Author Topic: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?  (Read 46969 times)

Offline Penthesilea

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TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« on: January 14, 2008, 06:38:07 am »
Mornin, BetterMost residents!  :D


First, I wanted to thank participants of last week's TOTW discussion and everyone who voted in the related poll. We got a total number of 50 voters, that's a lot!


This week we're talking about Lureen:

Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?


Was a possible pregnancy the reason for her hurry? What clues can we get out of the timeline of the movie? Although the story doesn't give enough information to answer the question, maybe there's still a hint to be found in it?






Offline tampatalon

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2008, 07:10:59 am »
Chrissi, This may really be off the wall and I thought about this since Angst
put in subtle things in the movie. Ever heard of the "mask of pregnancy" ?
Do due hormones a faint loner-ranger type mask appears very faintly around
the eyes sometimes. It would be interesting to study the early shots of Lureen to see
if this was done in the movie as a hint she was pregnant. I know this is pretty
wild and prolly not the case.

TampaTalon^">
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Offline Penthesilea

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2008, 08:03:57 am »
Chrissi, This may really be off the wall and I thought about this since Angst
put in subtle things in the movie. Ever heard of the "mask of pregnancy" ?
Do due hormones a faint loner-ranger type mask appears very faintly around
the eyes sometimes. It would be interesting to study the early shots of Lureen to see
if this was done in the movie as a hint she was pregnant. I know this is pretty
wild and prolly not the case.

TampaTalon^">

Hey Steve,
I've learned too much in those past two years to judge such things as off the wall without giving it at least some thoughts.
I've looked up 'mask of pregnancy': it appears in the second or third trimester of a pregnancy, and almost never before the fifth month.
So even if Lureen were pregnant by the time she met Jack, she would not have had a mask of pregnancy. Therefore I think Ang Lee wouldn't have included it.

But it is a good thought and it might be interesting to look at some close-ups of Lureen anyway. Maybe someone will post some or I will do so in the next days.

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2008, 12:08:19 pm »
Quote
It would be interesting to study the early shots of Lureen to see
if this was done in the movie as a hint she was pregnant.

Here are the close-ups of Lureen. No mask of pregnancy anywhere to be seen.
I put up the brightness in the pics, because they were very dark. But I didn't mess otherwise with them (no re-doing of her make-up  ;)).







 
All pics from stripedwall.com


Looking at the pics, my impression is that she's genuinely fascinated/interested in him. Especially when they dance, she seems to really adore him. Somehow I don't think she delibarately hoodwinked him.

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2008, 12:27:51 pm »
What does speak for an already existing pregnancy though is the timeline of the movie.

The scene before Jack and Lureen meet is the fireworks scene; Independence Day 1966. The scenes are chronological, so J and L met after this date.

Even if they had met directly the day after (July, 5th, 1966), and even if Bobby had been conceived the same night, Bobby could not have been 8 months old in September 1967.

July 1966 + 9 months pregnancy = April 1967

April 1967 + 8 months old = December 1967.


In September 1967 Bobby could have been four or five months old, maximum.

Either Jack is not Bobby's father or Ang Lee made a mistake with the timeline, or he deliberately took artistic licence.

I personally am undecided towards the opening question, but tend to think Lureen was not pregnant. My personal guess is that Bobby was conceived the very first night in Lureens car and Jack and Lureen had to marry.

moremojo

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2008, 12:42:33 pm »
Our fellow member brokeplex provides compelling evidence that corroborates what Chrissi has posted:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,15379.msg311426.html#msg311426

I do share Chrissi's doubts as to whether the timeline discrepancies were intentional and subtly reflected Jack's lack of paternity or whether they were an oversight. For the longest, I never questioned Jack being Bobby's father, but the very real possibility that he wasn't cannot now be ignored.

So, in answer to the question, I must submit...maybe. This could help to explain the perception that some have voiced that the child cast as Bobby in the Thanksgiving scene does not resemble Jake's Jack very strongly.

Offline LauraGigs

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2008, 02:22:59 pm »
Well, young Ennis has ruler-straight hair, as opposed to grownup Ennis' curls. And the child cast as Alma Jr. (who says "bring fish home daddy, big ones" and "I need crayons") doesn't resemble the other Alma Jr. actresses — in fact, none of their eye colors match.  So personally, I wouldn't take Bobby Jr's casting into much account.

We're talking about the backstory of a secondary character; it doesn't make sense from a story-structure angle for there to be an issue here.

I agree that Lureen was smitten with Jack. (Hathaway's performance in the final telephone scene implies possible deception; if Lureen were 'hoodwinking' Jack in the beginning, the acting performance would imply that deception too. But it doesn't.)

I think the simplest solution is the best: "eight months old" just should have been "four months old".

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2008, 03:17:50 pm »
Well, young Ennis has ruler-straight hair, as opposed to grownup Ennis' curls. And the child cast as Alma Jr. (who says "bring fish home daddy, big ones" and "I need crayons") doesn't resemble the other Alma Jr. actresses — in fact, none of their eye colors match.  So personally, I wouldn't take Bobby Jr's casting into much account.

We're talking about the backstory of a secondary character; it doesn't make sense from a story-structure angle for there to be an issue here.

I agree with all of this. I wouldn't put much weight on the appearance of the actors. Even in real life, children often look nothing like their biological parents. And there's no point in their being an elaborate backstory to a character that isn't explored further in the film.

And yet, I have seen credible arguments, in addition to the timeline, that Lureen was already pregnant. Let's see if I can remember some of them:

-- Lureen is very eager to get together with Jack in the bar, and even more eager to have sex with him on their first "date." She IS in a hurry! For good reason.

-- L.D. Newsome gives Jack the brushoff immediately after the baby is born and then (supposedly) would even pay him to get lost, even though being dumped like that would have hurt his daughter and her reputation. But Jack's done his job, saving Lureen's reputation from even worse damage. And remember in those pre-Roe v. Wade days how disastrous and out-of-wedlock birth could be.

-- "Isn't he the spittin image of his grandpa?" repeated twice for emphasis. A relieved acknowledgment -- or perhaps a cautionary reminder to all listening -- that the baby does NOT resemble anyone outside the family.

-- Jack is far less concerned than Ennis about the prospect of readily ditching his child in favor of the sweet life, even though it seems possible that such a move would mean never seeing the boy again.

-- Thanksgiving scene: "This is MY house and this is MY child." Jack reasserts his paternity. L.D. backs down quickly --  because they've all agreed to uphold, tacitly or openly, the story that Jack IS the father.

Now, I realize all of these have other perfectly reasonable explanations. Still ...










Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2008, 03:54:16 pm »
I'd be in a hurry, too, if I was in the back seat of a car with Jake Gyllenhaal. I wouldn't want to give him time to change his mind!  :laugh:

No, I don't believe Lureen was pregnant when she met Jack--though she may well have conceived in the back seat of that car.

That rodeo arena sign with a date on it goes by so quickly that I have yet actually to see it when I'm watching the film. Without checking, I won't swear to it, but I think Jack's "eight months old" line is taken from Annie Proulx's text (I admire McMurtry and Ossana for using as much of AP's dialogue as they did)--and the story gives no indication when Jack and Lureen met.

I guess it seems a stretch, but I think this is just a case where no one checked the continuity.
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Offline tampatalon

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2008, 05:19:47 pm »
But it is a good thought and it might be interesting to look at some close-ups of Lureen anyway. Maybe someone will post some or I will do so in the next days.

Chrissi, Its was just a quick thought on my part but I appreciate the response
and the beautiful shots of Anne Hathaway. They will make a great addition to
my saved movie photos!

Thank you so very much  :)

Steve
"Lean on me, Let our hearts beat in time, Feel strength from the hands that have held you so long. Who cares where we go on this rutted old road, In a world that may say that we're wrong."--EmmyLou Harris

Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2008, 05:37:54 pm »
When I first read the new question for Topic of the Week.....I thought...."WTF where do they get such stupid ideas from?".....but now after reading the posts here, especially the time line, I can see why its been asked.

Regardless of all the evidence to the contrary, I dont think she was pregnant. There is no way she would have still been riding those horses in the rodeo if she was.
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Offline huntinbuddy

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2008, 05:38:38 pm »
If she wasn't pregnant, she certainly would have been after riding Jake bronc in the back of daddy's T-bird that night after the rodeo.  That is, assuming she was ovulating, and his gun went off!

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2008, 05:40:15 pm »
One would think so!!

Look at the son!!

Strange in that BM movie!

Hugs!!

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2008, 05:54:50 pm »
I question strongly this: Thanksgiving scene: "This is MY house and this is MY child." Jack reasserts his paternity. L.D. backs down quickly --  because they've all agreed to uphold, tacitly or openly, the story that Jack IS the father.



...

Because Laureen did not likely tell Jack the player or lover, or later on metion to her husband, still Jack, that this child was not his (from his boys driving for fun, may I say)!! ??

Hugs!!

moremojo

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2008, 06:10:24 pm »
Because Laureen did not likely tell Jack the player or lover, or later on metion to her husband, still Jack, that this child was not his (from his boys driving for fun, may I say)!! ??
This is a further possibility that Jack may not have been the father while truly believing that he was. An intentional discrepancy with the timeline would complicate this approach, assuming that Jack was as cognizant as anyone of the normal nine-months gestation period.

Certainly, Jack was Bobby's legal father, and bequeathed the Twist name to him. So from this standpoint, Jack could be just as adamant as any biological or adoptive parent would have been in asserting his childrearing rights to L.D.

Offline huntinbuddy

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2008, 06:37:13 pm »
Or here is a possibility, Ennis has just damn near given Jack an orgasm at the foot of the stairs, perhaps his mind was just a bit cloudy when Ennis introduces him to Alma, and he inadvertently said his son was eight months old, when if fact he was less than 8 months old.

Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2008, 06:44:20 pm »
Or here is a possibility, Ennis has just damn near given Jack an orgasm at the foot of the stairs, perhaps his mind was just a bit cloudy when Ennis introduces him to Alma, and he inadvertently said his son was eight months old, when if fact he was less than 8 months old.

Good point...lol......and lets face it, after that godam reunion kiss, who gave a flying f*** how old his kid was..........
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Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2008, 07:18:45 pm »
Thanks moremojo, thanks huntingbuddy, thanks Katie77!!!

Well said moremojo!!

Did you and others ever think that Lureen's child is not the same at all as Jack?? In the BM movie, that is.

Hugs!!!

Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2008, 07:27:51 pm »
Did you and others ever think that Lureen's child is not the same at all as Jack?? In the BM movie, that is.



oh for gods sake!!!!!.....it was a movie.......with actors....... ::) ::) ::) ::)

Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline huntinbuddy

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2008, 07:34:04 pm »
I'll probably get off topic here, but I saw Bobby as a child that was spoiled from day one by Grandpa and Grandma Newsom.  He probably had any toys and such he wanted with LD's money, and I always assumed Bobby was their first and ONLY grandchild.  I think the Thanksgiving scene at the Twist home, was to show the viewers just how pissed Jack had become with the whole situation of his father-in-law spoiling the child.  Jack took control of the situation and let LD have it that day.  The comment  LD made that "boys should watch football" was particularly irritating to Jack.  I'm not sure if he said that to question Jack's masculinity, or to just be an asshole and try to run the family Thanksgiving show; but Jack told him how it was, and I was proud of how he did it.

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2008, 07:35:44 pm »
Thanks Katie!
So it was a movie! So what? You and I and others talk about it, right??

The casting was surely great!! Even for that child?? Do you ever think or search that??

Many questions still need to be raised and possibly solved about Lureen... including her child!!

Hugs!!

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2008, 07:39:59 pm »
Thanks huntinbuddy!

Could it be that Lureen's mother knew that her daughter was pregnant before her time... if I may use that expression; surely??


Plus, her mother knew that Lureen was fooling around before Lureen ever met Jack??
What do you and others think?

Hugs!!

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2008, 07:56:26 pm »
I'll probably get off topic here, but I saw Bobby as a child that was spoiled from day one by Grandpa and Grandma Newsom.  He probably had any toys and such he wanted with LD's money, and I always assumed Bobby was their first and ONLY grandchild.  I think the Thanksgiving scene at the Twist home, was to show the viewers just how pissed Jack had become with the whole situation of his father-in-law spoiling the child.  Jack took control of the situation and let LD have it that day.  The comment  LD made that "boys should watch football" was particularly irritating to Jack.  I'm not sure if he said that to question Jack's masculinity, or to just be an asshole and try to run the family Thanksgiving show; but Jack told him how it was, and I was proud of how he did it.

I wouldn't at all be surprised if you were right about Bobby being spoiled by his grandparents.

And I've always wondered, too--where the heck did they get that name, Bobby (Robert?)? His father's name is Jack (John), and one grandfather is John (Twist) and the other is L.D., whatever those initials stand for. So where the heck did Bobby come from?  :laugh:
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Offline huntinbuddy

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2008, 08:01:52 pm »

Could it be that Lureen's mother knew that her daughter was pregnant before her time... if I may use that expression; surely??

Plus, her mother knew that Lureen was fooling around before Lureen ever met Jack??
It has always seemed to me that mothers and daughters have closer bonds than fathers and sons.  Even in early 60's Texas, if Lureen had decided to be sexually active, nothing is going to stop that hormonal locomotive.  There was no doubt in my mind when she had Jack in the car, she had already been there and done that!  No gal whips off her top like that if everything is still intact down below, if you know what I mean.  Now whether Lureen discussed her sex life with mom or not is questionable.  I don't believe oral contraceptives came into existence until the early 70's?  is that correct?  So Mom might have had "the talk" with her, but considering the time period, and if she grew up on a ranch or farm, I highly doubt it.  Sex was just not discussed.  The only thing we know for sure is she has to have the car home by midnight!

Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2008, 08:08:02 pm »
I wouldn't at all be surprised if you were right about Bobby being spoiled by his grandparents.

And I've always wondered, too--where the heck did they get that name, Bobby (Robert?)? His father's name is Jack (John), and one grandfather is John (Twist) and the other is L.D., whatever those initials stand for. So where the heck did Bobby come from?  :laugh:

No doubt L.D. suggested it....maybe it was his father's name.
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Offline "Joseph Golden"

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2008, 09:38:24 pm »
No, i dont think she was, i think this is a bit of a stretch....

Laureen was just interested in Jack, and Jack didnt under stand why, that's what intrigued Jack about Laureen so much. When they first met it was a example of what Laureen's characters about.

Laureen is in a rush because her dad wants her back by 12. So she confronts Jack, very uncommon in those days. She tells him 'What are you waiting for cowboy, a mating call"
He is waiting for a mating call, but not from her. When he was on the  mountain he gave Ennis a mating call or dance. So his waiting there for a mating call from some one like the Rodeo Clown. But its Laureen who gives him just that. She dances with him. She doing her mating dance to get what she wants, which she is use to getting. Jack never gets what he wants....

Laureen is more like her father than she'll like to amit. She is a business women and that's what she does best, Laureen being in a rush with Jack is showing her personality. Shes a women who gets what she wants, she has a deadline and she makes it. That she doesnt really care for her father. But she obays his rules....

Laureen being pregnant is a stretch, a bit of a one at that. I dont think it deserves "Topic of the week"

How do we really know Laureen and Jack were together for a year or so before she feel pregnant?
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moremojo

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2008, 09:47:32 pm »
How do we really know Laureen and Jack were together for a year or so before she feel pregnant?
The timeline, as it can be gleaned from the film and the published screenplay, is the basis for knowing that Jack and Lureen could not have been together that long before her pregnancy (and thus opens speculation to whether she was pregnant at the time of their first meeting). We know that Jack and Lureen met no earlier than the summer of 1966, and by September 1967, when Jack is reunited with Ennis, they have married and putatively produced a child together that Jack claims is "eight months old".

Offline LauraGigs

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2008, 10:08:27 pm »
Well, at the end of the film Alma Jr. says, "Wedding'll be June 5th..."   June 5th of that year was a Tuesday.

Point is, there are other details and timelines in the film that aren't precisely correct.  Nit-picking over an incorrect date . . . it's just a red herring IMO.

moremojo

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2008, 10:46:22 pm »
I agree, Laura, that many of us probably give too much credence to little details that were probably not meant to convey too much meaning on the part of the filmmakers. It can still make for fun speculation, though.

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2008, 10:48:19 pm »
Well, at the end of the film Alma Jr. says, "Wedding'll be June 5th..."   June 5th of that year was a Tuesday.

Point is, there are other details and timelines in the film that aren't precisely correct.  Nit-picking over an incorrect date . . . it's just a red herring IMO.

And expensive to reshoot something if someone did notice the discrepancy. ...
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Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2008, 11:31:56 pm »
Thanks huntingbuddy and others!!

You say huntingbuddy: [Now whether Lureen discussed her sex life with mom or not is questionable.  I don't believe oral contraceptives came into existence until the early 70's?  is that correct?  So Mom might have had "the talk" with her, but considering the time period, and if she grew up on a ranch or farm, I highly doubt it.  Sex was just not discussed.  The only thing we know for sure is she has to have the car home by midnight!/i]
...

Huntingbuddy and to all, I am NOT saying that.

Rather, I would think that Lureen's mother knew about her daughter being pregnant by ANOTHER man way before Laureen saw Jack!! Lureen's mother had to see the physical changes changing in Lureen's body!!

Too: It could very well be that Lureen never said anything about her pregnancy with another man before Jack to her mother, but Lureen knew that she was indeed pregnant and had to get quickly a husband! Right? Or maybe?

Awaiting your news and that from all too,

hugs!!

Offline chowhound

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2008, 02:25:29 pm »
I wrote to Larry McMurtry a couple of months back to ask him about this but so far there's been no reply. If I do get one from him, I'll certainly let people know.

I,like Panthesilea, favour the story line of Jack getting Lureen pregnant on their first encounter. This forces marriage upon them - abortion, presumably, not being an option - and would explain Lureen's father's dislike for Jack and his readiness to get rid of him once the baby has been born. Surprising as it may be in a movie where so much attention has been given to detail, I think the suggested timeline which makes Lureen pregnant before she meets Jack is simply a "goof".

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2008, 03:02:07 pm »
I,like Panthesilea, favour the story line of Jack getting Lureen pregnant on their first encounter. This forces marriage upon them - abortion, presumably, not being an option - and would explain Lureen's father's dislike for Jack and his readiness to get rid of him once the baby has been born. Surprising as it may be in a movie where so much attention has been given to detail, I think the suggested timeline which makes Lureen pregnant before she meets Jack is simply a "goof".

This puts my interpretation of the marriage and pregnancy in a nutshell.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2008, 07:41:10 pm »
Jeff, may I disagree?? !!

To me, Lureen was pregnant BEFORE she met Jack!! Proofs seems to be there... many!!

What do you, and you all think??

Hugs!!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2008, 11:23:14 pm »

That rodeo arena sign with a date on it goes by so quickly that I have yet actually to see it when I'm watching the film. Without checking, I won't swear to it, but I think Jack's "eight months old" line is taken from Annie Proulx's text (I admire McMurtry and Ossana for using as much of AP's dialogue as they did)--and the story gives no indication when Jack and Lureen met.

Hi Jeff!

In the Childress Co. rodeo scene, slow your DVD playback and freeze while Jack is still bucking the bull. You will see the dates listed in Aug 1966 on the signs above the announcers booth.

In the post card scene freeze while Ennis is holding the card, and you will see the post mark as Sept 1967

Jack when meeting Alma remarks that his boy is 8 months old, do the math.

Lureen was pregnant when she was 'in a hurry" with Jack behind the barn in the T-Bird.

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #35 on: January 15, 2008, 11:33:06 pm »
Thanks brokeplex, thanks to all too!

Brokeplex, you say:
Lureen was pregnant when she was 'in a hurry" with Jack behind the barn in the T-Bird.
 
 
 

...

Brokeplex and all too: I felt that too, in the movie that Lureen was pregnant BEFORE she met Jack!! But who is possibly the father of that child? And may we all guess much more than that said so far?

Hugs!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #36 on: January 15, 2008, 11:40:22 pm »
Thanks brokeplex, thanks to all too!

Brokeplex, you say:
Lureen was pregnant when she was 'in a hurry" with Jack behind the barn in the T-Bird.
 
 
 

...

Brokeplex and all too: I felt that too, in the movie that Lureen was pregnant BEFORE she met Jack!! But who is possibly the father of that child? And may we all guess much more than that said so far?

Hugs!

I'm pretty sure we will never know for sure. But, Jack not being the father of his grandchild does explain some of L.D.'s attitudes toward Jack, and also why L.D. would have been willing to pay Jack money to "get lost".

Jack should have taken L.D. up on his offer and moved back up to WY, put a down payment on a little ranch, and started his own cow and calf operation. At least he would have been nearer to the love of his life, Ennis.

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #37 on: January 15, 2008, 11:50:59 pm »
Thanks brokeplex!

You say: I'm pretty sure we will never know for sure. But, Jack not being the father of his grandchild does explain some of L.D.'s attitudes toward Jack, and also why L.D. would have been willing to pay Jack money to "get lost".


...

Brokeplex and others, may I reply that Lureen could maybe be described as a sex kitten, like in those days the French actrice I think was called that?? The Italian one too?? Anyway, she had to hide her pregnantcy from her father?? Any clues to that??

Hugs!!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #38 on: January 15, 2008, 11:56:36 pm »
do you mean Brigitte Bardeau?

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2008, 12:04:34 am »
Yes, Brigitte, I think is lesbian?

Do you think Lureen was lesbian?
Would that make her quickly pregnant somehow (no office ladies nor gentlemen!!)
May I dare ask you and all too?

Hugs!!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2008, 12:09:25 am »
no, I see no indication that Lureen was a Lesbian.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2008, 01:01:06 am »
Do you think Lureen was lesbian?
Would that make her quickly pregnant somehow (no office ladies nor gentlemen!!)
May I dare ask you and all too?

Sorry, Artiste, but even speculating that Lureen might have already been pregnant is about as far outside what the movie actually shows us as I would care to go. Even that's a stretch, for me.

But if she WERE a lesbian, wouldn't that make her LESS likely to get pregnant?

 ???


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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2008, 01:52:57 am »
Thanks ineedcrayons!!

You say about Lureen: Sorry, Artiste, but even speculating that Lureen might have already been pregnant is about as far outside what the movie actually shows us as I would care to go. Even that's a stretch, for me.

But if she WERE a lesbian, wouldn't that make her LESS likely to get pregnant?


............

Ineedcrayons and to all others:
May I say that Lureen already being pregnant (as seen in the BM movie) is NOT a stretch to me, quite the opposite!! Why was that person cast as her boy?? May we find about that??

Regarding if Lureen was a lesbian, there is a possibility there... and why? - because she was pressured by her father-, plus she was so very quick in actions like she was a butch ( if I may use that term that just comes to my mind now) as in some lesbians are such in physical agressiveness!!

Here is a true story that may help. There is a gay man here that lost his wife in a way... they were married legally as man and wife. He told me that he was surprised when his wife went to live with another female (a lesbian); he did not know that his wife was lesbian. He is in the film with his wife and her lover, which was shown on TV, about their lives!! He is also a gay man, but had not told her that... I seem to remember, during their marriage!! They did have kids and lived a long time together as man and wife and were happily so... he told me. Can this be an example for you, as possibly Lureen is a lesbian?

Lesbians, some want children; some gay men want children too!!
Awaiting your news and from all too,

hugs!!

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2008, 10:38:50 am »
Regarding if Lureen was a lesbian, there is a possibility there... and why? - because she was pressured by her father-, plus she was so very quick in actions like she was a butch ( if I may use that term that just comes to my mind now) as in some lesbians are such in physical agressiveness!!

I don't think being quick in one's actions is very sound evidence of being a lesbian.

Quote
Here is a true story that may help. There is a gay man here that lost his wife in a way... they were married legally as man and wife. He told me that he was surprised when his wife went to live with another female (a lesbian); he did not know that his wife was lesbian....Can this be an example for you, as possibly Lureen is a lesbian?

No, because Lureen didn't go to live with another female.

Quote
Lesbians, some want children; some gay men want children too!!

Sure. But if Lureen was a lesbian, and therefore with women before she met Jack, she wouldn't have already been pregnant, as you state. Jack would be the one who got her pregnant.


Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2008, 11:12:49 am »

        Artiste......I am sorry but I think you are now beyond all decency here by accusing Lureen of anything.. She was obviously
a victim of the situation herself.. now you are trying again to find some way of blaming the victims for their own pain.
You seem intent on blaming all the characters except for the two men.  Even Pa Twist in your way of thinking is different than
that which the story shows.  i think you are being unfair to the women. who have done nothing to bring their pain upon themself.
In contrast they are being victimized yet again.  You are basing these suppositions upon non existant proof as regards the movie, or
the book.  Then you have said that you have heard of a personal situation having happened, and use that as a possibility.
        Just because some people have done anything, doesnt mean that it has anything to do with the story...
        It almost smacks of prejudice on your part...Everything that happens is not a deliberate attempt to hurt gay men, or women..
And you are sadly mistaken if you are of he opinion that lesbians are automatically more aggressive....



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Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2008, 12:37:57 pm »
Thanks ifyoucantfixit! Thanks all too!!

Wow, you sure comment much (I appreciate that) and you can be assured that I will answer you, if you like on each point your bring up.

For now, without prejudice to lesbians, you say: [And you are sadly mistaken if you are of he opinion that lesbians are automatically more aggressive..../i]
......

Ifyoucantfixit and to all others too, may I say that I fail to see how some lesbians are NOT aggressive!!?? Especially some butch types, excuse me for using that word, which is meant by some as agressively masculine. Isn't that the experiences seen by many persons, even by gays such as I am? Seen by lesbians too? And by other females (straights, bi-s and others???) ? I speak from expriences with a variety of lesbians, straights, bi-s, and others, I have known. I do not think that I am prejudice saying this about butch lesbians; if I am, then you all butch lesbians here tell me, please.

I had just realized yesterday that Lureen, to me, is somehow a butch lesbian in some ways; I was shocked to figure that out, since I thought her to be a sweet, lady-like very much, amiable, etc., in the BM movie!! Even if she is seen, had been seen by me, in the movie, as somewhat agressive sexually (ripping like her clothes instead of her man taking them off) and avancing the mating call, I considered her a lady!! Even if now a consider her butch lesbian to a degree, I still consider her to be a lady! To each his/her own way of living, I say!

Of course Lureen is pregnant way before she sees Jack, nothing wrong with that in my book; again, whatever will be will be. How old is she at that time, or at the time she meets Jack for the first time?? Tell me please!! Surely old enough to have sex, right? With or without protection, that is her choice, not mine and she is accepted by I too! She is not 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 - is 18 considered legal in your part of the country? I do not want a 13... nor 16 or 17 year old to have sex (certainly not without protection) - I guess I am old fashion?? !! Some countries have laws that allowed 13 years old female to have sex, like in some arab, african, asian... countries - even Holland wanted to lower the age to 7, I seem to recall, but the civillized world yelled - and I do not know what the minimum age is there now!! In Canada, it was 14 yesterday (two years ago...), I think I read - but that was likely raised last year... as it was an issue. Of course many americains, englishmen, frenchmen, etc. used to marry 13 or 14 years old girls - or they were too old after that!! ??-Movies tell us and history!! I figure that at least 18 or 19 or 20 or 21... should be better for sex without safety, for gays, lesbians, for straights, for females, for bi-s, for others!!
I do not think that females should be used as whores in certain countries as they are now (nor in any), and certainly not in Holland as this is there now in the red light district for tourists (still is that there?), but outlawed in the rest of that country!! I regret that some females (males too) are wholes legally in Canada, now; too many foreign criminals like from Russia steal women from theie own countries (and likely from ours too) and bring them in in our countries forcing them to be so! Sad but true. Worst is children used for such world markets - I say, as well as that!! At least, Lureen is not veiled as an muslim or such in slavery. Everyone is a slave to a certain degree, I say - even Lureen and all others in the BM movie - may I say!!-That is life! Everyone must and can free themselves - to a certain degree, I say!!

I think that you are misreading me... in some ways?? I like your frankness and please continue. Of course, not all lesbians are more agressive. Are you lesbian (may I ask)? How would you consider yourself? Tell me how you figure Lureen, please.

P.S. That remains me where I used to live in which neighbour was decent, but a foreign criminal took it over to open up crack houses, etc.,; so I saw foreign lady brought in and beaten in her backyard since she did not want to do sex with a stranger in front of her foreign husband!! Sad but true... and no one helped her, not even the pastor; I was the only one who tried to  help the neighbourhood come back to descentcy (except for some ladies who were with me, but were likely killed for trying, like I was beaten up and left for dead). Why was Lureen having sex so quick? I wonder still about my former neighbourhood and I try/tried to save my present one, and still am puzzled as to why Lureen married Jack; plus now too, why Jack married her!! Tell...me.

Hugs, please reply you and all too!!
May everyone be safe in sex in the whole world!!

Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2008, 12:53:39 pm »



            I do not see how my sexual preferrence is topical on this thread. 



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Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2008, 01:04:29 pm »
Thanks ifyoucantfixit!

You say: I do not see how my sexual preferrence is topical on this thread.   
 
 

...

Ifyoucantfixit, may I say that it is not. It may help me understand better you, if you like to reply, and certainly maybe Lureen. You do not have to anwser. May I respect you!

You want me to comment on your other points? They will be just my views, which if you note change at times being educated by you and by others. I think my perspectives on females are now more enlarged... pray so and they will be bettered still... I need your help and that of others too!!

Keep care, hugs!! May everyone be safe in the whole world and happy!!

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2008, 01:34:36 pm »
Ifyoucantfixit and to all others too, may I say that I fail to see how some lesbians are NOT aggressive!!?? Especially some butch types, excuse me for using that word, which is meant by some as agressively masculine. Isn't that the experiences seen by many persons, even by gays such as I am? Seen by lesbians too? And by other females (straights, bi-s and others???) ? I speak from expriences with a variety of lesbians, straights, bi-s, and others, I have known. I do not think that I am prejudice saying this about butch lesbians; if I am, then you all butch lesbians here tell me, please.

I don't know enough lesbians to make a sweeping generalization. But judging from those I do know, I would say they are no more "aggressive," as a group, than straight women are.

Quote
Of course Lureen is pregnant way before she sees Jack, nothing wrong with that in my book; again, whatever will be will be. How old is she at that time, or at the time she meets Jack for the first time?? Tell me please!! Surely old enough to have sex, right? With or without protection, that is her choice, not mine and she is accepted by I too! She is not 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 - is 18 considered legal in your part of the country?

Lureen attended college, at least for a while, and most people here start college at 18. So she must be 19 or so at the very least when she meets Jack.



Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2008, 01:53:05 pm »
Thans ineedcrayons!

There seems to be a strong difference as to agressiveness in an lesbian couple. Ones'I knew. And have you seen the one's on Oprah last week?

So, I think that Lureen might very well have been a lesbian, if I look at the movie! Scenes, such as looks by that actress, tell me that too.

......
Regarding Lureen attending college. Tell me how you found that out? Does it say somthing about her, you think?
....

I still think that Lureen was pregnant before she met Jack... until someone proves me otherwise, may I say!
.....

Hugs!! (May all pregnant females/ladies be safe and happy in the whole world!!)


Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2008, 01:58:34 pm »
Regarding Lureen attending college. Tell me how you found that out? Does it say somthing about her, you think?

Because at the charity dance, when LaShawn says she was a Tri Delt, Lureen says, "Oh, you was Tri Delt? I was Kappa Phi, myself."

Tri Delt and Kappa Phi are the names of college sororities.

What I think it says about her is that her father was wealthy.




Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2008, 03:41:12 pm »
Thanks ineedcrayons!

Your comment is interesting when you say, proving about Lureen's education: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: Artiste on Today at 12:53:05 PM
Regarding Lureen attending college. Tell me how you found that out? Does it say somthing about her, you think?
... And indeecrayons you replied:
Because at the charity dance, when LaShawn says she was a Tri Delt, Lureen says, "Oh, you was Tri Delt? I was Kappa Phi, myself."

Tri Delt and Kappa Phi are the names of college sororities.

What I think it says about her is that her father was wealthy.



...

Ineedcrayons and to all: I had forgotten that! Thanks for remending me! Right, Lureen did studies therefore at college. That tells me that her education was mainly about accounting??

Her father was wealthy like you say, like she says, like the bartender says too.; any others say so??

It should also say regarding her education many other things?

You would think therefore since she is educated, intelligent, with family (her parents and their bussiness as she already had job with them and which she continues after marrying Jack), etc., that she would not get that pregnant that quick, nor get married that quickly?? I am being positive here, and not debasing her (is that the right word), like I said to each her/his choices in life, I say.

Plus, she surely would have met other young men in college??

Awaiting your news and that from others too,

Hugs!

Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2008, 03:49:35 pm »



          What is your motivation to prove, that she was pregnant before she married jack...What difference does it make?

i understand and respect your opinions...But you seem very determined to have her be pregnant....Why i ask?



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Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2008, 05:39:12 pm »
Thanks ifyoucantfixit!

You say: What is your motivation to prove, that she was pregnant before she married jack...What difference does it make?

i understand and respect your opinions...But you seem very determined to have her be pregnant....Why i ask?

...

I do not know why. Guess Lureen wants and wanted always to protect herself... maybe, since I feel that. Is she pregnant before seeing Jack, is Jack the father, had she sex before seeing Jack, all things, add up and can say about her and life in general or specifically!! They say much!! And secrets too

Everything impacts!! Could it be that she is lesbian, and/or bi-, and or straight, or other???  It could be that she discovered that she was lesbian or bi-, but still wanted a child, a father or someone like that to her futur child, a husband - and so being pregnant BEFORE she met Jack[/i], she needs therefore a quick husband either to save face or something like that- we must not forget that her father loves that grand-son spoiling himit seems!!

Maybe she purposely sent her hat so that Jack, Mr. Handsome, as to-her-thought my-futur-quick-husband... I will fish him and reel him in quickly!!

The fact that the ways  that she accepts her husband, Jack, reveal too, that she maybe reallized what she was before she meets him, and/or after her marriage!!

Lureen is pregnant and wiill need money... since she wants that child!! She is happy to be pregnant! She somehow realizes that she needs money as security; but is having a husband and a father or like one to her child such securities too!! It is obvious that she has to keep face with her own family: her mother and especially her father as she said I must return home by midnight even if I have sex with you my new man Jack!!

Another puzzle is that we know that men do not talk!! I see that in TV soap operas all the time; even to-day watching one with my mother titled Terre Humain. She does ask her husband Jack, can't your friend come here to visit or fish... or something like that, but she does not stress her question or developp it further, why?? One of my brother's, his wife, asks so many questions to all, and if she does not get a reply she seems not given enough, she re-ask it or in many other ways!!  I feel strongly that Lureen would welcome opportunities to talk with Jack, but does not; why, why, why???

Lureen does engage in sex; is not afraid to do so with a stranger (Jack)! Ok, I can accept that readily, having a crush on him; but did she realized that maybe Jack was gay or bi, there and then during or just after that sexual relation, and during her hall attempt at cruising readily: are you wanting for a mating call?? -?? But she is the one who calls, mates - not Jack!!

Or should I say, barely Jack does the mating dance!!

Is it important that Lureen was pregnant when she met Jack? - I figure yes, for many reasons found and not found yet. Lureen is open and yet, secretive!! She probably or possibly only confided with her mother or others ladies... not with men nor to any man, not even to her husband, Jack!! She is  a detective!

Awainting your replies and from all of you too,

hugs!!

Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2008, 06:34:35 pm »
Re.....Artiste...........

Give me strength not to reply......please please......

.....done........saved a lot of typing of something that probably would have been deleted anyway............
Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2008, 07:08:52 pm »
Thanks Katie77!

Katie, I know that life is hard!! That is what the  BM movie is about and Annie's story... I figure. If Lureen was pregnant before she met Jack, that was her affaire and that is accepted by me. I think that I understand her now... more and more.

Since you give me no clues why you reply that way, you know that my weakness will keep on since you do not educate me.

Everyone has a closet, right? And problems. And more and more gays joys hopefully, I have not forgotten. And need more, like all amiable persons seek. Turbulence, we all take turns having some. After a tempest, there is often a gay rainbow to help me live better.

Awaiting your news,

hugs!!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #56 on: January 17, 2008, 01:36:19 am »

Lureen attended college, at least for a while, and most people here start college at 18. So she must be 19 or so at the very least when she meets Jack.




I thought I saw her UT ring on a chain around her neck in one of the scenes. I know that Lashawn attended SMU, but the somewhat burnt orange colorings of Lureen's  Rodeo outfit and the sorority she admitted belonging to makes me think that she was a UT Austin alum, my alma mater. I think she probably graduated, old L.D. is not going to finance his daughter's college and let her drop out. So she is probably 21.

Offline LauraGigs

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #57 on: January 17, 2008, 02:43:12 am »
Everything impacts! Could it be that she is lesbian, and/or bi-, and or straight, or other???  It could be that she discovered that she was lesbian or bi-, but still wanted a child, a father or someone like that to her futur child, a husband - and so being pregnant BEFORE she met Jack, she needs therefore a quick husband either to save face or something like that- we must not forget that her father loves that grand-son spoiling him it seems!!

Several men asked Lureen to dance, and she turned them down. If she just needed a quick husband, it would be easier to go with one of those men. Why would she wait instead for someone like Jack, who didn't seem too interested?  Unless she wasn't pregnant, and really felt something for him?

Quote
Lureen is pregnant and wiill need money... since she wants that child!! She is happy to be pregnant! She somehow realizes that she needs money as security; but is having a husband and a father or like one to her child such securities too!!

But remember, Jack has no money! Again, why would she pick him?  Unless she wasn't pregnant, and really felt something for him?

Offline LauraGigs

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #58 on: January 17, 2008, 02:52:06 am »
Quote from: Artiste
She does ask her husband Jack, can't your friend come here to visit or fish... or something like that, but she does not stress her question or developp it further, why??

She DOES, Artiste!  The scene goes like this:

LUREEN:
  You know, you been going up to Wyoming all these years. Why can't your buddy come down here to Texas and fish?
JACK:  'Cause the Big Horn Mountains ain't in Texas. And I don’t think his pickup could make it here anyways . . .
 . . .Got fourteen hours of driving ahead of me.
LUREEN:  See. Now it don't seem fair, you goin' up there two or three times a year, him never comin' down here...


So she did.  And her concern here is that her husband Jack is not being treated fairly.  What is wrong with that?

Quote
Lureen does engage in sex; is not afraid to do so with a stranger (Jack)! Ok, I can accept that readily, having a crush on him . . .  and then during or just after that sexual relation, and during her hall attempt at cruising readily: are you wanting for a mating call?? But she is the one who calls, mates - not Jack!!

This is really irritating.  We're all fans of Brokeback Mountain, right?  Which means we have no problem with the idea of men having whatever kind of sex they prefer.  WHY, then, do people think that a woman initiating sex is such a radical, immoral thing?

Artiste, you've mentioned meeting guys you like and sleeping with them. But a woman (Lureen) goes out and does the same thing, and you're attributing all these unfavorable characteristics to her (pushy, aggressive, butch, lesbian, secretive, knowing about Jack's murder, etc.) If you hold it against women to behave the same way that you do, you are PREJUDICED and have a DOUBLE STANDARD.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #59 on: January 17, 2008, 11:06:20 am »

Artiste, you've mentioned meeting guys you like and sleeping with them. But a woman (Lureen) goes out and does the same thing, and you're attributing all these unfavorable characteristics to her (pushy, aggressive, butch, lesbian, secretive, knowing about Jack's murder, etc.) If you hold it against women to behave the same way that you do, you are PREJUDICED and have a DOUBLE STANDARD.


I will not presume to speak for the articulate Artiste, but I suspect that what Artiste is referring to is the incongruity of her sexual aggressiveness. I am about 15 years younger than Lureen, but grew up in a small rural Texas community similar to Childress. In the time that I grew up, women from respectable backgrounds did not overtly show the type of aggressiveness that Lureen showed with Jack. There are many more oblique ways to show sexual interest and women certainly could get the point across without hooting the mating call. Jack of course had his attention on both Lureen and the guys in the room, perhaps Lureen was challenged by his lack of drooling interest.

 I don't think that it is inconceivable that Lureen thought that Jack might make a convenient, and submissive husband. She grew up in an environment where the traditional roles of women are emphasized, she had an overpowering father, she is possibly not interested in a man who would be like her father. Furthermore, if you accept that she is pregnant (and if you do the math on Bobby being 8 months old when Jack visits Ennis in Sept 1967 I don't see how you can avoid that conclusion), then the word may have gotten around among the eligible men in her nouveau riche social circuit ("she's damaged goods boys") and Jack may have been her best prospect.

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #60 on: January 17, 2008, 12:58:14 pm »
Thanks brokeplex, thanks LauraGigs, and thanks to others too!!

Some of Lureen's actions are very impulsive, like Jack is at times so too!! (They have that in common, for a good relationship, at least!! Both of you commented and you have my thanks!!

Brokeplex: I wish I had your talent brokeplex to explain, as brilliantly as you did. Thanks!

LauraGigs, I like your frankness. It remains that society does not accept my actions nor Lureen's, then nor now too??


If I can do it, I know that Lureen can do it, you are saying LauraGigs; I agree with you!!  But in the straight world, the mating game does not usually accepts that, right, neither from me nor from Lureen!! At least, society is changing... and we can hope, and act for it to change for better of all humans!!

May I say:
Lureen likely knew the other men at that bar, and even if she was cruised by them or some, she preferred NOT TO BE CRUISED since she is like her father, agressive!! She does NOT want an agressive man like them!! 

Jack is not agressive towards her, but likes her delicious smile, her ladyship-ways, her physique too surely because she is sexy in more than one way, very attractive and modernly expensively dressed, etc.; she is a  catch or will be... by most. Since she does not know Jack yet, she has an amiable eye for him, for many reasons, as he is sexy, her height desire, manly dressed, beautiful eyes, helpful picking up her hat and civilized doing so, - and much more, since she is intelligent, knowledgeable about men having worked in her father $ high class bussiness, and Jack to her is something great to capture!!

Jack she knows will move her... in wondrous ways for her plan as a potential husband, since that is her aim!!

If a man was gay, she would know, as she is no fool; she has maybe gaydar sensing Jack is gay or bi, lilely!  She has a secret and she knows that her secret will be kept since Jack has his own secret; so, she finds the perfect man for her in order to keep her secret to herself (since only her mother likely knows - and maybe her father via her mother- too); she does keep secrets, right??

She does not tell Jack when she mates him sexually, she does not have to do so even thought she is pregnant already but she only has a bit of time before her pregnancy shows to the general public. Her mother knows about it already, surely; and, maybe told her daughter: get married now and soonest!! To see Jack then at the rodeo where she happilly dropped her hat to him ( as ladies did in the monarchy courts) is something, an effort to say to Jack hello sexy?? !! -

And to immediately chase after Jack is something, refusing another more masculine and tall man at that bar is something too, but for her to swim to Jack at that bar and oblige him to dance with him is very much mating, like her same agressiveness with sex is essential with Jack immediately after, so he would think that he is or maybe the father of that futur son, since no rubbers was used so quickly enhanced was that sexual action; Jack was surprised, but she was not surpised since she had him planned as her plan!!

She is lesbian, discovered that in college, may I add?

Of course, Jack cooperates; he does not know that she is lesbian... not right now. Will her later??

Wow, what a movie about guys and girls, and sweet sex!!

Awaiting your news,

hugs, hugs!!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #61 on: January 17, 2008, 01:13:53 pm »

I think the reason that Lureen and Jack were attracted to one another... and that they seemed to function rather well as friends is that they both do not fit the gender norms/ gender expectations for their time.

Lureen wants to be a successful business woman.  And, she wants to choose her mate for herself and according to her own standards (not her father's) and according to her own timing in initiating the interaction between herself and Jack in the bar.  She does try to flirt more subtly from across the room (by making eye-contact, etc.), but this doesn't seem to work with Jack.  So, she decides to become more aggressive.  I definitely applaud Lureen for following her own urges and timing.  Etc.

I truly don't see any evidence in BBM to support the idea that Lureen was a lesbian.  As a gay woman myself, I would definitely have enjoyed seeing gay-female culture included in BBM on some level.  But, I really don't believe that it was.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #62 on: January 17, 2008, 01:54:53 pm »
WHY, then, do people think that a woman initiating sex is such a radical, immoral thing?

That's what I was alluding to in my earlier post. I don't like to throw around the word "sexist" (though, oops, I guess I just did) but I am troubled that people hold Lureen's assertiveness against her. This applies not only to her behavior with Jack but her commitment to her work. Yes, her bold moves with Jack and, later, her career drive may have been unusual in 1960s small-town Texas. So if people want to call Lureen unusual, fine. But some don't -- some call her a slut (in so many words), aggressive, pushy, a bad wife, a bad mother, a cold woman, a wife who wants to "wear the pants," etc. All of these are genuinely offensive to a 21st century feminist who believes Lureen's behavior would -- or at least should -- be perfectly normal and acceptable now. An anachronism for her time? Maybe. But genuinely wrong or mean or irresponsible or immoral? No way.

I'm not addressing this speficially to Artiste, who I believe actually presented softer views than some I've seen expressed. Occasionally I am shocked at what I have seen written about a woman who, as far as I can tell, only did two things wrong in her life:

1) eavesdropped on some customers calling her husband an unflattering name and failed to burst in and leap to his defense, even though doing so may have endangered hundreds of thousands of dollars in sales for the company.

2) Forgot to call Bobby's teacher.

Well, three if you count choosing a bad hair color.

I think the reason that Lureen and Jack were attracted to one another... and that they seemed to function rather well as friends is that they both do not fit the gender norms/ gender expectations for their time.

I think this is true. They functioned well as friends, and Jack was actually attracted to Lureen on some level -- not in a sexual way, but more like intrigued by her boldness and attractiveness (and money).

However, over time their relationship stops working even in this way. Lureen gets more and more frustrated, as expressed in her hair color and clothes, and Jack eventually complains about her work habits and says they could do their marriage over the phone. Well yeah -- maybe that has something to do with his lack of romantic or sexual interest in her.







Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #63 on: January 17, 2008, 02:44:08 pm »
Yes, clearly their relationship gets strained over time (and for numerous reasons probably).  But, I think deep down Jack and Lureen loved each other very much in their own way.


the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

moremojo

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #64 on: January 17, 2008, 02:54:31 pm »
Well, three if you count choosing a bad hair color
Four if you count her cool, catty retort to Lashawn when informed of the latter's college sorority. Heck, five if you include her pointed, barbed question to Jack in the same sequence.

Truth be told, Lureen has never struck me as a particularly nice person, which isn't the same, admittedly, as a bad person, which I do not see her as. She was, like all the other characters, all too human, flaws and all.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #65 on: January 17, 2008, 03:22:31 pm »
Four if you count her cool, catty retort to Lashawn when informed of the latter's college sorority. Heck, five if you include her pointed, barbed question to Jack in the same sequence.

True, her retort to LaShawn was catty. Her question to Jack, though, seems legitimate -- especially if you see the subtext as being "How come husbands never sleep with their wives?" -- though at the dinner table with another couple is perhaps is not the best place to ask it.  :laugh:



Offline Artiste

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Was Lureen pregnant before she met Jack?
« Reply #66 on: January 17, 2008, 03:52:49 pm »
Wow, wow, wow, wow, thanks ineedcrayons, thanks moremojo, thanks atz75, thanks brokeplex, thanks LauraGigs, thanks Katie77, and thanks to all others too!!

For the record, I do not think that Lureen is a slut! To each his own... I say. (I had sex with many persons and do not consider myself such!!)

Of course, maybe she is an odd duck (for the lack of a better word if I may say, according to her times... those 60's, 70's... and I applaud her for being in the sexual revolution - and act it in a way she could which come to think of it, it is that time: revolution!!

May I repeat REVOLUTION!! May I repeat that I think that she is lesbian and/or bi-, since she is in that time period, no? But I will add that she can NOT come out of the closet... then those days even if it is a sexual revolution (not for gay men thaty much, especially not for lesbians nor bi-s... maybe better for bi-s though)!!

Lureen could not come out as a lesbian nor as a bi- then,  nor now in 2008 (althought 2008, maybe she could if she moved; see Oprah with lesbians on her recent 2008 show).

Of course, I think Lureen was pregnat before she met Jack. And she saved herself since she was a lesbian and/or bi- lady! By marrying Jack! That is OK in my book!! For both!!


More later, as may I have your comments from all of you,

hugs!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #67 on: January 17, 2008, 04:08:43 pm »
Neither the film nor the story of BBM present us with any concrete evidence that Lureen had multiple sexual partners or any other sexual partner than Jack.  Yes, the timeline is messed up... but the timeline of BBM is messed up in many ways (not just with regard to Lureen, Bobby and Jack).  And, of course, even if she did have other lovers, this in no way justifies the use of such a derogatory term as "slut."

Lureen is one of my favorite characters in the movie.  And, it's exactly because she's ambitious and assertive that I like her.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #68 on: January 17, 2008, 04:13:40 pm »
BBM characters (besides Jack, Ennis, Rich and Earl) who some people speculate are gay:

1) Lureen
2) Aguirre
3) John Twist

BBM characters (besides Mr. Del Mar) who some people speculate are murderers:

1) Lureen
2) L.D. Newsome

Am I missing anyone?

And, of course, even if she did have other lovers, this in no way justifies the use of such a derogatory term as "slut."

To be fair, I was paraphrasing. Let's say that people have suggested that she was overly promiscuous.




Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #69 on: January 17, 2008, 04:23:18 pm »

To be fair, I was paraphrasing. Let's say that people have suggested that she was overly promiscuous.


Hey Bud,
Yes, I definitely realize this.

My post was really bouncing off of (sort of reiterating in different terms) this comment:


For the record, I do not think that Lureen is a slut! To each his own... I say.
 

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #70 on: January 17, 2008, 05:12:32 pm »
There was something that bothered me about this question, but I couldn't really figure out what it was until recently. Seeminingly innocuous on the surface, the question is revealing itself as a loaded question. First of all, it is not possible to definitely answer the question from the facts that we are given either in the story or the film. So, we are left with speculating, and all sorts of baggage gets dredged up in the process.

I will just answer it this way. I think that Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana were trying to make the women's characters more interesting and fleshed-out in the screenplay in order to give the movie greater appeal (altho I don't really think it was necessary but it did lead to a good result...the characters of the women ARE very interesting, as Larry McMurtry's characters usually are...think Terms of Endearment). Also, I think they were trying to contrast the characters of Alma and Lureen...Alma as a rural woman and Lureen as a small-town woman of the Texas persuasion. Thirdly, I think they were trying to give the flavor of the times, women's liberation and all that that entails. I don't think pregnancy was on the minds of either the scriptwriters or Annie Proulx.

"chewing gum and duct tape"

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #71 on: January 17, 2008, 05:31:28 pm »
There was something that bothered me about this question, but I couldn't really figure out what it was until recently. Seeminingly innocuous on the surface, the question is revealing itself as a loaded question. First of all, it is not possible to definitely answer the question from the facts that we are given either in the story or the film. So, we are left with speculating, and all sorts of baggage gets dredged up in the process.

I will just answer it this way. I think that Larry McMurtry and Diana Ossana were trying to make the women's characters more interesting and fleshed-out in the screenplay in order to give the movie greater appeal (altho I don't really think it was necessary but it did lead to a good result...the characters of the women ARE very interesting, as Larry McMurtry's characters usually are...think Terms of Endearment). Also, I think they were trying to contrast the characters of Alma and Lureen...Alma as a rural woman and Lureen as a small-town woman of the Texas persuasion. Thirdly, I think they were trying to give the flavor of the times, women's liberation and all that that entails. I don't think pregnancy was on the minds of either the scriptwriters or Annie Proulx.

Heya Sister Mod.  I definitely agree with what you wrote here.

I think the additional difficulty with the question, which I've mentioned before, is that the timeline (especially the way it's handled in the film) is flawed on a number of levels.  So counting months, etc., is a hard way to produce evidence about this particular question.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #72 on: January 17, 2008, 06:08:32 pm »


        i agree with what you ladies said completely.. i have been trying to discuss this question ratiionally.  But there are
some that are intent on having it be so.  i think that the question is a back handed dig at Lureen.  It gives much in the
way of someone with an axe to grind.  To blame her for entrapment of Jack.  I don't care for that at all. 



     Beautiful mind

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #73 on: January 17, 2008, 06:20:10 pm »
I think it's a legitimate line of speculation, in large part precisely because of the discrepancies in the timeline. Like some others, I prefer to think that Lureen was not pregnant when she met Jack, not wanting to overanalyze details that the author and filmmakers probably (in my opinion) did not mean any great import by, but those details nonetheless are there (or can be legitimately inferred), and can form a reasonable basis for a variety of interpretations.

At any rate, I don't think a view that Lureen was pregnant need necessarily impugn her character or dignity. She was a human being doing the best she could with what she knew and expected from her world, like all the other characters in the story/film.

Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #74 on: January 17, 2008, 06:25:28 pm »
If Laureen had not been as up front and agressively cheeky with Jack, then they probably would not have even got together. Laureen obviously saw Jack look over at her, and maybe recognised that if it was going to happen it was going to be up to her to make the first move......she may have thought he was shy or even intimidated by her, and he probably was.

I think Jack was caught up in the fact that someone actually was not rejecting him, someone was showing some interest in him and he was enjoying the experience....

He probably would have preferred it, if this interest had come from Ennis, or at least one of the guys in the bar, but so far that had not happened, so maybe it was time for him to take what was offered to him and try to enjoy it. His lack of experience with women was counteracted by Laureens boldness and it was clear to Jack, that if he went with Laureen, that she was capable of leading him and showing him what to do, and how to do it.

If not for a woman like Laureen, Jack would probably have not even linked up with a female, let alone got married......Jack was probably never going to make an advance to any woman, so when Laureen came along, he jumped on the "roller coaster", she obviously offered him a somewhat easier way of life than rodeoing, and she fulfilled his emotional need to have somone who cared about him.....and he was able to lead a life that was accepted by society. (Isn't that what is happening even in these times, when gay men get married and try to live a normal heterosexual lifestyle?)

I do not think Laureen was slutty, she was a flirt, and pretty sure of her sexuality and attraction...and cheeky enough to act on it........some men may have been intimated by that....Jack, I think, was overwhelmed and humoured by it.

I do not think she was a Lesbian, there is no indication that her sexual preferences were towards women, and just because a woman is forthright and dominant does not make them a lesbian.

Whether she was pregnant or not?......I dont think she was, even though the movie timeline indicates differently....I think the writers miscalculated by a few months there, in their intention to show how quickly it all happened for Jack.....there he was a single rodeo guy, trolling the bars for a man, no real future, alone and rejected.......then within a short space of time, he was married, with a baby in a job selling farm equipment, leading a socially accepted heterosexual lifestyle....like I said earlier....he jumped on the roller coaster......


Being happy doesn't mean everything is perfect.

It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #75 on: January 17, 2008, 07:30:01 pm »
Thanks very much and dearly all of you ami(e)!!

Katie, may I quote: If Laureen had not been as up front and agressively cheeky with Jack, then they probably would not have even got together
.....

Katie and to all, may I say that I agree and applaud Lureen for that!! Even if she was straight, lesbian, bi-, or other orientation, or a combination!! I think her pursuit and purpose combines that she eyed Jack and grabbed him, for many wondrous reasons, and not just for colourful sex, although that was nice for both (Jack and her!! (And for us too!! I am grateful!!) I still think that she is lesbian or bi-, and did know that then (as I have tried to prove), or felt it, or discovered it living with Jack!!

Thank goodness Lureen was indeed like you say ...up front and agressively cheeky with Jack, then they probably would not have even got together!! I enjoy seeing Jack and her!! I think that see saved and still saves Jack's life!! - and that says much, and much to be said yet too!!

To me, no offence to anyone and sorry if I did offend any person, Lureen was pregnant before she met Jack: about or so one month pregnant!! No harm done for her to be in, I say! So, she knew that or not!! ??
....

Will say more later, and thanks for your very interesting  comment Katie, awaiting your comments and from others too,

hugs!


Offline twistedude

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #76 on: January 17, 2008, 07:48:37 pm »
Answer to question: No.

Was she pregnant when she married Jack? Possibly ( it is clearly emphasized, several times, in the movie, that Lureen's father hates Jack. So you can't help wondering, occasionally, why he allowed her to marry him....but she may have done it against his will, or on the sneak).

Anyway, he's going on 44 now...at least my Bobby is. This is installed over their front door:
"We're each of us alone, to be sure. What can you do but hold your hand out in the dark?" --"Nine Lives," by Ursula K. Le Guin, from The Wind's Twelve Quarters

Offline brokebackjack

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #77 on: January 18, 2008, 01:40:59 am »
oh, no way. Lureen was a spontaneous willful girl. She wanted jack and got more then she bargained for.

What Lureen wanted, Lureen got.

But she was also smitten with Jack and IMHO truly loved him. As for Jack he tried, but ended up being 'buddies'. Hence her increasing bittrness, the mask she assumed towards the world, the mask which Anne Hathaway so brilliantly allowed to slip during her filmed scene with the telephone call....
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline Fran

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #78 on: January 18, 2008, 12:10:23 pm »
Someone apparently miscalculated when deciding the date of the rodeo, the postmark on the "coming thru" postcard, and/or Jack's "eight months old" comment.  But since I want BBM to be "perfect," I'm going to blame the reunion kiss and offer this explanation:

After that powerful kiss, it's a wonder that Jack could even remember he had a wife and a son.  He did manage to get his wife's name right, so I can forgive him for misspeaking and getting his son's age wrong.  Remember, he was nervous around Alma and just babbling.  Maybe he was thinking of the Motel 8 he passed on the way into town.  :)

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #79 on: January 18, 2008, 12:29:23 pm »
Maybe he was thinking of the Motel 8 he passed on the way into town.  :)
:laugh: I like your way of thinking, friend!

Offline southendmd

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #80 on: January 18, 2008, 09:45:43 pm »
It would take a math-hardened Brokie to figure out Lureen's gestation!

I think the film-makers intended the backseat scene to tell us that was when Bobby was conceived. 

You'd have to have seen the film upty-nine times to figure out this little discrepancy.  (Clearly, that describes more than a few of us.)

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #81 on: January 18, 2008, 10:37:41 pm »
Southendmd, you are an md??

If you look, it seems that Lureen was at least pregnant when she met Jack, at least a few weeks and maybe one month (or more)!! ??

So, if that was so, then her physical, etc., changes had started?? Tell us as an MD??

Hugs!

Offline Dal

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #82 on: January 19, 2008, 09:00:23 am »
So, in answer to the question, I must submit...maybe. This could help to explain the perception that some have voiced that the child cast as Bobby in the Thanksgiving scene does not resemble Jake's Jack very strongly.
Perhaps Bobby is really the son of the marshall who is later to become Jack's handler in Witness Protection.

Offline Sandy

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #83 on: January 19, 2008, 02:32:52 pm »
I think Lureen is absolutely fabulous, a strong female character who contradicts Alma’s quiet acceptance of her life.  She is strong minded and wilful, and I have no doubt that her parents, both Mum and Dad, adore her. 

I also have no doubt whatsoever that Jack was Bobby’s father.  Lureen’s Dad would have been more than happy to get rid of Jack and help her out as a single mother.  She had the family backing and I don’t think that she NEEDED a husband to validate her pregnancy. 

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #84 on: January 19, 2008, 03:24:55 pm »
I also have no doubt whatsoever that Jack was Bobby’s father.  Lureen’s Dad would have been more than happy to get rid of Jack and help her out as a single mother.  She had the family backing and I don’t think that she NEEDED a husband to validate her pregnancy. 

Lureen was ahead of her time in many ways, but in 1967 having a baby out of wedlock was still pretty scandalous. I don't think either Lureen or her dad would have been comfortable with that.


Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #85 on: January 19, 2008, 03:47:53 pm »
Thanks all of you!! Such great comments!!

Ineedcrayons, may I quote you:
Quote
Lureen was ahead of her time in many ways, but in 1967 having a baby out of wedlock was still pretty scandalous. I don't think either Lureen or her dad would have been comfortable with that.

....

Ineedcrayons, may I be in complete agreement with you. Maybe you know and some of you do too, that I think that Lureen was a lesbian, at least bisexual!! Welcome to see my thread on that, you and all are!!

As to wedlock, even if her father and mother would have accepted that, Lureen is like her dad and mom, descent so to raise that child to be in a safe way: safe being that no such scandal could exist not only for themselves who are accepted in society, but for that big money bussiness; they are all 3 high class or somewhat, at least wealthy to a certain extent; her dad loving money and comfort like TV, big machines to sell so expensively, and their daughter likes that money and business too, - she is raised that way as well!! Lureen is their ONLY child!! For that??

I see: Lureen was indeed pregnant before she meets Jack and so grabs him and holds on...to him for many wondrous reasons. I applaud her!

I used to live in a city where one of my brother's lived, in front a of huge mansion which had only wedlock girls... far, far away from their parents's homes, since they had to be protected in many ways. One such girl was young and she visited my brother and his wive often; wild she was... if I may say that expression. She gave the child away! WE all love that child now grown up... and married and with two lovable children like their parents!! Qu'est-ce sera, sera, then and with some now; now such youth, some, keep  their child, and so that buiding is gone!!
What will be, will be; life is coloured.

Lureen would not have given that child?

Hugs!!

Offline Sandy

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #86 on: January 19, 2008, 03:49:34 pm »
Lureen was ahead of her time in many ways, but in 1967 having a baby out of wedlock was still pretty scandalous. I don't think either Lureen or her dad would have been comfortable with that.


I think I was really trying to say that her Dad was happy to support her as a single mother, therefore there was no reason for her to find a husband.  But I do see what you're saying-I suppose it was alright in those days to be a mother whose husband had abandoned her than a single pregnant female.  

I still don't think that she was pregnant when she met him-to be honest, that really just comes from my opposition to the notion that, because she's sexually confident, she got pregnant.  This is too much of a cliche for my taste!  

I may be wrong, but has it been established through time lines etc that the marriage to Jack happened around the same time?  They may well have been married for a good while before the baby came along.  I'd be interested to see if anyone has worked this out.

Offline brokebackjack

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #87 on: January 19, 2008, 05:12:33 pm »
I just don't see Lureen being pregnant when she met Jack, if  for no other reason then this: she was competing in a rodeo, where falls and indeed, life threatening accidents occur frequently. If she wass pregnant she would never have entered that competition
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Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #88 on: January 19, 2008, 06:14:11 pm »



               Good point Jack...Nevermind the throwing up and nausea that is often apparent in the first trimester.
I can't imagine riding a horse and being nauseous...yikes



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Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #89 on: January 19, 2008, 08:18:41 pm »
If Lureen was only one month or less pregnant, she could easily do her rodeo and see Jack for the First time?

Without the nausea. Right? May I suggest.

After all, she has an eye on Jack, before she rides her horse and leaves her hat to fall, like a lady does in the courts for a man to pick it up, I figure?

Hugs!

Offline Luvlylittlewing

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #90 on: January 20, 2008, 02:40:15 am »
I just don't see Lureen being pregnant when she met Jack, if  for no other reason then this: she was competing in a rodeo, where falls and indeed, life threatening accidents occur frequently. If she wass pregnant she would never have entered that competition

Unless the child was unwanted and she didn't care if she lost it.

Offline Ellemeno

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #91 on: January 20, 2008, 06:11:44 am »
Unless the child was unwanted and she didn't care if she lost it.


Right.  When I was younger I knew women who treated their bodies pretty harshly in hopes of dislodging a maybe baby growing inside.

Lureen's nipples don't look pregnant when she takes her bra off. 

I'm also thinking that she was hot for Jack and she knew she didn't need him to be a provider.  She and Daddy were going to be the providers.  She could just have him for his cuteness and sweetness and that would be plenty.

I like this pregnancy question.  None of us know the answer.  But pregnancy or possible pregnancy have shaped the rest of people's lives since time began.

BTW, after someone mentioned several pages back that Brigitte Bardot is a lesbian, I did a search on that.  While I found a lesbian movie scene she was in on YouTube (hubba hubba), I saw no mention of her real life sexual preferences anywhere. 



Offline Penthesilea

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #92 on: January 20, 2008, 06:42:27 am »
I still don't think that she was pregnant when she met him-to be honest, that really just comes from my opposition to the notion that, because she's sexually confident, she got pregnant.  This is too much of a cliche for my taste!  

Good point.

Quote
I may be wrong, but has it been established through time lines etc that the marriage to Jack happened around the same time?  They may well have been married for a good while before the baby came along.  I'd be interested to see if anyone has worked this out.


Yup, people have worked this out. In fact, the timeline is the only argument (IMO) which speaks pro an already existing pregnancy. Talking about the movie here, since we don't have any clues from Annie's story about the timeline in this regard.

In short: Lureen and Jack met after July, 4th, 1966, because it was after the fireworks scene. Brokeplex says they met in August 1966; there's a sign to be read at the rodeo event when they meet (I haven't looked this up).
Do the math: 9 months pregnancy + Bobby being 8 months old = 17 months.
But from July/August 1966 to September 1967 (=time of the reunion) it's only 14/13 months.

More detailed explanations about the timeline can be found here:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,15379.msg311426.html#msg311426

and here:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,16269.msg316451.html#msg316451


I personally think she was not pregnant when she met Jack. I think she was really smitten by him. That's why she approached him with her matin' call, not because she was pregnant.
I can't see anything hinting towards a pregnancy (apart from the timeline, that is). And I simply think they made a mistake with the timeline.

Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #93 on: January 20, 2008, 05:04:24 pm »
The social censure would have been too much for the Newsomes to handle if Lureen had borne a child out of wedlock.

I agree. The stigma on a woman raising a child on her own was much milder than on a woman getting pregnant outside of marriage. Back in them days, you weren't even supposed to have sex outside of marriage!



« Last Edit: January 20, 2008, 06:24:21 pm by ineedcrayons »

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #94 on: January 20, 2008, 06:51:08 pm »
Thanks Ellemeno!

I believe that Brigitte Bardot is lesbian, since I think mentioned that here, and that I had seen that on TV, about her life, either in English, likely in a French documentary film. S.V.P., if you not Brigitte, please forgive me. I knew persons who did communicated with her, since they and many other gays... lived in many apartment buildings she owned, sold and re-owned because they complained to her since she had promised never to sell nor put them out! Maybe they had mentioned to me that she was. Anyway, I feel that Lureen is not Brigitte, but she was known by the others men as many like a sex kitten Brigitte was know to be via her movies; Lureen does act so rapidly having sex with Jack, taking her clothes off and mounting him, etc.; no harm done, I say since I applaud her if that was what she wanted and did!!

I do think that Lureen was at least one month or near so pregnant, and feeling sexy (valid even more for sex as in that state??), and so she rushed Jack for sex and into marriage. As some of you know, I am also trying to prove that Lureen is a lesbian and must therefore find a husband quickly too! See my thread if Lureen is lesbian or bisexual.

There is/are ambivalence, is that the right word about Lureen, her actions, her words, her anxiousness, etc.; may I say, and if she is lesbian, then that says something about her actions!!

No harm done anyone to anyone on Bettermost nor to those in Annie's story or in the MB movie nor to any writers, any others; that is my investigation as possiblities.

Why Lureen have issues?? There are women issues, right to exploit, mentioned in the BM movie??
I need help...

hugs!!

Hugs!!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #95 on: January 20, 2008, 07:59:23 pm »
Lureen does act so rapidly having sex with Jack, taking her clothes off and mounting him, etc.; no harm done, I say since I applaud her if that was what she wanted and did!!

I do think that Lureen was at least one month or near so pregnant, and feeling sexy (valid even more for sex as in that state??), and so she rushed Jack for sex and into marriage. As some of you know, I am also trying to prove that Lureen is a lesbian and must therefore find a husband quickly too! See my thread if Lureen is lesbian or bisexual.


Artiste, I really don't understand what you mean with these two observations.  In the first instance, you note that Lureen is assertive/excited/pro-active about having sex with Jack.  This only serves to demonstrate that Lureen is heterosexual.  I agree, that it's great for her that she's so sexually confident and I also applaud her for that.  But, still her excitement is over having sex with a man... which visually demonstrates to the viewer that she's at least got strong heterosexual desires/urges.

And, I don't understand why, if Lureen was a lesbian she would be interested in finding a husband at all. 

If she was pregnant before she met Jack (as you say you believe)... then this implies that you think she has yet another sexual encounter with another man.  Again, this would go to demonstrate that Lureen is interested in men and in having sex with men. 

We are not given any evidence that she has had sex with a woman of prefers to have sex with women... which is the definition of what a lesbian is.  If she is bisexual... we're not shown any actions on her part to demonstrate this.  We simply don't know enough about her character in certain respects.  On a completely speculative level it is possible that Lureen is bisexual... since a bisexual woman would be interested in men and women.  But, again, we don't see Lureen demonstrate interest in women in the film (and certainly not in the story)... so any notion that she could possibly be bisexual is entirely hypothetical.

But, what we do know for sure is that Lureen is very sexually confident and self-aware.  If she was a lesbian she would be using her sexual confidence to flirt with women and pursue women... not Jack.




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Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #96 on: January 21, 2008, 12:05:18 am »
I agree, character Lureen was not meant to be portrayed as a Lesbian. I don't believe that it is accidental on the part of the screen writers and Ang Lee to leave us tiny clues that Lureen was however pregnant with Bobby when she met Jack. Jack was convenient for Lureen to marry in several ways.

But, unlike Jack, Lureen was not using a marriage partner as a "beard" to hide a closeted life.

I thought of Jack's rodeo days today when D.L. put a George Strait CD into the player in my truck and I heard him sing, "Amarillo by Morning".

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #97 on: January 21, 2008, 11:57:00 am »
There's not one shred of evidence that Lureen was a lesbian -- on the contrary, all evidence suggests that she was straight. It's not the least bit ambiguous. The movie wouldn't even make any sense if Lureen were a lesbian. Frankly, I'm sick of going back to this question over and over.

As for whether she was pregnant, that's another story. There is some evidence that can be interpreted to mean she was already pregnant. Or that evidence can be dismissed as a combination of filming error and coincidence. I guess, ultimately, it's in the eye of the beholder.

If she WAS already pregnant, it wouldn't have much consequence for the rest of the movie. It would explain their hasty marriage, but that can be attributed to more obvious factors. She was attracted to Jack, she was bold and assertive and went for what she wanted. He was broke and tired of striking out with men, found her appealing in a Platonic way, and was resigned to conforming to cultural expectations of what men were supposed to do.

The only repercussions a possible existing pregnancy creates are: It helps explain why Jack was so amenable to ditching his family of the sweet life. And it explains why L.D. Newsome backed down so quickly over Thanksgiving dinner.



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #98 on: January 21, 2008, 03:32:03 pm »
If she WAS already pregnant, it wouldn't have much consequence for the rest of the movie. It would explain their hasty marriage, but that can be attributed to more obvious factors. She was attracted to Jack, she was bold and assertive and went for what she wanted. He was broke and tired of striking out with men, found her appealing in a Platonic way, and was resigned to conforming to cultural expectations of what men were supposed to do.

Maybe it wasn't even necessarily "platonic," if Jack, "tired of striking out with men," was at the point of trying to be straight or trying to deny his sexual attraction to men. I think he genuinely liked the direction she was going when she was clearly aiming for sex in the back seat of that car. He wouldn't have been the first gay man to have done this, and he sure enough wasn't the last.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #99 on: January 21, 2008, 05:07:44 pm »
Maybe it wasn't even necessarily "platonic," if Jack, "tired of striking out with men," was at the point of trying to be straight or trying to deny his sexual attraction to men. I think he genuinely liked the direction she was going when she was clearly aiming for sex in the back seat of that car. He wouldn't have been the first gay man to have done this, and he sure enough wasn't the last.

Well, this is a debate we've had before and it looks like we're still on opposite sides of it.  ;)

I'm sure other gay men have done that. Ennis, for example. But to me, Jack looks pretty lonely on the dance floor. And in the backseat he looks like someone who suddenly realizes he has bitten off more than he can chew.


Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #100 on: January 21, 2008, 06:00:41 pm »
Thanks all of you!!

May I say:
Why wally in the valley of despair? - like Dr. King said!! Annie's story to me brings hope... determination for us all to go on top of that mountain like Jack and Ennis for happiness by love for us all, I say! And come back into the valley to make there better and better too, by changing that also... for continued love shared!!

WE can think that
Quote
the... character Lureen was not meant to be portrayed as a Lesbian.
THat is because Jack and Ennis are the main ones. Lureen is not just secondary, upon re-thought. She is lesbian, she knows that or not, when she is pregnant - may I question ?? !!

I feel strongly that she is lesbian and am happy with her actions, throughout.

Must rush... see your thoughts later all of you!!

HUgs!!  May all Lureens realize their dreams, and Jacks too, as well as Ennis'... and others !!

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #101 on: January 21, 2008, 06:14:26 pm »
I feel strongly that she is lesbian and am happy with her actions, throughout.

Artiste, you have addressed this issue on a number of threads lately. You've also started a thread devoted to discussing this topic.

From now on, I would ask that you and others discuss Lureen's possible pregnancy on this thread, and discuss Lureen's possible lesbianism on the thread that you have started for that purpose.

Thanks!



Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #102 on: January 21, 2008, 07:05:12 pm »
Well, this is a debate we've had before and it looks like we're still on opposite sides of it.  ;)

I'm sure other gay men have done that. Ennis, for example. But to me, Jack looks pretty lonely on the dance floor. And in the backseat he looks like someone who suddenly realizes he has bitten off more than he can chew.



I guess we have discussed this, haven't we?

He briefly looks a little surprised ("You are in a hurry!"), but that's not a boy who's bitten off more than he can chew. That's a boy who's surprised he's apparently going to get more than he expected. (It's 1966 and "nice girls don't," after all.) But when he tells Lureen that, fast or slow, he just likes the direction she's goin', that's a young man who's very happy that his gun's goin' a go off. ...
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline smellykellyjay

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #103 on: January 21, 2008, 08:37:35 pm »
He briefly looks a little surprised ("You are in a hurry!"), but that's not a boy who's bitten off more than he can chew. That's a boy who's surprised he's apparently going to get more than he expected. (It's 1966 and "nice girls don't," after all.) But when he tells Lureen that, fast or slow, he just likes the direction she's goin', that's a young man who's very happy that his gun's goin' a go off. ...

You know what some say. . . it don't matter what they look like, cause when the lights go out, it's either feast or famine, honey. 
I been one poor correspondent, and I been too, too hard to find, but it doesn't mean you ain't been on my mind.  -- America

Offline opinionista

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #104 on: January 21, 2008, 09:09:56 pm »
If she WAS already pregnant, it wouldn't have much consequence for the rest of the movie. It would explain their hasty marriage, but that can be attributed to more obvious factors. She was attracted to Jack, she was bold and assertive and went for what she wanted. He was broke and tired of striking out with men, found her appealing in a Platonic way, and was resigned to conforming to cultural expectations of what men were supposed to do.

The only repercussions a possible existing pregnancy creates are: It helps explain why Jack was so amenable to ditching his family of the sweet life. And it explains why L.D. Newsome backed down so quickly over Thanksgiving dinner.

I think that actually proves the contrary. If Jack wasn't the father and supposing LD Newsome actually knew it (which I doubt), he would feel more powerful to tell Jack to shut up in that scene. He would have plenty of reason to remind Jack he is a nobody in the family, not even Bobby's actual dad.

Also there was no need for Jack not to be Bobby's biological dad in order to be amenable to ditching his family. Many people abandon their kids for a lot of reasons, both women and men. One thing has nothing to do with the other. 

For the record, I don't think Lureen was pregnant before meeting Jack. To me that theory makes no sense within the plot.
Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement. -Mark Twain.

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #105 on: January 21, 2008, 10:00:19 pm »
He briefly looks a little surprised ("You are in a hurry!"), but that's not a boy who's bitten off more than he can chew. That's a boy who's surprised he's apparently going to get more than he expected. (It's 1966 and "nice girls don't," after all.) But when he tells Lureen that, fast or slow, he just likes the direction she's goin', that's a young man who's very happy that his gun's goin' a go off. ...

To me, he looks like he's going along to get along. When the action takes a more drastic turn than he expected, not only does he look surprised, but his smile, to me, looks very fake. I guess this is just one a them debates that's in the eye of the beholder.

For example, if I were desperate for sex, and someone of the, well, "wrong" gender offered it ... well, no offense to anyone but, to put it delicately, I think I'd wind up still desperate for sex. I mean, if all you want is to get your gun off, do you even really need another person at all? (Sorry, I guess that's not all that delicate.) On the other hand, it's possible that, as a typical woman, I'm less desperate for sex in general than the early-20s man. Either that, or more self-sufficient!  :laugh:

You and I have discussed this before, Jeff, but I'd be curious what other gay men have to say. Do y'all think the typical early-20-something gay guy would be happy, in a pinch, to get it wherever he can?

I think that actually proves the contrary. If Jack wasn't the father and supposing LD Newsome actually knew it (which I doubt), he would feel more powerful to tell Jack to shut up in that scene. He would have plenty of reason to remind Jack he is a nobody in the family, not even Bobby's actual dad.

True, that could be, too. My thinking was that, if Lureen was already pregnant, and the family knows it, then for years they've depended on Jack to uphold his end of a lie. He hasn't held it over them, until now. He's allowed L.D. to be the stud duck. But when push comes to shove, he reminds them -- "this is MY child" -- that he has the power to destroy Lureen's (and the Newsomes') reputation.

Quote
Also there was no need for Jack not to be Bobby's biological dad in order to be amenable to ditching his family. Many people abandon their kids for a lot of reasons, both women and men. One thing has nothing to do with the other.

Oh, I know many people abandon their kids, but I don't agree that one has nothing to do with the other. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. It's perfectly plausible that Jack would be willing to abandon his biological child. But if Bobby were NOT his biological child, he'd have a tiny bit less motivation to stick around.




Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #106 on: January 21, 2008, 11:44:42 pm »
To me, he looks like he's going along to get along. When the action takes a more drastic turn than he expected, not only does he look surprised, but his smile, to me, looks very fake. I guess this is just one a them debates that's in the eye of the beholder.

It must be, because all the times I've seen this film, I see nothing fake or forced in Jack's smile. Besides, it just doesn't seem logical to me. If Jack wasn't interested in being, er, intimate with Lureen, he wouldn't have gone parking with her in the first place. Surely he wasn't so naive as not to see what direction she was heading, with her aggressive pursuit of him at the bar, even if he wasn't expecting to go all the way.

Quote
For example, if I were desperate for sex, and someone of the, well, "wrong" gender offered it ... well, no offense to anyone but, to put it delicately, I think I'd wind up still desperate for sex. I mean, if all you want is to get your gun off, do you even really need another person at all? (Sorry, I guess that's not all that delicate.)


I'd probably end up "still desperate" myself, too, and of course you don't need someone else just to make your gun go off, but I also know guys--guys much older than age 20--who constantly whine about "not getting any" and not being content with taking matters into their own hands. I don't know what to say to them. Usually I just want to slap them and tell them to go jerk off and get over it.  :laugh:

Quote
On the other hand, it's possible that, as a typical woman, I'm less desperate for sex in general than the early-20s man. Either that, or more self-sufficient!  :laugh:

Wait till your boys are Jack's age. ...  8)

Quote
You and I have discussed this before, Jeff, but I'd be curious what other gay men have to say. Do y'all think the typical early-20-something gay guy would be happy, in a pinch, to get it wherever he can?

Maybe that's the key. I'm not sure Jack in that scene should be judged on the basis of "the typical early-20-something gay guy." A 20-year-old who came out early and was adjusted and content in his sexual orientation would probably not have gotten into that car with Lureen in the first place. A 20-year-old who was trying to repress his sexual orientation to fit in to society, or who was still a little confused and grappling with his sexual orientation, or who simply was in denial--none of which may apply to Jack Twist in 1966--might, caught up in the heat of the moment, be perfectly happy to be getting it on--or off--with Lureen.
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #107 on: January 21, 2008, 11:58:25 pm »
I think how one perceives Jack's reactions in the back of the car, just goes right back into the never-ending debate about whether Jack is bisexual or really entirely gay.  If a viewer thinks he's bisexual they'll see it one way... and if they thinks he's gay they'll see it another way.

It all boils down to nuanced personal interpretations of things like facial expression.  Really, the debate could truly be endless...





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Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #108 on: January 22, 2008, 12:09:58 am »
Thanks to all of you!!

To me, in this stage of the game, indeed Lureen is pregnant when she meets Jack; that is evident!!

I can NOT refrain from saying that Lureen is lesbian, since that colours her life, and others!!

Her being lesbian is intertwine in many ways, with Jack and with others, I say; that I can not help but continue to awaken hopefully some of you on that!!

Since I must rush, more later. I do need help to think and maybe proof with your thoughts about Lureen being lesbian on my aformentioned thread as such.

Hugs!!

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #109 on: January 22, 2008, 02:37:10 am »

I can NOT refrain from saying that Lureen is lesbian, since that colours her life, and others!!



You do not need to refrain from saying so, you can discuss this topic as long as you want - at the appropriate thread, which is here:
http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,16321.0.html

But please stop to repeat the same thing again and again all over the forum.
Please see also my explaining PM to you.

Thanks!

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #110 on: January 22, 2008, 10:29:19 am »
I think how one perceives Jack's reactions in the back of the car, just goes right back into the never-ending debate about whether Jack is bisexual or really entirely gay.  If a viewer thinks he's bisexual they'll see it one way... and if they thinks he's gay they'll see it another way.

It all boils down to nuanced personal interpretations of things like facial expression.  Really, the debate could truly be endless...

I guess discussing Jack's sexual orientation is really OT for a thread about whether or not Lureen was pregnant, but as I read the above it occurred to me that there might also be a sort-of third option in addition to "bisexual" or "entirely gay," and that might be that Jack's sexual orientation evolves, or moves along the spectrum, as he ages, so that Jack at age 39, when his marriage has apparently gone pretty sour, might be "entirely gay," whereas Jack at age 20 maybe wasn't.

I guess I'm just wondering if perhaps for some people sexual orientation isn't necessarily "fixed" once for all but may change over time.
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #111 on: January 22, 2008, 10:33:55 am »
I guess I'm just wondering if perhaps for some people sexual orientation isn't necessarily "fixed" once for all but may change over time.

That could be.

Also, at 20 Jack didn't have Ennis in his life. Reestablishing his relationship with Ennis (not to mention Mexican prostitutes and Randall) may have made him "more gay."

I can't imagine Jack, going into Mexico, striking out with male prostitutes for some reason, saying, "Oh well!" and going for a female prostitute instead. Or taking up with LaShawn when Randall wasn't in town.

(But then again, I still think he was faking with Lureen!  ;))


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #112 on: January 22, 2008, 10:44:50 am »
(But then again, I still think he was faking with Lureen!  ;))

You think Ennis was faking it with Alma in the sledding scene?

(OK, OK, I'm guessing that scene was actually filmed  after Heath and Michelle already had something going. You can't fake the look on Ennis's face in that scene. Not even Heath is that good of an actor.)
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #113 on: January 22, 2008, 11:11:11 am »
Jeff, I think the suggestion that Jack's sexuality shifts over time makes good sense.  And, it is true as Katherine notes, that as far as he knew, Ennis was out of his life at the time that he met Lureen.

I still think that Jack was a bit caught up in Lureen's own excitement and momentum in the car scene.  My sense is that Jake is trying to convey a level of genuine surprise and maybe a little anxiety in his voice and facial expression during the car scene.  I always feel like Jack seems a bit overwhelmed. 

That said, Jack definitely seems more enthusiastic with Lureen than Ennis ever does with Alma (except for maybe the sledding scene that Jeff mentions).

Yes, Ennis is having fun sledding with Alma.   But sledding's not the same thing as having sex.  Ennis never seems to be super happy about sex or even kissing with Alma.  The wedding kiss seems incredibly awkward to me, and needless to say their encounters in bed that we see seem pretty dreadful.


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Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #114 on: January 22, 2008, 11:41:57 am »
Yes, Ennis is having fun sledding with Alma.   But sledding's not the same thing as having sex.  Ennis never seems to be super happy about sex or even kissing with Alma.  The wedding kiss seems incredibly awkward to me, and needless to say their encounters in bed that we see seem pretty dreadful.

That's exactly what I was going to say! (Well, pretty close, anyway.  :))

I think Ennis feels genuine affection for Alma. And I can imagine two Platonic friends who feel affectionate toward each other behaving pretty much that same way on a fun sledding outing. So no need to fake anything there.

But I do think he's faking it when they're in the bedroom together.


Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #115 on: January 22, 2008, 12:26:55 pm »
 :laugh: :laugh:

It just occurs to me... re-reading the last few posts that, "sledding's not the same thing as having sex" is a pretty ridiculous phrase.  I love how BBM discussions bring things like this out sometimes.

 :laugh:

Anyway, yes, I think Ennis genuninely feels affection for Alma.  But, I think the concept of a Platonic type of love or affection may be very accurate in describing his feelings for her.

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #116 on: January 22, 2008, 12:31:43 pm »
It just occurs to me... re-reading the last few posts that, "sledding's not the same thing as having sex" is a pretty ridiculous phrase.  I love how BBM discussions bring things like this out sometimes.

 :laugh:

Looked like some tough sledding for Ennis in the bedroom.




Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #117 on: January 22, 2008, 01:00:29 pm »
I still think that Jack was a bit caught up in Lureen's own excitement and momentum in the car scene.  My sense is that Jake is trying to convey a level of genuine surprise and maybe a little anxiety in his voice and facial expression during the car scene.  I always feel like Jack seems a bit overwhelmed.

I agree. I just don't think the surprise and anxiety indicate that he's faking or not liking what direction she's going.

Quote
That said, Jack definitely seems more enthusiastic with Lureen than Ennis ever does with Alma (except for maybe the sledding scene that Jeff mentions).

Yes, Ennis is having fun sledding with Alma.   But sledding's not the same thing as having sex.  Ennis never seems to be super happy about sex or even kissing with Alma.  The wedding kiss seems incredibly awkward to me, and needless to say their encounters in bed that we see seem pretty dreadful.

No, sledding isn't the same thing as having sex (Maybe it is?  :laugh: ). But that's not quite what I meant. Except for the time that Ennis comes out on the landing and looks down at Jack in the parking lot, I think the sledding scene is the most genuinely happy look we see on Ennis in the film. He's not just having a good time with a platonic affection. He's in love (which is why I say I guess the scene was filmed after Heath and Michelle had something going).

Looked like some tough sledding for Ennis in the bedroom.

Tougher for Alma. Let's not forget what we see Ennis doing to her.  ::)
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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #118 on: January 22, 2008, 01:18:43 pm »
I guess I'm just wondering if perhaps for some people sexual orientation isn't necessarily "fixed" once for all but may change over time.
I think this is uncommon, but I do believe it happens sometimes. Former porn star and performance artist Annie Sprinkle is a good example of this. When she first became sexually active and involved in the sex industry, she was primarily interested in men, and though she performed sex acts with other women as part of her job, she writes that her heart was never in it. Today, she is overwhelmingly attracted to women, has a life partner who is a woman, and focuses primarily on women as her artistic collaborators and as her potential audience.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #119 on: January 22, 2008, 01:26:19 pm »

No, sledding isn't the same thing as having sex (Maybe it is?  :laugh: ). But that's not quite what I meant. Except for the time that Ennis comes out on the landing and looks down at Jack in the parking lot, I think the sledding scene is the most genuinely happy look we see on Ennis in the film. He's not just having a good time with a platonic affection. He's in love


Well, I think a person can be really, truly genuininely happy in a state of platonic love.  I think platonic love can be blissful.  And, I do think Ennis loves Alma... in his own way.

I still think Ennis is having fun sledding.... but I don't know how this reflects the degree of his sexual attraction to Alma. 

Based on the actual sexual moments we witness between them, he seems pretty unhappy... has to visualize Jack (that's how I interpret the cut to the bull-riding during Ennis's early sex scene with Alma)... and of course, it's pretty awful for Alma herself.

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Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #120 on: January 22, 2008, 02:30:42 pm »

Well, I think a person can be really, truly genuininely happy in a state of platonic love.  I think platonic love can be blissful.  And, I do think Ennis loves Alma... in his own way.

Tell you what, when you consider what we know of Ennis's father, and that he was young when both his parents died, I'm not exactly sure Ennis really knows what it's like to some someone--until he finds the shirts.  :-\

Quote
I still think Ennis is having fun sledding.... but I don't know how this reflects the degree of his sexual attraction to Alma.

What it shows, I think is that he is in love with her--and he's not "faking it," just as Jack isn't faking it in the back seat with Lureen.

Quote
Based on the actual sexual moments we witness between them, he seems pretty unhappy... has to visualize Jack (that's how I interpret the cut to the bull-riding during Ennis's early sex scene with Alma)... and of course, it's pretty awful for Alma herself.

I think that cut is just a very subtle visual joke--from Ennis "riding" Alma to Jack riding a bull--that doesn't say anything about what's going on in Ennis's mind when he does what he prefers with Alma. Of course, anyone is free to imagine that it does say something about Ennis's state of mind. ...  ;)

But I guess we've wandered pretty far afield from questons of Lureen's pregancy, haven't we?  :laugh:
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #121 on: January 22, 2008, 03:05:24 pm »

What it shows, I think is that he is in love with her--and he's not "faking it," just as Jack isn't faking it in the back seat with Lureen.

I think that cut is just a very subtle visual joke--from Ennis "riding" Alma to Jack riding a bull--that doesn't say anything about what's going on in Ennis's mind when he does what he prefers with Alma. Of course, anyone is free to imagine that it does say something about Ennis's state of mind. ...  ;)

But I guess we've wandered pretty far afield from questons of Lureen's pregancy, haven't we?  :laugh:

Yeah, you're right that we've wandered a bit OT.  I think for some of these things, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I do think the cut to the bull-riding is meant to be a "joke" (a really sad/mean joke) or at least a pun... and I also think it's meant to represent what's going on in Ennis's mind.  I think it's meant to function as a montage that way.

But, again, it's fine to disagree about these things.  There are certainly multiple ways to read some of these issues in BBM.

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #122 on: January 22, 2008, 03:17:46 pm »
But, again, it's fine to disagree about these things.  There are certainly multiple ways to read some of these issues in BBM.

Sure enough. If we haven't convinced each other by now, we probably never will.  ;D

Still, it's fun to go back to these debates now and then.


Offline southendmd

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #123 on: January 22, 2008, 04:24:57 pm »
A couple of thoughts:

I don't believe Lureen was pregnant at all.  I believe post-mountain, post-Jimbo-rejection Jack is counting his blessings that a rich girl is showing him attention.  For him, Ennis is gone, flirting with cowboys or clowns is dangerous, and he is "starving", literally and figuratively.  The backseat is his ticket out of misery, so he goes for it, perhaps engaging in self-deception for survival.  But, Lureen is "on top". 

I believe we're meant to see that as Bobby's conception.  We all know there are lots of problems with the time-line, and I think this is one of them. 

My very first impression of the happy sledding scene was how much Alma in her fleecy cap looks like Jack.  Ennis even "wrestles" a bit with her, on a hill... sound familiar? 

The "Alma flip" into bull-riding scene I thought showed a naughty Ang, but also reminded me of the line in the story "...Jack, who had been riding more than bulls..."

Not sure if Ennis's relations with Alma represent self-deception.  Again, I think of the story:  "I like doin it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin like this."

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #124 on: January 22, 2008, 04:36:20 pm »
Flirting with ...  clowns is dangerous.

Flirting with clowns is never wise. Unfortunately, there are an awful lot of them out there.

 ;)

Sorry. ... Couldn't resist. ...
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #125 on: January 22, 2008, 04:38:38 pm »
Not sure if Ennis's relations with Alma represent self-deception.  Again, I think of the story:  "I like doin it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin like this."

I've always thought Story Ennis was engaging in a little self-deception (or at least Jack-deception) when he said this.

Or maybe Story Ennis likes doin it with women the way Jeff thinks Jack liked doin it with Lureen in the back seat. Whatever gets your gun off ...

 ::)


Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #126 on: January 22, 2008, 05:23:23 pm »
Not sure if Ennis's relations with Alma represent self-deception.  Again, I think of the story:  "I like doin it with women, yeah, but Jesus H., ain't nothin like this."

I've always thought Story Ennis was engaging in a little self-deception (or at least Jack-deception) when he said this.

Or maybe Story Ennis likes doin it with women the way Jeff thinks Jack liked doin it with Lureen in the back seat. Whatever gets your gun off ...

Or maybe Ennis isn't deceiving himself and just means that he finds poking Jack's backside more physically pleasurable than poking a woman.

Sorry if that's vulgar. ...  :-\
"It is required of every man that the spirit within him should walk abroad among his fellow-men, and travel far and wide."--Charles Dickens.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #127 on: January 22, 2008, 05:29:37 pm »
I believe we're meant to see that as Bobby's conception.  We all know there are lots of problems with the time-line, and I think this is one of them. 

I absolutely agree with this.  It seems to me that we're supposed to think the car scene is/could-be Bobby's conception.  And, I also think that the whole confusion over the pregnancy timeline really is just a goof.... one of many in the timeline within the film.

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #128 on: January 22, 2008, 05:35:22 pm »
Or maybe Ennis isn't deceiving himself and just means that he finds poking Jack's backside more physically pleasurable than poking a woman.

I'm no expert, but given male and female physiological similarities I would guess the difference in pleasure between those particular options might be less physical than mental.

As far as whether he's deceiving himself, I guess it's another one of those things we can't solve. I think he's saying that he likes doin it with women just because he believes he's expected to like doin it with women.


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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #129 on: January 22, 2008, 05:48:14 pm »
As far as whether he's deceiving himself, I guess it's another one of those things we can't solve. I think he's saying that he likes doin it with women just because he believes he's expected to like doin it with women.
And did Ennis ever truly have sex with a woman other than Alma by the time he made this statement? In the film, he tells Jack that he has never had the opportunity before their fateful tryst. In the short story, when said tryst commences, we read that there was no instruction manual but none was needed as Ennis penetrated Jack--suggesting that this may well be Ennis's very first sexual experience.

So by the time of the motel conversation, Ennis's carnal knowledge of women may very well have been limited to Alma, yet he refers to "women", perhaps to emphasize his alleged "masculinity" in his male friend's eyes.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #130 on: February 05, 2008, 09:38:07 pm »

Sorry, I'm late to this conversation, and haven't read through all the pages, so I'm just going to answer the OP.

The timeline of the movie allows that Lureen may have been, but since the writers stuck very closely to the short story when doing the screenplay, and there was never a whisper of doubt of the paternity of Jack's son in the story, I say no.

Offline brokebackjack

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #131 on: September 02, 2008, 12:09:45 am »
and I still think bobby was jack's son.
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Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #132 on: September 03, 2008, 12:00:11 am »
Merci brokebackjack !

Why do you think that?

Au revoir,
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Offline brokebackjack

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #133 on: September 03, 2008, 03:00:51 am »
There is nothing within the short story, on any reading, to indicate he wasn't Jack's son. It implies the opposite...while of course stating very little lol
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Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #134 on: September 06, 2008, 11:36:56 pm »
Yes, of course Lureen was pregnant... BEFORE she met him! It stands to reason... that she was!

Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #135 on: September 07, 2008, 06:51:03 pm »
There is nothing within the short story, on any reading, to indicate he wasn't Jack's son. It implies the opposite...while of course stating very little lol

in the ss you are correct, nothing is mentioned in the ss that implies Bobby is not Jack's son. But in the film there is the inconvenient matter of the date on the fairgrounds announcer booth the day that Jack met Lureen, and coupled later with how old Jack stated that Bobby was when Jack reunioned with Ennis in Sept 1967.

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #136 on: September 07, 2008, 07:31:35 pm »
Merci brokeplex!

Your post brings up good points... as likely proofs!

May I add also looks that Lureen provides could be such points too ??

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Offline brokebackjack

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #137 on: September 07, 2008, 10:03:29 pm »
It's possible...but I just don't buy it.

Lureen found Jack to be the love of her life. She MAY have been pregnant but aside from the date within the film....


Remember too, the film is one of the few scripts which managed to adhere so closely to it's original 'print' story.
"I couldn't stand it no more so i fixed it"

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #138 on: September 07, 2008, 11:35:22 pm »
It's possible...but I just don't buy it.

Lureen found Jack to be the love of her life. She MAY have been pregnant but aside from the date within the film....


Remember too, the film is one of the few scripts which managed to adhere so closely to it's original 'print' story.

I agree, there is nothing in the S.S  to suggest it. I know the film introduces us to that possibility,but I have searched for evidence in the story and just cannot see any.
Proulx does leave the reader to come to their own conclusion regarding some things.Probably in line with her, a story is not finished until it is read idea.That being the case I feel she would have introduced some ambiguity in the story if it as an element she wanted the reader to question.
I suppose maybe the film and ss have to be treated as separate entities,but why would there be such a major difference between the 2.

Offline brokebackjack

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #139 on: September 08, 2008, 12:02:11 am »
I think ambiguousity is the hallmark of BOTH film and SS, so if there are those who can reach the author's ultimate goal by believing Lureen was pregnant by someone other then Jack, why not?

I don't, however. As played by Anne Hathaway, Lureen became a bitter disappointed woman, ravaged by her relationship with Jack. He was the love of her life, and could not give her what she was willing to give to HIM.

In the ss, we are given a far-sparer report, indeed almost nothing...one reason Annie Proulx herself said film could be a more effective medium then print. Diana Ossana fleshed out that character for the film, not Annie, although Annie was kept informed and in tandem, step by step.

I may be wrong but deduce from AP's enthusiastic approval that she felt the character of Lureen was true to her own vision. After all, she WAS crazy about that interpretation of Lureen!
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Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #140 on: September 08, 2008, 02:20:03 am »
Here's a post by GuyMadison, a regular poster on imdb, arguing that Lureen was already pregnant. I find it, if not convincing beyond a shadow of doubt, at least very compelling:



by GuyMadison    (Wed Aug 20 2008 19:52:30)    
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As requested…


Bobby the Bastard


The short story and the film are two separate entities. However, they work together well most of the time. Reading has helped us understand the film and viewing has helped us understand the short story. For example, the film does not come out and say that our boys never returned to Brokeback. But the short story does. There is nothing in the film to contradict this, so just because the film doesn’t come out and say it, we can meld it into our understanding of the film without worry and with confidence because there is nothing in the film to contradict this. The reason that this fact is in the short story is a major part of the theme, therefore it should be included in our understanding of the film – unless the film makes a major veer off of this thematic road, which it does not.

Sometimes specifics were actually changed. For example, Francine became “Jenny.” I don’t know why this was done, but I like to think it’s because Jack + Ennis = Jenni or “Jenny.” I have no reason to see this as a significant change so I don’t look into it beyond what I just did here.

But sometimes a change was significant. The topic of late has been Lee’s inclusion of a SNIT when there was no SNIT in the short story. This is significant because it apparently changes the characterization of Ennis and of their relationship. However, as we have been discussing, it could also be a furthering of their characterizations rather than an actual change. It could have its moment of foreshadowing or it could simply be an extra example that gives us a better understanding of what was felt in the Dozy Embrace.

So we take the short story and film and we try to work them together as best we can.

This time is not one of them. [[laugh]]

The reason that this is not a time to fit the short story and film together is because I believe that Lureen already being pregnant when she first met Jack is a deliberate change that Lee “subliminally” put in and that he had a reason for it. So, while I believe that film-Lureen was already pregnant when she met Jack, I see no evidence of story-Lureen being pregnant when she met Jack and see no reason to try and take this aspect of the film and work it into the story – specifically because I believe it was NOT intended for the short story AND it WAS intended for the film. So from this point on, it’s all about the film. And, when I say “Lee,” I mean Lee and/or his team.

Here’s the case for it:

The sequence of scenes that are relevant is:

Ennis and Alma at the July 4th fireworks
Lureen’s and Jack’s rodeo rides – in the bar – in the car
Ennis and Alma in the grocery store
Jack and Lureen and Bobby in the bedroom
Ennis receives the first postcard – Ennis sends his reply
The Reunion scenes

All of these scenes are chronological. We are clued into this by the fact that the only scenes in the film that are out of chronological sequence are clearly shown as being out of chronological sequence (Ennis describing the past event of Earl’s death, Jack’s memory of the Dozy Embrace, Ennis’ vision of Jack’s death).

Additionally, these scenes give specific transition-stamps, one to the next. Ennis and Alma at the July 4th fireworks – ends with a blaze of fireworks and loud popping sounds – this transitions visually and aurally into Lureen’s rodeo ride with Lureen racing in in a blaze of red, fiery speed with popping sounds (sounds like cap guns to me and the horse’s hoof sounds). Then the bar scene and then the car scene. Here we know that these scenes are chronological. The bar scene, where they first met and talked, has to come after the rodeo rides where they first see each other, and it has to come before the car scene because they have to see each other and meet and talk in order to end up in the car. We are given a clue that all of these Jack+Lureen scenes are the same day because they are wearing the same clothes throughout.

So we now have Jack and Lureen in the car and she’s in a “hurry.” This is the transition stamp into the next scene, Ennis and Alma in the grocery store, where Alma says “Hi honey. What’re you all doing here?” and Ennis responds, “Oh, in a big hurry.” And, Ennis entered this scene by driving up in his truck, in a hurry. This scene ends with Alma (mother) telling Alma (daughter) “Alma, come with me. Alma!” and taking her hand.

This transitions into the next scene in Lureen’s bedroom with the initial camera focus being on Lureen playing with Bobby’s hand.

So all of these scenes are visually and aurally transitioned and chronological. After this come the scenes where Ennis gets the postcard, replies, and the reunion. These three scenes are obviously in chronological order since Ennis has to receive the postcard before he can reply to it and this exchange has to take place before the reunion can take place. These three scenes are also obviously chronologically after the group of scenes I described above (the Fourth of July through the Lureen Bedroom scene) because Jack had to have met Lureen and Bobby had to have been born in order for Jack to talk about Bobby at the Reunion scene.

So, all of these scenes are chronological. And, Lee gave us dates or timestamps for these events:

The fireworks scene was on July 4, 1966 – we know this because we hear the announcer announce the full date – month, day and year.

The day Jack and Lureen met was between August 7-14 – we know this because there is a banner up in the rodeo arena as Lureen rides that reads “CHILDRESS COUNTY FAIR & RODEO”, “4th ANNUAL”, “AUG 7 RODEO AUG 14”. Because we know that this scene comes after the Fourth of July scene, which was 1966, this scene must be either August 1966 or August 1967 – it has to come before the reunion in September 1967. If it were 1967, then Jack would have met Lureen a month before the reunion. It has to be August 7-14, 1966.

We know that the Reunion scene occurred on September 24, 1967 because Jack’s postcard said he was coming through on the 24th and the postmark on the card is September 1967.

Now, the whole point of “was Lureen already pregnant?” boils down to Bobby’s age at the Reunion scene compared to when Jack and Lureen first met. In order for Jack to be Bobby’s biological father, we need more time between conception and the Reunion, not less. Less time would work in favor of Jack not being Bobby’s father. So, I will give the benefit of the doubt in favor of more time.

At the reunion, in the kitchen, Jack said that his “kid” is 8 months old. This could mean exactly 8 months old on September 24, or it could mean 8 months and 30 days old, almost nine months. But, the more age that we give to Bobby, the more we strengthen the argument that Jack is not Bobby’s biological father. So, to give Jack all the credit I can, I’ll allow that Bobby was exactly eight months old on September 24.

So we now count backwards eight months. There is no indication that Lureen’s pregnancy was not a normal nine-month pregnancy and to bring this possibility in would be a definite use of old Occam’s Razor – and I’ll discuss OR later. Going back eight months we see that Bobby was born around January 24, 1967. He could not have been born later because then Jack would be incorrect in saying that he was eight months old. If he were born earlier, this would give even less time for Lureen’s pregnancy and this would support Jack not being Bobby’s biological father.

So, to find out when Bobby was conceived, we have to count backwards nine months. April 1966.

But Jack and Lureen first met between August 7 and 14 of 1966. That’s a four-month difference.

Conclusion: Jack could not have been Bobby’s biological father.


Now the big argument against this.

It’s a simple production continuity error that was missed by Lee and his team and simply deserves its place on the “goofs” page.

I strongly disagree. The scenes are in sequence and they are chronological. They transition into each other. The dates are clearly given. Nowhere else in the entire film are so many scenes clearly date-stamped as this sequence of scenes is. Lee did not have to have an announcer tell us it was “July 4, 1966.” We could have figured out it was a July 4th celebration just from the evening fireworks. Or it could have been Memorial Day and this would have given Jack more time to be Bobby’s father. Or, Lee could have removed Jenny and the announcement and it could have been July 1965. But the announcement is specifically in there. And, it even gives us the year. In fact, the most clearly heard thing from the announcer is “1966.” Lee did not have to have a banner up showing us the date of the rodeo rides. But he did. And he had the camera focus on it twice. Why didn’t we simply hear the announcer’s voice as we did during Lureen’s ride? Why did we have to see the banner – twice? He could have simply had the announcer’s audio without the visual as was done in the Fourth of July scene. But he didn’t. These two scenes are specifically date-stamped for us. Lee is known for his attention to detail. Yes, some things slip by like a disappearing log. However, the disappearing log has no import at all that I can figure out. This one does. Lee and his team would have known that people would check out dates and do some math. It is done all the time by viewers of movies who like to find goofs. Yet, he left those date-stamps in there. Now, without a reason for it, I could cop to the “goof” theory. But I believe there is a reason for it: To soften the short story’s characterization of Jack.

In the short story, Jack is a lot rougher – “rough-mannered, rough-spoken, inured to the stoic life.” He could “whip babies.” This is not just “an expression.” It’s a statement about Jack’s character with regard to the notion of “family” that runs throughout the short story – “babies” prevent gay men from being “a family.” Jack was ready, willing, and able to leave both his wife and son behind in the short story. And this carried over to the film. It had to. He was the willing one and Ennis was not. They both had families. One was willing to leave them, the other was not. (So it’s ironic that Ennis lost his family (yet again) and Jack did not. It’s ironic that Jack’s two families – Lureen/Bobby and his folks – each lost Jack.)

This is why I believe that Lee deliberately put those dates in and left them in. It softens Jack’s character’s willingness to leave his family in Texas. If Jack was not Bobby’s biological father and married Lureen thinking he had gotten her pregnant (and then figuring out later that he hadn’t) or married Lureen knowing she was pregnant, then it would not seem so callous of Jack to leave them behind. Now we can argue the relative moralities at work here, but this is not the point. The point is that there is “an out” for Jack, regardless whether we like it or agree with it or whether it softens him for us individually. At the Reunion scene, Jack had known Lureen for about a year and had been with Bobby for about 8 months. It was sometime soon after Bobby’s birth that we saw Jack musing over his life with Lureen and Bobby and without Ennis (his look as he exits the bedroom, in a state of familial disconnect, leaving the Newsome family in their completeness). Then he contacted Ennis. He realized his mistake or his misstep or he felt regret or some such thing and he was ready, willing, and able to leave Lureen and Bobby for Ennis. The notion that Jack was not biologically connected to Bobby makes Jack’s character a little softer, a little more understandable, a little more likeable(??). He was disconnected from the Newsome family by education, by money, and by blood. This is why I believe that Lee put this in, sort of subliminally, such that people could figure it out and come to their own conclusions. It doesn’t have to be spelled out for us. After all, Jack and Ennis never said, out loud, that they loved each other, yet we know from other elements that they did.

This is much like the SNIT. I am certain that I remember reading an interview in which Lee said that he added the SNIT (not in the short story) in order to show a tenderness to their relationship earlier on in the narrative than Proulx did. Same for the Tractor Riding Scene. Jack had complained that his father had never taught him a thing and hadn’t come to see him ride and so Lee put in a scene where Jack is teaching Bobby “how to ride” (albeit, a tractor). These are filmic choices with an eye to the audience and their perceptions. I believe that he did the same thing with Lureen and Bobby.

Subtle elements such as this are all over the film for us to pick up and make some deductions about. For example, in the Yee-Haw scene, Ennis tells Jack that that’s the most he’s spoken in a year. It’s a funny, cute line. They sort of giggle, but then the smiles fade. It’s sad to think that Ennis’ life was lonely and that that is the most he’s spoken in a year. But, from this detail that’s given to us, we can deduce another detail. Ennis was in a relationship with Alma during the previous year and yet, his time with Jack is when he spoke the most in the last year. This gives us greater understanding of the relationship between Alma and Ennis both at the time of the Yee-Haw scene and later in the film.

Why didn’t he just have Lureen be obviously pregnant? That would then require all kinds of other elements to be thrown into the narrative to explain why Jack would want to have sex with her and then marry her.

The notion of Lureen being pregnant also aids the story in that people have questioned why a college-educated, monied young girl would want to have sex with and marry Jack. It also aids the story of why L.D. (who hated Jack’s guts) would allow his daughter to marry Jack. Yes, these are still true if Jack had knocked up Lureen. But, then we don’t have the character softening of Jack and we have to then accept that the date-stamps were just a big, colossal goof.

There is other evidence in favor of the theory: Lureen was in a hurry – sure, she said it was about her daddy and the car, but we all know that lines in the film have more significant meanings imbedded into them. She also was the one to ask about putting the brakes on, but that was a calculated “I’m so sweet and innocent” moment. She knew full well that no rough-and-ready cowboy was going to turn down the chance to get into her Wranglers – boy! did she know… she’s been in that backseat before. If she knew she was pregnant, she was in a hurry to get a husband and father for her baby. Pregnancy out of wedlock for her, and especially for someone like her in her position and with the father she had, would have been an ultimate disgrace. She needed a Jack.

After his failure with the rodeo clown there may have been rumors going around about Jack. This is further evidenced later by the old farmers’ pissant conversation. He was driving grooves around Texas, nearly starving… Jack needed a Lureen.

And so they came together on metal and their marriage was a mutually-beneficial business operation. Why didn’t go-after-what-she-wants Lureen divorce Jack when he hadn’t been, ahem, dancing with her? She was in a loveless marriage that she helped to create.

Additionally, after each encounter with Ennis, subsequent to the Reunion scenes, we see Jack bonding with or caring about Bobby more. In the Blue Parka scene, Jack brings up Bobby and his need of a tutor. The Tractor Riding Scene is where we first see Jack bonding with Bobby. This comes after Jack first learns of Ennis’ intransigence (at the River Reunion scene). And then, at the Twist Family Thanksgiving scene, we see Jack take actual ownership of the relationship: “This is my house! This is my child! And you are my guest!” Note that in Ennis’ kitchen, Jack merely referred to Bobby by saying “I got a kid.”

Another argument I have heard against this theory is that Jack was simply flustered at seeing Ennis again after four years at the reunion and he got confused when he stated Bobby’s age. I find no validity in this. A father with an eight-month old baby gets it wrong? By four months? He made his son four months older? Every parent I’ve known could tell you exactly how many weeks old the kid was through the first year. Every parent has to tell some quizzical person this every day as they goo and gah over the little rascal. He had enough consciousness to hear the child’s cry... even though he was probably used to hearing that sound 24/7 from Bobby... and question it, with a contextually accurate question. He remembered Lureen’s name. He was self-aware enough to mention he has a kid. He mentioned the age when Ennis did not. Jack is characterized as being more emotionally-controlled than Ennis in emotional situations. He was able to embellish his comment on Lureen... prettiest girl... But he gets his son’s age wrong by four months?

Another argument against the theory is that Lureen didn’t look four months pregnant when she met Jack. However, this does not mean that she was not four months pregnant. It is not at all uncommon for a woman of Lureen’s size and body shape to not start showing until five or even six months along – six is pushing it, but it does happen. Also, what of Lureen rodeoing if she knew she was four months along? She’s a woman driven toward her goals. She wanted to be in the rodeo and to win it and nothing was going to stop her. Or, she could have been acting recklessly in the hope of a miscarriage. Why was she drinking in the bar? Back then, pregnant women drank. Now, these are areas where Occam’s Razor comes into play. However, just as my answers invoke Occam, Occam was invoked by the questions themselves. While it is nice to tie up all of our notions of what may seem unusual in the characters’ characterizations, the questions need not be asked and answered in order to come to a conclusion about Lureen. If Lee put it in deliberately and if he had a reason to do so (soften), then Lureen’s actions are, quite simply, “Lureen.” (By the way… could the fact that she was drinking while pregnant explain Bobby’s dyslexia? [[laugh]] )


Now, here’s the deal… This whole thing is NOT necessary for the film. It is NOT a new plotline. All that it is is a subtle characterization softening for Jack’s character’s willingness to leave Lureen and Bobby so easily. Just as Ennis’ and Jack’s relationship was softened by the SNIT and just as Jack’s short-story comments about not wanting any kids at all or being willing to whip babies are softened by the Blue Parka, Tractor Riding, and Twist Family Thanksgiving scenes. It simply makes Jack’s willingness to abandon Lureen and an eight-month old baby more understandable – NOT more agreeable – more understandable from Jack’s point of view... character development.

In the final analysis, either she was pregnant or Lee goofed.

But…

We didn’t NEED to hear the date of the fireworks. We didn’t NEED to see the month and days of the rodeo. We have no reason to need to know when Jack and Lureen met and got married. It was obviously after the mountain time and before the reunion. We didn’t NEED to hear Jack tell us Bobby’s age. He could have said a million other things about Bobby. Ennis didn’t tell Jack the ages of his daughters. And yet, we are specifically and obviously told the dates of the fireworks, the rodeo, and Bobby’s age in a way that we are not anywhere else in the film.

Thus, Bobby the bastard.




Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #141 on: September 08, 2008, 06:09:05 am »
Wow.....what a well written and well analysed post that was by Guy Madison.

I have always thought that Bobby was Jack's son, but on reading this, it is hard to argue with what he says. He definately gives evidence and explanation to his conclusion, that Laureen WAS pregnant when she met Jack.
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It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #142 on: September 08, 2008, 10:16:22 am »
I think ambiguousity is the hallmark of BOTH film and SS, so if there are those who can reach the author's ultimate goal by believing Lureen was pregnant by someone other then Jack, why not?

I don't, however. As played by Anne Hathaway, Lureen became a bitter disappointed woman, ravaged by her relationship with Jack. He was the love of her life, and could not give her what she was willing to give to HIM.

In the ss, we are given a far-sparer report, indeed almost nothing...one reason Annie Proulx herself said film could be a more effective medium then print. Diana Ossana fleshed out that character for the film, not Annie, although Annie was kept informed and in tandem, step by step.

I may be wrong but deduce from AP's enthusiastic approval that she felt the character of Lureen was true to her own vision. After all, she WAS crazy about that interpretation of Lureen!

I agree in that I do not think there is a right or wrong interpretation.It is up to each individual to put their own spin on it.Proulx treats us as grown ups who no longer need to be spoonfed, as does Ang.
One problem I have with Bobby not being Jacks son, is why Lureen seems so uninterested in him.It is almost as if, as her marriage deteriorates and she becomes more bitter,so she becomes more distant from her son.That would seem to indicate that she associates her son very closely with Jack.
I suppose another equally valid conclusion would be that, had she not been pregnant, she would not have married Jack and therefore not be in the situation she finds herself in.So her disinterest in her son is because of her sham of a marriage.
The only thing in the s.s that might fit with Bobby not being Jack's son, is when he is telling Ennis he never wanted kids.If he was that vehement about it, would he not have taken precautions.?
Like every other aspect of this film and story, I have now talked myself round full circle !!

Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #143 on: September 08, 2008, 10:23:52 am »
The only thing in the s.s that might fit with Bobby not being Jack's son, is when he is telling Ennis he never wanted kids.If he was that vehement about it, would he not have taken precautions.?
Like every other aspect of this film and story, I have now talked myself round full circle !!

Couldn't help but have a giggle to myself trying to picture Jack in the back of that car, with Laureens boobs flopping in his face, scrambling to find a condom in his wallet. I think he was probably more worried about finding the right part of Laureens anatomy, than finding a condom.  :o :o ::) ::)
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Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #144 on: September 08, 2008, 09:01:27 pm »
Didn't I always said that Lureen was pregnant BEFORE meeting Jack?

Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #145 on: September 09, 2008, 11:07:21 pm »
It's possible...but I just don't buy it.

Lureen found Jack to be the love of her life. She MAY have been pregnant but aside from the date within the film....


Remember too, the film is one of the few scripts which managed to adhere so closely to it's original 'print' story.

we have a differing impression of Lureen. I see both Jack and Lureen as manipulating and using each other for their own ends. Now in the case of Alma and her feelings for Ennis, yes! Ennis was the love of her life, and her bitterness lasted thru the years at the failure of her marriage to him. I don't see Lureen as being much upset about Jack, oh, of course she didn't want him to die, but I suspect Lureen moved on after her last conversation with Ennis about Jack.

your last line in your post brings up an interesting point about unintentional continuity errors. I think that we have all spotted them and there is an entire thread devoted to them, I love spotting errors in films. But, I don't think that the sign over the announcers booth is an error, like the hood at first not being completely closed on Jack's truck when the boys came down off the mountain and he drove off, or the block of wood mysteriously moving around when Jack was talking to Aguirre in the Uncle Harold scene. Those types of errors do not affect the nature of the film, but the sign over the announcers booth does, and I think that the crew on the film would have caught the error and changed it - if it wasn't intentional on the part of Ang Lee to leave it in. 

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #146 on: September 09, 2008, 11:14:59 pm »
Even if Lureen was pregnant by another man obviously, she wanted Jack and did catch him, by surprise in many ways!

That is one way, to me, that she is a lesbian, hiding it (maybe to herself) then, but likely not that long after or before her marriage to Jack, to him! May I go that far in thinking... maybe wishing ?

And, Lureen was obviously
sad of Jack's death, but was somewhat expecting it maybe - I'll say that too!

Au revoir,
hugs!