Author Topic: V for Vendetta  (Read 10746 times)

rtprod

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Re: V for Vendetta
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2006, 11:49:58 am »
i never knew this. is he mtf or ftm?

about V, there were some things I liked and some things I didn't like. The Valerie sequence was the highlight of the film. I did like that it was the what gave Evie the strength to find self-actualization. It was beautifully shot, and the juxtaposition between the golden glow of Valerie's story and Evie's dark tortures was gorgeously done. The thing I didn't like was that I couldn't reconcile V's tactic. His "I tortured you because I knew it'd be good for you" is just too close to GW taking away our civil rights because "he knows what good for us".

Hi Starboard,

Except the critical difference is that V is mobilizing Evie and the populus against George Bush, isn't he? 

Oh, and Larry Wachowski is male to female trans, or in the process. 

rt

Offline starboardlight

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Re: V for Vendetta
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2006, 02:00:51 pm »
Hi Starboard,

Except the critical difference is that V is mobilizing Evie and the populus against George Bush, isn't he? 

Oh, and Larry Wachowski is male to female trans, or in the process. 

rt

the thing is, does the end justifies the means? if GW's cause is justified, does it make it okay for him to take away our rights? He's certainly trying to mobilize us against another fascist evil. What would be the difference? I just have trouble with someone else trying to tell me that they know what's good for me.

We certainly see that Evie, herself, felt betrayed by it. It never became clear to me how she reconciled it. She was crying and angry one moment and then she was simply okay with it. That part didn't resonate with me.

SPOILERS
That's a good point, but I don't think V was supposed to be a conventionally sympathetic protagonist that the audience rooted for - he's a complex character, and what I liked about the film is that it is never clear whether he is really a hero or a villain. V even says at one point in the film "What they did to me was monstrous" and Evey replies "Then they created a monster". I think that's kinda true. The fact that he tortured Evey is definitely evidence of his monstrous side.
That might be the case. I'm not sure. I did get the feeling that we're suppose to root for V. The film set up the government as being completely evil and that he represents the rage of those people without voices. And in the end, everyone shows up wearing the mask, as if to say that V is all of us. Imo, we're suppose to identify with him.
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

rtprod

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Re: V for Vendetta
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2006, 02:31:46 pm »
the thing is, does the end justifies the means? if GW's cause is justified, does it make it okay for him to take away our rights? He's certainly trying to mobilize us against another fascist evil. What would be the difference? I just have trouble with someone else trying to tell me that they know what's good for me.

We certainly see that Evie, herself, felt betrayed by it. It never became clear to me how she reconciled it. She was crying and angry one moment and then she was simply okay with it. That part didn't resonate with me.
That might be the case. I'm not sure. I did get the feeling that we're suppose to root for V. The film set up the government as being completely evil and that he represents the rage of those people without voices. And in the end, everyone shows up wearing the mask, as if to say that V is all of us. Imo, we're suppose to identify with him.

I think in the context of this film it justifies the means, at least as a narrative device to move Evie on to where she needs to get psychologically--free.  She comes into her own consciousness and full power during this exercise.  I think she felt betrayed by it in the moment only, but understood its significance in her life later which is why she made good to return on her commitment come November.

Yes, that's exactly what I  took from the end -- and I had no problem identifying with him, worshipping him even.   :D

Offline starboardlight

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Re: V for Vendetta
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2006, 03:41:45 pm »
I think in the context of this film it justifies the means, at least as a narrative device to move Evie on to where she needs to get psychologically--free.  She comes into her own consciousness and full power during this exercise.  I think she felt betrayed by it in the moment only, but understood its significance in her life later which is why she made good to return on her commitment come November.

Yes, that's exactly what I  took from the end -- and I had no problem identifying with him, worshipping him even.   :D

you're right as a narrative device it works. if i take the film as just a story, it's great fun. but i also see it as wanting to be a commentary on GW's "War on Terror". On that level, that part of the film fell apart for me. I can't justify torture under any circumstance, especially if it's meant to fight against someone who uses torture.
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

rtprod

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Re: V for Vendetta
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2006, 04:49:42 pm »
you're right as a narrative device it works. if i take the film as just a story, it's great fun. but i also see it as wanting to be a commentary on GW's "War on Terror". On that level, that part of the film fell apart for me. I can't justify torture under any circumstance, especially if it's meant to fight against someone who uses torture.

Okay Starboard, let's have it out with our loving mano-a-mano here lol.

Can you really call what V did to Evie torture? I thought it was just simple deprivation really, and not too extreme...  Just basic interrogation and prisoner will breaking....

rt
« Last Edit: May 15, 2006, 04:53:55 pm by rtprod »

Offline starboardlight

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Re: V for Vendetta
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2006, 04:55:12 pm »
Okay Starboard, let's have it out with our loving mano-a-mano here lol.

Can you really call what V did to Evie torture? I thought it was just simple deprivation really, and not too extreme really...  Just basic interrogation and prisoner will breaking....

rt

i do. it's not physical pain, but emotional torture is just as cruel and inhumane to me.

as a matter of fact, GW also say that what they're doing in Guantanamo and even Abu Graib is "not torture" because they're not out right physical torture.
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

rtprod

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Re: V for Vendetta
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2006, 05:35:22 pm »
i do. it's not physical pain, but emotional torture is just as cruel and inhumane to me.

as a matter of fact, GW also say that what they're doing in Guantanamo and even Abu Graib is "not torture" because they're not out right physical torture.

My point is that I don't think what he did to her was actually torture or terribly inhumane either.  She was simply interrogated and kept in a cell for a few days.  She was certaintly fed and the extreme was her believing she might die by firing squad.  This was not to make merry from the thought of that event as a torturer would do, rather to get her over a wall she could not scale prior.   

It was a form of deprivation, a test, an exercise if you will, and he did NOT succeed at breaking her spirit.  In truth he was protecting her from the regime during that incarceration period while forcing her into self-examination and analysis to gain strength for the revolution he knew was coming.  What he did was a service to her.  He just helped shed what was left of the old Evie--afraid, hiding, running--and then rebuilt her into a creature without fear and possessing a center of gravity.  He did not succeed at taking away her identity and will during this episode, rather he forced her to find it herself and it became more powerful. And then she was set free, not only psycholgically but free into the world.  She was no longer dependent on him, oppressed by the government or her own limiting beliefs and fears. 

What happened at Guantanamo and Abu Graib is something opposite, which is making sport out of something dehumanizing and sordid strictly to wield gross abuses of "authority."  It's not the same thing as what V did in any way, or at least in my book.  V would never have let Evie be truly harmed in that he loved her chastely and she became indispensible to him.  He desired to empower her, to make her flower fully, to wake her up and then set her free. 

Much like Jeff Bridges in the great Peter Weir film Fearless, about plane crash survivors trying to integreate back into daily life, she learned through this episode that she had experienced something that transcended fear itself, and was now impervious, and could not go back.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2006, 01:00:11 am by rtprod »

Offline starboardlight

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Re: V for Vendetta
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2006, 08:34:31 pm »
My point is that I don't think what he did to her was actually torture or terribly inhumane either.  She was simply interrogated and kept in a cell for a few days.  She was certaintly fed and the extreme was her believing she might die by firing squad.  This was not to make merry from the thought of that event as a torturer would do, rather to get her over a wall she could not scale prior.   

It was a form of deprivation, a test, an exercise if you will, and he did NOT succeed at breaking her spirit.  In truth he was protecting her from the regime during that incarceration period while forcing her into self-examination and analysis to gain strength for the revolution he knew was coming.  What he did was a service to her.  He just helped shed what was left of the old Evie--afraid, hiding, running--and then rebuilt her into a creature without fear and possessing a center of gravity.  He did not succeed at taking away her identity and will during this episode, rather he forced her to find it herself and it became more powerful. And then she was set free, not only psycholgically but free into the world.  She was no longer dependent on him, oppressed by the government or her own limiting beliefs and fears. 

I understand what you're saying. I guess that where we all come to a piece of art with our own baggage and take from it what we put in. while i understand that it was necessary for Evie to go through that to find her transformation, I just couldn't justify it. It still felt like a totalitarian tactic, what ever his motives were, whether he would actually hurt her or not, he still took away her freedom and choice for that period of time. Were I in Evie's place, I'm not sure I'd forgive him so quickly. The film does stimulate thoughts and discussion and that's great when art does that. I give the film credit for that.
"To do is to be." Socrates. - "To be is to do." Plato. - "Do be do be do" Sinatra.

Offline Flashframe777

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Re: V for Vendetta
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2006, 12:56:24 am »
Rtprod and Starboard,

I am going to chime in with something I was taught: 

"Evil wears the mask of Good, and in its path leaves fear.  Good wears the mask of evil and in its path leaves peace."
"yet he is suffused with a sense of pleasure because Jack Twist was in his dream"


Offline Kd5000

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Re: V for Vendetta
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2006, 01:43:22 pm »
I liked V for Vendetta just the way the news was handled. Usually in these dystopic futures, it's obvious what your watching is alien to our own news.  Say 1984 or Farhenheit 451, it's someone reading out statistics in a monotone and dull manner.  Our news is so glammed up with beautiful ppl who annuciate every word with nuance and dramatization.  In this film, their news is still like our news service, but they are so obviouslyl just stating what the govt told them say. Pure propaganda. PRAVDA with a facelift.

On another take, why do you this rather dystopic vision of the future didn't catch the public attn like THE MATRIX???. It's too intellectual, poor marketing. I think it's been somewhat of b.o. disappointment.   Then again, it's sad to see something like Scary Movie #4 doing so well and more adult oriented films not taking the cake.  I mean you don't have to agree with all movies viewpoints to actually go see it and enjoy it...