Author Topic: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?  (Read 86311 times)

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #240 on: January 29, 2008, 11:59:21 pm »
Thanks atz!

You do pose great questions.

That scene, I find it massive, too violent, but such violence by a gang does occurr often... in many ways unfortunately. So to me, that murderous scene had to be realistic... in order to bring about change now, soonest, forever, in our our so-called civilisations and in other countries where that is current!!

Jake must have wanted it to be real for Jack!! ??

It is OK to live in a dream (gay or other), but one has to protect oneself; since even straights, females, lesbians, bisexuals, gays, others, need to protect themselves/ourselves, plus laws against such murderers need to ne increased and enforced, and that to my experience is too rare (as you probably heard of my cases, including my own life which I had to protect myself and others too often!!).


To me, your question are connected to this thread. But no one wants to talk about that scene, to my experience, why? I have been told not to even write the word murderers on Bettermost; strange isn't it? - May I use therefore use the word thugs to use Bush's word? And therefore lessen the scene?-As if it's Ok to murder an innocent person (gay especially and others)? To me, a murderer is a murderer; there is a strong diffrence between a murderer and a killer!! ??

May I ask you and  to all: why do we seem to accept a murderer more than a gay man?? That seems so to me.

I still think that Jack was murdered!

Anyway, much can be said still, and I await your comment(s) if you like and that from others too,
keep care,
hugs!!  May we always see what Heath and Jake present real as Ennis and Jack so we can be safe always and love another in the whole World - as we are all humble with their roles and acting, in order to find ways to help each other!!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #241 on: January 30, 2008, 12:41:41 am »

Jake must have wanted it to be real for Jack!! ??


I think Jake most definitely wanted to portray this violent scene with a sense of the realism of the violence inherent in this scenario.  But, on the other hand... it's a surreal scene...  it's only what Ennis thinks (regardless of what we the viewers think).  I'm not sure that we can know whether or not Jake "wanted" this murder scenario to be the correct scenario explaining Jack's death.  It's very significant to me that the filmmakers did not film a similar visualization of the accident scenario.  It seems that the accident explanation might carry more weight for the viewers of the film if there was an equivalent image. 

In some ways it comes down to a question of whether a visual depiction (murder scenario) or a verbal description (accident scenario) carries more weight.

I'd be curious to hear more opinions specifically on the question of whether we believe Jack silently mouths the word "Ennis" in this difficult scene.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #242 on: January 30, 2008, 01:08:00 am »
Yes, I'm quoting myself here.  ;D

Why? Something occurred to me last night in the shower--where I do my best thinking.  ;D

It occurred to me that this "people will talk" idea might also be used to argue against the the idea that Lureen was already pregnant with someone else's child when she met Jack.  Someone posted, above, somewhere, that for the "eight months old" line to work when Ennis and Jack were reunited in September 1967, Lureen would have had to have been about three months along when she met Jack.

Well, if she were that far along, wouldn't she have been "showing" in July 1966? Lureen clearly wasn't. But here's my point. Even if they don't drink coffee  ;D surely Texans can count to nine. Jack and Lureen and Mr. and Mrs. Newsome don't exist in a vacuum. When the baby was born, the whole town would have know that it couldn't possibly be Jack's. Think of the scandal:o

yes, the towns folk in Childress certainly could count the months of Lureens pregnancy, but with her married to Jack the old "denial / hypocrisy" routine would swing in. If she were either unmarried and pregnant or she disappeared for a while to have an abortion that in a small town everyone would find out about, she and her family would be harshly condemned. ain't fair, but that is the way it was and to a degree still is in many locales.

injest

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #243 on: January 30, 2008, 01:13:45 am »
yes, small towns will forgive SOME transgressions. I touched on this on another forum once. If you are popular or well known in the area, your sins are more likely to be overlooked...especially if it is seen you are trying to 'do the right thing'.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #244 on: January 30, 2008, 01:15:38 am »
yes, the towns folk in Childress certainly could count the months of Lureens pregnancy, but with her married to Jack the old "denial / hypocrisy" routine would swing in. If she were either unmarried and pregnant or she disappeared for a while to have an abortion that in a small town everyone would find out about, she and her family would be harshly condemned. ain't fair, but that is the way it was and to a degree still is in many locales.



There's already a whole thread dedicated to the topic of speculation about Lureen's pregnancy.

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,16269.0.html


Can I suggest that we try to steer this thread back in the direction of the original question?  If for no other reason than the sake of organization (and to help folks locate a specific topic when they go looking for a thread based on it's title or original premise).


thanks Friends






the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #245 on: July 04, 2008, 04:44:55 pm »
On the topic of the ambiguity of Jack's death... I thought I'd bring this quotation over here from the recently posted interview with Pierre Tremblay.  His comments are very helpful here I think... they only really re-confirm the importance of the ambiguity, but are really fascinating.  He's talking about the reason the mechanics scene was deliberately cut from the film.

Quote
The [deleted] Sneering Mechanics scene?

We shot that very quickly, but it did not make it into the film, which I thought was an interesting choice. It leaves Jack’s demise open to question. You are not sure if you see Ennis’ fears or what actually happened.

I guarantee you that Lee did that expressly, the superb filmmaker that he is, so that there would be questioning. If he had included this scene, you would have known immediately what happened, and why, but because he didn’t, you are not sure if Lureen is telling the real story. You’re left to wonder about the truth behind Jack’s death.

It was a way of making it less explicit, and leaving the story much more open to interpretation. I’m sure that was a big debate, a huge choice. It was a tiny thing, but a very important piece of the picture that he purposely left out.




The full interview can be found here:
http://www.findingbrokeback.com/Interviews/Tremblay2/Tremblay1.html

And, of course the thread discussing this interview can be found over in the Chez Tremblay forum here:
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,21675.0.html



the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #246 on: July 04, 2008, 09:43:29 pm »
Merci atz !


He says that: you would have known what happened !

So Jack was murdered ? Or are those mechanics for another murder that had happened ?


Au revoir,
hugs!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #247 on: July 04, 2008, 10:09:12 pm »

He's saying that Ang Lee deliberately left the scene with the mechanics out of the film so that the audience would never really know how Jack died based on the film as a finished product.  I think it's very important that we never really know how Jack dies.  And, the idea that what we see of Jack's "murder" in the finshed film is only Ennis's imagination is really fascinating to me.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #248 on: July 04, 2008, 10:11:02 pm »
He is sure about that ! ??

The mechanics might have been for the other murdered gay man ?

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?
« Reply #249 on: November 23, 2008, 11:54:44 am »
Of course, Jack in the Brokeback Mountain movie was murdered because he was a gay man, and so easy for con artists to murder him since gays are friendly !