what do you believe?

[David In Indy]

            Well I guess it is time for me to weigh in on this issue.  I have never done so before really to
anyone, except for in general..I dont think I believe in god.  I used to from the time I was a very
small child.  I was very involved in church and held my belief as you hold a warm and comforting
blanket around you.  In times of distress or worry I would pray that gods will be able to make the outcome
a good one.  I was a good believer.  I did what I believed to be the Jesus way.  I started to notice
the judgemental ways of the people in the churches. It turned me completly off of church.  So then
I embarked on a life of spiritual connection to god on my own.  Until finally when I held a point that
I truly had to use what i had learned and put it to the test.
            The bible says when it comes to faith.
"Ask and you shall be given.  Seek and you will find."  That is as basic a statement as its possible to
read.  No misinterpretation can be made.  No i didnt get it right, there.  It is plain and straight.  Well
My brother was going thru hell.  He needed desperately to have god to cling to.  He prayed for
faith.  He prayed for solace.  He prayed for guidance.  He prayed for sanity.  I prayed for all of
that along with him....because I knew that god would give him what he had promised.  After all
god doesnt break promises right.?  Well he never received that faith or solace.  And I waas devastated
because of it.  So any god that breaks a promise.  Is no god to me...  I dont need him.  And now
I find myself deeply missing a god to pray for and rest on.  But i just can never get that faith back.
I told bro Patrick the other day.  I would love for him to pray for a very dear friend in need.  Because God and i arent on very good terms these days.  And he believes with all his mind and soul.  So
maybe he can do something where obviously i can not.
      Maybe that is too much information.  But you asked.

Hi Janice!!

Can I butt in for a quick minute?

I can relate to what you said. I have also had many times in my life where I've asked God for an increase in Faith. And most of the time it seemed as if nothing happened. In fact I'm going through it right now I think. And once again I've started questioning the existence of God. But I don't consider myself a non believer. I consider it a period of spiritual dryness. Nearly all of the greatest saints in the church also experienced similar periods of spiritual darkness in their lives. There is nothing wrong with it. In fact it is quite human and normal. Everyone goes through it I think.

But if I understand your post correctly, it doesn't sound to me as if you are "non believer". If you were, I don't think you would have asked Brother Patrick to pray for you. Why would you ask him to pray to someone or something you don't believe exists? "Seek and you shall find". Maybe you are still seeking. I think we all continue to seek throughout our lives. We won't have all the answers until we get to Heaven.

I get very angry with God sometimes, because I don't understand why certain things happen. Why did my Mother have to die of Leukemia 4 years ago? Why did God take her during a time I needed her the most? It's impossible for us to understand a conscience and wisdom greater than the Universe. There is "our way" and there is "God's way", and God's way doesn't always make sense to us. But I take comfort in the fact that God knows best. Sometimes I think it's better we don't always get what we ask from God. God gives us what we need, and he does it in his own way, on his own time. What I think is most important is we continue to ask and continue to seek. And if we open our hearts up to receive it, God will fill us with his love and presence in a way perfectly tailored for each of us.

That's what I believe. I've come to a point in my life where I feel God's presence around me all the time. And I'm greatful for it. But I continue to seek, because I don't always understand. He's there, and I feel his companionship and guidance, but this doesn't mean I don't still get confused, and even angry sometimes. But God is patient, and he loves each of us. He is a perfect friend. He knew each of us, and loved each of us before time began. He knows what is best for us, even when we don't. I hope you don't give up on God Janice because he will never give up on you. He understands your anger and your confusion.

Anyhow, that is my 2 cents. Well maybe 4 cents.

Sorry about that.

[ifyoucantfixit]

      David
       Well I never ask anyone to pray for me.  I ask for prayers for others......I think the issue with
my brother is over.  He committed suicide. Without that faith we both needed so desperately for
him to find.  He certainly wont find it now. 
       As to the second thing, it was not for me either.  It was for someone else.  Someone desperately
looking for their own faith now.  I figured if anyone had any influence, and for some outside reason
something is listening to him, then maybe he could help the other person.  It doesnt help me.
I could be helped only if the other person is helped....Because no one is listening to me.  And i am
not asking anymore even.  I send positive energy and thoughts.  To me that is the only thing I
can do honestly.  The rest would only be a lie in my eyes.  I dont lie.

.....thank you for the words tho.  I do
appreciate your feelings and care.    janice                                   

[Shakesthecoffecan]

I was a Christian, and I am still connected with that identity somewhat, but I do not consider myself one.

What I believe in right now is Harmony. This sounds so cheap but I was introduced to the idea in the movie Latter Days. Rebecca Jordan's character says she believes in harmony and I got to thinking about it and it make a lot of sense. When things are in harmony tings are good. When they are out of balance then it is a mess.

My problem with Christianity began as a child, a saved, born again believer. The concept of fearing God rubbed me the wrong way. I was not comfortable with something I was supposed to fear. Now as an adult I understand better how ideas and concepts change, especially thru multiple interpretations.

But Pandora's box was open. I just cannot accept that I, or anyone, is doomed to spend eternity in a lake of fire because we were born and lived past infancy. This concept of original sin is to me a yoke put on humanity by people who want to control it.

Today I had an exchange on my blog with the only other person I have heard of who read Flannery O'Conner's Wise Blood it is quite a tale. Hazel Motes ( a male) is a young boy who goes to the county fair and sees a girly show. When he comes home his Mamma can tell something has a hold of him and she grabs him and in a youthimism amongst my people she "jerks a knot in him" and says: "Don't you know Jesus died for you?" and little Hazel Motes says: "Well I didn't ask him too!"

Damn when I read that something clicked. Here I and a hundred generations had been beholding to the actions of a man who may of very well been schizophrenic, my ancestors standing on one another's shoulders to coax me, come here boy, put on the mantel of this mans suffering.

You have people like Jerry Falwell who would say things like Jesus does not hear the prayers of Jews. Okay, so God did not hear the prayers of Jesus in the Garden the night before his death? When he prayed the lords prayer? He was a Jew. The 12 who succeeded him were Jews, sometime later the Greeks created a name to identify the followers and naming something, honestly is like putting bullets in a gun.

I admire Jesus of Nazareth. He was committed man who spoke common sense to the masses and called them to be better than they were. I personally believe he could have been a homosexual. He never said a word against it. He actualized the archetype that was available to him and went with it. It is the same thing that responds to us when we pray. By praying we are harmonizing with the universe, ourselves, our future. Of course we will see results.

So when asked if I am a Christian I say no, I am a human. That is all anyone needs to be, but that is my opinion and I do not mean to offend anyone with what I believe.

[forsythia12]

wow.  shakestheground.  that was very profound.  as a christian, i'm not sure i agree with everything you say, but i sure as heck understand it. i have several difficulties myself with the faith, but i do continue a relationship with jesus, and although i go through trying times and doubt, i still feel his stength and guidence.
thanks for your input.
i hope you keep writing and stay in touch with me.
hugs
forsythia

[David In Indy]

I was raised Roman Catholic, and both my parents were devout. I attended Catholic grade school, we went to Mass every Sunday and on holy days. I was an altar boy. The whole nine yards. I grew tired of all the judgmental attitude of the Church. I always felt so judged and hated. And not only that, but since I am actively gay, I'm excommunicated anyway, and I can no longer partake of the Eucharist until I go to confession and repent. Big deal.

I don't consider myself a Christian either. At least not in the Catholic sense, or in any sense probably. I don't like the direction Christianity is going. Hating people, judging people and shutting people out is NOT my idea of being a Christian.

Janice I am SO sorry to hear about your brother!!

(((Janice)))

[ifyoucantfixit]

 


          I too believe we are meant to vibrate together.  The more people that are like
minded and caring the better the results.  Just like more energy makes a better light.  That
is what I believe.  Maybe prayer or positive thought is the same thing.  A transfer of positive
energy.  From the person praying, or thinking, good fortune and health for the other.  I dont know.  But that is how i see it all.
           I thank you all for the honest way that you are now telling how you feel..All I know is   like Jackie Bissetts character in Latter Days says.  "if your religion doesnt accept all kinds
of different things..gays, drinking or any other thing that has merit in this life." (paraphrase) then
I am sure not joining that church.  I would rather go to hell with all of you, if that is the real
results,  Than live an eternity with those judgmental, hateful, mean spiteful people that
label all of the people i care about as sinners.  If thats what being a sinner does for you
.  "Bring it on."  We can join hands and walk into that fire pit together...........I just dont
happen to believe there is such a thing.. so i dont fear it.

[forsythia12]

again, i want to thank you all for your honesty.  like i've said before, i love hearing what people think about the whole god issue.  i was a youth pastor for the christian faith, non-denominational...and i've spent years listening to opinions of non-believers, athiests, agnostics, etc.....and i still find it interesting. 
here's another set of questions for you all, and again, this is not at all in any means to try and push anything, this is just a questionaire:

1) is there an absolute truth?

2) is there  right and wrong?  (if so, what determines that?)

3) is there heaven and hell? (some of you have already answered this)

4) if there is a heaven , does there have to be a hell?

5) if there is a god, does there also have to be a devil?

6) can there be more than one god?....(if you believe in god/gods at all)

again, please know, this is open for personal opinions, and i'm not intending on bantering, or quoting , or whatever....i'm just curious.
if you don't want to answer, please still write on this thread anyways, as understanding where everyone is at 'spiritually' is very insightfull.
thanks
forsythia

"pentecost...i don't know what the pentecost is. my mother never explained it to me.  i guess the world ends and guys like me and you march off into hell"

[David In Indy]

again, i want to thank you all for your honesty.  like i've said before, i love hearing what people think about the whole god issue.  i was a youth pastor for the christian faith, non-denominational...and i've spent years listening to opinions of non-believers, athiests, agnostics, etc.....and i still find it interesting. 
here's another set of questions for you all, and again, this is not at all in any means to try and push anything, this is just a questionaire:

1) is there an absolute truth?

There is a universal truth. And this I believe comes from God.


2) is there  right and wrong?  (if so, what determines that?)

Yes. What determines it? Human conscience.


3) is there heaven and hell? (some of you have already answered this)

There is a Heaven and a Hell. But I believe that Heaven and Hell also exist now in this world. We simply continue on in whatever state (or world) we are presently in when we die.

4) if there is a heaven , does there have to be a hell?

Everything has an opposite. So yes. There must be.

5) if there is a god, does there also have to be a devil?

Once again I believe in opposites. So yes.

6) can there be more than one god?....(if you believe in god/gods at all)

There is only one God.

Maybe these questions were directed at someone else. 

[forsythia12]

1) is there an absolute truth?

There is a universal truth. And this I believe comes from God.


2) is there  right and wrong?  (if so, what determines that?)

Yes. What determines it? Human conscience.


3) is there heaven and hell? (some of you have already answered this)

There is a Heaven and a Hell. But I believe that Heaven and Hell also exist now in this world. We simply continue on in whatever state (or world) we are presently in when we die.

4) if there is a heaven , does there have to be a hell?

Everything has an opposite. So yes. There must be.

5) if there is a god, does there also have to be a devil?

Once again I believe in opposites. So yes.

6) can there be more than one god?....(if you believe in god/gods at all)

There is only one God.

Maybe these questions were directed at someone else. 

thanks for your answers david.  very insightfull.  i appreciate that. 
not sure what you mean about the questions being directed elsewhere though. 

[David In Indy]

thanks for your answers david.  very insightfull.  i appreciate that. 
not sure what you mean about the questions being directed elsewhere though. 

I just meant I already believe in God. Maybe these questions were for those folks who question his existence.