Author Topic: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?  (Read 39276 times)

Offline Penthesilea

  • Town Administration
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,745
TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« on: November 12, 2007, 08:02:29 am »
Hey BetterMostians,

lovely Monday morning here in Germany, cold but finally sunny after a row of dull and rainy days. Hope we all will have a sunny week, and if you don't you just keep running to this here place and I'll comfort you with a piece a cherry cake  :).
'nuff chitchat, on with business now:


This week we have another premiere for our TOTW  :D. Yep, a poll is joined with this week's topic. Of course voting in the poll is not required to take part in the discussion and vice versa you may vote without elaborating further in the thread. But I hope not everybody will get lazy here and sneak away with only one click ;).

As you may have noticed, we don't stick to the concept of closed questions for the TsOTW like it were gospel. Sometimes it just doesn't make sense to phrase a question so it can be answered with a simple yes or no. Therefore I changed the guidelines for the TOTW from "always a closed question" to "mostly a closed question".
You haven't read the introduction of the TOTW feature yet? Here it is: Read here to learn more about the TOTW feature

Also I'd like to remind everybody that you are welcome to suggest topics to discuss within this feature.

This week's topic was suggested by brokebackjack. Thank you Jack :).



Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?

There's a wide range of opinions; some prefer one very clearly with caring only little about the other; some prefer one but still like the other very much and some may just like them equally. Where's your stand in this range?

Additional info about the poll: you can select only one option, but you can remove your vote and take a new one if you change your mind.


« Last Edit: November 14, 2007, 06:53:00 am by Penthesilea »

Scott6373

  • Guest
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2007, 08:30:13 am »
My opinion isn't based on which I think is better, but I generally prefer books to film.  I find I can let my imagination work in a less constrained manner when I have to mentally visualize something rather than have the images shot into my head,

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2007, 10:47:43 am »
I went with "both equally" because for me the short story and the film are just different aspects or parts of one single phenomenon known as Brokeback Mountain.

And of course, had there been no short story, there would have been no film.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2007, 12:00:23 pm »
I love both the film and the story.  Of course!  But, I have to say I don't love them quite equally, so I had to vote for the film on this one.

I saw the film before I read the story so I'm sure that's one factor in my reaction.  And, in discussions here on Open Forum, etc., I usually find myself basing my interpretations on my impressions of the film more than the story (usually).  I also am a huge film-lover in general... and in grad school I was a T.A. for two film history/theory courses, so that may be a factor in my gravitation towards the film too.

But, I really do love the story too.  Proulx's use of language is exquisite.  My favorite elements of the story are her turns-of-phrase and really unique methods of description.  Also, her descriptions of nature are stunning and really deeply meaningful.  I love the beginning italicized prologue in the Close Range version of the story (the whole trailer scene) and I love, love, love the writing at the end of the story.

In general, though, I tend to feel much more emotionally drawn-in by the Jack and Ennis of the film vs. the story versions.  The emotional wallop I feel when I watch the film is not as intense as the emotional impact of the story for me.  The emotional impact of the story for me is more subtle.


the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline tampatalon

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 823
  • Never Enuff Time
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2007, 12:20:57 pm »
Movie or the Canon, This is certainly a very difficult choice! I am naturaly in love with the movie but when it comes down to it, I prefer the Canon. If I want to look up a detail I refer to the Canon. I believe the story of Brokeback is real even though places and the timeline are possibly skewed to protect the real people. Therefore, I more treasure and prefer the Canon.

TampaTalon^">
"Lean on me, Let our hearts beat in time, Feel strength from the hands that have held you so long. Who cares where we go on this rutted old road, In a world that may say that we're wrong."--EmmyLou Harris

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2007, 12:49:11 pm »
Chrissi... you know, when the opera of BBM comes out you'll be able to add another option to this question!
 :laugh: ;D

I wonder how people who saw the play of BBM that occurred in Europe a while back feel about the stage-version of BBM compared to the story and the film?

 It's amazing how many "official" versions of this story there are now... especially if you count the Close Range and New Yorker versions of the story as different.  It's actually someting I really love about BBM... that it keeps on going and it takes on many forms.
:)

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline brokebackjack

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 817
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2007, 04:12:03 am »
I love them both.
The film gives a visuality to the short story which i do not think I would have been able to attain in my own head. It brought the characters alive....gave them a face so to speak. It did indeed flesh out Annie's sketchily drawn 'other characters', did indeed bring Jack Twist to life with a bang. [pun intended]. It had an impact which no film had ever had with me.

Insofar as I am concerned it was as faithful to the book as a film could be.

The short story became more awesome with each reading. It made me ask questions, made me want to do things. Eventually it made me want to ask the author questions, which she was gracious enough to answer. Her answers led to more questions and a great deal of analysis, by ME.

Eventually it made me want to write myself. When I did, and wanted criticism of my story, the person to do it was right there, waiting.

That story of Annie's did something which had never been done before, in that it used the principles of classical tragedy within a short story format. That's what Brokeback Mountain is in all its essentials>>>a Greek Tragedy. It is why it bites so damned deep, why there is no need for obvious contrivances to mar its simplicity.

She managed to change the short story itself as we know it, in English.
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline jstephens9

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,327
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2007, 04:53:40 pm »
I would have to vote for the movie although like others have said the book is definitely excellent. I saw the movie long before I read the book. I actually am quite glad that I had not read the book when I first saw the movie. The ending completely took me by surprise 100%. If I would have read the book first I would have known what was going to happen. For some reason when I watched the movie I was thinking, maybe hoping, for a happy ending. Obviously, that is not what happened. I still remember when I saw the "Deceased" on the postcard. I absolutely could not believe that Jack could be dead. So anyway by seeing the movie way ahead of reading the book I think of Heath and Jake when I hear the names Ennis and Jack. It will always remain that way for me. In fact, that is true of all the characters in the movie and the book. I have never been struck by a movie like Brokeback. I remember hearing about it long before it came out. I even remembering writing the title down, but I didn't go rushing to see it when it came out. I completely and totally never expected for that movie, or any movie, to have that kind of affect on me. I am still surprised somewhat. I'm not even a big movie watcher. I remember I wanted to see it before the Oscars simply to say that I had seen it. But again, I never thought it would be like it is. I didn't even know who Heath Ledger or Jake Gyllenhaal were. Anyway, like someone else said, the book never has never had the affect on me that the movie does. Of course, I am glad for the book because without it there would be no movie.

Jack

Offline delalluvia

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,289
  • "Truth is an iron bride"
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2007, 02:05:06 am »
Both.

They're two different artistic mediums and both have the same story to tell, but tell it in two different ways that affect you in two different ways, but just as impacting either way.  :)

Offline brokebackjack

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 817
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2007, 08:15:59 am »
I do have to agree with Jack and say I had never read the book before seeing the film. It was a complete shock, that 'deceased' stamp...

It took a while to get into the book. [a few days lolol] When I read it I was numb, but...but I kept going back. Afrter a certain point I started dissecting it down to the punctuation and ended by believing it to be  the finest story in English since Faulkner was in his prime.

It is PERFECT.

Yet the author still--to this day, late in 2007--tinkers with it. There are several versions of BBM out there, all minutely different. [ for info, pm rodneywy]
Why?
AP keeps tinkering with it. She is the original brokie. It is said she wrote an Ennis story for herself, because she could not sleep wondering what he was going to do....

One can't reach for perfection without trying to make it even more....perfect, can we? It's a human thing, I think. I just started rewriting my best story due to a few offhand comments about the use of the word 'tiny' in BBM by Canstandit and ministering angel. It made me realise I had left out a huge possibility within my own story, with a word I did not develop fully....a word which has great significance, used  several times in regard to one freeze-frame, without developing the end result. When I send the new one up to the person editing it I think I will say you are right, lets publish it LOLOL. This is number what, 29!!! I should be very happy I ain't Annie Proulx with her 60+ admitted revisions of Brokeback roflmao!!!

By the way, she is working on the second story in "the quartet of offbeat love stories " which BBM was intended to be part of.

How she will outdo BBM is anybodies guess!
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2007, 11:08:13 am »
I read the short story a few years before the release of the movie. The stark, terse honest prose that AP uses in "Brokeback Mountain" reminds me of the windswept Northern Rockies and the people I have met while visiting there. I can't get away from that short story. I can't get away from any of AP's works of fiction. They haunt me.
I was more directly and strongly affected by the movie than the short story. Ang Lee's movie has changed and challenged me more than any other movie I have ever seen. But, I think over the years, it is the short story I will return to more often, when I want to remember.

Offline jstephens9

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,327
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2007, 12:42:41 pm »
Jack, where is your story located? I would love to read it. As much as it seems we talked at the BBQ and in email since I never knew you wrote. I actually do too and I have all my life. I used to want to be a writer, but for some reason it seems that my writing has gone downhill  :( That is really something that Annie has looked at your work. Now that is a privilege to say the least.

Anyway, back to the topic  :D I had no idea that Annie continued to tinker with the Brokeback story. I will have to contact Rodney to find where I can find those different versions. It would be GREAT to read her Ennis story; however, I bet it is under major lock and key somewhere. It sure would answer a lot of our questions as to what she envisions happening to Ennis. But then of course, do we really want to know  :-\ I also look forward to the second story.

Also, even though I chose the movie, I definitely do not want anyone to think that I do not highly value the book. It is EXCELLENT. Like I say and you say, I still am very glad I saw the movie first.

And have I told you Jack, how glad I am that you are here at Bettermost  ;D I think so, but it is worth repeating.

Jack

Offline Shakesthecoffecan

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 9,566
  • Those were the days, Alberta 2007.
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2007, 12:48:39 pm »
This whole experence is a duality to me. I cannot pick between Jake or heath who I like better, and I like both the movie and short story for different reasons.
"It was only you in my life, and it will always be only you, Jack, I swear."

Offline brokebackjack

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 817
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #13 on: November 16, 2007, 10:07:03 pm »
yikes

thou hast misunderstood, I am not kissy-kissy with AP

lol
lol
lol
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline jstephens9

  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,327
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #14 on: November 16, 2007, 10:42:35 pm »
 ;D

Marge_Innavera

  • Guest
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2007, 01:13:33 pm »
I saw the movie before I read the story, and that might have influenced my "like the movie best" vote. But frankly, while I thought the story was wonderful, it just didn't haunt me the way the movie did, nor did I feel compelled to read it over and over, although I have read it several times. And I doubt very seriously that this and other Brokeback-themed forums would exist if the short story had never been made into film.

But, of course, the film would not exist without the story.

Offline Oregondoggie

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Mountain Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 185
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2007, 02:31:36 pm »
Book or Movie?  It's like choosing Jack or Ennis.  Got run over by both of 'em.  Maybe book more because I had had dreams of my own Ennis for years... book sure stoked my memories of him. 

Then along came the movie, the fire storm that brought regrowth through the forums and new friends.

But once in a while, I like to hole up with the short story on the Oregon Coast and let the wind read the lines.   


Offline Brokeback_Dev

  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *******
  • Posts: 5,985
  • Love is a force of nature
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #17 on: November 18, 2007, 12:37:23 am »
I like them both equally.   Both touched my soul in no way any other story or movie has.

Offline huntinbuddy

  • Sr. Ranch Hand
  • ***
  • Posts: 127
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #18 on: November 18, 2007, 10:34:58 pm »
I seen the film first and then read the short story.  Both are excellent.  Ang Lee's direction and the cinematography he used is astounding.  About the only thing that comes close is Gone With the Wind.  However, Margret Mitchell's book was a huge thing that takes days to read, yet Annie Proulx told a similar sweeping epic and it can be read in an hour!  Her writing is like a Mozart opera; take one phrase out and it will be greatly diminished.

Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #19 on: November 18, 2007, 10:50:07 pm »
I seen the film first and then read the short story.  Both are excellent.   Her writing is like a Mozart opera; take one phrase out and it will be greatly diminished.

Excellent point about the economy of words AP uses! And your comment about Mozart reminded me of a scene in "Amadeus" when Mozart is interviewed by the Emperor Joseph and his toadies. Joseph remarks to Mozart that his Opera has "too many notes". Mozart responds, "which would you remove your majesty?" LOL!


Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #20 on: November 18, 2007, 11:28:59 pm »
I read the story several years before I saw the movie and thought it was excellent as literature. The imagery, the use of language, the amazing plot -- no one had ever written anything like it before ...

But after reading and appreciating it, I moved on. I was not floored by the story. I did not seek an internet message board to discuss it.

The movie is what really made an emotional impact on me. Why? Well, for one thing, although the movie is spare and understated, it is not as zealously unsentimental as the story. The movie doesn't prod emotions, but it doesn't skitter from them, either. In my mind, Annie Proulx did everything she could to avoid being saccharine, and although in general I like that tendency and think it adds to the story's power, her spareness it was so extreme as to ultimately be, for me, off-putting. Some of the elements used to undercut otherwise touching moments -- "he missed Ennis bad enough sometimes to make him whip babies," the flashback of Jack's dad peeing on him -- were just a bit too ascetic.

Also, to me the movie characters had more depth. We've talked about how Movie Ennis, particularly, is different from Story Ennis. Well, I understand Movie Ennis better, and his emotional turmoil seems more complex and tragic to me. Story Ennis is depicted as declining Jack's "sweet life" offer primarily out of a pragmatic fear of violence; Movie Ennis, it is clear, rejects Jack's invitation much more because of internal conflicts. I also can see the distinctions more clearly between Movie Ennis and Movie Jack than I do between Story Ennis and Story Jack. In the first, they are almost opposites. In the second, they are more similar, just with kind of different opinions. Ultimately, the movie characters had more impact on me.

And finally -- this might seem silly, but -- the dialect in the story was a bit of a turn-off, for me. It was so extreme as to make the characters seem kind of cartoony. I have lived in the West for short periods, but I haven't spent enough time there to know if there are people who really talk like that -- and, if so, my bad. But the characters in the movie talked more like people I'm familiar with, and I could relate to them better because of it.



« Last Edit: November 19, 2007, 09:41:50 am by ineedcrayons »

Offline Oregondoggie

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Mountain Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 185
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2007, 05:26:17 am »
Well I was clobbered by the story.  Tried reading it aloud to a group of friends just after the movie came out.  Got as far in the beginning as..."If he does not force his attention on it, it might stoke the day, rewarm that old, cold time on the mountain when they owned the world and nothing seemed wrong."  Had to stop.  Had to be comforted.  I could not breathe. 

This is not simply a fine story.  It is one of the most powerful ever written.  It will spawn another film in due time with new young actors, fresh reactions.  And, like Romeo And Juliet, it will be interpreted on the stage and (possibly) in dance and opera.

The movie had one advantage not mentioned so far in this discussion:  Santoalalla's music.  Beyond sublime.

Offline brokebackjack

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 817
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2007, 05:25:49 am »
You know, not for nothing I am really really glad I asked Crissy to have this as TOW.
There have been some wonderful things said here, buds!
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2007, 07:29:35 pm »
I prefer Annie's story.

As it seems to me less violent towards gay men, such as I am!!

To me, the movie is pro-violent for cirminals toward a gay man or gay men!!

Hugs!

Offline brokebackjack

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 817
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2007, 09:51:57 pm »
Artiste, you continually amaze me!! lol

How in God's name do you come to the conclusion that BBM the film is PRO-ANTIGAY-VIOLENCE?

You have to be the only gay person alive--or perhaps the only person who saw the film, anywhere, who thinks it was antigay !

But the story, yes, it is superb.
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #25 on: November 20, 2007, 11:44:08 pm »
Insofar as I am concerned it was as faithful to the book as a film could be.

This was the first major impression that the film had on me, its faithfulness to the story. I've known the story since its first publication in The New Yorker and actually went out and bought the Scribner's edition and read it again, so it was really fresh in my mind when I saw the film. I was stunned because I don't think I've ever seen a film so faithful to a work of literature.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #26 on: November 20, 2007, 11:49:06 pm »
I saw the movie before I read the story, and that might have influenced my "like the movie best" vote. But frankly, while I thought the story was wonderful, it just didn't haunt me the way the movie did, nor did I feel compelled to read it over and over, although I have read it several times. And I doubt very seriously that this and other Brokeback-themed forums would exist if the short story had never been made into film.

But, of course, the film would not exist without the story.

Acutally, Marge's comment reminded how I was compelled to read the story over and over. I saw the film twice in December 2005, before I went to visit my dad for Christmas. I read that story every day--really every night--until I was able to get back to Philadelphia and see the film again. It was how I kept it together.  :-\
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2007, 12:02:50 am »
Wow, wow!!

Of course, we like BOTH!!

Annie's story words are repeated in the movie, thank goodness!

But the cute two main gay or bi (or straight) guys in the book are changed by the movie! (They would notlook like these actors!!

Right??

Hugs to all!!

Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #28 on: November 21, 2007, 10:25:47 am »
Wow, wow!!

Of course, we like BOTH!!

Annie's story words are repeated in the movie, thank goodness!

But the cute two main gay or bi (or straight) guys in the book are changed by the movie! (They would notlook like these actors!!

Right??

Hugs to all!!

Do you mean that in that Jake and Heath do not resemble the descriptions of Jack and Ennis in the short story?

Or do you mean that in the movie the two actors do not show the signs of age that we would expect?

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2007, 07:30:11 pm »
Thanks brokeplex!

Right, I say to you first sentence as well as to your second one:
Do you mean that in that Jake and Heath do not resemble the descriptions of Jack and Ennis in the short story?

Or do you mean that in the movie the two actors do not show the signs of age that we would expect?
...
Even if both the book and the movie are important: Jake, I say, is too cute, as Jack! So is Heath as Ennis! That seems so according to Annie's book descriptions??

Let us start with that?? (Tackle the other sentence later, as to aging??)

Hugs!

Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2007, 01:42:31 pm »
Thanks brokeplex!

Right, I say to you first sentence as well as to your second one:
Do you mean that in that Jake and Heath do not resemble the descriptions of Jack and Ennis in the short story?

Or do you mean that in the movie the two actors do not show the signs of age that we would expect?
...
Even if both the book and the movie are important: Jake, I say, is too cute, as Jack! So is Heath as Ennis! That seems so according to Annie's book descriptions??

Let us start with that?? (Tackle the other sentence later, as to aging??)

Hugs!

I agree with you Artiste. The descriptions of Jack and Ennis in AP's short story are a bit different than the appearance of Jake Gyllenhaal (easily the handsomest man in the known universe!) and Heath Ledger (Jake's close runner up in the handsomness contest)

But, how does that affect the telling of the Brokeback story? Does it make the story any less believable? You have brought this up...tell me why I should care about your argument. Many movies have used very handsome men or stunningly beautiful women that do not match in appearance the description in the source story or screenplay . I can give you dozens of examples dating back to the 1920's. In all cases I believe this is done for marketing purposes. Many people will pay for a movie ticket to see an actor with a handsome face. Would you have rather seen Danny Devito and Fred Thompson cavorting up and down Brokeback Mountain?  As an ex-political consultant, I wonder just how politically catastrophic such an appearance would have been for Fred, he really couldn't screw up his campaign any more than it is already. 

Offline brokebackjack

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 817
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2007, 04:09:51 pm »
LMAOOO!!!
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #32 on: November 29, 2007, 12:30:45 pm »
Would you have rather seen Danny Devito and Fred Thompson cavorting up and down Brokeback Mountain?  As an ex-political consultant, I wonder just how politically catastrophic such an appearance would have been for Fred, he really couldn't screw up his campaign any more than it is already. 


 :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2007, 08:02:37 pm »
You need both??

Or we need a continued Annie's story, in order to have also BM II ??


Hugs!

Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #34 on: November 30, 2007, 11:15:47 am »
You need both??

Or we need a continued Annie's story, in order to have also BM II ??


Hugs!

Lets euthanize the idea of a BMII, BM stands alone and should continue to stand alone. It is entirely sufficient for my heart and my imagination.

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #35 on: November 30, 2007, 11:24:27 am »
Thanks brokeplex!

I am very sad by what you say here, may I add!

Since I see that the BM movie was done by straights and I see too much gratuitous violence, anti-gay ways, etc., to murder gay men even to-day too easily, I am FOR another movie, an BM one as a second, but done by gay men, for justice this time!

Surely you can think about that... in many ways? Even if it is another story like BM I? Above all, we need movies which present real lives of gay men, so we are showed as meaningful!

Are we not human, civil, gay men we are!

Hugs!

Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2007, 11:33:47 am »
Thanks brokeplex!

I am very sad by what you say here, may I add!

Since I see that the BM movie was done by straights and I see too much gratuitous violence, anti-gay ways, etc., to murder gay men even to-day too easily, I am FOR another movie, an BM one as a second, but done by gay men, for justice this time!

Surely you can think about that... in many ways? Even if it is another story like BM I? Above all, we need movies which present real lives of gay men, so we are showed as meaningful!

Are we not human, civil, gay men we are!

Hugs!

I know Artiste, you believe that BM was an anti-gay movie. We disagree on this, but you make good arguments and I respect what you say - I just disagree with you.
I think BM was the first movie I have ever seen which showed any understanding of the vast numbers of closeted and semi-closeted men out there, just waiting to wake up and find their voices at long last.

hugs!

Offline Aussie Chris

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 613
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2007, 08:15:40 pm »

Oh come on Artiste.  Was Lassie anti-dog because she dies at the end?  Yes, BBM has gay-bashing and murder in it, but that's not what the movie is about any more than The 10 Commandments was about how to drown a thousand Egyptians in a river.  There are many (MANY) themes in BBM, but I think the most salient ones are the choices that we make out of fear and the regret that comes from living a life of denial - something that just about every gay person has intimate knowledge of.  Without a doubt, with the release of BBM came with a universal and collective sense of appreciation that someone has finally made a film that speaks the truth about what it feels like to be gay, and the lament that there is potential for so much love in the world but we use our fears (or the fears of others) to dictate our actions.

You are completely entitled to your own opinion about the story Artiste, why it was made, and the motives of the writers/producers/actors, but let me ask you this: would you say that I could not possibly understand or be moved by one of your pieces of art because I'm not an artist?  Is "getting it" dependent on either being gay, a man, or an artist?  Or is "getting it" in my own way (even if it was not your intention) equally valid and perhaps even the point of any great work of art?  Maybe it's because the film's makers were straight that it has reached so many, and gays and straights alike can be moved by it without dismissing it as gay-only message?  But the most important consideration I hold on to is this: the film makers may be straight but I seriously question any suggestion that they were not intending to make a beautiful, sad, thoughtful, and genuine film that has resulted in millions of people pausing and reflecting on how they may have denied themselves the opportunity to love.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2007, 12:48:02 pm by Penthesilea »
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline Oregondoggie

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Mountain Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 185
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #38 on: December 01, 2007, 01:22:25 am »
Well said, Aussie Chris.  Totally agree.

« Last Edit: December 01, 2007, 12:49:08 pm by Penthesilea »

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #39 on: December 01, 2007, 03:10:34 am »
Beyond that, Artiste, I simply don't understand why you say the movie is anti-gay because it depicts violence toward gay people. The point it's making is that violence toward gay people is bad.

I've heard people say they don't love BBM because they don't want yet another movie where a gay man dies at the end. They want a happier ending, a more optimistic view of gay life, a movie where gay men aren't "punished" for being themselves. Point taken. But there's also an argument for not turning a blind eye toward history, for trying to depict gay life in the 1960s West the way it really was. Artiste, you have often rightly complained about abuse of gay men -- the movie is trying to expose the tragedy of that, not celebrate it.

To say it's anti-gay is like movies about racism are anti-black, or movies depicting Jesus' crucifixion are anti-Christ.


« Last Edit: December 01, 2007, 12:50:21 pm by Penthesilea »

Offline Aussie Chris

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 613
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2007, 03:36:15 am »
To say it's anti-gay is like movies about racism are anti-black, or movies depicting Jesus' crucifixion are anti-Christ.

Wouldn't it be reasonable to say that crucifixion movies are anti-Christ, after all it was Christ that was killed.  So while BBM isn't anti-gay, you could argue that it's anti-Jack!  Um, hi Katherine!  ;)
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2007, 03:21:48 pm »
Anti-Jack or anti-gay, same thing!!??

Certainly anti-Jack!! Glad you awake persons to that!

Hugs!


Offline Aussie Chris

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 613
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2007, 07:11:26 pm »
Anti-Jack or anti-gay, same thing!!??

No Artiste, it is not.
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2007, 07:41:56 pm »
Wouldn't it be reasonable to say that crucifixion movies are anti-Christ, after all it was Christ that was killed.  So while BBM isn't anti-gay, you could argue that it's anti-Jack!  Um, hi Katherine!  ;)

Hi Chris! Nice to see you! I'm not sure I understand your comment, though. If the filmmakers clearly take the position that killing the person or persons was wrong, then the movies are not anti-whatever. In BBM, the people who killed Earl were anti-Earl, and if Jack was murdered, then whoever did it was anti-Jack. But the movie isn't anti-Earl and -Jack.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your point.  ???


Offline Aussie Chris

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 613
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2007, 08:57:56 pm »
Hi Chris! Nice to see you! I'm not sure I understand your comment, though. If the filmmakers clearly take the position that killing the person or persons was wrong, then the movies are not anti-whatever. In BBM, the people who killed Earl were anti-Earl, and if Jack was murdered, then whoever did it was anti-Jack. But the movie isn't anti-Earl and -Jack.

No I don't think you missed my point, just that there is a very big difference between the killing of a character (Jack, Jesus, etc) and the prejudice of a social group (gays, Christians, etc).  I was pointing out that crucifixion films may be anti-Christ, but not anti-Christian.  Wrt the writers of BBM, one way or another they intended to kill Jack to serve the narrative.  Additionally, Jack regularly appeared as being picked on (in the bar after the rodeo, the guys calling Jack a piss-ant, Lorene's father, Jack's father, etc, etc), and all of this was intended to present Jack as a character to sympathise with.  And with this in mind I put to you that the film was anti-Jack, but where talking about a character here.  So while you could argue that the film is negative towards Jack as a character I don't think people named Jack should feel concerned.  In my mind though, anti-gay is too generic a term to be used in this way and to say BBM is anti-gay is to suggest a negativity was intended towards gay people, which I strongly dispute.
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2007, 09:11:50 pm »
No I don't think you missed my point, just that there is a very big difference between the killing of a character (Jack, Jesus, etc) and the prejudice of a social group (gays, Christians, etc).  I was pointing out that crucifixion films may be anti-Christ, but not anti-Christian.  Wrt the writers of BBM, one way or another they intended to kill Jack to serve the narrative.  Additionally, Jack regularly appeared as being picked on (in the bar after the rodeo, the guys calling Jack a piss-ant, Lorene's father, Jack's father, etc, etc), and all of this was intended to present Jack as a character to sympathise with.  And with this in mind I put to you that the film was anti-Jack, but where talking about a character here.  So while you could argue that the film is negative towards Jack as a character I don't think people named Jack should feel concerned.  In my mind though, anti-gay is too generic a term to be used in this way and to say BBM is anti-gay is to suggest a negativity was intended towards gay people, which I strongly dispute.

I think that you are on target here. I have never believed that the film or short story is anti-gay. The movie is intensely painful, I think we all agree on that. For some it is so painful that for some of the truth in the movie may be temporarily lost or temporarily can't be faced because of the rawness of the emotions which are dredged up. BM the  movie hits my life so close to home that after watching it I was numb for some time afterwards.

Like Artiste, the love of my life died. He and I had a closeted affair for over two decades. He was not murdered, but was killed in a traffic accident. The movie dredged up my rage and sense of being short-changed in life, and it was a healing miracle that BM affected me that way. I was then began to deal with and resolve anger that I didn't even know I was burdened with.

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2007, 10:00:29 pm »
No I don't think you missed my point, just that there is a very big difference between the killing of a character (Jack, Jesus, etc) and the prejudice of a social group (gays, Christians, etc).  I was pointing out that crucifixion films may be anti-Christ, but not anti-Christian.  Wrt the writers of BBM, one way or another they intended to kill Jack to serve the narrative.  Additionally, Jack regularly appeared as being picked on (in the bar after the rodeo, the guys calling Jack a piss-ant, Lorene's father, Jack's father, etc, etc), and all of this was intended to present Jack as a character to sympathise with.  And with this in mind I put to you that the film was anti-Jack, but where talking about a character here.  So while you could argue that the film is negative towards Jack as a character I don't think people named Jack should feel concerned.  In my mind though, anti-gay is too generic a term to be used in this way and to say BBM is anti-gay is to suggest a negativity was intended towards gay people, which I strongly dispute.

OK, I guess partly what divides us is a difference in interpretation of what it means to say a film is "anti" something. I see the distinction you make between Christ and Christians, Jacks and gays, individuals and groups. But to me, saying a film is "anti-Jack," or "anti-Christ," or that it's negative to those characters, it means the filmmakers' POV opposes Jack and Christ. When clearly, those films sympathize with them. What they oppose are the forces and/or people that led to their deaths. So BBM is neither anti-Jack nor anti-gay, it's anti homophobia.

Am I making sense? In other words, if a bad thing kills some of the lead characters, that doesn't mean the film is anti those characters, it's anti the thing that kills them.

For example, Titanic not anti-Jack (Leonardo DiCaprio's character), just because he dies at the end of the film -- on the contrary, it's pro-Jack, because it paints him as a sympathetic character whose death is sad. Hotel Rwanda, is not anti the Tutsis and their supporters getting slaughtered, it's sympathetic to the Tutsis' tragedy. Roots it's not anti-slaves. Michael Moore's movies are not anti the people he depicts as victims of whatever system he's taking on (the health care system, in his latest film), it's anti the system itself, even if that -- in the film -- is the (at least temporary) victor.

Those aren't even the best examples, because I'm blanking out on better ones. But am I making sense anyway?


Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2007, 01:54:42 pm »
You have made a great deal of sense and I agree with you. I think that the opinion concerning whether the film is anti-gay has its source in the fact that the film causes pain in some viewers who have experienced traumas similar to Ennis and Jack. It also caused terrific pain in me, but it was a pain that I needed to feel, and because of it I resolved some issues in my life and moved on. Older and a little bit wiser. Perhaps there are those who have not reconciled the pain that BM causes in them, and they need time and patience to learn to deal with this. I am always ready to listen to anyone who still needs help in dealing with the crummy hand that society has dealt to many gay men like Ennis and Jack.

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2007, 02:42:24 pm »
Thanks Aussie Chris, and thanks to all too!!

Since my long and many replies disappered many times to-day, I am now brief with this one. I will firstly try to place some words and thought about what you say first: Jack regularly appeared as being picked on (in the bar after the rodeo, the guys calling Jack a piss-ant, Lorene's father, Jack's father, etc, etc), and all of this was intended to present Jack as a character to sympathise with.  And with this in mind I put to you that the film was anti-Jack, but where talking about a character here.
...
Just that, Jack was too much picked on!! That is what makes the movie somewhat anti-gay! May I say!

Hugs!

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2007, 02:44:07 pm »
I forgot! As far as saying that I prefer the movie or the book, that is one reason maybe that the book might be better?

Hugs!

Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #50 on: December 02, 2007, 03:04:14 pm »
I forgot! As far as saying that I prefer the movie or the book, that is one reason maybe that the book might be better?

Hugs!

The short story definitely has its positive points and can be read at many different levels. anti-gay really is not one of them.

Artiste, in the movie do you remember the scenes in Jack Twists' home in Childress Texas? I am going to ask you a question because I know that you are a very accomplished artist who sells your paintings for top dollar.  I looked at the prices that your paintings are selling for on line. WOW!
 My question: Do you think that the decor in the Twist's home was tacky to the point of being a parody of nouveau riche Texans? I do, so maybe I should view Brokeback the movie as anti-Texan? hhhhhmmmmmmm.....????

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #51 on: December 02, 2007, 08:09:52 pm »
Thanks brokeplex!

Wow, you sure pose a question there! You ask me a puzzle, indeed!

I always figure that that scene in Jack's parents' home, inside is like a painting, utmostly known like the ones with the man and woman with the fork, which title was it again? Mr.and Mrs. Twist are such figures of that painting? As an producer, I could not have choosen better physical and stern looking and acting actors as these two!! Wow, wow!!


And the outside of it, like the one from the Pennsylvania artist where the lady is on the side on the hill and the house is seen from afar; forgotten that titled and name of the artist, even if I lived there nearby.

Of course, other paintings will come to mind too. You too?

Even if my paintings seem to be expensive to you, they are not so, since they are worth much, much more $ wise, plus otherwise as for humanity!! That is another subject for later on... OK?

I am glad that you bring that up about my paintings and of others, to think about the Twist's house and home!!
Remember the word stern that I used!! It is always BM movie! Is it the book too??

You might think that the decor is tacky, to use your word, for the Twist' home, but then  many were and much still is to-day, as I entered numerous house travelling all over USA and Canada... plus I had delivered newspapers which allowed me to enter and even babysit at some places. Boy, did I see many places which were REALLY the BM movie!!

Hugs!



Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #52 on: December 02, 2007, 08:31:17 pm »
No Artiste, not the Twist home in Lightning Flat, Wy. The Jack Twist home in Childress, TX. And, you know that I am joking about BM being anti-Texan...right? But I am still interested in your impression of the Twist home in Childress, TX

Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,287
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #53 on: December 02, 2007, 09:08:09 pm »
I grew up in Kansas, not Texas, in the '60s, and the Jack Twist house is a dead ringer for my childhood home. It is very faithful to the post-war newly affluent suburban Midwest lifestyle of that time.

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #54 on: December 02, 2007, 09:34:30 pm »
I grew up in Kansas, not Texas, in the '60s, and the Jack Twist house is a dead ringer for my childhood home. It is very faithful to the post-war newly affluent suburban Midwest lifestyle of that time.



Really, in Kansas? Even with the fake cactus lamps, and the weird desert motifs in the wallpaper? To me its a little over the top, not that a loving home can't be found with all that Southwestern decor and strangely mismatched colors?. I just don't remember seeing a house  in Texas or anywhere with that type of furnsihings, it looks like it was expensive, I just thought it was kinda weird. When I was younger during the same time period as you, I remember decor similar to what we see in Alma's house after she divorced Ennis and married the grocer. Kind of heavy on the polished wood and stone, and brick....brick......brick......everywhere. Warm and "homey".

Since I'm in my 'decor' mode, I'll ask one more question. What did you think of the decor in Alma's apt with Ennis in Riverton? I thought that was right on target for a poor young married couple with a young child. The Singer sewing machine over in the corner, the red Betty Crocker cookbook on the drainboard, the plastic glued on vanity cabinets in bathroom. Wow, I think Ang Lee sure got that one right!
« Last Edit: December 03, 2007, 10:57:32 pm by brokeplex »

Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,287
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #55 on: December 02, 2007, 10:09:07 pm »
What did you think of the decor in Alma's apt with Ennis in Riverton? I thought that was right on target for a poor young married couple with a young child. The Singer sewing machine over in the corner, the red Betty Crocker cookbook on the drainboard, the plastic glued on vanity cabinets in bathroom. Wow, I think Ang Lee sure got that one right!

I agree! From what I've read, he and his wife were in a similar situation  when he was young and studying at the University of Chicago and later in New York. Minus the rural aspect, of course! Alma's prominently displayed sewing machine, along with her knitting, made me think of her as a kind of Penelope character, waiting for her man to come home, or more to the point, to his senses. And in the opposite corner was a chilling tryptich--a vacumn cleaner (a reminder of Jack, since he is associated with the wind), a water heater (ditto, Jack was associated with water), and, most chilling of all, an iron on an ironing board!!  :'(
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #56 on: December 02, 2007, 10:24:17 pm »
I agree! From what I've read, he and his wife were in a similar situation  when he was young and studying at the University of Chicago and later in New York. Minus the rural aspect, of course! Alma's prominently displayed sewing machine, along with her knitting, made me think of her as a kind of Penelope character, waiting for her man to come home, or more to the point, to his senses. And in the opposite corner was a chilling tryptich--a vacumn cleaner (a reminder of Jack, since he is associated with the wind), a water heater (ditto, Jack was associated with water), and, most chilling of all, an iron on an ironing board!!  :'(


Thanks! Wow that is very good. Front Ranger! ....we see more and more into this movie......Ennis as Ulysses, Jack as hmmmmmmm, I don't know? one of the sirens that lured nearly lured the crew to their deaths........ I have become obsessed with the deeper meanings of the movie and the short story.

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #57 on: December 03, 2007, 12:07:20 am »
Thanks Front-Ranger, and thanks brokeplex!!

You two bring up much, to my surprise about decor. I am really happy about your questions and details you two provide. I always wanted to do such decor, especially paintings for films. I still dream of doing it... but since one I went out with was a gay man like I am, and that Walt Disney studios became anti-gay after Walt died, I became disintered! (Did you know that Walt got his idea here in Canada?)

I have sold some decor itemsfor movies, some I know about, because most I do not name the films since these sales have been indirect.  I do not know if any were in the BM movie. One big movie I know about, but I have not seen yet.

During my Montreal exhibition of my paintings I created, I had a spectator who does designs of decor for movies (USA...). I have her address and plan to contact her, and ask her if she had seen the BM movie or did one or more of those decors.

In my Los Angeles studio days, I did meet often decor persons for movies, but I did not ask, unfortunately. I regret that I do not even remember their names to-day! They showed black and white silent movies at their residence, often, which I learned to like very much. One such actor is or was a relative of mine... it seems. Others I knew in LA were actors, art critic about movies, etc., but I do not know if any of my relatives are in the movie industry these days... even if many still live in California!

Do I like the movie or the book better?? Boy, now I have to consider decors!! Wow, such is a welcomed challenge you give me brokeplex and Front-Ranger!! The adventure continues... is the book detailed for decors??

Hugs!! Hugs!!

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #58 on: December 03, 2007, 01:42:37 am »
I think all of the movie's decors are really fabulous depictions of time and socio-economic level and character, along with little movie/story-oriented metaphors and clues. It's amazing that a movie directed by a non-American can be so consistently spot-on with Americana details.

One question about Jack and Lureen's house, Brokeplex. Do you think it's tacky in an inherent sense, or is it tacky to our contemporary eyes because it's so '70s?


Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #59 on: December 03, 2007, 10:36:03 am »
We can and must congratulate the ones who created such decors!!

At least, I do... so far. I know that some were OK for me. Since you ask brokeplex, you will get my answer  as I will later on review the film.

Were they on Bettermost these decor persons??

Hugs!!

Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #60 on: December 03, 2007, 09:53:41 pm »

One question about Jack and Lureen's house, Brokeplex. Do you think it's tacky in an inherent sense, or is it tacky to our contemporary eyes because it's so '70s?



Very good question ineedcrayons. (I like your name its from "Mama, I need crayons" right?)

 I am 51 and remember the 70's very well! My comment about the Jack Twist home decor being tacky is because if I had seen a home decorated that way during the 70's  I would have felt the same way. I don't remember homes decorated quite like that while growing up in small town Texas. No offense to anyone who likes the decor, but it reminded me a lot of the decor in the Hyatt Regency in Houston during that time.

 Growing up I knew a number of family's like the Newsomes who would have been politely called "recently comfortable". And remember some funny excesses. Sometimes the decor of the 70's all around was a bit excessive, probably too much chrome, flashy wall paper, velour everything. In regard to the Jack Twist home, it was the combinations of what I saw as fake Southwestern motifs, mismatched velour pillows, fake cactus lamps that caused me to wonder if Ang Lee was making a comment on the artificiality of the Twist marriage - reflected in the decor. I don't think that anything in this movie is by accident, it clearly was all very well thought out! That coupled with the unaturalness of Lureen's appearance by the 1970's, way too much peroxide, the loud nail polish, and that blouse is way too tight for her age in 1977 or 1983! She was so beautiful early on, then kinda brittle towards the end. I think the combinations of all of this is making a statement. 

 (Oh, I hope everyone knows that I was joking about the decor suggesting that the movie is anti-Texan, I was just doing a mild take off on Artiste's opinion that the movie is anti-gay - my humor runs towards the dry side sometimes)


Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #61 on: December 04, 2007, 12:40:24 am »
Great post brokeplex!

I definitely agree that the artificiality in both the interior design and the clothing of Lureen and Jack might be a sign of their false marriage.

As the years go on, Jack seems to "dress-up" as a cowboy, but he no longer engages in activities that would make him a cowboy and his outfits get more flamboyant in a certain way (flashy watch, really colorful shirts, etc.).  And a degree of artificiality seems to creep into his wardrobe. Note the much bigger black hat at the end. He no longer seems to wear real working-cowboy gear. For Jack, being a cowboy is already a fantasy that's escaped him by the time of the reunion in 1967.  He proposes a "cow and calf operation" as if this is some ideal form of employment and not part of his reality and from the story we know that by '67 he's already quit the rodeo.  Whereas for Ennis, we know he already works for a "cow and calf" operation both in what he says to Alma in the grocery store, in the shot where we see him feeding cattle, in what he tells Cassie, etc. For Ennis working with cows (I'm being very literal here in my definition of cow-boy) is a form of daily subsistence or maybe even drudgery... not the same kind of fantasy-ideal that it seems to be for Jack.  By the time we see the interior of Jack's house in Texas he's a salesman who works in an office and drives combines around a parking lot. 

I wonder if the artificial signs of nature inside the Twist house (the fake cactus plant lamps) and the faux signs of being "western" in their decor might correspond a bit to the framed pictures of mountains in Ennis and Alma's homes (in the isolated ranch house and in the apartment over the laundromat).
The containment of the symbol of the mountain for Ennis may be slightly different in meaning from what you've pointed out here about Jack's daily-Texas environment.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #62 on: December 04, 2007, 12:55:27 am »
Great post brokeplex!

I definitely agree that the artificiality in both the interior design and the clothing of Lureen and Jack might be a sign of their false marriage.

I wonder if the artificial signs of nature inside the Twist house (the fake cactus plant lamps) and the faux signs of being "western" in their decor might correspond a bit to the framed pictures of mountains in Ennis and Alma's homes (in the isolated ranch house and in the apartment over the laundromat).
The containment of the symbol of the mountain for Ennis may be slightly different in meaning from what you've pointed out here about Jack's daily-Texas environment.



good point your are making about the mountain pictures in Alma's house over the laundry in Riverton being a partial analog to the Twist house decor.

good point about noticing the fact that Jack's hat in 1983 is too large, a fake dimestore cowboy sized hat! His Rolex watch: I noticed that as a particularly good bit of verisimilitude on the part of Ang Lee. During that period 1970's -1980's, Rolex's were known as Texas Timex's. The massive clunky variety was very popular with upscale Texans during that period. In the mid 1980's after the that particular oil boom crashed, you could pick up a good Rolex in a Texas pawn shop for peanuts.

did you notice that he wore the same Rodeo belt buckle throughout the entire movie? what a symbolic connection to his frustrated love for his father.

did you notice in Jack's room in the scene where Ennis visits the Twist home that Jack as a little boy had collected statues of cowboys on horses? Jack always idealized the cowboy image, even as a little boy. I couldn't help but cry when I saw Ennis pick up that little statue. Was Jack always looking for respect from his father, his whole life? Did he try to realize that frustrated love in his attraction and love for a real cowboy Ennis?   

Offline Kelda

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 14,703
  • Zorbing....
    • Keldas Facebook Page!
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #63 on: December 04, 2007, 05:13:37 am »
back on topic!

I persanally I am a fan of the movie - I read the short story after watching brokeback on film. I did not connect with the story in anywhwere near the same way. I think partly this is because I'm a more visial person. I also felth that the film allowed formuch more tender scenes between jack and Ennis which the book didn't display. Still wish they ahd put lil darlin in the screen version though.
http://www.idbrass.com

Please use the following links when shopping online -It will help us raise money without costing you a penny.

http://www.easyfundraising.org.uk/idb

http://idb.easysearch.org.uk/

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #64 on: December 04, 2007, 03:18:12 pm »
Does Annie's story tend to be more pro-gay and human, while the movie is much anti-gay in some ways??

This need to be detailled!! So, it is hard to say if the book or the movie, is liked more than the other??

Hugs!

Offline louisev

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 16,107
  • "My guns and amo!! Over my cold dead hands!!"
    • Fiction by Louise Van Hine
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #65 on: December 04, 2007, 03:27:49 pm »
I really don't understand this "pro gay" or "anti gay" idea concerning the story, and I think that trying to evaluate how "pro gay" the story or film is, is really not involved in the topic.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #66 on: December 04, 2007, 03:29:47 pm »
I really don't understand this "pro gay" or "anti gay" idea concerning the story, and I think that trying to evaluate how "pro gay" the story or film is, is really not involved in the topic.

I was just going to say this. What does "anti-gay" mean? Does it mean the film shows homophobia, or opposition to gays? Then I don't agree, nor do I understand what the evidence for this would be.


Offline Aussie Chris

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 613
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #67 on: December 04, 2007, 05:17:20 pm »
Does Annie's story tend to be more pro-gay and human, while the movie is much anti-gay in some ways??

No offense mate but your repetitive comments about anti-gay are like an argument with a 5 year old along the lines of: "I know you are but what am I"?

Neither Annie's story nor the film are considered anti-gay by anyone I know in any way that might be considered sensible or thoughtful.

Please get over this.  This (off) topic has become tedious.
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #68 on: December 04, 2007, 05:42:53 pm »
Please get over this.  This (off) topic has become tedious.

Good plan. The term means nothing nothing to me in this context and I'm tired of trying to decipher it. Let's move on.

OK, here's one, just to get the discussion rolling. Sometimes it seems to me that, if I had to generalize, among those who express a preference one way or another, I'd say that women tend to like the movie better and men tend to like the story better. With lots and lots of exceptions, of course.

Or maybe there are so many exceptions as to make the generalization utterly meaningless? What do you all think?

I'll issue a big mea culpa in advance if this just seems stupid.





Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #69 on: December 04, 2007, 07:52:14 pm »
Thanks brokeplex, and all !!

You say brokeplex: did you notice that he wore the same Rodeo belt buckle throughout the entire movie? what a symbolic connection to his frustrated love for his father
...

Was that so: same belt buckle? That was in the movie, you say; but was that so too in Annie's story?? Maybe that is one thing that makes the movie more women orientated, and the story an more men one??


Hugs!

Offline Oregondoggie

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Mountain Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 185
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #70 on: December 05, 2007, 12:34:21 am »
Many of us know the movie frame by frame by now.  Maybe don't watch it like we used to.  Some of us watch segments depending on our mood.  Maybe just for the music.  Stoke the day.

But the little short story retains its power.  Sometimes the rainbow appears over one part.  Another time the wind tears down the page.

Can't really guess how liking the movie or the short story better would break down by gender, except that the screen play opens up the lives of the female characters.  We can't ignore them and just run off to the Motel Siesta!   

Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,287
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #71 on: December 05, 2007, 12:41:08 am »
Sure you can. Just say, "Jack and I get to talkin, drinking, might not make it back until tomorrow!."

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline brokebackjack

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 817
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #72 on: December 05, 2007, 04:47:00 am »
Anti-Jack or anti-gay, same thing!!??

Certainly anti-Jack!! Glad you awake persons to that!

Hugs!



Terribly sorry Artiste but it is NOT the same thing.

Nor was BBM anti Jack.

I simply do not get any of this, any of it at all.
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #73 on: December 05, 2007, 11:18:55 am »
Can't really guess how liking the movie or the short story better would break down by gender, except that the screen play opens up the lives of the female characters.

No, I don't mean women like the movie better because they're more sympathetic to or interested in the female characters. I haven't seen that tendency at all.

I think what I might be getting at is, the movie is slightly more romantic in the traditional sense -- with emphasis on the "slightly" (it definitely never gets sentimental or maudlin or any of those icky things). But Annie Proulx is even more unsentimental, and while up to a point I admire that about the story in a literary sense, in some cases she goes so far as to keep me a bit distanced from the characters emotionally. And -- so shoot me if this sounds sexist -- women sometimes tend to be more drawn than men are toward romantic fare.

It's just slightly, slightly more (and oh gosh, I know I'm going to get in huge trouble for using this term) chick flicky.

Quote
We can't ignore them and just run off to the Motel Siesta!

Well, I do. I'm one of those people whose sympathies for Alma in that scene are purely intellectual. They don't impinge on my happiness for J & E.

I simply do not get any of this, any of it at all.

Me neither, Jack, but there's a whole thread devoted to this topic (13 pages long, at present) on this forum, where I assume Artiste outlines his views. So what's say we move on from the anti-gay/Jack discussion here.




Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #74 on: December 05, 2007, 07:49:23 pm »
ineedcrayons, I am very sad because of your demand.

Guess we have no more freedom to be gay men here?

Of all, you surprise me...

Hugs!

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #75 on: December 05, 2007, 08:06:18 pm »
Guess we have no more freedom to be gay men here?

Don't be sad, Artiste. That's not what I said.

What I said was, there is already a thread devoted to the anti-gay question. Anyone interested can discuss that question there.  This thread is about preferences for the story vs. the movie. Let's talk about that issue here, so that people who are interested in that topic can do so.

Gay men, obviously, have freedom to be gay men wherever they like.




Offline LauraGigs

  • Moderator
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,447
    • My Design Portfolio
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #76 on: December 05, 2007, 10:42:41 pm »
Quote from: ineedcrayons
The movie is what really made an emotional impact on me . . . it is not as zealously unsentimental as the story. [Annie Proulx's] spareness was so extreme as to ultimately be, for me, off-putting.

Some of the elements used to undercut otherwise touching moments -- "he missed Ennis bad enough sometimes to make him whip babies," the flashback of Jack's dad peeing on him -- were just a bit too ascetic.

This is exactly how I feel about the book vs. the film.  Proulx wraps a raw, tender bleeding heart of a plot in such a dry prose style, the raw emotion is (almost) obscured .  (Evidently not a problem for other readers, but it tripped up my experience a bit.  Listening to RodneyWY's live reading was so illuminating for me.) 

Also, the film really illustrated the internal dialogue — the thought/emotional processes of the characters like the story never did.  IMO, an entire new dimension was presented there.

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #77 on: December 05, 2007, 11:06:58 pm »
(Evidently not a problem for other readers, but it tripped up my experience a bit.  Listening to RodneyWY's live reading was so illuminating for me.) 

Also, the film really illustrated the internal dialogue — the thought/emotional processes of the characters like the story never did.  IMO, an entire new dimension was presented there.

And in return, I agree with these statements! One, that Rodney's reading helped me find more emotion in the story. It's strange how to some people all the emotion is there right away, and for others it isn't, or at least it isn't until they see it dramatized in the movie. But Rodney really brought it out well -- in a way that was moving, and wholly independent of the movie.

And two, that I was better able to access the internal lives of the characters in the movie. Strange, because with books and movies it's usually the other way around. After all, books can just come right out and say what characters are thinking, and movies have to show them thinking it.

But Proulx rarely does say what her characters are thinking. So to me, anyway, they came off as rather flat. And the actors in the movie -- Heath Ledger in particular, but the others, too -- do such a great job of revealing their thoughts and feelings without using dialogue that I suddenly understood the characters much better after seeing the film than I had when reading the story.


Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #78 on: December 06, 2007, 10:06:44 am »
This is exactly how I feel about the book vs. the film.  Proulx wraps a raw, tender bleeding heart of a plot in such a dry prose style, the raw emotion is (almost) obscured .  (Evidently not a problem for other readers, but it tripped up my experience a bit.  Listening to RodneyWY's live reading was so illuminating for me.) 

Also, the film really illustrated the internal dialogue — the thought/emotional processes of the characters like the story never did.  IMO, an entire new dimension was presented there.

do you think the dry, sparse prose of AP makes the poignancy of the tale all the more sharper?

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #79 on: December 06, 2007, 10:21:10 am »
do you think the dry, sparse prose of AP makes the poignancy of the tale all the more sharper?

It does for me with respect to when Ennis finds the shirts.

Possibly this is because the story doesn't give us the post-divorce scene, and Jack's reaction. The story only refers to the post-divorce episode retrospectively, as the only time in 20 years that Ennis telephoned Jack until the postcard came back marked "deceased." I don't get from the story the sense that I do from the film of Jack's longing, over 20 years, to be with Ennis, so when I read the story and get to the part where Ennis finds the shirts--and there is the tangible evidence of Jack's abiding love--real love--over all those years, yes, I guess it does kick me harder than it does when I watch Heath find the shirts.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline brokebackjack

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 817
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #80 on: December 08, 2007, 06:36:58 am »
I agree---the film fleshed out the characters drawn by Annie in her short story.
Heath WAS  Ennis DelMar, while Jake really DID  bring Jack Twist to vividly brilliant  life.

Yet the laconic characterisations of both men in the SS hit me like a ton of bricks. Could this be linked to a possible difference in the way men and women view things? a man/woman sort of thing?  A possible gay/straight divergence as well? I honestly do believe men and women, naturally or through  acculturation, generally have a way of looking at such things from a different--- at times a widely divergent--viewpoint. I've noticed  this in regard to gay/straight men as well.

 My straight male friends do not care for extreme detail when it comes to characterisations. My gay male friends tend to want a much more detailed literary description then their hetero co-sexualists <sp???lol>. At the same time, very many of my female friends generally want ALL those details spelled out.

I'm bi, and along with the rest of my bi friends I tend to want something in the middle---but leaning very much on the spare side. The imagination fills the rest in. AP's spare and laconic pictures of Jack and Ennis are damned near perfect so far as I'm concerned; to repeat, they hit me like a ton of bricks.

What I DO know is that as a man, there are both real life and literary occasions when  fewer words, a starker portrait, tell me more then  a detailed description. I have Margaret Mitchell's long and extremely detailed characterisation of Scarlett O'Hara from the first page of Gone With the Wind in mind as I write this. She left NOTHING to the reader's imagination, told us everything, right down to the blush of Scarlett's cheeks.  TOO detailed, for me at least. ...yet most of the women I know just loved that word picture.

Any comments on this?



Not for nothing, I hope no one has convinced themselves that we are being 'anti-gay' on this thread. That whole business is just too much, IMO very off-base. To think such a thing is not fair. We do not deserve to be called anti-gay.
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,287
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #81 on: December 08, 2007, 11:18:54 am »
Faulkner, who was straight, was the very definition of verbosity. Joyce, ditto. While Hemingway, whose orientation was undoubtedly mixed, was very terse. Proulx (she's been married three times to men!) is terse, Tennessee Williams (gay) verbose. The only conclusions I can gather from all this is that people are all different and defy generalization! Me, I love Proulx but also Foer, Joyce, and Faulkner. Margaret Mitchell doesn't ring my bells, but perhaps would've if she'd written more books. I love short stories, but I have a great deal of difficulty reading poetry.

I'm just now reading about William Styron. Did you ever read Sophie's Choice? Or see the movie? That was very powerful.

I guess I would say that the number of words is less important than what they add up to. Some writers are better with less or more. Some readers are better with less or more.
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #82 on: December 08, 2007, 11:44:39 am »
Jack, I don't know that I agree with the gay/straight difference, but I do think that men and women react differently to the story BBM, and in general men tend to be more powerfully affected by it. Obviously, there are exceptions, since Front-Ranger still has the magazine on her bedside table 10 years later. And nakymaton, who started a whole thread about the short story, was a woman also blown away by it. I also know men who liked the movie better, at least at first.

But there's something to this male/female divide in literary taste, and I'm not just talking about Tom Clancy vs. Danielle Steele. I had just been thinking about this recently, because I read something short by David Foster Wallace, and although I really love his prose style in small doses, I don't think I could read a whole book by him, let alone the 1088-page "Infinite Jest." (Yet I read the 1037-page "Gone With the Wind" a dozen times in grade school and junior high.) Thomas Pynchon is another writer who seems to appeal much more to men. As is Don DeLillo. And Cormac McCarthy.

I'm not saying no woman would ever love these books -- only that fewer do.

I can't think offhand of good, literary books (not romance novels or bodice-rippers) that appeal primarily to women, but I'm sure there are many. Probably the majority are a) written by women and b) have female protagonists.

I don't know how much any of this has to do with wordy description. As I said, I read GWTW a dozen times between fifth grade and maybe 8th grade, and at that time that kind of physical description was fine. (GWTW was my favorite book at the time -- I no longer love it; though I think it's powerful and well-done in many ways, it is just too offensively racist.)

Wordy description is less in style now. Lots of times whole books go by without the reader ever knowing what the main characters look like. I tend to like spare prose myself, and to get impatient with wordiness. I saw "Sophie's Choice" the movie before trying to read the book, and I found myself just wanting to skip ahead to the good parts. I never finished reading it.

Uh-oh, I'm getting pretty wordy myself now! Hope you men can make it through this post!  :laugh:




Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,287
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #83 on: December 08, 2007, 12:26:29 pm »
Uh-oh, I'm getting pretty wordy myself now! Hope you men can make it through this post!  :laugh:

Friend, that's the most you've spoke in two weeks!!

Front-Ranger still has the magazine on her bedside table 10 years later.
Actually I carry copies of it around in my briefcase now, and the magazine pages are hidden away where housecleaners cannot find and toss them!

Thomas Pynchon is another writer who seems to appeal much more to men. As is Don DeLillo. And Cormac McCarthy.

Pynchon and McCarthy are two of my favourite authors! Do you like them too? The Crying of Lot 49 is awesome, and it has a female protagonist. I have read nearly all of McCarthy's books, except for No Country for Old Men, which I'm just starting. I love the way he does dialogue.

I can't think offhand of good, literary books (not romance novels or bodice-rippers) that appeal primarily to women, but I'm sure there are many. Probably the majority are a) written by women and b) have female protagonists.

Salmon Rushdie said that his primary audience is women. In fact, women read more serious fiction than men do. Altho neither read much. I don't really understand who's buying all these books these days!! I read the book Shame by Rushdie and it was very very good. Very good insights about Pakistan too.

There's also J. K. Rowling, of course. She seems to appeal to women and men equally. And kids. And seniors. And Brits as well as other English-speakers.

The first novel ever written was authored by a woman. It was The Tale of Genji by Lady Murasaki. Written in the 800s, about a prince in the Japanese court. He was certainly a Jack of his time. The book is very wordy, but it has the Japanese conciseness of prose. Hey, we're veering off topic here, but I love it!
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #84 on: December 08, 2007, 01:09:39 pm »
Faulkner, who was straight, was the very definition of verbosity. Joyce, ditto. While Hemingway, whose orientation was undoubtedly mixed, was very terse. Proulx (she's been married three times to men!) is terse, Tennessee Williams (gay) verbose. The only conclusions I can gather from all this is that people are all different and defy generalization!


Hey Sister-Mod,

I 100% agree with this.  I think generalization along gender lines (or lines of sexuality... or based on any large social group characterization, actually) is pretty futile since there are often immediately multiple examples of exceptions to any theorized rule.  I also think the urge to generalize can be a slippery slope.

I think remembering that the story of BBM was written by a straight woman is important here to this specific discussion of preferences regarding the story.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #85 on: December 08, 2007, 07:21:02 pm »
Pynchon and McCarthy are two of my favourite authors! Do you like them too? The Crying of Lot 49 is awesome, and it has a female protagonist. I have read nearly all of McCarthy's books, except for No Country for Old Men, which I'm just starting. I love the way he does dialogue.

Salmon Rushdie said that his primary audience is women.

FRiend, I should spend more time book-clubbing with you! No, I haven't read Pynchon, McCarthy or Rushdie. But your enthusiasm is inspirational. Sometimes I need to force myself to go outside my fictional comfort zone.

Quote
In fact, women read more serious fiction than men do.

Yes, I have read this many places, from reliable sources. I agree, Amanda, that this whole enterprise can be a slippery slope. But this seems to be one genderalization that is true.



Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,287
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #86 on: December 08, 2007, 08:27:55 pm »
He, he, you know that term "book lust"? Well, that describes me when I get my hands on a good book!!
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #87 on: December 08, 2007, 08:39:42 pm »

 The only conclusions I can gather from all this is that people are all different and defy generalization! 

I guess I would say that the number of words is less important than what they add up to. Some writers are better with less or more. Some readers are better with less or more.

Yes, I like what you said! I agree that people "defy generalization". I really resist being lumped into any group and being pre-judged as to my content and my heart.

Let's Defy Generalization!

Offline Kd5000

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 910
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #88 on: December 08, 2007, 09:04:42 pm »
I liked the movie better. It fleshed out the characters moreso.   It does make for an even stronger short story. Jack Twist is even more tragic in the movie.  His character in the short story wasn't as sympathetic for some reason. Maybe something about him saying "I didn't want no kid," something to that effect.   

I mean, if BBM had never been made into a movie, I don't know how much an impression the short story would had on me.  Of course, many movies fall short of the novel/short story they are based on. This one didn't.

By the way, I avoided reading the short story until I had seen the film.  I had heard it was a tradegy and I thought, I don't wanta know what happens. And if's too sad, then I won't see the movie.

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #89 on: December 08, 2007, 10:23:52 pm »
He, he, you know that term "book lust"? Well, that describes me when I get my hands on a good book!!


:)  Me too!  Have you heard about the book called Book Lust by Nancy Pearl? It's essentially about how to go about finding books to read to suit a particular mood and about recommendations, etc.  My Mom has it and thinks it's fun.  My Mom actually has a fairly large collection of books about books... or books about reading, which are often really interesting books!  ;D 8)


Sorry to have strayed off-topic...

To get back on track... While I still contend that personally I prefer the movie, it's fascinating to think about how knowledge and appreciation of the story informs an understanding of the film.  When I watch the film sometimes I find myself filling in certain details... or reacting to characters based on things I know about them only from the story.  For example, my reaction to Old Man Twist at the end of the movie is hugely informed by what I know about that character from the story.  Etc.

And vice versa now too... my impressions of the movie always are with me when I read the story and details that are included only in the film wind up impacting my reactions to the story.

Thinking about how the film and story interact in positive ways, might be its own interesting discussion.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #90 on: December 08, 2007, 10:32:28 pm »
yes, I think that it is a natural tendency to blend our knowledge that we gain from both sources. Back in the early days of Star Wars I noticed this phenom, in discussions at Cons I would run into people who ascribed facts and character motivations to the films that were based upon what they had read in the novelizations and take-off stories.

There was finally a consensus reached in resolving those fun little trivia disuputes. The Star Wars films were deemed to be canon.

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #91 on: December 09, 2007, 10:40:58 am »
It seems that because Jack is much, too much, tragic in the movie (which makes it maybe more anti-gay), then I would prefer the book.

Of course the book had also negatives too! Is it more pro-gay?

Hugs!

Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #92 on: December 09, 2007, 01:44:44 pm »
Artiste, neither the short story nor the movie are either pro-gay or anti-gay. The short story has no agenda, social political or otherwise. It simply tells in beautiful fashion the tragic tale of two closeted bisexual men living in a rural homophobic environment. Those of us who love the short story and the movie are free to ascribe any meaning we wish, but there is no agenda. We can take the experience of Jack and Ennis and relate them to our lives and hopefully learn something from it, but even if we learn nothing we can still be entertained.

Offline Front-Ranger

  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 30,287
  • Brokeback got us good.
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #93 on: December 09, 2007, 02:46:16 pm »
It seems that because Jack is much, too much, tragic in the movie (which makes it maybe more anti-gay), then I would prefer the book.

Of course the book had also negatives too! Is it more pro-gay?

Hugs!
There was an interesting interview with Ang Lee recently in the New York Times in which he said that he liked to take the side of the "losers" in his films. Of the characters in Brokeback Mountain, he said "Of course, gays...they're never going to win." But really, in the movie and in life, we all lose because of fear and hate. Even Aguirre had 25% loss...L.D. died, and Old Man Twist had nothing but an urnful of ashes to show for his life. Yes, Brokeback Mountain is a tragedy and in a sense you could call it anti-gay because it unabashedly shows the downside of the effects of hate and fear. For more of a "pro-gay"  movie you could watch Maurice, The Wedding Banquet, or Shelter.

But I agree with the others who say it is wrong to call Brokeback Mountain an anti-gay movie. It is an anti-hate and fear movie. To give another example, look at the Bible. It tells the story of an illigitimate child who was poor all his life, wandered around with a dozen itinerant deuces and came to a bad end on the cross. Would you call the Bible anti-Christian? No, I don't think so.
"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #94 on: December 09, 2007, 03:28:44 pm »
Thanks Front-Ranger, and thanks brokeplex!!

Front-Ranger, I like very much your comments here! You are now starting to see that in some ways the movie is anti-gay as in a sense you could call it anti-gay!! You say too: unabashedly shows the downside of the effects of hate and fear.
...
Front-Ranger, to that, may I say that your note about the movie showing the downside of the effects of hate and fear, are real in the film, and this is presented unabashedly, as you say! May, we gays or straights or others, learn from that!! But since the violence in it is too unabashedly, that is what puzzles me mostly (among other things that could be seen as anti-gay) as I see it way too much gratuitous... amd might lead others who are homphobic to hit upon a gay person as if it's OK to do so?? !! I pose that as a question to you and to all... and seek replies. Even though murders of gay men are uncalled for, they are happening as a free act to many persons... as some homophobic persons do not care about life, unfortunately!
...

Brokeplex, you say this: [Artiste, neither the short story nor the movie are either pro-gay or anti-gay. The short story has no agenda, social political or otherwise. It simply tells in beautiful fashion the tragic tale of two closeted bisexual men living in a rural homophobic environment. Those of us who love the short story and the movie are free to ascribe any meaning we wish.../i]
...

Brokeplex, may I add that the story as well as the movie has meaning. Everyone views the movie differently, and find something in it!! As to pro-gay and/or anti-gay??

Hugs, hugs!!


Offline serious crayons

  • Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 22,711
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #95 on: December 09, 2007, 07:35:34 pm »
Artiste, do I correctly understand you to be saying that BBM is anti-gay because you think that seeing Jack's possible killing will inspire audience members to go out and commit gay-bashing incidents or murders themselves?

I'll have to say, that doesn't make any sense at all to me. In fact, with all due respect, I'll have to go a step further and say it strikes me as completely absurd.

It's like trying to imagine someone watching "Sophie's Choice" or "Schindler's List" and then deciding to become a Nazi.

First of all, anybody who watches the movie already seems automatically, by definition, a member of that portion of the population least likely to be anti-gay or homophobic or likely to commit violence toward gays in the first place. Second, one big message of Brokeback Mountain, stated in the simplest possible terms, is that it's bad to kill gay men. Its gay characters are sympathetic and three dimensional and suffering. So if it's even possible to imagine a viewer who would otherwise be likely to commit anti-gay hate crimes somehow nevertheless choosing to see "Brokeback Mountain," I would say that the experience of watching the movie, if anything, makes them much LESS likely to commit violence toward gays than they were before.

Your repeated questions about anti-gay have made no sense to me. If I am now interpreting them correctly, I would have to say I couldn't disagree more.


Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #96 on: December 10, 2007, 12:19:13 am »
Artiste, do I correctly understand you to be saying that BBM is anti-gay because you think that seeing Jack's possible killing will inspire audience members to go out and commit gay-bashing incidents or murders themselves?

I'll have to say, that doesn't make any sense at all to me. In fact, with all due respect, I'll have to go a step further and say it strikes me as completely absurd.

It's like trying to imagine someone watching "Sophie's Choice" or "Schindler's List" and then deciding to become a Nazi.

First of all, anybody who watches the movie already seems automatically, by definition, a member of that portion of the population least likely to be anti-gay or homophobic or likely to commit violence toward gays in the first place. Second, one big message of Brokeback Mountain, stated in the simplest possible terms, is that it's bad to kill gay men. Its gay characters are sympathetic and three dimensional and suffering. So if it's even possible to imagine a viewer who would otherwise be likely to commit anti-gay hate crimes somehow nevertheless choosing to see "Brokeback Mountain," I would say that the experience of watching the movie, if anything, makes them much LESS likely to commit violence toward gays than they were before.

Your repeated questions about anti-gay have made no sense to me. If I am now interpreting them correctly, I would have to say I couldn't disagree more.



Ineedcrayons, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think that your analogy to the reaction of the general public to the Nazi violence depicted in "Sophie's Choice" and "Schindler's List" is right on target. "Brokeback Moutain" is a watershed in creating greater understanding in the general public about closeted gay/bisexuals, and about the true nature of the destructiveness of the closet.   

Offline Brown Eyes

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost Moderator
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 10,377
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #97 on: December 10, 2007, 12:42:53 am »
Ineedcrayons, I agree with you wholeheartedly. I think that your analogy to the reaction of the general public to the Nazi violence depicted in "Sophie's Choice" and "Schindler's List" is right on target. "Brokeback Moutain" is a watershed in creating greater understanding in the general public about closeted gay/bisexuals, and about the true nature of the destructiveness of the closet.   

Hey crayons and brokeplex, I'm just jumping in to say I agree with both of you as well.  I agree that the Sophie's Choice analogy is good.  And brokeplex, I really agree with what you said about BBM exposing the "true nature of the destructiveness of the closet."  That's such an important aspect of BBM I think.



the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #98 on: December 10, 2007, 12:49:49 am »
So, how do we convince Artiste? I want him to see the light!
:-)

injest

  • Guest
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #99 on: December 10, 2007, 12:55:33 am »
I wonder if when Artiste says 'antigay' he means homophobic...that the movie shows homophobia?

that situations or people in the movie are against gay people? in that sense it is true...there is a lot of homophobia in the movie. Aquirre's reaction to the boys...Alma's reaction...the clown...all these people were against gays.

Artiste am I close to what you are saying?

Offline brokebackjack

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 817
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #100 on: December 10, 2007, 07:02:46 am »
Not for nothing, I am SO glad I posed those questions!

Hopefully no one will say I'm being sexist, but.... there are few things I like better then asking a question and listening to the responses given by thoughtful, intelligent women. Women With Minds are all over the Brokie websites;  the active  participation of so many 'Anti-Paris Hilton' types help make BetterMost the adventure it is. I always get a new insight on a topic---even one which I'd felt had been talked to death--when Brokies who are women put their opinions forward...

I mean i like guys but really,  we can be on the dull side.
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline brokebackjack

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 817
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #101 on: December 10, 2007, 07:07:23 am »
OFFTOPIC:
 by the way, to those of you who have been trying to contact me--the phone was messed up, the keyboard got damaged. I am back in Denver as of 3 hours ago.

And the phone will be fixed tomorrow....much, much love!
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #102 on: December 11, 2007, 12:08:27 am »
Thanks very much all of you!!

Your questions are posed! I am very happy that you are posing such!!

I will not detail to-day this anti-gay expression that I see somewhat by the movie... because it is my bedtime and one can not think that much being exhausted! Since I am no spring-chicken like some of you studs and young ladies!!

What concerns me mostly is that some gay men that I communicated with had seen the BM movie and dislike it greatly! Never wanting to see it again!! Why? We must try to find out that??

There are also other concerns which puzzles me. Many women I feel and (I see in some ways) see the movie wanting it to be anti-gay!! They simply dispise the two main charactors!! Why?? Again, can this be an anti-gay thing??

These are only 2 questions, so far.

Some of you know me well enough by now that I seek justice, truth, data, and am pleased by your details, views and feelings which we all share here. Awaiting your news,

hugs!! Cheers too!!

Offline brokebackjack

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 817
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #103 on: December 11, 2007, 04:11:35 am »
I have never met a woman who saw BBM and despised the characters. Never.

I have had several friends tell me they are afraid to see Brokeback. They are gay men, gay men who refuse to see Brokeback because they are afraid of it, afraid of it's tremendous power. They  have seen the remarkable changes inspired by Brokeback in several friends, including me. And they do not wish to change.

They want their lives to be magically fixed, They are unwilling to do the work which must be done if real change occurs.....

"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline Oregondoggie

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Mountain Resident
  • *****
  • Posts: 185
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #104 on: December 11, 2007, 04:51:13 am »
This thread is meant to compare the movie with the book, but I have to agree with the off-topic remarks of Artiste that I have run into younger gay men who don't "get it" at all.  Maybe it's a time thing.

The plight of the women in the film, far more detailed than in the short story, is a cause for sadness.  My best female friend here in Portland lost her husband to AIDS.  She still reels from the knowledge that he was "Bi" or "Gay"...  When I bought the DVD, she borrowed it to see alone.  It became a topic off-limits.  We could not discuss it.  Just as I wish it would cease being a point of discussion here on this thread.   

Offline brokebackjack

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 817
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #105 on: December 11, 2007, 04:57:29 am »
What DO you all think of the way sparely drawn characters in the short story were fleshed out in the film? Do you think Alma was 'the short story Alma', enlarged for the film? Did Lureen seem to be the woman Annie wrote about?
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #106 on: December 11, 2007, 07:38:10 pm »
Thanks!

Brokebackjack, you say: They want their lives to be magically fixed, They are unwilling to do the work which must be done if real change occurs.....


....................................................................................

I guess that every person (straights as well as gays, but gays live and have to live in fear) wants some sort of security? Plus, we (humans) all are afraid of change? Of course, their is always degrees and changes in one's lives, but they do so radically or fast?? Maybe the BM movie or book does that, radically or too fast for some??
..................
..................

Oregondoggie, I do not see that my topic is off-topic, If so, so is yours? Plight of women...???
I accept this somewhatThe plight of the women in the film, far more detailed than in the short story, is a cause for sadness.  My best female friend here in Portland lost her husband to AIDS.  She still reels from the knowledge that he was "Bi" or "Gay"...  When I bought the DVD, she borrowed it to see alone.  It became a topic off-limits.  We could not discuss it.  Just as I wish... :
.................................................................................................

Then, may I say that you are re-acting maybe like the gay men you said about? I agree that everyone wants to stir away from a subject when it is painful or difficult!! It is better to really get involved, is it not?? May I ask?
I find puzzling, as I am a gay man, that the accent is not only on the gay or bi lives (especially of the main two charactors who can be considered also maybe only heterosexuals by some), that not much as far as I concerned the film helps gay men, but why about straight women in it so much about them?? So, I do ask about that concerning what might be preferred the movie or the film, concerning these two main points (the 2 main charators concentrating about the men, as well as the thie women (their wives)... as I think that those questions posed are important!!

Hugs, hugs!!

Offline Aussie Chris

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 613
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #107 on: December 12, 2007, 08:09:42 am »
Then, may I say that you are re-acting maybe like the gay men you said about? I agree that everyone wants to stir away from a subject when it is painful or difficult!! It is better to really get involved, is it not?? May I ask?
I find puzzling, as I am a gay man, that the accent is not only on the gay or bi lives (especially of the main two charactors who can be considered also maybe only heterosexuals by some), that not much as far as I concerned the film helps gay men, but why about straight women in it so much about them?? So, I do ask about that concerning what might be preferred the movie or the film, concerning these two main points (the 2 main characters concentrating about the men, as well as the the women (their wives)... as I think that those questions posed are important!!

For what it's worth, I think it's worth exploring some of these issues, and I appreciate that you've put some time into explaining this Artiste.  I also think you make some valid points here, but I get the impression that you are lamenting the suffering of Ennis and forgetting that that's the point of the film.  The audience is supposed to feel frustrated.  We are asked to empathise with the situation each character find themselves in, and to relate to them.  Morals then present themselves as we think about the lot of Ennis, or Jack, or Alma as we consider what we think the character should have done.  Without this the story would simply be: boy meet boy... and lives happily ever after.  A few minutes later the audience would leave the cinema quite miffed that the film only runs for 30 minutes!  Hmmm.

Ok, so here's where I hook this conversation back to the topic in question (just for you Oregondoggie).  The book is very superficial when it comes to the women of the story.  Because of this, in my opinion, we don't connect to Jack & Ennis in the same way as we do in the film.  To me it's all the more tragic that the boys muck up their own lives, but they also hurt the people closest to them.  That's what's so tragic.  I feel sorry for Alma, it wasn't her fault Ennis made a mistake.  So if she resented Ennis somewhat, I completely don't blame her.  Do we get any of this from the book?  Maybe, a little, but the film treats this as an important theme and is richer as a result.

For me the book is equally powerful, but for different reasons.  It is trailblazing, it is unique, it is paradoxically succinct and epic at the same time.  It awes me that such depth and texture can be conveyed in so few pages, and to be so moved by the themes.  But many of these achievements can be attributed to the film also, as if Ang Lee "upped the ante" of the film's texture and substance and combined these with a subtlety we don't always get in films.

So do I think the film or book is better?  I think the film does more with the material in all the right ways.  Really, does anyone think we would all be here without the film, or if the film was a dud?  Would the book alone still have us analysing this story?  Doubtful.  The film is better, definitely.
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #108 on: December 12, 2007, 10:56:45 am »


What concerns me mostly is that some gay men that I communicated with had seen the BM movie and dislike it greatly! Never wanting to see it again!! Why? We must try to find out that??

There are also other concerns which puzzles me. Many women I feel and (I see in some ways) see the movie wanting it to be anti-gay!! They simply dispise the two main charactors!! Why?? Again, can this be an anti-gay thing??

Artiste, perhaps I wasn't paying close enough attention to you but, this is the first time that I have read one of your posts about Brokeback being "anti-Gay" that you have offered a discussable reason for this.

You have met gay men who dislike BM? Tell us about their demographics, I am curious. I know younger gay men who are a bit bored by it, D.L. is one. He knows my story with Chris and sees the analogy, but he just drifts off during the movie while I am tearing up.

You know of women who want the movie to be anti-gay? This is something that I also have not run into. My conservative Southern Baptist sister was unexpectedly moved sympathetically by the movie.

Tell us the details of the those men and women who have reacted negatively to BM.

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #109 on: December 12, 2007, 06:06:35 pm »
Thanks Aussie Chris, and thanks brokeplex!!

Aussie Chris, you bring up good points. I will re-read them. Which point you want me to talk about?
.........

Brokeplex, concerning females who disliked the BM movie, there are many, many, many!! I have found that on sites where you can give your impressions about the film. These women or ladies do, however, despise the two main (gay?) charactors (Ennis and Jack), because they got married as had wives; they still puzzle me, but I undertand some of it since a few ladies here explained that a bit. So, their accent on those sites are not for pro-gay, but anti-gay, disliking Ennis and Jack!! I wonder why?? I would love most or some of those to discuss that with us on Bettermost, to detail that and their feelings!!

..................................................................

Aussie Chris: Like brokeplex and others here, you amaze me and you can be assured that I am happy that you do. Your thoughts are revealing; they help me. Yes, I may lament the lives of Ennis and Jack (since I now that they are mine), and less so for their wives!! Maybe, that is so because I am a gay man?? But since I sense that the accent of the movie is maybe too much on wives, I think that is one source where gay men might dislike or hate that film ( and see it as anti-gay, in a way ) ??

.............
As to liking the story or movie, I think that we are far away to determine that yet!

Awaiting your news gentlemen and ladies,

hugs!!

Offline Aussie Chris

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 613
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #110 on: December 13, 2007, 08:35:49 am »
But since I sense that the accent of the movie is maybe too much on wives, I think that is one source where gay men might dislike or hate that film (and see it as anti-gay, in a way ) ??

I think you should answer the questions that you want to Artiste.  Maybe start with this one though: what do you mean by the movie is maybe too much on wives?  I don't think the film spent too much time with the wives.  But even if it did lets not forget that the wives were just as much victims as Jack & Ennis.  I don't understand why you seem to have such a problem with them.  Do you?

And when you finish with this one, here's the next question: why do you think people who hate the film see it as anti-gay (in a way)?
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #111 on: December 13, 2007, 01:47:33 pm »
Thanks Aussie Chris!!

It is obious that the movie does accent in many ways the difficulties of being female as well as wives!!

I am very puzzled as to why that is so numerous!! In a way, it does make the film anti-gay, to some persons!! Instead of remaining with the gay theme... if that what is the main aim. But we must not forget that it is  Annie who wrote the story and that she is a woman and a lady; she is obvious (to me) confused about female issues and tries to solve some by her book maybe, but the movie does much more of that?? The movie was created with a script not only done by a male but also by a female!! Gays or bi, do suffer in the movie and in the book; but also females do too, much more by the movie?? I am happy that those issues of freedom for ladies are in the movie too; however, why so much??

These are not only women issues but gay issues too?? Does Annie bring about too the subject of lesbians, and does the movie?? She could have done so... if she had wanted; so could have the movie; both touches but slightly it only, to my view.

The deviant idea that gays and bi men are so portrayed by the movie, is adamant!! Very clear!! Why, because, it is made by straights?? Why??

Many questions and issues remain un-explained to date!!

The BM movie tips towards feminism (luckily  I think) and I wonder why??

Hugs!!

Offline LauraGigs

  • Moderator
  • BetterMost 1000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 2,447
    • My Design Portfolio
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #112 on: December 13, 2007, 01:55:27 pm »
Artiste, answer this question:  have you read the short story?

Offline Aussie Chris

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 613
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #113 on: December 13, 2007, 05:09:54 pm »
I am very puzzled as to why that is so numerous!! In a way, it does make the film anti-gay, to some persons!! Instead of remaining with the gay theme... if that what is the main aim. But we must not forget that it is  Annie who wrote the story and that she is a woman and a lady; she is obvious (to me) confused about female issues and tries to solve some by her book maybe, but the movie does much more of that?? The movie was created with a script not only done by a male but also by a female!! Gays or bi, do suffer in the movie and in the book; but also females do too, much more by the movie?? I am happy that those issues of freedom for ladies are in the movie too; however, why so much??

Artiste, this is very hard to follow, but I don't think you answered my question either: Are you saying you think the film spends too much time on the wives?  If so why?  What's wrong with the amount of time spent on the wives?

And to suggest that AP has "female issues" is argumentative and unfounded, in my opinion.  Why do you say such things?
Nothing is as common as the wish to be remarkable - William Shakespeare

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #114 on: December 14, 2007, 06:05:52 pm »
Thanks LauraGigs, and thanks Aussi Chris!!

LauraGigs, I will answer you firstly since your comment appears first, and I think that I can reply to you.
I read some or all of Annie's book, but which one I do not remember. I certainly want to do so again, not only because of gay, bi or straight issues, she seems to do; I will be reading this time relight if there are female issues too (if I may use that term). Do you think that she does about female issues??
.................................

Aussi Chris: Yes, I do think that the film spends too much time on wives, to use your word; if that is what the script authors wanted, then maybe they do not spend enough time!!

As to answer why, if the film was meant to be for pro-gay issues, then it does not spend enough time, concerning that, not at all to my view, and understanding so far (but that can change as I am trying to evaluate)with myself and with others the movie!!
............

I must go as I am late.

Please comment, answer, or pose questions you two and you all, details or not, as you wish, as am awaiting your news,

hugs!! Hugs!!



Offline brokebackjack

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 817
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #115 on: December 18, 2007, 02:51:30 pm »
You have to read the book. It is only about 40 pages.
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline brokebackjack

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 817
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #116 on: December 18, 2007, 02:55:47 pm »
Oh--forgit to answer.

Artiste, the people who refused to watch simply do NOT want to change.  At all. They arer happy complaining--or so it seems to me, and I have known some of them many years. If true change DID occur, the speed of that change would not matter. The mere fact of change would matter and they do not want to do it.

They would rather bitch about how miserable they are.

Change is not easy...I have had an enormous amount of chaqnge, yet sometimes I STILL bitch about how miserable it is. The thing is, it gets dealt with....while the others don't deal with anything. I am less and less friendly with them.
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #117 on: December 27, 2007, 07:34:26 pm »
Thanks brokebackjack, thanks AussieChris, thanks LauraGigs, and thanks to all others.

So I may answer later on the question: Short story or movie, I prefer, may I ask to all of you: if the film was meant to be for pro-gay issues??

Brokenbackjack, you saying that some persons never want to change their lives? Never? Even if they read Annie's book or the BM movie? One brother of mine cut out quickly in front of me, the Ennis and Jack sex scene, while he and I watched the BM movie, but I seem to recall that he left the kissing one in - he is straight and did not know what I had asked of him when I was with him suggesting he rent the BM movie!! Will he change? Did he after seeing that movie... not at first since he bitched for days while I visited him and his family, but I think he did somewhat later... a bit or a start changed?? !! You know that I am a gay man! That brother knows that too of me... but always say sternly otherwise quoting the bible or so for mariage to be only sacred for a woman and man union!! He surprised me one day... you want to know?

Aussie Chris, you do not see any female issues in the BM movie?

LauraGigs, I yearn to read again Annie's story. Must refind it. Glad you mention that!

Hugs, hugs, hugs!!!  Happy Gay Holidays and give unwanted or unneed gifts a new home if the giver wants to as you do suggest...since too many persons living on the streets that need our help in wondrous ways!! Good idea??

Offline brokebackjack

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • Brokeback Got Me Good
  • *****
  • Posts: 817
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #118 on: December 28, 2007, 07:29:04 am »
ARTISTE!!!!!

Joyeaux Noel et bonne annee!!!!!


I think some people simply do not WANT to change. I have one person very much in mind when saying that, a gay man whose life is as predictable as a clock. He does not like where he is. He is actually appalled and scared to death at the situation of his life. Yet refuses to acknowledge that change is even needed on any level. It is needed and more then needed. He knows this. Yet he wants no part of change and refuses to so much as mention the possibility of change. The very idea scares him to death.

He cannot deal with change, any change. He MUST, for example, find a new occupation. He refuses to do so. He refuses to even consider it. There is no possibility of his continuing with the same occupation, he will not be hired by any company.

Yet he openly tells us he has no need to change.

He will continue this until he is on the verge of ruin, when it will be too late. We--everyone he knows--has spoken with him about this. He refuses to admit he must change, and the result will be disaster. Astonishingly, EVERY FRIEND HE HAS tells him in detail why and how, yet he will not change because he does not wish to change.

He has no relationship and has never really had one. He gains solace from anonymous sex.  He refuses to watch Brokeback Mountain because he knows several people hose lives have changed dramatically BECAUSE of Brokeback.

He mocks the film, without ever having VIEWED THE FILM.

He openly says if we allowed a film to change us we were crazy.

He became angry when we invited him to a small party, and he arrived, to find we were going to view Brokeback: he said he had no need to watch any film which would tell him to change, and left.

Yes, there are some people who will watch their lives collapse rather then change, and he is one of them.

Much love to you, and all happiness in the coming year!  I hope to get to Montreal  sometime this year and if I/we DO, I must say that there is nothing I would like more then to sit down and hear Artiste's Questions IN PERSON!!!!!
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline brokeplex

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • BetterMost 5000+ Posts Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 7,247
  • LCARS
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #119 on: December 28, 2007, 12:16:38 pm »
Maybe your friend is in deep denial about the truth of his life. Sometimes there is little that we can do to help others in denial, whatever facts you present, they tend to discount them and deny them. My hope for your friend is that he will one day begin to see the truth and change his life and become a happier person. But, he has to take that step himself.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

  • BetterMost Supporter!
  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • *****
  • Posts: 31,165
  • "He somebody you cowboy'd with?"
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #120 on: December 28, 2007, 12:48:01 pm »
If nothing else, at least do something before he's financially ruined.  :(
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Artiste

  • The BetterMost 10,000 Post Club
  • ********
  • Posts: 15,998
Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #121 on: December 28, 2007, 01:43:38 pm »
Thanks Jeff Wrangler, thanks brokeplex, thanks brokebackjack, and thanks to all too!!

Wow, wow, you sure describe someone brokebackjack!! Your story even touches me about myself, may I say!

I do not know how to answer. I am now nervous a bit about your story... since it is I as well as about many others, I suppose. The only thing that comes to mind immediately is that we try to protect, since we like our comfort zone!! Is that it?

It reminds me about the lady that was murdered in Paskistan yesterday; she was intriguing and so brave!!
I want to open my country. People take freedom for granted... she said!! I feel that I must play my role in trying to save my country: Paskistan!! Her portrait is that she was the First woman to be president in an muslim country, was elected twice as that, her father had been too that but was hanged after for it or so by rivals, her two brothers were murdered too, but she returned to that instability as she wanted females to have a voice in such country, plus wanted it to be more democratic!! Her comfort zones as knowledge and that being herself, she continued towards freedom... since she believed that islam protected her even if she was christian educated (in Pakistan, then in the USA and England). Hard to say, but she advance even her comfort zone, it seems evident. And for others, as for freedom. She embraced freedom! She could have continued to live in another country like in England or in the USA, since she was very wealthy financially... likely still. Her comfort was reaching continued freedom!!

Freedom attracts some persons while others are like slaves...being in some ways, depressed or in fear??
We all take turns, I guess, in depression, like in the BM movie or story?? We all fear!!


I remember searching with a former pal many years ago, for an appartment to rent. So when we arrived, the owner of the house was to maybe rent to us, even if he was putting out his long time tenant who now had no money and was being put out in the street because he (this tenant) believed God was to give him $! I did not return to rent it! But the owner did not contact us neither, as he was likely anti-gay we felt! Some persons are too far gone, I guess, in order to cope alone!!

I was shocked, may I repeat this story. I heard recently on TV that most, or nearly half and maybe half (I can not remember) that soldiers who had been in the war, were living on the streets in the USA! Why? Is this more than comfort zone? My two nieces in California, once their first husbands returned from war, they (husband and wifes...) were not comfortable to live together anymore, so these ladies re-married and now have second husbands who are not former soldiers likely??!! For a former soldier, comfort zone for himself is very difficult. How to help and be helped??

The person I was sharing my art studio with in New York City was a former USA soldier. He felt that his life was hard... and did have to change it many times, since he had no choice. I saw that he sought comfort too!

You want some of my stories, real ones about moi? They seem to be about your story.

Concerning my next exhibition, it will be in Montreal, the end of September and the first week of October 2008, welcome... yes bienvenue!! You will be asking me questions or you will be answering mine?? Whatever will be, will be... as the song says!!

May we all continue as well as have our comfort zone plus newness, as to the short stories in our lives, or like in the BM movie in 2008 too!!
Hugs!!