Author Topic: Ok.  (Read 5801 times)

Offline Katness

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Ok.
« on: January 20, 2008, 08:01:11 am »
So I have to admit that the aspect of me being in a different time and place does change things. Which is why I deleted what I originally said to re-write what I feel as me in the here and now. I was going to delete this topic of mine all together. But realised I can't. So like I said, I'll just put how I feel in the here and now.

Yes I will admit that I'd be hurt. But I also know that you can't really change a person's natural inclinations towards one gender or the other. So as much as I would be hurt. There really would be no competition. As I couldn't give him what he needs from a man. However, I could be biased feeling that way as A) I can't really get angry at things like this, just hurt or so I like to think. B) I could have gotten into a relationship with a man myself, but as I sort of knew I was highly likely gay myself, I said no. I told him that I didn't want to be responsible for breaking his heart when it was confirmed to me that I am gay. So I will also admit that was I heterosexual then I possibly would be angry. But then looking at it from the point of view of a woman leaving me for a man. Well, yes, I can see how I could be angry.

I guess the bottom line is there are too many situations, circumstances, ways something could happen, results, reactions, chain reactions, chain results to know what one could do, would do or how they would react. I could only really say how I would ideally like to act when I think about it. But If I was in the situation, I doubt that is how I'd react.

To JudgeHolden, no disrespect taken. I fully realise each and every day that the more I read and the more I listen to people the more I still have to learn about more of life and her tricks of both mind and body and also the more I realise that a lot of it doesn't really make any sense.

Which tends to make me feel completely idiotic and dumb (and I feel like that way too often, even including now). But, I console myself from that with thinking that someone who is idiotic and dumb (I hope this doesn't make me sound self-absorbed, that is the last thing I want) possibly often isn't always willing to learn from others or by reading or researching. I however, am more then willing to learn from others, read and research, more then I need to if I feel what I have found is not adequate.

Sincerely, Kat.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2008, 07:27:09 am by Katness »
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Offline tampatalon

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Kat, The way Ennis was acting at Thanksgiving which was years later, If Alma
made such an offer right after seeing the re-union kiss. Would he have listened to
this offer clear threw. I think he would have still reacted with denial, but I do
think Alma loved him enuff and was forward thinking for her time to handle the
truth in some way if she was treated honestly.

TampaTalon^">
"Lean on me, Let our hearts beat in time, Feel strength from the hands that have held you so long. Who cares where we go on this rutted old road, In a world that may say that we're wrong."--EmmyLou Harris

Offline Katness

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Well, thats true.

Thinking about things more. I wouldn't really bluntly have a conversation with him. But instead I'd drop hints about how I felt in ways that would not make his denial flare up but still make it so he could see. And show it through actions. I mean Ennis is a man of few words. And actions mixed with hints would probably go further then talking. At the same time though I would not be pressing him. Just letting him know I'm one person he can trust, should he need to.

Not saying it would work though, just that thats how I would feel.

Sincerely, Kat.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing.

If all is not lost, then where is it?

I used to have a handle on life, but it broke.

Offline tampatalon

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I wonder how a direct approach something like this would work,
Alma to Ennis & Jack, "Are you two trying ta get your arses shot
out there by some passerby?" and then just play it off lightly and
offer them coffee. I know gay relations went on like you describe
back then cause I used ta hear "whispers" at home.

TampaTalon^">
"Lean on me, Let our hearts beat in time, Feel strength from the hands that have held you so long. Who cares where we go on this rutted old road, In a world that may say that we're wrong."--EmmyLou Harris

Offline Penthesilea

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That's a very noble attitude you express, Kat. And I think we all wished for Ennis to have somebody like this in his life.

But it's very theoretical. Because even if you were Alma and still would have an open mindset, you'd still love him and be hurt by him.
Apart from the fact that Alma herself can't grasp what's going on, she's his wife and understandably and legitimately expects him to love her back with all his heart and put all his efforts into the well-being of their family. And as much as I love Ennis, and as much as I can understand him, he undeniably partly failed in doing so.

To put it simple: she would have been a saint if she had been able to act like you described it. Where's Alma's happiness in this scenario? Where's her chance to find someone who loves her? She would sacrify it for Ennis and her kids. And I don't think this is a desirable goal for any human being.

Yes, we wish Ennis had a friend like this in his life. But it's asked too much of a wife to play that role (an ex-wife is a different matter though).

Offline tampatalon

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When Alma asked Ennis to ask his friend up fer coffee in the
morning after the Siesta Motel, what would that have been about?

TampaTalon^">
"Lean on me, Let our hearts beat in time, Feel strength from the hands that have held you so long. Who cares where we go on this rutted old road, In a world that may say that we're wrong."--EmmyLou Harris

injest

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That's a very noble attitude you express, Kat. And I think we all wished for Ennis to have somebody like this in his life.

But it's very theoretical. Because even if you were Alma and still would have an open mindset, you'd still love him and be hurt by him.
Apart from the fact that Alma herself can't grasp what's going on, she's his wife and understandably and legitimately expects him to love her back with all his heart and put all his efforts into the well-being of their family. And as much as I love Ennis, and as much as I can understand him, he undeniably partly failed in doing so.

To put it simple: she would have been a saint if she had been able to act like you described it. Where's Alma's happiness in this scenario? Where's her chance to find someone who loves her? She would sacrify it for Ennis and her kids. And I don't think this is a desirable goal for any human being.

Yes, we wish Ennis had a friend like this in his life. But it's asked too much of a wife to play that role (an ex-wife is a different matter though).

I agree...women deserve to be fulfilled and happy too.

I think when this situation arises it would be EASIER for the woman to turn loose...I mean, if your husband is gay there isn't a whole lot you can blame yourself for. You CAN'T offer him something you dont' have whereas an affair with a woman would leave you with a feeling of failure. (I am guessing)


injest

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When Alma asked Ennis to ask his friend up fer coffee in the
morning after the Siesta Motel, what would that have been about?

TampaTalon^">

denial, it was the early 60s....she was hoping that in fact they HAD been out talking all those hours...if Jack had come up and drank coffee she could 'torque that clothes hanger back into shape'

Offline BelAir

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I was just watching bits of BBM again. Including the bit where Alma sees Ennis and Jack kissing at the bottom of the stairs. And then Ennis going off with Jack after the night in the Hotel.

I was thinking about what my reactions would be. Now, if I was Alma but still with my own current mindset that I have now. Only heterosexual, or at the least bisexual. I'd calmly talk to Ennis. And even though it is the 1960's, I'd let him know that what he is feeling for Jack is quite all right. But also knowing how people can be in the 1960's especially in a place like Wyoming, I'd let Ennis know that I would not divorce him.

Basically, I'd set him free of our relationship but let him still have the security and safety from society and potential homophobia of still being married to me. And it would not only be for him either, but for the kids as well. Partly because if other kids found out their Dad was in love with another man, well they would turn on them. But all those kids would have to know is that their parents are still together. As I can tell from some of his actions and expressions that he does care for Alma, just not in the same way as he does for Jack. And that basically, he doesn't have to hide from me. And he could come to me with any trouble if Jack wasn't close by to help.

Now that I think about it, Ennis probably did need someone like that. Someone to show him that what he feels for Jack is "alright" as Jack himself said. Thats just what I'd do. If I was Alma but still had the mind set I have now as me.

Also, in the scene where Cassie says to Ennis "Ennis, girls don't fall in love with fun". The look on Ennis's face straight after that, I was wondering if he was thinking about Jack. The reason I'm saying this is because I wonder if Ennis at first was not seeing that Jack is in love with him, even after Jack says that he wishes he knew how to quit Ennis. And that maybe, just maybe, Ennis was putting two and two together in realizing that Jack didn't "fall in love with fun" either??

Or maybe someone already said that?


Regarding the first part, I know I would be hurt, angry, and jealous...  In my head I would be exploding.  But I doubt I would be able to verbalize any of it.  I would probably have spent a lot of time thinking about "what to do" while Ennis was away fishing.  I honestly don't know what conclusion I would reach... because it really is impossible for me to truly 'walk in Alma's shoes'...  The time/place/circumstances of my existence being so very different from hers.  Alma, like everyone else in the movie, would have benefited from a really good friend.  There is no way I could have coped with all of what she went through on my own.

Regarding the second part, I think you have a good point.  I never thought about it that way, that the conversation may have caused Ennis to reflect on Jack's feelings... vs. just what Cassie was feeling. 
"— a thirst for life, for love, and for truth..."

Offline David

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Alma was no doubt shocked and confused by the sight of her husband kissing another man.   I think she invited him up for coffee so she could get a closer look and see for herself what was going on.

But after that weekend when Ennis runs off with Jack, she shoulda knew the marriage was a sham.   

I have spoken to girls that dated gay or bisexual guys.   They are fooled at first because if a guy has sex with them they must be straight right?  Many of the girls have suspected their guy was gay.   Eventually the relationship self destructs.

Offline BelAir

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Alma was no doubt shocked and confused by the sight of her husband kissing another man.   I think she invited him up for coffee so she could get a closer look and see for herself what was going on.

But after that weekend when Ennis runs off with Jack, she shoulda knew the marriage was a sham.   

I have spoken to girls that dated gay or bisexual guys.   They are fooled at first because if a guy has sex with them they must be straight right?  Many of the girls have suspected their guy was gay.   Eventually the relationship self destructs.

as most relationships do when you don't 'love the one you're with'...

 ::)  :-\ :)
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Offline Katie77

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When Kat first mentioned this subject in her blog, this is the reply that i sent her.


I read what you wrote Kat, with quite a personal interest, and you know, that wold make a good thread, asking people what they would have done, if they were Alma, after seeing them at the bottom of the stairs.

You see, my mum was an "Alma", and it was in the 1950's.......that was when she would have found out that my dad was homosexual......she too, was married with two little daughters.

Now I dont know much about the time line of when it was revealed, or even what her reactions were, I have never asked her, she is in her eighties now....maybe I should ask, Im not sure how to approach it, or if I should....I can only go on what I remember, and because I was only seven when they fnally did split, the memories I have are pretty scant.

I remember the "friends" that used to visit our home, and I remember mum and dad going out socially todgether with these friends as well. I remember going to the beach as a kid, often with dad and his "friend". I remember visiting dad's friends at their house, and them visiting us, I remember one in particular, who worked for Cadburys, and he always bought mum and us kids, chocolates....I remember meeting his little sister too, she was the same age as me....so somewhere or sometime, there must have been some gatherings when our family socialiized with his family.

Of course then, I did not think these male visitors were anything more than my parents friends, and I dont know exactly what kind of relationship my father had with them......I am talking about probably four "friends" that I remember....i think two were a "couple", and the others were friends with each other as well as my dad.

That one friend, (the one who workd for Cadburys) remained good friends with my dad for many many years, I remember he sent me a message when I got married, so that shows how long they were friends. I think he kept in touch with my mum too. My mum always spoke nicely of him.

From what I gather, these men thought a lot of mum, gave her the utmost respect, and I think she accepted them, and liked them too...

Then my dad met Allen, who was only 17 (my dad would have been 32)....and my mum was not happy that Dad had got into a relationship with someone so young, and it was then that she split with dad......Dad and Allen lived together for the next 14 years.

Me and my sister had a great relationship with Allen, he was like a big brother to us, we loved him dearly and he loved us and treated us like his little sisters....of course when we were younger, we did not realize the relationshp that him and my dad had, but as we got older we knew it was something a bit "different"....my mum met someone else, and re-married, and even though she did not approve of dad and Allen's relationship, originally, she was still friendly towards them, and they often visited our new home, and spent Christmas and other special occassions with us. My sister and I, also used to go and visit Dad and Allen regularly for weekends and holidays.

Gee, I'm bringing up things here that I had not thought about or even remembered for a long long time...I've really been digging deep in the memory bank here........I started this off, in reply to your comment on what YOU would have done if you were Alma, and just wanted to let you know, that it could be possible to do what you said you would do.......even if only for a short time......




Like I said here, I really dug into the memory bank here, and in the hours since I wrote it, I have been doing quite a bit of thinking about it.

When I try to picture my mum and dad, in their late 20's, in the early 1950's, coming to terms with my dad's homosexuality, I cant help thinking that it must have been confusing for both of them. They would not have had anyone they could talk to about it, or give them any advice, so I think they just carried on their life as best they could.

Although as I've mentioned that my mum accepted my dad's friends, there still must have been some terrible hurt and disappointment that the man she married and loved needed someone else in his life, that she was never going to have a "normal" life with him. She must have been scared of what the future held for her and us kids. Did she look for love elsewhere? I dont know. Whatever, it all must have been very frightening and stressful for her.

It would be hard enough in today's life to cope with the situation, but for a woman to survive on her own in the mid 50's with two young children was, it was even harder. There was no governement benefits in those days for single parents, there were not that many jobs for women then. My mum did not have any family that could give her assistance either.

When she did leave, we moved to another city 100 miles away, my mum got a job in a telelvision factory, and we lived in one room in a boarding house for some time. My dad moved to the same city with Allen. I assume Dad gave mum some financiial support as well..... My mum, at 32 with two young children, going at it alone in those times was very brave......but when you think of it, she really had no choice but to leave and start a life of her own......there really was nothing else she could do to ensure the well being of herself and me and my sister.......she did the right thing, she made the right choice, it wasn't easy, but it was the only thing should could do..........
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Offline Front-Ranger

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I would have counted my lucky stars that I was married to a man magnet like Ennis!  ::)

No, I really should take this seriously...let's see...I'm just not sure that all marriages of a gay and a straight in the '50s and '60s were unhappy. Maybe, for some, it worked out just fine. Like Jack and Lureen's marriage, which seemed to be fairly amiable until later on. Of course, these days, there would be no reason to continue the marriage. Husband and wife could divorce amicably and pursue their own relationships wherever they wish...or could they?

Your reminescences are very interesting, Katie Sue! Thanks for sharing!!
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Offline Brown Eyes

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I would have counted my lucky stars that I was married to a man magnet like Ennis!  ::)

No, I really should take this seriously...let's see...I'm just not sure that all marriages of a gay and a straight in the '50s and '60s were unhappy. Maybe, for some, it worked out just fine. Like Jack and Lureen's marriage, which seemed to be fairly amiable until later on. Of course, these days, there would be no reason to continue the marriage. Husband and wife could divorce amicably and pursue their own relationships wherever they wish...or could they?

Your reminescences are very interesting, Katie Sue! Thanks for sharing!!


Hi Lee,

I think this is a very interesting observation on this question.  BBM presents us with two different ways that marriages between gay/bisexual men and straight women could play out.  It's very interesting to note the differences between Lureen and Alma.  I agree that for the most part, the relationship between Lureen and Jack is friendly and amiable (more like a marriage between friends than a marriage between lovers), until the end where tensions are rising of course.  It's interesting that except for the moments when Jack is thinking about running away with Ennis, he doesn't seem to ponder the idea of getting a divorce (for it's own sake).

Lureen and Alma are so different as women though (just as Ennis and Jack are very different), so on another level it's hard to compare their different reactions and actions.  I mean, Lureen is a college-educated business woman while Alma's sphere of experience seems to be more limited. 

Actually, it's interesting to realize how little we know about Alma's own personal background compared to Lureen... at least we have some sense of Lureen's range of experience (college, sorority, rodeo star, business, family dynamics... we really know a lot about her compared to Alma).

Anyway, I don't know how to interject into this scenario how I myself would react, simply because I really find it hard to project myself into Alma's shoes.  I have no idea what it would have been like to be a woman in Wyoming during the time period of the film/story.  I would hope that I would have the good sense to divorce Ennis much sooner than happens in BBM, but again, it's hard to hypothesize about this.

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Offline delalluvia

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First off, I can't reconcile "my current mindset" and "the 1960's" in this thought experiment Kat.  My current mindset is the product of my generation, the late 20th and early 21st century.  The way I think now was not the way most people thought back then.

So being in Alma's shoes, I'd probably be furious and scared.  Furious, because of Ennis' waywardness ("I'm a woman, his wife and the mother of his children, he promised to love ME!") and scared because I'm a mother of two, one man away from welfare and going back to my family in disgrace because I had to get divorced.  Divorce had a pretty big stigma back when.

I'm in love with a man who doesn't talk.  So sitting down to have an in-depth conversation about Ennis' true feelings is a laughably pie-in-the-sky-never-going-to-happen scenario.  Ennis never talked about his true feelings to the love of his life, what chance do I have as Alma to get him to open up?  And knowing Ennis, I wouldn't even consider doing it.  So basically, I don't think I'd react any more different than Alma did.

Offline Katness

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I'll reply to this properly later when my brain can think again.

Sincerely, Kat.
I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing.

If all is not lost, then where is it?

I used to have a handle on life, but it broke.