TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?

[Artiste]

Hey, TV mentions that the murderers of gay men in Germany were christians - likely protestants, right? As in the BM movie right?

So I am on topic!

Awaiting your reply to that one,

hugs, hugs, ifyoucantfixit and Scott!!

[serious crayons]

Hey, TV mentions that the murderers of gay men in Germany were christians - likely protestants, right? As in the BM movie right?

So I am on topic!

No, as a reminder: the topic is not which religions are most likely to murder gay men. The topic is about the death of one particular (fictional) gay man.

[moremojo]

I agree that all topics raised here are interesting and relevant in themselves, while recognizing the importance of not veering too far from the topic of this particular thread (my apologies for having contributed to that). I just thought I'd note, in light of my own comments, that Ennis doesn't seem to be particularly religious, if at all (his mouthing of the Lord's Prayer at his wedding would seem to be the strongest support for any religious feeling), yet he's just as capable of virulent anti-queer violence as anyone. I'd argue that the cultural roots of Ennis's homophobia are religious, but no homophobe or gay basher need be actively or consciously religious (in fact, many are not).

[Scott6373]

I agree that all topics raised here are interesting and relevant in themselves, while recognizing the importance of not veering too far from the topic of this particular thread (my apologies for having contributed to that). I just thought I'd note, in light of my own comments, that Ennis doesn't seem to be particularly religious, if at all (his mouthing of the Lord's Prayer at his wedding would seem to be the strongest support for any religious feeling), yet he's just as capable of virulent anti-queer violence as anyone. I'd argue that the cultural roots of Ennis's homophobia are religious, but no homophobe or gay basher need be actively or consciously religious (in fact, many are not).

I never gave that a thought before now.  Maybe that would make a good discusion for another thread.  "Do you think Ennis would have been capable of violence against gays?"

[Jeff Wrangler]

I agree that all topics raised here are interesting and relevant in themselves, while recognizing the importance of not veering too far from the topic of this particular thread (my apologies for having contributed to that). I just thought I'd note, in light of my own comments, that Ennis doesn't seem to be particularly religious, if at all (his mouthing of the Lord's Prayer at his wedding would seem to be the strongest support for any religious feeling), yet he's just as capable of virulent anti-queer violence as anyone. I'd argue that the cultural roots of Ennis's homophobia are religious, but no homophobe or gay basher need be actively or consciously religious (in fact, many are not).

Indeed. I think serious involvement in any of the traditional mainline Protestant churches--not the Fred Phelps fringe but the old mainline denominations--would work against someone's becoming a gay basher. While certain of these denominations are struggling over the full inclusion of gays in the life of the church, I think they all would condemn anti-gay violence. I guess even the Roman Catholic church would be against anti-gay violence, but that's not my tradition, so I don't much pay attention to the Roman church.

[serious crayons]

I never gave that a thought before now.  Maybe that would make a good discusion for another thread.  "Do you think Ennis would have been capable of violence against gays?"

That would be a good thread, one you could open now in Open Forum, or perhaps suggest for a future TOTW. I think people would have some interesting and different views on this.

Indeed. I think serious involvement in any of the traditional mainline Protestant churches--not the Fred Phelps fringe but the old mainline denominations--would work against someone's becoming a gay basher. While certain of these denominations are struggling over the full inclusion of gays in the life of the church, I think they all would condemn anti-gay violence. I guess even the Roman Catholic church would be against anti-gay violence, but that's not my tradition, so I don't much pay attention to the Roman church.

And this would be a great topic for Anything Goes or Safe Haven.

Seriously, I'm not trying to a rigid topic enforcer. I think both those subjects are very interesting and would like to say something about them myself, but am avoiding doing so out of fear that some might object to detouring too far from the subject of Jack's death.

The subject of religion and anti-gay violence is particularly interesting. It's hard to imagine any Christian church condoning it (I specify Christian because I'm less familiar with other faiths). And yet obviously lots of people feel that homosexuality is at odds with Christian beliefs, which probably tacitly encourages some of the violence.

OK, that's all I'll say for now!

 

[Jeff Wrangler]

OK, that's all I'll say for now!

 

You go right ahead and say all you want about anything, Little Darlin'! 

[Artiste]

Ineedcrayons, I feel that you are not correct in trying to correct me (if I may use that term), while you let others and yourself do so... as just glanced some numerous after my last one.

Anyone  can see that murdering gays in that movie is of great importance, like it or not! It's there as a main subject! I do not like it, but it is there as an issue!! Re-see the movie and the book!!

You or another else saying otherwise arewrong, just murder of one is Ok? - not,it is not as far as I am concern, and surely you would not say that!

Besides the subjects of this BMmovie is not only the murders of only one] man... as you or others say!!

You would never say: murdering of a gay man is OK -orof many gay men, that is  OK too because they are gay men!!

I show my support for lives to live in peace for all and that to me is the aim of Annie!!

The subject of this thread is murder: Do you think that Jack was murdered or was it an accident? - I stick to my points!!

Hugs!

[delalluvia]

The subject of this thread is murder: Do you think that Jack was murdered or was it an accident? - I stick to my points!!

Hugs!

No, the subject of this thread is 'Do you think Jack was murdered OR was it an accident?'  Not 'gay men are murdered and it was based on religious bigotry/anti-gay conspiracy'.  Some of us on this thread don't believe a murder took place at all.  You tend to go off on tangents, Artiste that derail threads.  As the mods suggested, it would be a good idea to open new threads on your tangents - they are interesting - as they take away from this thread.

[serious crayons]

You or another else saying otherwise arewrong, just murder of one is Ok? - not,it is not as far as I am concern, and surely you would not say that!

Surely I would not.

Besides the subjects of this BMmovie is not only the murders of only one] man... as you or others say!!

You would never say: murdering of a gay man is OK -orof many gay men, that is  OK too because they are gay men!!

No.

The subject of this thread is murder: Do you think that Jack was murdered or was it an accident? - I stick to my points!

Me too. The subject of the thread is "Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?" Thus, the thread is about murders and accidents. But in general, up to a point, they must connect to Jack.

Artiste, maybe you have seen this poll. If not, please check it out. BetterMost members are currently discussing their views about OT posts. Most seem to feel that moderately OT posts are fine, but there's a limit to how much they want to diverge from the topic. So we have to find that happy medium.

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,16136.0.html