TOTW 19/07: Why couldn't Jack learn to just be happy with things as they were af

[moremojo]

Jack and Ennis in the original story are distinctly less "heroic" than they might seem in the film, and even in the film they come across as seriously flawed individuals. It is a measure of Proulx's and the filmmakers' achievement that we come to deeply love and grieve for such characters, despite their less than admirable traits.

I don't see Jack's desire for cohabitation with the man he loves to be selfish. I see it as a natural (for him) impulse to build upon the feelings he has, and to honor the very special and rare connection he has made. Jack is more self-aware than Ennis, and realizes the urgency to seize the moment. This sense of urgency probably propels Jack into much of the behavior that can strike one as selfish. As Ennis himself comes to realize, time was indeed of the essence, and did after all run out for both of them.

[Katie77]

Why couldn't he learn to just be happy with things as they were??

Because he loved Ennis.....and he wanted more than what he had of him....

If he had been selfish or even manipulative, he would have given Ennis an ultimatum to either come with him, or leave him.......he didn't....he hung in there, hoping that one day Ennis would be with him and they could have the far better life that he pictured them both having.......

[Artiste]

Thanks to all!! Very informative!!

I think that both Ennis and Jack made emotional progress, (to use your expression Scott), but in different times... unfortunately!! How can two individuals make the very same progress at the same time?? Any gay or straight or otherwise couples out there, can describe if that is your glory??

As an example, with my last partner (whom I considered my lover in some ways), we made progress at different times, and some were nearly the same minutes (but minutes only I accent): like sex and non-sex, hugs, quieteness, too rare talks (since men do not really talk!! ??), etc.; even if we were together half of the weeks of each months... for a few years!

Concerning liberation, I feel that both Ennis and Jack did that to certain degrees I guess, but unfortunately at different times!!

At the start, when I wanted him (my last partner), I got that he was interested in someone else. So like Jack in the BM movie and Annie's story, I kept communicating with him. It did pay off in some ways. He saw that I was what he needed, he once told me early on! When he liberated himself, I closed; and there were vice versas too!! Guess maybe we could learn more from females, dare I ask since they think more about romance??

So Jack could not learn to be just happy the things as they were, so what, I say since one must go on trying to be HAPPY?? Should I say in being gay??

And brokeplex, you have fortunately given us some of your examples too with your Enniss' or Jacks', which has helped me a lot!! Thanks!

Hugs!!


Merry Gay Christmas to all on Bettermost and on earth with Great Holidays!!

[delalluvia]

As much as people love to almost deify these two men, and hate any insinuation that they are less than the heroes our collective memories recall, the fact is that Jack was a very selfish boy and man.  It effected his family, his relationship with Ennis and ultimately himself.  He couldn't accept the way things were because they were not the the way he wanted them to be.  I personally am of the belief that when he left Ennis that day in May, he left Ennis for good, but we will never know the answer to that one, but if that is the case, then in the end, it was Jack who made the most emotional progress.

Oh, I don't think anyone really idolizes and puts Ennis and Jack up on pedestals as any kind of hero.  They were all too human.  Both were cheats and liars.  Ennis was a particularly bad father and husband.  Jack used prostitutes.

Some people may romanticize them, but I don't think it's hero-worship.

[Katie77]

Oh, I don't think anyone really idolizes and puts Ennis and Jack up on pedestals as any kind of hero.  They were all too human.  Both were cheats and liars.  Ennis was a particularly bad father and husband.  Jack used prostitutes.

Some people may romanticize them, but I don't think it's hero-worship.

Thats right delalluvia, heros they were NOT......

They were young men caught up in "a goddamm bitch of an unsatisfactory situation"....and we watch how they deal with it.....plenty of mistakes thats for sure, they were far from perfect, but that didn't make us any less protective or sympathetic towards them.

[delalluvia]

Exactly.

[Artiste]

Wow, wow, you consider them (Ennis and Jack) not heroes!!

Are their wives them heroes, to you??

Do you think that Jack should have let things be?

Hugs!! Merry Christmas and Gay Holidays to you and to all persons who like to help the world be a better place!!

[delalluvia]

Wow, wow, you consider them (Ennis and Jack) not heroes!!

Are their wives them heroes, to you??

Do you think that Jack should have let things be?

Hugs!! Merry Christmas and Gay Holidays to you and to all persons who like to help the world be a better place!!

No one is a hero in BBM, Artiste, they are just normal people trying to deal with what they have been given in life.  Some deal with it better than others.

[jstephens9]

As much as people love to almost deify these two men, and hate any insinuation that they are less than the heroes our collective memories recall, the fact is that Jack was a very selfish boy and man.  It effected his family, his relationship with Ennis and ultimately himself.  He couldn't accept the way things were because they were not the the way he wanted them to be.  I personally am of the belief that when he left Ennis that day in May, he left Ennis for good, but we will never know the answer to that one, but if that is the case, then in the end, it was Jack who made the most emotional progress.

You may be right Scott. Since we never found out exactly how Jack reacted to his last time with Ennis we really don't know what would have happened. Maybe he really did leave Ennis for good. Maybe that truly was his breaking point. It is hard to say.

[Artiste]

Thanks Katie77, thanks delalluvia, thanks jstephens9,  thanks Scott, and thanks to all others too!!

I really like your sentence delalluvia: No one is a hero in BBM, Artiste, they are just normal people trying to deal with what they have been given in life.  Some deal with it better than others!!
Dell and others: may I add at least in the book and the movie, we can think and see that they (each charactor) seeksimplehappiness with douceur, how can I translate that from the French??

.............So I add to: Why couldn't Jack learn to just be happy with things as they were... can not be since he did seek simple happiness with Ennis, as both had that for awhile, thank goodness especially on Brokeback Mountain!! Beholding that?? Forever, was that possible?? That glory, goodwill, peace, there on Brokeback Mountain was like a little heaven... and could that be for any gay (straight, bi or any others) as couple down on earth below?? Even then, as well as to-day??

Life seems impossible at times, alone or with another?? Never always happy with the way(s) things are?? Everyone touches us, even for a moment alone or as a couple?? May we all have clarity of understanding and sharing all of us on earth, straight, gay, bi, others!! Everyone can see and share with a smile, with a challenge, with other wondrous ways!! To me, BM is that and more as powerful unique paths each have to be unique as well as to couple... to love!!
..............................
Concerning if Jack had left Ennis for good, like you both say: [Posted by: jstephens9 
Insert Quote
Quote from: Scott on December 21, 2007, 03:58:27 PM
As much as people love to almost deify these two men, and hate any insinuation that they are less than the heroes our collective memories recall, the fact is that Jack was a very selfish boy and man.  It effected his family, his relationship with Ennis and ultimately himself.  He couldn't accept the way things were because they were not the the way he wanted them to be.  I personally am of the belief that when he left Ennis that day in May, he left Ennis for good, but we will never know the answer to that one, but if that is the case, then in the end, it was Jack who made the most emotional progress.


You may be right Scott. Since we never found out exactly how Jack reacted to his last time with Ennis we really don't know what would have happened. Maybe he really did leave Ennis for good. Maybe that truly was his breaking point. It is hard to say.
/i]
....
May I think that I guess that will always be a mystery. Good for a remake? At least BMII?? It is to be noted that both Ennis and Jack wanted perfectharmony between the two, as a couple, may I add!! Ennis was indeed scared at first to not only the sight of Jack at the first trailer scene, but also to accept Jack's flirt?? !! How to receive a stranger?? Both had a different approach then and there, right?? At least, there was effort on both and communications, there and then to start with!! Right??

The way(s) we perceive a stranger is always a mystery? No one can ever just be happy the way things are?? Neither Ennis nor Jack nor I, nor anyone???
Awaiting your news which are always marvelous to me you all,

hugs!! Have a Beautiful Merry Christmas and Wonderful Gay Holidays!!