wanted Jack; he immensely enjoyed Jack’s company, was secretly attracted to him (perhaps on a sub-conscious level?), and lusted for him. I think a lot of the subtleties preceding the consummation of their relationship build up to the scene.

See I think Ennis wanted to believe he was straight but on the inside, he knew. He just could not come to terms with his sexual orientation.

Stitchbuffyfan, that is exactly how I read it. I think Ennis was mostly taken by surprise by Jack's move, but he was at least partly aware that he was attracted to Jack. In those moments after they sit up in the tent, Ennis sees what's going on, weighs his options, and decides to set aside his reservations and go for it.