Author Topic: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?  (Read 46981 times)

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #140 on: September 08, 2008, 02:20:03 am »
Here's a post by GuyMadison, a regular poster on imdb, arguing that Lureen was already pregnant. I find it, if not convincing beyond a shadow of doubt, at least very compelling:



by GuyMadison    (Wed Aug 20 2008 19:52:30)    
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As requested…


Bobby the Bastard


The short story and the film are two separate entities. However, they work together well most of the time. Reading has helped us understand the film and viewing has helped us understand the short story. For example, the film does not come out and say that our boys never returned to Brokeback. But the short story does. There is nothing in the film to contradict this, so just because the film doesn’t come out and say it, we can meld it into our understanding of the film without worry and with confidence because there is nothing in the film to contradict this. The reason that this fact is in the short story is a major part of the theme, therefore it should be included in our understanding of the film – unless the film makes a major veer off of this thematic road, which it does not.

Sometimes specifics were actually changed. For example, Francine became “Jenny.” I don’t know why this was done, but I like to think it’s because Jack + Ennis = Jenni or “Jenny.” I have no reason to see this as a significant change so I don’t look into it beyond what I just did here.

But sometimes a change was significant. The topic of late has been Lee’s inclusion of a SNIT when there was no SNIT in the short story. This is significant because it apparently changes the characterization of Ennis and of their relationship. However, as we have been discussing, it could also be a furthering of their characterizations rather than an actual change. It could have its moment of foreshadowing or it could simply be an extra example that gives us a better understanding of what was felt in the Dozy Embrace.

So we take the short story and film and we try to work them together as best we can.

This time is not one of them. [[laugh]]

The reason that this is not a time to fit the short story and film together is because I believe that Lureen already being pregnant when she first met Jack is a deliberate change that Lee “subliminally” put in and that he had a reason for it. So, while I believe that film-Lureen was already pregnant when she met Jack, I see no evidence of story-Lureen being pregnant when she met Jack and see no reason to try and take this aspect of the film and work it into the story – specifically because I believe it was NOT intended for the short story AND it WAS intended for the film. So from this point on, it’s all about the film. And, when I say “Lee,” I mean Lee and/or his team.

Here’s the case for it:

The sequence of scenes that are relevant is:

Ennis and Alma at the July 4th fireworks
Lureen’s and Jack’s rodeo rides – in the bar – in the car
Ennis and Alma in the grocery store
Jack and Lureen and Bobby in the bedroom
Ennis receives the first postcard – Ennis sends his reply
The Reunion scenes

All of these scenes are chronological. We are clued into this by the fact that the only scenes in the film that are out of chronological sequence are clearly shown as being out of chronological sequence (Ennis describing the past event of Earl’s death, Jack’s memory of the Dozy Embrace, Ennis’ vision of Jack’s death).

Additionally, these scenes give specific transition-stamps, one to the next. Ennis and Alma at the July 4th fireworks – ends with a blaze of fireworks and loud popping sounds – this transitions visually and aurally into Lureen’s rodeo ride with Lureen racing in in a blaze of red, fiery speed with popping sounds (sounds like cap guns to me and the horse’s hoof sounds). Then the bar scene and then the car scene. Here we know that these scenes are chronological. The bar scene, where they first met and talked, has to come after the rodeo rides where they first see each other, and it has to come before the car scene because they have to see each other and meet and talk in order to end up in the car. We are given a clue that all of these Jack+Lureen scenes are the same day because they are wearing the same clothes throughout.

So we now have Jack and Lureen in the car and she’s in a “hurry.” This is the transition stamp into the next scene, Ennis and Alma in the grocery store, where Alma says “Hi honey. What’re you all doing here?” and Ennis responds, “Oh, in a big hurry.” And, Ennis entered this scene by driving up in his truck, in a hurry. This scene ends with Alma (mother) telling Alma (daughter) “Alma, come with me. Alma!” and taking her hand.

This transitions into the next scene in Lureen’s bedroom with the initial camera focus being on Lureen playing with Bobby’s hand.

So all of these scenes are visually and aurally transitioned and chronological. After this come the scenes where Ennis gets the postcard, replies, and the reunion. These three scenes are obviously in chronological order since Ennis has to receive the postcard before he can reply to it and this exchange has to take place before the reunion can take place. These three scenes are also obviously chronologically after the group of scenes I described above (the Fourth of July through the Lureen Bedroom scene) because Jack had to have met Lureen and Bobby had to have been born in order for Jack to talk about Bobby at the Reunion scene.

So, all of these scenes are chronological. And, Lee gave us dates or timestamps for these events:

The fireworks scene was on July 4, 1966 – we know this because we hear the announcer announce the full date – month, day and year.

The day Jack and Lureen met was between August 7-14 – we know this because there is a banner up in the rodeo arena as Lureen rides that reads “CHILDRESS COUNTY FAIR & RODEO”, “4th ANNUAL”, “AUG 7 RODEO AUG 14”. Because we know that this scene comes after the Fourth of July scene, which was 1966, this scene must be either August 1966 or August 1967 – it has to come before the reunion in September 1967. If it were 1967, then Jack would have met Lureen a month before the reunion. It has to be August 7-14, 1966.

We know that the Reunion scene occurred on September 24, 1967 because Jack’s postcard said he was coming through on the 24th and the postmark on the card is September 1967.

Now, the whole point of “was Lureen already pregnant?” boils down to Bobby’s age at the Reunion scene compared to when Jack and Lureen first met. In order for Jack to be Bobby’s biological father, we need more time between conception and the Reunion, not less. Less time would work in favor of Jack not being Bobby’s father. So, I will give the benefit of the doubt in favor of more time.

At the reunion, in the kitchen, Jack said that his “kid” is 8 months old. This could mean exactly 8 months old on September 24, or it could mean 8 months and 30 days old, almost nine months. But, the more age that we give to Bobby, the more we strengthen the argument that Jack is not Bobby’s biological father. So, to give Jack all the credit I can, I’ll allow that Bobby was exactly eight months old on September 24.

So we now count backwards eight months. There is no indication that Lureen’s pregnancy was not a normal nine-month pregnancy and to bring this possibility in would be a definite use of old Occam’s Razor – and I’ll discuss OR later. Going back eight months we see that Bobby was born around January 24, 1967. He could not have been born later because then Jack would be incorrect in saying that he was eight months old. If he were born earlier, this would give even less time for Lureen’s pregnancy and this would support Jack not being Bobby’s biological father.

So, to find out when Bobby was conceived, we have to count backwards nine months. April 1966.

But Jack and Lureen first met between August 7 and 14 of 1966. That’s a four-month difference.

Conclusion: Jack could not have been Bobby’s biological father.


Now the big argument against this.

It’s a simple production continuity error that was missed by Lee and his team and simply deserves its place on the “goofs” page.

I strongly disagree. The scenes are in sequence and they are chronological. They transition into each other. The dates are clearly given. Nowhere else in the entire film are so many scenes clearly date-stamped as this sequence of scenes is. Lee did not have to have an announcer tell us it was “July 4, 1966.” We could have figured out it was a July 4th celebration just from the evening fireworks. Or it could have been Memorial Day and this would have given Jack more time to be Bobby’s father. Or, Lee could have removed Jenny and the announcement and it could have been July 1965. But the announcement is specifically in there. And, it even gives us the year. In fact, the most clearly heard thing from the announcer is “1966.” Lee did not have to have a banner up showing us the date of the rodeo rides. But he did. And he had the camera focus on it twice. Why didn’t we simply hear the announcer’s voice as we did during Lureen’s ride? Why did we have to see the banner – twice? He could have simply had the announcer’s audio without the visual as was done in the Fourth of July scene. But he didn’t. These two scenes are specifically date-stamped for us. Lee is known for his attention to detail. Yes, some things slip by like a disappearing log. However, the disappearing log has no import at all that I can figure out. This one does. Lee and his team would have known that people would check out dates and do some math. It is done all the time by viewers of movies who like to find goofs. Yet, he left those date-stamps in there. Now, without a reason for it, I could cop to the “goof” theory. But I believe there is a reason for it: To soften the short story’s characterization of Jack.

In the short story, Jack is a lot rougher – “rough-mannered, rough-spoken, inured to the stoic life.” He could “whip babies.” This is not just “an expression.” It’s a statement about Jack’s character with regard to the notion of “family” that runs throughout the short story – “babies” prevent gay men from being “a family.” Jack was ready, willing, and able to leave both his wife and son behind in the short story. And this carried over to the film. It had to. He was the willing one and Ennis was not. They both had families. One was willing to leave them, the other was not. (So it’s ironic that Ennis lost his family (yet again) and Jack did not. It’s ironic that Jack’s two families – Lureen/Bobby and his folks – each lost Jack.)

This is why I believe that Lee deliberately put those dates in and left them in. It softens Jack’s character’s willingness to leave his family in Texas. If Jack was not Bobby’s biological father and married Lureen thinking he had gotten her pregnant (and then figuring out later that he hadn’t) or married Lureen knowing she was pregnant, then it would not seem so callous of Jack to leave them behind. Now we can argue the relative moralities at work here, but this is not the point. The point is that there is “an out” for Jack, regardless whether we like it or agree with it or whether it softens him for us individually. At the Reunion scene, Jack had known Lureen for about a year and had been with Bobby for about 8 months. It was sometime soon after Bobby’s birth that we saw Jack musing over his life with Lureen and Bobby and without Ennis (his look as he exits the bedroom, in a state of familial disconnect, leaving the Newsome family in their completeness). Then he contacted Ennis. He realized his mistake or his misstep or he felt regret or some such thing and he was ready, willing, and able to leave Lureen and Bobby for Ennis. The notion that Jack was not biologically connected to Bobby makes Jack’s character a little softer, a little more understandable, a little more likeable(??). He was disconnected from the Newsome family by education, by money, and by blood. This is why I believe that Lee put this in, sort of subliminally, such that people could figure it out and come to their own conclusions. It doesn’t have to be spelled out for us. After all, Jack and Ennis never said, out loud, that they loved each other, yet we know from other elements that they did.

This is much like the SNIT. I am certain that I remember reading an interview in which Lee said that he added the SNIT (not in the short story) in order to show a tenderness to their relationship earlier on in the narrative than Proulx did. Same for the Tractor Riding Scene. Jack had complained that his father had never taught him a thing and hadn’t come to see him ride and so Lee put in a scene where Jack is teaching Bobby “how to ride” (albeit, a tractor). These are filmic choices with an eye to the audience and their perceptions. I believe that he did the same thing with Lureen and Bobby.

Subtle elements such as this are all over the film for us to pick up and make some deductions about. For example, in the Yee-Haw scene, Ennis tells Jack that that’s the most he’s spoken in a year. It’s a funny, cute line. They sort of giggle, but then the smiles fade. It’s sad to think that Ennis’ life was lonely and that that is the most he’s spoken in a year. But, from this detail that’s given to us, we can deduce another detail. Ennis was in a relationship with Alma during the previous year and yet, his time with Jack is when he spoke the most in the last year. This gives us greater understanding of the relationship between Alma and Ennis both at the time of the Yee-Haw scene and later in the film.

Why didn’t he just have Lureen be obviously pregnant? That would then require all kinds of other elements to be thrown into the narrative to explain why Jack would want to have sex with her and then marry her.

The notion of Lureen being pregnant also aids the story in that people have questioned why a college-educated, monied young girl would want to have sex with and marry Jack. It also aids the story of why L.D. (who hated Jack’s guts) would allow his daughter to marry Jack. Yes, these are still true if Jack had knocked up Lureen. But, then we don’t have the character softening of Jack and we have to then accept that the date-stamps were just a big, colossal goof.

There is other evidence in favor of the theory: Lureen was in a hurry – sure, she said it was about her daddy and the car, but we all know that lines in the film have more significant meanings imbedded into them. She also was the one to ask about putting the brakes on, but that was a calculated “I’m so sweet and innocent” moment. She knew full well that no rough-and-ready cowboy was going to turn down the chance to get into her Wranglers – boy! did she know… she’s been in that backseat before. If she knew she was pregnant, she was in a hurry to get a husband and father for her baby. Pregnancy out of wedlock for her, and especially for someone like her in her position and with the father she had, would have been an ultimate disgrace. She needed a Jack.

After his failure with the rodeo clown there may have been rumors going around about Jack. This is further evidenced later by the old farmers’ pissant conversation. He was driving grooves around Texas, nearly starving… Jack needed a Lureen.

And so they came together on metal and their marriage was a mutually-beneficial business operation. Why didn’t go-after-what-she-wants Lureen divorce Jack when he hadn’t been, ahem, dancing with her? She was in a loveless marriage that she helped to create.

Additionally, after each encounter with Ennis, subsequent to the Reunion scenes, we see Jack bonding with or caring about Bobby more. In the Blue Parka scene, Jack brings up Bobby and his need of a tutor. The Tractor Riding Scene is where we first see Jack bonding with Bobby. This comes after Jack first learns of Ennis’ intransigence (at the River Reunion scene). And then, at the Twist Family Thanksgiving scene, we see Jack take actual ownership of the relationship: “This is my house! This is my child! And you are my guest!” Note that in Ennis’ kitchen, Jack merely referred to Bobby by saying “I got a kid.”

Another argument I have heard against this theory is that Jack was simply flustered at seeing Ennis again after four years at the reunion and he got confused when he stated Bobby’s age. I find no validity in this. A father with an eight-month old baby gets it wrong? By four months? He made his son four months older? Every parent I’ve known could tell you exactly how many weeks old the kid was through the first year. Every parent has to tell some quizzical person this every day as they goo and gah over the little rascal. He had enough consciousness to hear the child’s cry... even though he was probably used to hearing that sound 24/7 from Bobby... and question it, with a contextually accurate question. He remembered Lureen’s name. He was self-aware enough to mention he has a kid. He mentioned the age when Ennis did not. Jack is characterized as being more emotionally-controlled than Ennis in emotional situations. He was able to embellish his comment on Lureen... prettiest girl... But he gets his son’s age wrong by four months?

Another argument against the theory is that Lureen didn’t look four months pregnant when she met Jack. However, this does not mean that she was not four months pregnant. It is not at all uncommon for a woman of Lureen’s size and body shape to not start showing until five or even six months along – six is pushing it, but it does happen. Also, what of Lureen rodeoing if she knew she was four months along? She’s a woman driven toward her goals. She wanted to be in the rodeo and to win it and nothing was going to stop her. Or, she could have been acting recklessly in the hope of a miscarriage. Why was she drinking in the bar? Back then, pregnant women drank. Now, these are areas where Occam’s Razor comes into play. However, just as my answers invoke Occam, Occam was invoked by the questions themselves. While it is nice to tie up all of our notions of what may seem unusual in the characters’ characterizations, the questions need not be asked and answered in order to come to a conclusion about Lureen. If Lee put it in deliberately and if he had a reason to do so (soften), then Lureen’s actions are, quite simply, “Lureen.” (By the way… could the fact that she was drinking while pregnant explain Bobby’s dyslexia? [[laugh]] )


Now, here’s the deal… This whole thing is NOT necessary for the film. It is NOT a new plotline. All that it is is a subtle characterization softening for Jack’s character’s willingness to leave Lureen and Bobby so easily. Just as Ennis’ and Jack’s relationship was softened by the SNIT and just as Jack’s short-story comments about not wanting any kids at all or being willing to whip babies are softened by the Blue Parka, Tractor Riding, and Twist Family Thanksgiving scenes. It simply makes Jack’s willingness to abandon Lureen and an eight-month old baby more understandable – NOT more agreeable – more understandable from Jack’s point of view... character development.

In the final analysis, either she was pregnant or Lee goofed.

But…

We didn’t NEED to hear the date of the fireworks. We didn’t NEED to see the month and days of the rodeo. We have no reason to need to know when Jack and Lureen met and got married. It was obviously after the mountain time and before the reunion. We didn’t NEED to hear Jack tell us Bobby’s age. He could have said a million other things about Bobby. Ennis didn’t tell Jack the ages of his daughters. And yet, we are specifically and obviously told the dates of the fireworks, the rodeo, and Bobby’s age in a way that we are not anywhere else in the film.

Thus, Bobby the bastard.




Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #141 on: September 08, 2008, 06:09:05 am »
Wow.....what a well written and well analysed post that was by Guy Madison.

I have always thought that Bobby was Jack's son, but on reading this, it is hard to argue with what he says. He definately gives evidence and explanation to his conclusion, that Laureen WAS pregnant when she met Jack.
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It means you've decided to see beyond the imperfection

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #142 on: September 08, 2008, 10:16:22 am »
I think ambiguousity is the hallmark of BOTH film and SS, so if there are those who can reach the author's ultimate goal by believing Lureen was pregnant by someone other then Jack, why not?

I don't, however. As played by Anne Hathaway, Lureen became a bitter disappointed woman, ravaged by her relationship with Jack. He was the love of her life, and could not give her what she was willing to give to HIM.

In the ss, we are given a far-sparer report, indeed almost nothing...one reason Annie Proulx herself said film could be a more effective medium then print. Diana Ossana fleshed out that character for the film, not Annie, although Annie was kept informed and in tandem, step by step.

I may be wrong but deduce from AP's enthusiastic approval that she felt the character of Lureen was true to her own vision. After all, she WAS crazy about that interpretation of Lureen!

I agree in that I do not think there is a right or wrong interpretation.It is up to each individual to put their own spin on it.Proulx treats us as grown ups who no longer need to be spoonfed, as does Ang.
One problem I have with Bobby not being Jacks son, is why Lureen seems so uninterested in him.It is almost as if, as her marriage deteriorates and she becomes more bitter,so she becomes more distant from her son.That would seem to indicate that she associates her son very closely with Jack.
I suppose another equally valid conclusion would be that, had she not been pregnant, she would not have married Jack and therefore not be in the situation she finds herself in.So her disinterest in her son is because of her sham of a marriage.
The only thing in the s.s that might fit with Bobby not being Jack's son, is when he is telling Ennis he never wanted kids.If he was that vehement about it, would he not have taken precautions.?
Like every other aspect of this film and story, I have now talked myself round full circle !!

Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #143 on: September 08, 2008, 10:23:52 am »
The only thing in the s.s that might fit with Bobby not being Jack's son, is when he is telling Ennis he never wanted kids.If he was that vehement about it, would he not have taken precautions.?
Like every other aspect of this film and story, I have now talked myself round full circle !!

Couldn't help but have a giggle to myself trying to picture Jack in the back of that car, with Laureens boobs flopping in his face, scrambling to find a condom in his wallet. I think he was probably more worried about finding the right part of Laureens anatomy, than finding a condom.  :o :o ::) ::)
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Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #144 on: September 08, 2008, 09:01:27 pm »
Didn't I always said that Lureen was pregnant BEFORE meeting Jack?

Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #145 on: September 09, 2008, 11:07:21 pm »
It's possible...but I just don't buy it.

Lureen found Jack to be the love of her life. She MAY have been pregnant but aside from the date within the film....


Remember too, the film is one of the few scripts which managed to adhere so closely to it's original 'print' story.

we have a differing impression of Lureen. I see both Jack and Lureen as manipulating and using each other for their own ends. Now in the case of Alma and her feelings for Ennis, yes! Ennis was the love of her life, and her bitterness lasted thru the years at the failure of her marriage to him. I don't see Lureen as being much upset about Jack, oh, of course she didn't want him to die, but I suspect Lureen moved on after her last conversation with Ennis about Jack.

your last line in your post brings up an interesting point about unintentional continuity errors. I think that we have all spotted them and there is an entire thread devoted to them, I love spotting errors in films. But, I don't think that the sign over the announcers booth is an error, like the hood at first not being completely closed on Jack's truck when the boys came down off the mountain and he drove off, or the block of wood mysteriously moving around when Jack was talking to Aguirre in the Uncle Harold scene. Those types of errors do not affect the nature of the film, but the sign over the announcers booth does, and I think that the crew on the film would have caught the error and changed it - if it wasn't intentional on the part of Ang Lee to leave it in. 

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 02/08: Was Lureen pregnant when she met Jack?
« Reply #146 on: September 09, 2008, 11:14:59 pm »
Even if Lureen was pregnant by another man obviously, she wanted Jack and did catch him, by surprise in many ways!

That is one way, to me, that she is a lesbian, hiding it (maybe to herself) then, but likely not that long after or before her marriage to Jack, to him! May I go that far in thinking... maybe wishing ?

And, Lureen was obviously
sad of Jack's death, but was somewhat expecting it maybe - I'll say that too!

Au revoir,
hugs!