Author Topic: Sarah Waters: Books & Movies Discussion  (Read 95373 times)

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Sarah Waters: Books & Movies Discussion
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2008, 02:40:54 am »
Howdy Lynne!  It's so great to see you here on this thread. 8)  Sorry for the belated welcome... I was away from BetterMost for one day (Friday), and now I feel like I have a million things to catch up with.  Things definitely move fast around here.

I hope you like the book.  It really is a good story and Waters is a truly talented writer I think.  I read the book long before I saw the mini-series (it's a 3 part series by the BBC that was then was put out on DVD... all 3 episodes are on one DVD).  And, I do sort of think it's good to read the book first. I say this because I think the mini-series is so visually powerful, etc. that it will probably really influence how the book seems to you.  I saw BBM before I read Proulx's story, which has always made it hard for me to have a completely independent sense of the story.

But, if you can swing it, I completely recommend getting the DVD of Tipping the Velvet at some point.  It's really awesome.  Actually, it's one of my favorite "comfort" things to watch, especially if I'm in the mood to de-stress over something or other.

Can't wait to hear what you think of the book.  :D

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Lumière

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Re: Sarah Waters: Books & Movies Discussion
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2008, 05:55:45 pm »


So, Amanda, did you watch TTV recently?  :)


Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Sarah Waters: Books & Movies Discussion
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2008, 09:42:15 pm »
Hi M,

Yes, I did watch TTV recently and I also watched Fingersmith recently.  I wonder if there are any plans in the works to do screen versions of Affinity or Night Watch?  I feel like I'm so much more familiar with TTV and Fingersmith because I've been able to watch them repeatedly while I've only read Affinity and Night Watch once each.  I remember really liking Affinity... and I bet it could be really cool in cinematic form.  I may have to re-read Night Watch.  That's the book of Waters' that's never struck me as much as the others.  But, I feel like I should give it another chance.

So, I was thinking more about the "morning after" scene between Kitty and Nan and that lovely image of Kitty washing up at the nightstand and basin.  It's interesting how that vision of Kitty as well as Nan's memory of that very early "like a mermaid" moment replay in Nan's mind over and over again throughout the TTV series.  I guess that must be all about how strong an impression "first love" can make.  For a long time too, I've been trying to think of 19th century models for some of the imagery that's used in TTV (19th century art is my main interest in art history).  I think finding examples of real 19th century imagery that's reminiscent of TTV is really important and interesting for the question of lesbian visibility or invisibility.  This goes back to an earlier comment I made about the later scenes where Nan is dressed like a milkmaid and is going about town to the market with Cyril on her hip, etc.  And, based on those glimpses of her you'd never in a million years suspect her true lesbian identity or the extent of the experience she'd had (i.e. Diana, etc.). 

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/3778950-3e1.jpeg" border="0" />

In these period pieces the moments when the women are dressed as women in their beautiful dresses (not in their men's costumes, etc.) really highlight the dilemma of how to recognize the classic question of "what does a lesbian look like?".

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/3778897-c0d.jpg" border="0" /><img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/3778899-8da.jpg" border="0" />



Anyway, my long-winded point here about images of women from the 19th century... is that this print by Mary Cassatt always makes me think of Kitty washing-up on that "morning after."  This color etching and aquatint was made around 1890.

<img src="http://www.divshare.com/img/3778898-381.jpg" border="0" />

Do you happen to have an image of Kitty from this "morning after" scene in TTV?  I haven't been able to find one online.  I think it's interesting to try to think of possible 19th century images that might have inspired some of the "look" of TTV beyond the perhaps most obvious examples (being photos and posters from 19th century vaudeville shows and male impersonators).

The timing and that dating for the actual period for TTV has always made me wonder a bit.  Do we know during what year(s) TTV is supposed to take place?  I don't recall a specific date or date range mentioned in the book (although it's been a while since I've read it). 

Last time I watched Fingersmith I was excited to note a prop being used in the Lant Street apartment that indicated the year.  It's actually a calendar that they're using to countdown to the girls' birthdays.  Anyway, I think I recall it saying it was supposed to be 1861.






« Last Edit: February 14, 2008, 08:38:38 pm by atz75 »
the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Lumière

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Re: Sarah Waters: Books & Movies Discussion
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2008, 06:11:24 pm »
Loved your post, Amanda!  :)


Quote
I wonder if there are any plans in the works to do screen versions of Affinity or Night Watch?

Yes, I read somewhere (possibly in an online interview with SW or on her site, can't remember) that Affinity and The Night Watch are also due to be produced as movies sometime this year.  I absolutely loved reading Affinity and I really hope that it is adapted properly.  It has so much potential of becoming a stunning piece if it is well done.  We'll see, I'm keeping an eye out for those..


Quote
In these period pieces the moments when the women are dressed as women in their beautiful dresses (not in their men's costumes, etc.) really highlight the dilemma of how to recognize the classic question of "what does a lesbian look like?".

Couldn't agree with you more on this point. 
When dressed in their elegant women's clothes, you couldn't tell by looking at any of the ladies: Kitty, Nan, Flo, Diana.. that they were "toms".

Diana was in a different league though.  As respectable as she looked, she was clearly more open about her sexuality than the other ladies.  She was frequently escorted to very public occasions by the "boy" in her life and she seemed to have absolutely no worries as to how that might be interpreted by others.  My guess is that she must've also been known outside her household for her Sapphist gatherings as well (I would imagine her servants gossiped about it..).  She probably didn't care what others thought of her because she was wealthy, independent (financially & otherwise) and didn't necessarily need anything from anybody to lead a comfortable life.. I am sure we'll discuss Diana to some length in the very near future..

Back to Nan - I think she knew how to blend in when the situation/circumstances called for it. You had to back then, I would imagine.
I don't know if she was more comfortable in men's clothes or not... what do you think?   She certainly looked good dressed either way.. ;)


Quote
Do you happen to have an image of Kitty from this "morning after" scene in TTV?

I don't have that picture (will hunt for it when I get a chance..)


Quote
The timing and that dating for the actual period for TTV has always made me wonder a bit.  Do we know during what year(s) TTV is supposed to take place?

Good question.  I know that TTV is set in the 1880s but I don't know the exact dates.  I wonder now if the dates are actually revealed in the book .. must be somewhere.

Another "morning after" pic for you...




Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Sarah Waters: Books & Movies Discussion
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2008, 09:15:41 pm »
Hey M!

I'm so glad we got this thread going.  The more I think about this subject, especially TTV, the more interesting some of the issues become.  It's super fun to have someone to discuss all this with!
 :-*




Couldn't agree with you more on this point. 
When dressed in their elegant women's clothes, you couldn't tell by looking at any of the ladies: Kitty, Nan, Flo, Diana.. that they were "toms".

Diana was in a different league though.  As respectable as she looked, she was clearly more open about her sexuality than the other ladies.  She was frequently escorted to very public occasions by the "boy" in her life and she seemed to have absolutely no worries as to how that might be interpreted by others.  My guess is that she must've also been known outside her household for her Sapphist gatherings as well (I would imagine her servants gossiped about it..).  She probably didn't care what others thought of her because she was wealthy, independent (financially & otherwise) and didn't necessarily need anything from anybody to lead a comfortable life.. I am sure we'll discuss Diana to some length in the very near future..

Yes, I think you're absolutely right about Diana.  I think part of the point of her character is to show what a difference class differences and money could make (to a certain extent) when it came to freedom of expression in terms of sexuality.  Diana is so over-the-top in her decadent lifestyle.  She's just amazing (in good and bad ways)... and I'll keep saying it... I totally, totally love Anna Chancellor's voice (especially when she's first introduced in the carriage).  The way she speaks is sort of mesmerizing to me. Oh yes... 
;) 

She's also an interesting figure in showing that there are competitive layers to lesbian society and that not all lesbians are necessarily benevolent towards other lesbians (given her abusiveness to Nan and Zelda, etc.). 

I love that you used the word Sapphist!  That's such an awesome word.  Apparently, Virginia Woolf liked to refer to herself as a Sapphist.  I think it's a totally elegant word for lesbian.



Quote
Back to Nan - I think she knew how to blend in when the situation/circumstances called for it. You had to back then, I would imagine.
I don't know if she was more comfortable in men's clothes or not... what do you think?   She certainly looked good dressed either way.. ;)

Oh definitely, Rachel Stirling is gorgeous as Nan.  I think her face looks like a porcelain doll.  Just beautiful and perfect for this kind of period piece.   It's also amazing how good she really does look dressed in both her boy's clothes and her girl's clothes.  It's sort of surprising to realize how androgynous she can look.  The androgynous look can be really sexy.

Yes, I think that when Flo and Nan are having their first real conversation walking through the streets together (when they're making plans to go to tea and the lecture)... I think Flo has that wonderful, no-big-deal response to Nan's revelation that she likes to wear men's clothing.  When they talk about the advantages of being able to "change and change about" and the numerous times that Nan reflects on how much more freedom she felt dressed as a man... it seems clear that Nan probably slightly preferred wearing men's clothing.  I think this is primarily a reaction against some of the oppressions she feels as a woman in terms of being hassled on the streets and other social/political constraints.  I don't think it at all means that she wants to be a man.  Also, once she settles in to being the "housekeeper" for Flo and Ralph she decides to start wearing pants again, etc.  So, I do think there's a personal comfort level for her when she's wearing men's clothing.

This whole issue of switching back and forth between men's clothing and women's clothing is very interesting even at the very beginning when she meets Kitty in her dressing room.  I love that when Kitty comes out in her purple dress she looks at Nan and asks "bit of a let down?"  And, I love the look in Nan's eye when it's clear that she's still totally turned on by Kitty... in a dress or in a tux.  Poor Kitty... I wish we knew a little bit more about how her life went after she married Walter.  I think what she did to Nan is awful.  But, I also feel very sorry for Kitty... because my sense is that she really is a lesbian who decided to marry Walter for stability.  It's so tragic that she comes begging back to Nan at the end.  I have a feeling that Kitty's circumstance probably happened to a lot of lesbians throughout history.  And it makes me very sad.
 :'(


Yeah, I'd love it if a pic of Kitty at the washstand could be found.  I'm surprise that it's so hard given how prominent that image is in TTV (and how often it's replayed in Nan's mind).  By the way... when doing image searched on yahoo and google for Keeley Hawes... you come up with a lot of hot images!  So, it's sort of fun doing this research.  I'll keep looking for this image too.



the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Lumière

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Re: Sarah Waters: Books & Movies Discussion
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2008, 05:15:02 pm »
More on the discussion and on your last post soon, Amanda..  :)

But for now, here is a pic of Nan & baby Cyril..





Her identity and past experiences disappear into those clothes don't they?  She just becomes a girl carrying a little child on her hip.  Love that.


Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Sarah Waters: Books & Movies Discussion
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2008, 10:15:41 pm »
More on the discussion and on your last post soon, Amanda..  :)

But for now, here is a pic of Nan & baby Cyril..





Her identity and past experiences disappear into those clothes don't they?  She just becomes a girl carrying a little child on her hip.  Love that.

Thanks for that great picture M!

Yeah, Nan certainly transforms over and over and over again throughout TTV.  And this particular "milkmaid" type incarnation somehow seems particularly interesting... again in terms of lesbian visibility.  I love all the complexities in the true family dynamics that emerge between Nan, Flo, Cyril and Ralph.   There's so much love (by the end) between all these characters, it's really charming. The fact that Cyril's the son of another woman with whom Flo had been in love, just adds a whole different layer of complexity.

What do you make of Flo's story about Cyril's mother (I think her name was Lillian)?  That seems like such a huge, huge back-story.  Does it sound to you like Lillian loved Flo in return?  I can never really tell if we're supposed to believe Lillian and Flo had a true affair... or if their relationship was mostly just a really intense platonic friendship.  Flo seemed so naive about things (in a certain way) that I really wonder about how she was perceiving that relationship with Lillian.  Essentially, was it an unrequited-love situation for Flo?



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Offline Artiste

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Re: Sarah Waters: Books & Movies Discussion
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2008, 10:41:59 pm »
Has anyone seen On The Waterfront 1954??

With many known actors in it, even Marlon Brando!!

Were they all known then??

What do you think of that movie??

Hugs!

Offline Lumière

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Re: Sarah Waters: Books & Movies Discussion
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2008, 01:01:26 pm »
Has anyone seen On The Waterfront 1954??
With many known actors in it, even Marlon Brando!!
Were they all known then??
What do you think of that movie??

Hugs!


Hey Artiste,

This thread is dedicated to the books by the author Sarah Waters and movies that were created from them.
Maybe you could post your question in the "Ressurecting the Movies" thread ...

Cheers,
~M


Offline Lumière

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Re: Sarah Waters: Books & Movies Discussion
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2008, 01:59:21 pm »
...
What do you make of Flo's story about Cyril's mother (I think her name was Lillian)?  That seems like such a huge, huge back-story.  Does it sound to you like Lillian loved Flo in return?  I can never really tell if we're supposed to believe Lillian and Flo had a true affair... or if their relationship was mostly just a really intense platonic friendship.  Flo seemed so naive about things (in a certain way) that I really wonder about how she was perceiving that relationship with Lillian.  Essentially, was it an unrequited-love situation for Flo?


You are so right about the complexities/layers in the little family unit Flo, Ralph, Nan & Cyril made together.  Just goes to show Love makes a family, doesn’t it? ;)

Re: Flo & Lillian –
I think that there are different answers to your questions depending on whether we are referring to Flo from the movie or the book.

In the book, SW provided us with a more detailed look at what Lillian & Flo’s relationship might have been like.  I definitely gathered that they loved each other deeply (more than platonic friends).  If I recall correctly, in the book, Nan and Flo had more conversations about Lillian than they did in the film.  In the book, when Nan’s feelings for Flo started to surface, she began to resent Lillian’s memory a little, especially because Flo talked about her a lot and probably went on about how wonderful and deep their connection was.   I randomly recall the scene in the book where Nan decides to clean the house when Ralph and Flo were out…she sees this dusty rug lying around (a rug that was made for Flo by Lillian), as well as a picture of a ‘heavy-browed’ woman (who she gathers was Lillian) and from her narrative, we can see that she is starting to despise this woman who has such a grip on Flo’s heart.  There is no doubt in my mind that Flo & Lillian were lovers in the novel.  I can’t recall if she said so explicitly but I am certain that the subject of her intimacy with Lillian came up in one of her conversations with Nan.


In the movie, well, it is a bit more ambiguous.  There is only one scene where we get to hear about Lillian and Flo’s love for her, as well as her loss.  It was such a wonderful scene – tears spilling from Flo’s eyes as she tells her story, Nan feeling for her but also holding out hope that Flo would see her in a different light (not as a replacement for Lillian but a possible object of Flo’s affections).  It is clear to us that Flo loved Lillian deeply but we are not completely sure whether they were lovers or not, though we get the impression that they were very close.  Personally, I think that they were lovers.  I can’t think of solid evidence from the movie to back it up just now, but it is just a strong sense I get. ;-) 


Let’s turn to Ralph for a sec…
When he came into the living room that morning and found Nan and Flo lying together after their night out at the lesbian bar, he didn’t seem surprised or upset by it… he was a little embarrassed if anything.  No doubt he was aware of her sexuality and was accustomed to the idea that his sister’s lover would be a woman.  How wonderful it must’ve been for Flo to have such an open-minded and loving brother, especially at a time when it was so undoubtedly unacceptable to be queer.  I love that he accepted her, despite what the neighbors might've said. 


Here’s a pic from Nan and Flo’s first “morning-after” scene.. ;)