Question actually about the movie

[aileen]

Ennis doesn't speak. He acts I think showing it was the purpose of this scene.

[bbm_stitchbuffyfan]

Thank you all for the responses. So far, we've gotten some seemingly legitimate conclusions for this scene's purpose. Toast's post was excellent.

[Ellemeno]

Here you are two useless riffraff guys, able to openly talk about your sexual desires, openly and rudely with no respect for your partners.   But here am I aching and longing for my man who respects me and wants me too, but we cannot even admit to ourselves that we have these strong legitimate feelings.  We cannot publicly admit our love, but you can crudely say the most sexual things that reflect no real commitment or respect.

Thanks, Toast.  That sounds right.

[YaadPyar]

Maybe this has been said in a different way, but I think the scene also demonstrates the incredible sorrow that lives just below the surface always for Ennis.  One of the things that tends to be true is that sorrow and depression express themselves in the emotional lives of men as anger and irritability.  Instead of crying or feeling sad, they get mean and angry.

I know this to be true from personal experience, and I think this is part of Ennis's reality.  He is very good at standing things, but the toll it takes on him, the erosion and corrosion on his mental, spiritual and emotional health is profound.  I think this scene demonstrates just how close to the surface his demons are.  He is protecting his wife and kids, but he's scaring them terribly in the process, and if his own pain weren't so raw, if he weren't himself so wounded, he would find another way to handle these two men.

[tiawahcowboy]

Alright, I still immensely enjoy discussing the movie itself and the book (as long as I'm not talking to dumb ass trolls). I've had a particular question since I first saw the movie but I never thought to ask...

What is the purpose of the Fourth of July scene?

I first thought it was to show Ennis' violent side but I was wondering what everyone else got out of this scene. By the way, even though I am not sure of it's purpose, I love this scene. The motorcyclists scream 'trash' (that in itself makes me giggle) and it's absolutely thrilling to see Ennis kick some ass. Nobody messes with Ennis Del Mar.

And plus, visually beautiful -- once again.

From what I understand from Annie Proulx's description of Ennis Del Mar, he did not start fights; he finished fights which someone else started or he might ambush someone bigger than himself if they had picked on him first. His father taught him to do the latter.

I just believe that if Annie Proulx had written a 4th of July Scene, IMO Ennis and Alma would have taken the girls to another location at the ball park to avoid a confrontation. In the story, and in words to this effect, Ennis actually loved his daughters more than he loved Alma. He did not have any terms of endearment for her in the story.


Actually, since there should have been (or more than likely would be) the local police at the city sponsored public event, he could have got them to remove the rude biker punks from the premises or they could have been arrested for disturbing the peace.

Even after the (Story) Thanksgiving (more than likely during the afternoon) confrontation with Alma and Ennis left, it was night when he went to the Black and Blue Eagle bar, got drunk, had a short dirty fight and left.

But, IMO, there was no purpose for having the 4th of July scene in the first place. It was just another attempt to add extra heterosexual elements to the movie, where "Straight" screenplay writer Larry McMurtry could have another scene with a woman in it.

[serious crayons]

It was just another attempt to add extra heterosexual elements to the movie, where "Straight" screenplay writer Larry McMurtry could have another scene with a woman in it.

Hunh? You think Larry McMurtry is desperate to sneak in women characters simply because he enjoys them as a straight man? Then why would he take on this project in the first place?

[tiawahcowboy]

Hunh? You think Larry McMurtry is desperate to sneak in women characters simply because he enjoys them as a straight man? Then why would he take on this project in the first place?

From the Time Magazine interview with Larry McMurtry (what he said is in bold RED text):

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1151802,00.html

One of the main things you added to the story was women. In a lot of your work, women turn out to have far richer interior lives than men.

I have always argued that if you want to learn something about emotion, you have to ask women. That's why I've had three women characters who've won Oscars--[for] Patricia Neal, Cloris Leachman and Shirley MacLaine. I've always thought that for my interests, emotionally, I have to seek women to talk about. Men don't talk about emotion. They don't understand it.

[tiawahcowboy]

I've always thought that for my interests, emotionally, I have to seek women to talk about. Men don't talk about emotion. They don't understand it.

I thought the above might have been a sterotypical statement by a woman writer if I had not known that Larry McMurtry had said it.

[serious crayons]

Hmmm! That's interesting, tiawahcowboy. I apologize for my skepticism. And you're right, it is a bit sexist.

As for this comment:

Men don't talk about emotion. They don't understand it.

It's certainly true of this movie, anyway.

[tiawahcowboy]

Hmmm! That's interesting, tiawahcowboy. I apologize for my skepticism. And you're right, it is a bit sexist.

As for this comment: Men don't talk about emotion. They don't understand it.

It's certainly true of this movie, anyway.

Apology accepted, ma'am!

The only men whom I know or have known in the past 60 plus years who dont talk about nor understand emotion were brainwashed to believe that a "real" man should never talk about emotion with another man. Oh, even if the man understood emotion, he would not tell another man he did.

When I was a graduate student, John, my apartment mate, had have a woman to listen to him talk about his emotional problems/personal feelings related to his father being in the hospital. I told him that he could talk to me since I had experience something similar with my own father in the hospital. Besides, since he was a Pentecostal/Charismatic Christian, he should have remembered that even Jesus showed emotion and talked about it, too. He ended up being my apartment mate (it was a 2 bed/2 bath type) by coincidence. I had known him for two college terms before.

OT here: John had the nick name of "Chino" because his mother was Chinese-American and his father was European-American. He really did not look oriental as such, it was just that the "Asian-influenced" eyes just made him even more handsome. I was in the closet in those days; we even dated some of the same women grad students (or dated room mates). He could have been on a pro soccer team; he was just that great at the game and a professional soccer coach said so.