TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?

[David In Indy]

I've always been of the school that Jack was murdered, so that is how I voted. But I think we are not supposed to know. We are asked to draw our own conclusions. I suppose my assumptions are based on my experience as a gay man growing up in the Midwest. Wyoming really isn't the Midwest, but I think society in Wyoming and Indiana probably have very similar attitudes towards gay people.

[belbbmfan]

Accident.  All references to Jack's death are either from the narrator "Ennis didn't find out about the accident until months later" or from Ennis's point of view, which is referred to in a hallucinatory way.  Ennis had absolutely no way to "know for certain" that it was a tire iron.  However, he was certain that living openly with another man would lead to his and/or Jack's certain death and the comment by Jack's father about Jack planning to leave his wife and move in with "this other fella" fit  his paranoid conviction.  It was a measure of Ennis's paranoia that he so wilfully believed in Jack's murder.

Yes. This was the first question my husband asked me after we left the cinema, having seen the movie for the first time. I had read the story before seeing the movie, so I told him that Annie Proulx called it an 'accident'. Of course Ennis thought that Jack had been murdered. And the reasons why he thought that are the theme of this story, homophobia.

In my opinion, if Annie Proulx wanted to be more ambiguous, she could have said 'Ennis didn't find out about what happend to Jack, or about the incident. She didn't. The word 'accident' was deliberate.

[Lynne]

Photo courtesy of Eric. Thanks Bud!

I first voted that I tend to believe Jack's death was murder and also that we are not intended to know definitively.  But upon reflection, I'm going to change my vote to I believe Jack was murdered and that we are not intended to know for certain.

Tell you what, I stood at that fence line by the railroad track in Alberta, and I FELT something.  It was the only filming site that I visited (wasn't there the whole time, tho) where there seemed to be a presence left behind.  It didn't even look much like the brief glimpse we had in the film - the grass had grown high, etc...nevermind Brokies traipsing all over getting a good look.   I stood on the roadside for long minutes, not wanting to tread on the grass - it felt like a sacrilege to even step foot there.  It's sort of the feeling you get in a cemetery when you make a conscious effort to walk in the paths between the graves and not step on a one...respect for the dead, I guess.  Eventually when our little group had cleared the way some, I approached a bit closer (with trepidation) and took a few pictures.

That fence row reminded me so much of some of the similar footage in THE LARAMIE PROJECT that it was eerie.  I believe that location could very well have been chosen with Matthew Shepherd's murder in mind.

I agree that the ambiguity of Jack's death is one of the facets of Brokeback that makes it great.  But in my heart I know it was a hate crime - I don't know what that says about me, but there it is...

Lynne

[RouxB]

Who would have thought that after all this time and countless discussions of this subject-and the one that I am most vehement and passionate about-that I would get other/additional insight! Ah the layers! Toast and Paul mentioning the conversation with Twist Sr. just solidifies my leaning towards accident. The fact that Ennis could only imagine Jack not following through on his plan to move to LF with the "neighbor" is just a testament to Ennis' denial of Jack's love for him. He can't imagine that Jack just might not want to be with anyone other than him, Ennis.

Additionally, Fabienne has a good point-Annie Proulx is not casual with her descriptions. She is very deliberate and easily could, as Fabienne stated, used wording that was truly ambiguous. The fact that she did indeed call it an accident, well... In my mind that just adds to the tragedy that is Ennis. All this time his fear of the "tire irons"  holding him back when, in the end, it was the tire. I think if Jack had indeed been murdered, all Ennis' fears would have been validated and the message, for me, would have been quite different-not less-just different.

 

[Penthesilea]

My opinion used to change back and forth on this. But with time, it stays more and more on the accident side. Therefore I voted "I think it was an accident, but can't say for sure" and for "We are not supposed to know".


It's the same sentence by Annie Proulx that others have already cited, "Ennis didn't know about the accident for months...", which makes my opinion. This is not in Ennis's mind, it's not from his POV, it's the narrator's perspective.
Same as in the beginning (for example), when the story says Ennis was raised near Sage and Jack in Lightnig Flat - we don't doubt this, do we? And we don't doubt that Jack was buckteethed, Ennis had an high-arched nose and the last time they met was in May 1983. So why should we doubt the accident?
All indexes which point to murder are from Ennis's POV.


The movie I think is a bit different. I think the movie is more ambigious. The actual scene Ang Lee shows us, where Jack is beaten, makes such a huge impact it's hard to shake off. I remember when I first saw the movie, I thought Lureen tells us a story, but what we see is the not debatable, objective truth. Only later, when I was at home, I began to question it. Judging only from the movie, I'd say I simply don't know which version is true.

[belbbmfan]

The fact that she did indeed call it an accident, well... In my mind that just adds to the tragedy that is Ennis. All this time his fear of the "tire irons"  holding him back when, in the end, it was the tire. I think if Jack had indeed been murdered, all Ennis' fears would have been validated and the message, for me, would have been quite different-not less-just different.

 

Absolutely Rouxb. The fact that is was an accident makes this story even more tragic (if that's at all possible). To me, if Annie Proulx had called it 'murder', Ennis would have been 'right' in not choosing that sweet life. 
He wasn't, and that is truly heartbreaking to read.

I agree that the movie is more ambivalent. I wonder if that was deliberate? It must be. The images of 'Jack's murder' are very powerful and devastating. But the way that scene was added, it was clear that that was what Ennis was thinking, not Ang Lee showing us what really happend.

[nova20194]

Funny.....isn't it?  Brokies don't never seem to want to stop discussing this subject.  And rightfully so, I suppose.  It's truly one of the great mysteries of our time.

I've always felt that Jack was murdered, that I'll never know for sure, and that I was never supposed to know for sure.  I think a good poll question would be "Do you think that Annie Proulx knows for sure if it was murder or an accident?"  I don't think even she does.  I'm sure she's been asked the murder/accident question quite a few times.  I wonder how she manages to avoid answering it?

Does anyone remember seeing Heath, Jake, Michelle, and Anne on Oprah almost two years ago, sometime before the Oscars?  Oprah asked Anne how Jack died, and her response was something like "Isn't it obvious?"  Because I've always felt it was murder, I thought it was "obvious" from Anne's performance that Lureen was lying to Ennis about the accident.  I can also see, though, how one might believe that she was telling the truth, if you believed in the accident explanation.  I wonder if Anne knows the real answer, or if she merely has a strong opinion like many of us???

[Penthesilea]

"Do you think that Annie Proulx knows for sure if it was murder or an accident?"  I don't think even she does.  I'm sure she's been asked the murder/accident question quite a few times.  I wonder how she manages to avoid answering it?

I've asked myself this question sometimes.Thinking of what she wrote in "Getting movied", about the characters getting so damned real to her, you might easily be right.

I wonder if Anne knows the real answer, or if she merely has a strong opinion like many of us???

I think Anne Hathaway can't know the real answer, in the sense of objective truth, because there is no such thing. She might have a very strong opinion, like many of us, like you said.
And I think she was heavily influenced by Ang Lee. I think Ang Lee personally is sure it was murder. I think he managed to (almost) not favor the murder version in his movie, as the movie is ambigious. But from what he said in interviews I think he himself believes in the murder scenario.

[Kerry]

Deep within my heart of hearts, I have no doubt, and firmly believe most sincerely, that Jack was brutally murdered in a  vile and callous, frenzied attack. He was brutalised by a pack of homophobic thugs and left to drown in his own blood, all alone with no-one to comfort him, on the side of some godforsaken, miserable, dusty country road. This is my belief. My reality. I feel it in my gut. I know it in my heart. I saw it happen with my own  eyes, through the sweet, pure, nightmare vision of  blessed Ennis' worst fears. I wish to God it wasn't true. But it is true and it is impossible for me to progress beyond that fact. It's what Ennis believed and that's good enough for me.

[Penthesilea]

No matter how Jack died, Ennis may have been able to do something if he had been there.  That's the tragedy.  

Agreed.

"He didn't know which way it was, the tire iron or a real accident, blood choking down Jack's throat and nobody to turn him over."

I think this is a great part of Ennis's tragedy summarized in one sentence. He has to live with uncertainty and guilt. I think the second part of the sentence is sometimes a overlooked tragedy in itself. Nobody was there. Jack drowned in his own blood because nobody was there to help him.
If Ennis had been there, he might have been able to save Jack.