Author Topic: Brokeback as an Anti-Gay Polemic : essay by W.C. Harris  (Read 45617 times)

Offline Artiste

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Re: Brokeback as an Anti-Gay Polemic : essay by W.C. Harris
« Reply #90 on: January 15, 2008, 12:34:20 pm »
Thanks again ifyoucantfixit!

Re-reading your comment, may I say that it (the many questions you pose within your brave comment) depends on the light or lights you put about the movie.

You want further details? As examples?

Your views are new to me and they are appreciated greatly by me. May I ask you many questions?

Hugs!


Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Brokeback as an Anti-Gay Polemic : essay by W.C. Harris
« Reply #91 on: January 15, 2008, 08:56:24 pm »
It wouldn't have been "Hollywooding up" the screenplay for McMurtry and Ossana to write scenes of "closeness, kissing, holding, etc." that aren't in Annie Proulx's text to begin with?

Yup!  A happy ending would also have been very Hollywood. 

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Brokeback as an Anti-Gay Polemic : essay by W.C. Harris
« Reply #92 on: January 15, 2008, 10:30:43 pm »

 It has been stated on this thread that BBM is a tragedy; 20 years of a loving relationship a tragedy?

Ennis and Jack didn’t “have to hide from the world”. They made choices that actually worked out well for a long time. I am quite sure they were not the only two gay men in WY in the 60s and 70s. They had a deep and lasting relationship and considering all the people in their lives, their choices seemed to have been good ones.

There have been many comments made over the last two years on this site and Cullen about Ennis’ failure as a man because of his adultery and non commitment etc. This is way off and I won’t get into an Ennis speech here, but I find such negative attitudes to be actually anti gay. Gay men do have to tweek the mainstream lifestyle to live; they do have to make adjustments and choices that perhaps straight folks may not have to make. To criticize Ennis or gays for making such choices is to me the anti gay possibility.


But, Herr Kaiser I think that BM is a tale of the unique type of tragedy which affects gays in the closet.

To me,the Brokeback story is a tragedy of unfulfilled potentials. The potential of happiness for Ennis and Jack's life was prevented by homophobia and a closet created by an intensively heteronorming society. The Brokeback story is about two fictional characters, but it can reach deeply into the lives and hearts of real men and women who have had their happiness thwarted by the closet. I can't watch the film without painful regrets over what might have been between Chris and myself.

Yes, Ennis and Jack did have to hide from the world and from each other.

They were forced to hide their feelings because of not only the judgement of a homophobic world, but also because of their own relentless internal judgements.
"I'm not no queer."  "Me neither."

I agree with you that many of those who have been harshly critical of Ennis are copping out on facing the real challenges in his life.

From the fictional character Ennis's point of view, he had no choices at all. He couldn't fathom another life path. Only from our point of view in 2008 are we able to see the alternatives. Now that I am retired, I am making it one of my missions to help closeted men see that there are really can be choices. Why?
I survived that type of closet and lived both to tell the tale and to love again.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Brokeback as an Anti-Gay Polemic : essay by W.C. Harris
« Reply #93 on: January 15, 2008, 10:49:53 pm »

The original story was not long enough to make a two hour movie.  Two hours is the average movie length today.  Some material had to be added.

So you are asking for things to be expanded upon that didn't even exist in the short story.  These elements of gay life were fabricated by the screen writers and added also.


Yes Clyde, it is very clear the Proulx short story is not long enough to fill out a 2 hour screen script for a major motion picture.

Of course the screen play had to be expanded over the short story, the question posed here concerns not the expansion, but the choices the screenwriters made in creating the expansion. And, I've been working part-time/off-and-on in the screenplay vineyard for some while now. Because of the length issue, turning great short stories into great screen plays can sometimes be a job of delicate cuttings and massive slathering pastings. Also, many scenes will read well in literature but fall flat on the camera, back stories have to be told in some fashion, hopefully other than the 'voice of God' over-narration - not every director can be as resourceful as Billy Wilder in handling a run thru narration.

But, what a screenwriter chooses to cut and especially what he or she chooses to expand may make statements about their predispositions towards certain subjects, or it may tell us what is their target audience.

You and I will disagree about the Arellano essay, and that is OK as we both see BM as a powerful film.

Clyde, you bet I'm aware of the divergences the screenplay makes from the short story, I'm kind of obsessed with it in fact.

In offering examples of potential additions to the dialog in the screenplay that were not used, I offered Jack's closeted life (away from Ennis) only as a counterpoint to the vastly expanded scenes of his heterosexual life. Choices were made by these screenwriters to only lightly touch on Jack's closeted life (away from Ennis), but to emphasize his life with Lureen. Those decisions speak of something beyond what is immediately obvious.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Brokeback as an Anti-Gay Polemic : essay by W.C. Harris
« Reply #94 on: January 15, 2008, 10:58:11 pm »

Gay has become to mean way more than a guy who wants to be in the arms of another guy. A way to dress and decorate. A way to vote. Political correctness at all cost. Relating to females more than men. Rainbow flags and parades. In later years viciousness and resentment. Youth and sex.

   

Brad, I think that you may be talking about much more than just labels and word choices here, am I right?

Or are you just saying that your choice is to not label homosexual and bisexual men who do not adopt the lifestyle you describe above as gay?

Help me with your thoughts here. I may be very close to your point of view, but I have chosen for convenience sake to use the word gay to describe all homosexual and bisexual men.

Is this perhaps not the best choice to make when describing men such as you talk about in your essay in "Beyond Brokeback"?

Are we in fact doing them a disservice by labelling them as gay?

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Brokeback as an Anti-Gay Polemic : essay by W.C. Harris
« Reply #95 on: January 15, 2008, 11:02:33 pm »
Choices were made by these screenwriters to only lightly touch on Jack's closeted life (away from Ennis), but to emphasize his life with Lureen. Those decisions speak of something beyond what is immediately obvious.

Personally I don't think they speak of anything more than the obvious intent to balance the scenes of Ennis's life with scenes of Jack's life.

And to tell the truth, I've long thought that wasn't really a very imaginative way to construct the movie. I think it's pretty obvious, actually.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Brokeback as an Anti-Gay Polemic : essay by W.C. Harris
« Reply #96 on: January 15, 2008, 11:03:25 pm »


Gawd, a gender-studies professor gets her fingers on Brokeback--will anyone even recognize it from the description? 

 

When I purchased "Reading Brokeback Mountain" I noted the bios of the authors of some of the essays and thought - Oh well, this is going to be a tiresome journey down PC lane, "pass me the Tums!"

I was surprised to be very moved by most of the essays, including Ms. Arellano's. So, I wanted to share some of their observations about BM.

I won't hold it against her that she labors with all of that "gender study" weight on her shoulders. She still did a great job!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Brokeback as an Anti-Gay Polemic : essay by W.C. Harris
« Reply #97 on: January 15, 2008, 11:11:07 pm »

  Using the same kind of logic that’s being used to say BBM is an anti-gay polemic, we could mount an equally cogent argument that ‘Romeo and Juliet’ is actually a cautionary tale for teenagers illustrating the dangers of fraternizing with your family’s enemies.  After all they both wind up dead in the end.  I think that argument would be just as perverse and preposterous.

   

Romeo and Juliet?

Tragic 'star-crossed' lovers. Their families feuding, their relatives dueling, inner conflicted, floundering on teenage hormones and lack of mature judgement.
Some of that does sound a bit similar to Brokeback.

But here is the difference.

Romeo and Juliet never hated themselves. Romeo and Juliet were not taught from little on to despise themselves because of their immutable feelings.

Heath Ledger said about the character Ennis, "Fear was instilled in him at an early age, and so the way he loved disgusted him."

Several film critics who are advocates of BM being considered a 'universal love story' have compared Romeo and Juliet with Ennis and Jack.

Sorry, no dice with me.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Brokeback as an Anti-Gay Polemic : essay by W.C. Harris
« Reply #98 on: January 16, 2008, 09:52:12 am »
Several film critics who are advocates of BM being considered a 'universal love story' have compared Romeo and Juliet with Ennis and Jack.

Sorry, no dice with me.

It's easy to see the superficial similarity. In both cases, the principals are really kept apart by social forces. But I agree, when you dig a little deeper, it doesn't quite wash.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2008, 02:38:49 pm by Jeff Wrangler »
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Clyde-B

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Re: Brokeback as an Anti-Gay Polemic : essay by W.C. Harris
« Reply #99 on: January 16, 2008, 11:11:23 am »
It's easy to see the superficial similarity. In both cases, the principals are really kept apart by social forces. But I agree, when you did a little deeper, it doesn't quite wash.

    I agree as well.  My using 'Romeo and Juliet' as an example was only to show that you could take a classic love story and force some pretty strange conclusions on it if you wanted to. 

     I intended no comparison beyond the fact that they are both tragic and involve romance.