TOTW 01/08: Do you think Jack was murdered or was it an accident?

[belbbmfan]

Chrissi,
I couldn't get that line you quoted from the short story out of my head. So I went back to the story and this line almost immediately follows 'Ennis wanted to curse her for letting Jack die on the dirt road.' Ennis feels guilty for not being there to save Jack and feels that if he couldn't be there, at least Lureen should have been. More projection from Ennis as Paul pointed out.

[Penthesilea]

Chrissi,
I couldn't get that line you quoted from the short story out of my head. So I went back to the story and this line almost immediately follows 'Ennis wanted to curse her for letting Jack die on the dirt road.' Ennis feels guilty for not being there to save Jack and feels that if he couldn't be there, at least Lureen should have been. More projection from Ennis as Paul pointed out.

Hi Fabienne,

I just went back to edit my post to add the exact same thing. The quote about Lureen letting Jack die and the fact that this is another projection by Ennis. But then I saw you post in the preview. Great minds think alike 

[belbbmfan]

Hi Fabienne,

I just went back to edit my post to add the exact same thing. The quote about Lureen letting Jack die and the fact that this is another projection by Ennis. But then I saw you post in the preview. Great minds think alike 

Agreed!   

And Ennis's guilt shows us that he believed he could have saved Jack. 

[Kerry]

That phone scene is just so brilliant.  I still think Lureen really treats Ennis very well on the phone. I think it's a huge kindness on her part to prod Ennis to go visit Jack's parents, etc. 

This is such a fascinating thread and even more so for me to read how different scenes are interpreted entirely differently by different people.

I have now seen BbM on more occasions than I care to count and on every one of those occasions I thought Lureen was cold, aloof and patronising to Ennis on the phone. And I won't even mention the way she summarily hung-up the phone on Ennis' ear, without so much as a civil "Good-bye."

IMHO Lureen sometimes even seemed to almost be sneering. "We put a stone up," she says, as her top lip curls up.

Just my view, for what it's worth. In the novella, Ms Proulx says, "No doubt about it, she was polite but the little voice was cold as snow."

I'm gaining so many fascinating insights here. 

[Sandy]

Ennis must have felt responsible for it.

I agree.  I think that this is expressed during his conversation with John Twist.  He says, "I can't begin to tell you how bad I feel".  Is this him expressing his guilt or his grief?  I think guilt.

My favorite thing about Ennis's big threat about Mexico in that fight is how totally and completely un-intimidated Jack is by Ennis's bluster.  Jack just pushes right back with his own issues and complaints.  I love that.

Me too!  There have been posts elsewhere about the fact that they only spent time together sporadically, it was not a relationship where they learnt about each other 'warts and all' by living together.  Ennis is a tough cookie and the fact that Jack wasn't scared for his safety shows the strength of their relationship. 

As Lureen is talking to Ennis on the phone, she seems to be looking at someone, someone in the room with her that we don't see.

I had never even thought about that, but watching the film certainly doesn't rule it out-thank you for bringing it to my attention!  I've always been fascinated by the noise she made in the back of her throat, as if she is stopping herself from saying what she really thinks.  To me, she is being cold, and wants to yell at Ennis, but is holding back either out of respect or Jack or simply that she could her the despair in Ennis and didn't want to hurt him further.  But then, maybe she wants to say more but can't because of the other person in the room...

[delalluvia]

Not one person in this thread has said that Ennis would have been able to save Jack. Some (I 'm among them) said he might have been able to save him. Big difference.

You and I may be able to weigh the chances logically: even people living a sweet life together aren't together for every minute of the day; in the accident case Jack may have died from his severe injuries even if someone had turned him around; in the murder case they may both have been murdered; and so on. We can even get downright philosophically about the question and ask if Jack's time was simply up, no matter how the circumstances were.

We can argue about logical versimilitudes (which chances were higher?) as much as we want, it doesn't matter to Ennis. Because for Ennis, it boils down to "blood choking down Jack's throat and nobody there to turn him over."
If Ennis had said yes to the sweet life, he may have been able to save Jack, and that chance is enough to feel not only regret, but also guilt (btw a common phenomenon among survivors).

Chrissi,

I think the situation is too abstract as you say.  It's a woulda coulda mighta thing.  If they did have the 'sweet life' together, whether Ennis was there to turn him over or not is a situation where the variables would have to be considered.  You would have to consider such things as 'Well, why was Jack on that back road alone?  Was this part of his travels as a salesman?'  If he's with Ennis in their cow and calf operation, he's no longer trolling for men or traveling, so some grease monkey strangers in a different town would have no reason to beat him in the first place.  Unless of course, the town they live close to suspects them, then we're back to the Earl and Rich situation.    Jack goes off to buy feed and some thugs catch him alone.  You can bleed to death/drown in your own blood in a few minutes.  Ennis is back on the ranch with the cows.  How long would he wait for Jack to come back from shopping or whatnot before he went to find him?  Probably a lot longer than a few minutes, probably longer than that to actually find him, etc.  Ennis thoughts were very abstract about Jack's death.  He was thinking of someone dying alone, with no one to turn him over.  That's pretty much the wistful wishful thinking of someone, wishing someone else were still alive, not a scenario that might have been actually real.

Kinda like when people blurt out "If I was there I could have done something [to save a life]!" and someone else responds, "No, there was nothing you could have done."
 
[shrug]

[southendmd]

I think Anne Hathaway's performance in the phone scene is nothing short of brilliant.

Despite having to wear all those ridiculous wigs, she portrays Lureen as hardened over time.  There's the initial exasperation on answering the phone (before she even knows who it is), as if to say, "oh, not another one".  We can imagine she's received many, many calls asking for information. 

Thus, her very rehearsed explanation (whether or not it's true; it's the "family" or "public" version).

I love the squeak or break in her voice when Ennis corrects her about what Brokeback Mountain was.  It's a transformation:  I think this is when she realizes who Ennis really is ; simultaneously, she is realizing who she isn't  and what she has lost or even never had with Jack.

Another squeak of recognition when Ennis says "we was good friends" seals it. 

I forgive Lureen for her coldness.  To paraphrase Annie, she learned some hard lessons about life by being with Jack.  Plus, she's suddenly a widow and can't be much more than 39 herself.  Now, whatever suspicions she may have had about Jack are confirmed, so she's discovering someone else was Jack's priority. 

[serious crayons]

Thus, her very rehearsed explanation (whether or not it's true; it's the "family" or "public" version).

I love the squeak or break in her voice when Ennis corrects her about what Brokeback Mountain was.  It's a transformation:  I think this is when she realizes who Ennis really is ; simultaneously, she is realizing who she isn't  and what she has lost or even never had with Jack.

Well said, Paul. I agree totally.

Ennis thoughts were very abstract about Jack's death.  He was thinking of someone dying alone, with no one to turn him over.  That's pretty much the wistful wishful thinking of someone, wishing someone else were still alive, not a scenario that might have been actually real.

I agree, Ennis is not thinking logically at this point. I'd go a step further and say he's also thinking in larger, vaguer terms, probably somewhat subconsciously, about Jack being alone, not only at the moment of his death, but in all the years leading up to it. "No one there to turn him over" suggests something about Jack having died without being near the person he loved and who loved him most. No one was there = Ennis was not there. To turn him over = to love him and be with him.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I forgive Lureen for her coldness.  To paraphrase Annie, she learned some hard lessons about life by being with Jack.  Plus, she's suddenly a widow and can't be much more than 39 herself.  Now, whatever suspicions she may have had about Jack are confirmed, so she's discovering someone else was Jack's priority. 

Lureen is in an awkward position, especially if Jack was murdered. Childress isn't that big of a place. She still has to hold up her head and raise her child. If her husband was murdered for being queer, there must have been rumors about his sexuality before the murder, and some people--the murderers--will know the real story, regardless of what is put out for "public consumption," and word of the truth is bound to get out eventually.

Even if Jack died in an accident, we have the "pissant" sequence to tell us that Jack wasn't respected by the local bigwigs--and who knows what rumors may have circulated about him?

[ennisjack]

  Even though L.D. died before Jack, I feel that, if Jack was murdered, L.D. had something to do with it. Or else Randall got ticked off when Jack broke it off with him. Other than that, I don't believe that he actually died. There was no actual concrete proof in the form of a body. I mean, anyone can get ashes anywhere and you can always put up a headstone to throw off suspicion and all, but without a body there can be no murder.

  Plus, queer or not, even in that day and age gays were making headway in their fight for their rights and someone would have investigated it. I'm pretty sure that not everyone in the Sheriff's Dept. were bigots and hatemongers. Some of them, sure but not everyone. Plus, Jack also had quite a few friends that would have wondered what really happened.

  Not trying to start a debate here. It's just my opinion. Besides, it really gives most of us impetus for writing some wonderful stories. 

EnnisJack