Author Topic: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?  (Read 39293 times)

Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #40 on: December 01, 2007, 03:36:15 am »
To say it's anti-gay is like movies about racism are anti-black, or movies depicting Jesus' crucifixion are anti-Christ.

Wouldn't it be reasonable to say that crucifixion movies are anti-Christ, after all it was Christ that was killed.  So while BBM isn't anti-gay, you could argue that it's anti-Jack!  Um, hi Katherine!  ;)
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Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #41 on: December 01, 2007, 03:21:48 pm »
Anti-Jack or anti-gay, same thing!!??

Certainly anti-Jack!! Glad you awake persons to that!

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Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2007, 07:11:26 pm »
Anti-Jack or anti-gay, same thing!!??

No Artiste, it is not.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2007, 07:41:56 pm »
Wouldn't it be reasonable to say that crucifixion movies are anti-Christ, after all it was Christ that was killed.  So while BBM isn't anti-gay, you could argue that it's anti-Jack!  Um, hi Katherine!  ;)

Hi Chris! Nice to see you! I'm not sure I understand your comment, though. If the filmmakers clearly take the position that killing the person or persons was wrong, then the movies are not anti-whatever. In BBM, the people who killed Earl were anti-Earl, and if Jack was murdered, then whoever did it was anti-Jack. But the movie isn't anti-Earl and -Jack.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your point.  ???


Offline Aussie Chris

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Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #44 on: December 01, 2007, 08:57:56 pm »
Hi Chris! Nice to see you! I'm not sure I understand your comment, though. If the filmmakers clearly take the position that killing the person or persons was wrong, then the movies are not anti-whatever. In BBM, the people who killed Earl were anti-Earl, and if Jack was murdered, then whoever did it was anti-Jack. But the movie isn't anti-Earl and -Jack.

No I don't think you missed my point, just that there is a very big difference between the killing of a character (Jack, Jesus, etc) and the prejudice of a social group (gays, Christians, etc).  I was pointing out that crucifixion films may be anti-Christ, but not anti-Christian.  Wrt the writers of BBM, one way or another they intended to kill Jack to serve the narrative.  Additionally, Jack regularly appeared as being picked on (in the bar after the rodeo, the guys calling Jack a piss-ant, Lorene's father, Jack's father, etc, etc), and all of this was intended to present Jack as a character to sympathise with.  And with this in mind I put to you that the film was anti-Jack, but where talking about a character here.  So while you could argue that the film is negative towards Jack as a character I don't think people named Jack should feel concerned.  In my mind though, anti-gay is too generic a term to be used in this way and to say BBM is anti-gay is to suggest a negativity was intended towards gay people, which I strongly dispute.
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Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #45 on: December 01, 2007, 09:11:50 pm »
No I don't think you missed my point, just that there is a very big difference between the killing of a character (Jack, Jesus, etc) and the prejudice of a social group (gays, Christians, etc).  I was pointing out that crucifixion films may be anti-Christ, but not anti-Christian.  Wrt the writers of BBM, one way or another they intended to kill Jack to serve the narrative.  Additionally, Jack regularly appeared as being picked on (in the bar after the rodeo, the guys calling Jack a piss-ant, Lorene's father, Jack's father, etc, etc), and all of this was intended to present Jack as a character to sympathise with.  And with this in mind I put to you that the film was anti-Jack, but where talking about a character here.  So while you could argue that the film is negative towards Jack as a character I don't think people named Jack should feel concerned.  In my mind though, anti-gay is too generic a term to be used in this way and to say BBM is anti-gay is to suggest a negativity was intended towards gay people, which I strongly dispute.

I think that you are on target here. I have never believed that the film or short story is anti-gay. The movie is intensely painful, I think we all agree on that. For some it is so painful that for some of the truth in the movie may be temporarily lost or temporarily can't be faced because of the rawness of the emotions which are dredged up. BM the  movie hits my life so close to home that after watching it I was numb for some time afterwards.

Like Artiste, the love of my life died. He and I had a closeted affair for over two decades. He was not murdered, but was killed in a traffic accident. The movie dredged up my rage and sense of being short-changed in life, and it was a healing miracle that BM affected me that way. I was then began to deal with and resolve anger that I didn't even know I was burdened with.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #46 on: December 01, 2007, 10:00:29 pm »
No I don't think you missed my point, just that there is a very big difference between the killing of a character (Jack, Jesus, etc) and the prejudice of a social group (gays, Christians, etc).  I was pointing out that crucifixion films may be anti-Christ, but not anti-Christian.  Wrt the writers of BBM, one way or another they intended to kill Jack to serve the narrative.  Additionally, Jack regularly appeared as being picked on (in the bar after the rodeo, the guys calling Jack a piss-ant, Lorene's father, Jack's father, etc, etc), and all of this was intended to present Jack as a character to sympathise with.  And with this in mind I put to you that the film was anti-Jack, but where talking about a character here.  So while you could argue that the film is negative towards Jack as a character I don't think people named Jack should feel concerned.  In my mind though, anti-gay is too generic a term to be used in this way and to say BBM is anti-gay is to suggest a negativity was intended towards gay people, which I strongly dispute.

OK, I guess partly what divides us is a difference in interpretation of what it means to say a film is "anti" something. I see the distinction you make between Christ and Christians, Jacks and gays, individuals and groups. But to me, saying a film is "anti-Jack," or "anti-Christ," or that it's negative to those characters, it means the filmmakers' POV opposes Jack and Christ. When clearly, those films sympathize with them. What they oppose are the forces and/or people that led to their deaths. So BBM is neither anti-Jack nor anti-gay, it's anti homophobia.

Am I making sense? In other words, if a bad thing kills some of the lead characters, that doesn't mean the film is anti those characters, it's anti the thing that kills them.

For example, Titanic not anti-Jack (Leonardo DiCaprio's character), just because he dies at the end of the film -- on the contrary, it's pro-Jack, because it paints him as a sympathetic character whose death is sad. Hotel Rwanda, is not anti the Tutsis and their supporters getting slaughtered, it's sympathetic to the Tutsis' tragedy. Roots it's not anti-slaves. Michael Moore's movies are not anti the people he depicts as victims of whatever system he's taking on (the health care system, in his latest film), it's anti the system itself, even if that -- in the film -- is the (at least temporary) victor.

Those aren't even the best examples, because I'm blanking out on better ones. But am I making sense anyway?


Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #47 on: December 02, 2007, 01:54:42 pm »
You have made a great deal of sense and I agree with you. I think that the opinion concerning whether the film is anti-gay has its source in the fact that the film causes pain in some viewers who have experienced traumas similar to Ennis and Jack. It also caused terrific pain in me, but it was a pain that I needed to feel, and because of it I resolved some issues in my life and moved on. Older and a little bit wiser. Perhaps there are those who have not reconciled the pain that BM causes in them, and they need time and patience to learn to deal with this. I am always ready to listen to anyone who still needs help in dealing with the crummy hand that society has dealt to many gay men like Ennis and Jack.

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #48 on: December 02, 2007, 02:42:24 pm »
Thanks Aussie Chris, and thanks to all too!!

Since my long and many replies disappered many times to-day, I am now brief with this one. I will firstly try to place some words and thought about what you say first: Jack regularly appeared as being picked on (in the bar after the rodeo, the guys calling Jack a piss-ant, Lorene's father, Jack's father, etc, etc), and all of this was intended to present Jack as a character to sympathise with.  And with this in mind I put to you that the film was anti-Jack, but where talking about a character here.
...
Just that, Jack was too much picked on!! That is what makes the movie somewhat anti-gay! May I say!

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Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 15/07: Short story or movie, which one do you prefer?
« Reply #49 on: December 02, 2007, 02:44:07 pm »
I forgot! As far as saying that I prefer the movie or the book, that is one reason maybe that the book might be better?

Hugs!