what do you believe?

[Shakesthecoffecan]

1) is there an absolute truth?
    I think there is until some situation arrises that creates a gray area that the absolute truth does not cover.

2) is there  right and wrong?  (if so, what determines that?)

   Yes, but it can be complicated. You can do something that is wrong, but if it is for a greater good then that can justify it.

3) is there heaven and hell? (some of you have already answered this)

   There is, but I think it is a state of mind, I think if it exists in the hereafter, it can exist here too. Some of us live in a personal hell because we are unable to escape circumstances.

4) if there is a heaven , does there have to be a hell?
   Not necessarily. I tend to see the hereafter as one thing, there is a human need to seperate good and evil, but I think they need each other for context sake.

5) if there is a god, does there also have to be a devil?

   I think it comes from a need people have to put a face on god or the devil, I tend to think of good and evil as concepts but if it helps someone understand by making them into persoanlities I can relate to that.

6) can there be more than one god?....(if you believe in god/gods at all)

   God I hope not. Like Ennis said, "Ones enough".

[Soluki]

1) is there an absolute truth?  No there cannot be.  It is not logical.  One learns the truth through series of events and experiences, and since those, by their nature are fluid, so isn't truth.

2) is there  right and wrong?  (if so, what determines that?)  As we perceive it, yes.  But right or wrong are as saying that soemthing is good or bad.  We are exaggerating the parts of a whole that we perceive as either good or bad, and assigning that quality to the whole.  People, things and events are neither good or bad.  They are empty.  It is our perceptions of parts that cast them as good ro bad, beautiful or ugly, etc.

3) is there heaven and hell? (some of you have already answered this)  I am Buddhist so this question is relative to where one is their cyclic existence

4) if there is a heaven , does there have to be a hell?  Since all things are dependant arisings that consist of many things, yes.  If there is a "heaven", there must be a "hell"

5) if there is a god, does there also have to be a devil?  See above

6) can there be more than one god?....(if you believe in god/gods at all)  The wise man serves many Gods but his soul follows only one.  That is your choice.

[brokeplex]

again, i want to thank you all for your honesty.  like i've said before, i love hearing what people think about the whole god issue.  i was a youth pastor for the christian faith, non-denominational...and i've spent years listening to opinions of non-believers, athiests, agnostics, etc.....and i still find it interesting. 
here's another set of questions for you all, and again, this is not at all in any means to try and push anything, this is just a questionaire:

1) is there an absolute truth? yes, and that truth shall set you free

2) is there  right and wrong?  (if so, what determines that?) yes, the still voice in your soul tells you so

3) is there heaven and hell? (some of you have already answered this) no

4) if there is a heaven , does there have to be a hell? I don't know

5) if there is a god, does there also have to be a devil? no

6) can there be more than one god?....(if you believe in god/gods at all) yes, the creator in his/her infinite manifestations

again, please know, this is open for personal opinions, and i'm not intending on bantering, or quoting , or whatever....i'm just curious.
if you don't want to answer, please still write on this thread anyways, as understanding where everyone is at 'spiritually' is very insightfull.
thanks
forsythia

"pentecost...i don't know what the pentecost is. my mother never explained it to me.  i guess the world ends and guys like me and you march off into hell"

I was raised Southern Baptist and never have left the church. But, I don't cotton to the interpretation of the scriptures by the Southern Baptist Convention.
I go to church every now and then, when DL drags me there. I like to sing the hymns, but the sermons are a snoozefest. It is funny how we eventually resemble our parents, when I was younger it was my mother who dragged my dad to church Sundays. Now it is DL who occasionally drags me to church.

[ZK]

I was brought up a Roman Catholic and attended a Catholic Primary School.
For a long time now I have not been able to decided where I belong.

I certainly try and live my life to be honest and love thy neighbour. I also believe in religous tolerance, to me whether you are Christian or other religions then we are all on the same path, which path we take may be something different but the fundamental beliefs seem to be same.

I am a fervent believer in "what goes around comes around". I also like to think that I practice what I preach, rather than just preach

There are just some basics beliefs/foundations of Catholicism (at least) that I have trouble coming to terms with. So yes believe in God, but am I a Catholic, no. However when recently one of our family friends died suddenly, I found myself reverting back to the Catholic doctrine/prayers without thinking ..."may perpetual light shine upon him". So may be its a true what they say here, "once a Catholic always a Catholic".

[delalluvia]

Neo-pagan here.

Left the Christian religion behind, oh, about 11 years ago now.  Never been happier.

No, I didn't have a "crisis of faith", no I wasn't "angry at god".  I just sat down one day and decided to find out if I believed because I believed it, or because it was what I was taught and brought up with.

So I started researching my faith.  I decided that it would be best if I went directly to Jesus' own words, after all, everyone else/church leaders, etc., probably put their own spin on things. 

For those of you who believe in signs, when I picked up the Bible to start to read the gospels, so I'd know Jesus' own words, the sentence that leaped out at me was

"There is no divorce."

Now, for those who know me here, I'm a feminist of the old school.  I believe that women being able to divorce is one of the powers women wrested from men to give them opportunity to be something other than chattel in society.  Women have the power and the strength now to divorce unsuitable/abusive spouses.

There was no way I thought that it was right that there was no divorce and that Jesus supported the Hebrew bible rules that if one did divorce, one was committing adultery.  In a Christian world, one was bound for hell for adultery if you were not sorry, and I knew the reasons my mother got divorced 3 times and my sister 1.  There was no way they were ever going to be "sorry" they got divorced.  And so they were going to hell?  Women were all going to hell for divorcing abusive/bad husbands?

But there it was.  In two books of the gospels.  I then started researching, maybe Jesus didn't really mean divorce.  Maybe the translation was wrong...but nope.  The translation was correct. 

That all by itself started the turn.

The more research I did into Christian religion, the more I realized that the main strength of Christianity - that it was really true and not "made up" like everyone else's religion - was false.  Christianity was even more a make-believe hodge-podge of stories and beliefs cobbled together from the pagan religions and philosophies around at the time.  There was little to no proof that the stories of the bible were any more true than the Odyssey or Illiad.

But I was still a spiritual person, not a big believer in dogma, so if Christianity were no more true than any other religion, then there was no great fear or terror in leaving it for a religion that had no dogma, a religion where your relationship with the gods was personal and had little to do with how you lived your life - morality/ethics having nothing to do with religion.

So I became a neo-pagan.  It had no dogma and in the particular path I follow, the gods are elemental forces.  An idea that appeals to me with my science background.  And I've found a great peace and happiness with it.  Unlike my former Christian belief which bored me to tears and made me greatly unhappy with myself most of the time because I could never live up to perfect standards of behavior and was constantly having to beg forgiveness and grovel and feel bad about myself...gah, I don't know how people stand it.

But being from a science background, I am also greatly atheist/agnostic friendly.  I understand that my faith in the gods is completely irrational, not logical and unprovable.  But since my religion doesn't foist itself on anyone, having to prove itself as 'true' is never an issue.  It's a personal thing.

[forsythia12]

"There is no divorce."

Now, for those who know me here, I'm a feminist of the old school.  I believe that women being able to divorce is one of the powers women wrested from men to give them opportunity to be something other than chattel in society.  Women have the power and the strength now to divorce unsuitable/abusive spouses.

There was no way I thought that it was right that there was no divorce and that Jesus supported the Hebrew bible rules that if one did divorce, one was committing adultery.  In a Christian world, one was bound for hell for adultery if you were not sorry, and I knew the reasons my mother got divorced 3 times and my sister 1.  There was no way they were ever going to be "sorry" they got divorced.  And so there were going to hell?  Women were all going to hell for divorcing abusive/bad husbands?

thank you ZK.  that was very interesting.  yes, i too struggled with the divorce thing.  my mom did a lot of divorcing, and as a married woman with a marriage that has had many, many ups and downs, i have considered it from time to time.
i'm going to play 'god's advocate' for a minute, if you don't mind. about being an adulterous if one divorces, well, i think the bible points out the sin of our actions, and what the consequences would've been had jesus not have died for our sins.  no, i people don't go to hell for divorce, but the whole message of the bible is that we are sinners, and our sin is not god's plan, as god says "i hate divorce".  the bible is full of "don'ts"  and i think the point is only to show how we absolutely cannot live up to god's standards, or refrain from sin, thus, we needed jesus to 'pay the price' for us.  the message is that we can't do it alone, we can't abstain from sin, therefore we cannot be made perfect for god...except that jesus took on all the sin of the world for us, and paid the penalty, and if we claim him as our savior, we will be made clean through him. 
i'm sorry, i'm not trying to preach.  i'm just trying to explain what most christians believe about the impossible 'don'ts' in the bible.  i'm not trying to change your mind, and i fully respect your belief.  i'm just stating the 'other' side, if you will.

also, i think god hates divorce because a lot of the time it's based on serving #1...rather than putting one's spouses' needs ahead of one's own. we live in a world that teaches "whatever makes YOU happy", and we are used to looking out for ourselves first and formost.  this is not all a bad thing, but it can be if we're consumed with ourselves rather than others. 
anyways, divorce is on the rise now, and i don't think it's god's desire that we all get divorced.  i think a lot of marriages suffer because we've forgotten how to give, but rather focus on recieving.  you may disagree with me, and let me point out that god would never ask a woman to stay with a horrible husband.  abuse, violence, adultery, or anything else that's harmfull, unproductive, or toxic is nothing to put up with, and warrents a divorce most definately.  god said "husbands, LOVE your wives, and give yourself up for her as christ gave himself up for the church."  so , god wants men to put their wives needs above and beyond their own, and anything less, is not god's way....

i know i sound preachy, and i don't mean to be.  i'm just responding from a different viewpoint, just to keep this thread going, and to show many sides of our belief system today.
keep posting.  i'd love to hear more of your thoughts.
 

[delalluvia]

1) is there an absolute truth?

To quote Pontius Pilate "What is truth?"  No, there isn't.  Truth is sometimes- oftentimes - a matter of perspective here on earth, so the idea that there is One Absolute Truth or absolute anything for that matter runs against what is the usual case.

2) is there  right and wrong?  (if so, what determines that?)

No, not really.  Right and wrong are pretty much subjective and determined by society and time.

3) is there heaven and hell? (some of you have already answered this)

From my religious path?  No.  There is an afterlife where you have to account for your life, and if you've done bad, then you will be punished according to the degree of your evil-doing - but one is not punished forever.  Everyone else goes to the standard afterlife.  It's a nice place.

4) if there is a heaven , does there have to be a hell?

No.

(5) if there is a god, does there also have to be a devil?

No.  If you're talking one god, then no, he can encompass all - like the Christian god.  He created everything so that means he created evil as well.  He is complete unto himself, so he is good/bad/everything in between.

6) can there be more than one god?....(if you believe in god/gods at all)

Yep.

"There is no divorce."

Now, for those who know me here, I'm a feminist of the old school.  I believe that women being able to divorce is one of the powers women wrested from men to give them opportunity to be something other than chattel in society.  Women have the power and the strength now to divorce unsuitable/abusive spouses.

There was no way I thought that it was right that there was no divorce and that Jesus supported the Hebrew bible rules that if one did divorce, one was committing adultery.  In a Christian world, one was bound for hell for adultery if you were not sorry, and I knew the reasons my mother got divorced 3 times and my sister 1.  There was no way they were ever going to be "sorry" they got divorced.  And so there were going to hell?  Women were all going to hell for divorcing abusive/bad husbands?

yes, i too struggled with the divorce thing.  my mom did a lot of divorcing, and as a married woman with a marriage that has had many, many ups and downs, i have considered it from time to time.

i'm going to play 'god's advocate' for a minute, if you don't mind.

about being an adulterous if one divorces, well, i think the bible points out the sin of our actions, and what the consequences would've been had jesus not have died for our sins.  no, i people don't go to hell for divorce, but the whole message of the bible is that we are sinners, and our sin is not god's plan, as god says "i hate divorce".  the bible is full of "don'ts"  and i think the point is only to show how we absolutely cannot live up to god's standards, or refrain from sin, thus, we needed jesus to 'pay the price' for us.  the message is that we can't do it alone, we can't abstain from sin, therefore we cannot be made perfect for god...except that jesus took on all the sin of the world for us, and paid the penalty, and if we claim him as our savior, we will be made clean through him. 
i'm sorry, i'm not trying to preach.  i'm just trying to explain what most christians believe about the impossible 'don'ts' in the bible.  i'm not trying to change your mind, and i fully respect your belief.  i'm just stating the 'other' side, if you will.

also, i think god hates divorce because a lot of the time it's based on serving #1...rather than putting one's spouses' needs ahead of one's own. we live in a world that teaches "whatever makes YOU happy", and we are used to looking out for ourselves first and formost.  this is not all a bad thing, but it can be if we're consumed with ourselves rather than others. 
anyways, divorce is on the rise now, and i don't think it's god's desire that we all get divorced.  i think a lot of marriages suffer because we've forgotten how to give, but rather focus on recieving.  you may disagree with me, and let me point out that god would never ask a woman to stay with a horrible husband.  abuse, violence, adultery, or anything else that's harmfull, unproductive, or toxic is nothing to put up with, and warrents a divorce most definately.  god said "husbands, LOVE your wives, and give yourself up for her as christ gave himself up for the church."  so , god wants men to put their wives needs above and beyond their own, and anything less, is not god's way....
 

[/size]

OK, but to play devil's advocate right back at you, what you are saying from the 'other side' is pretty much what Jesus said - that humankind just rationalizes away their sin.

I didn't take the Bible literally when it suggested some impossible things - the Devil flying Jesus up to a mountaintop where he could "see all the kingdoms of the world".  Well, there is no such mountain, so I can take that story allegorically.

But when Jesus said something mundane very clearly why would anyone believe they have to "explain" that as well?  There is no "explaining" what he meant by no divorce.  He meant what he said.

There was abuse in marriages back then as well - abuse and who knows what all.  Do not think for an instant that there wasn't.  Yet Jesus still supported no divorce. 

To say that he meant something other than that is just rationalization.

The Christian Bible is a guideline for living.  It's not impossible to do now.  The Amish come pretty close to doing it.  It's that many modern people who call themselves Christians don't want to lead those kinds of lives, so they rationalize and explain away what they don't want to do.

So back to your "other side" opinion, you're saying Jesus meant "no divorce" but only until he was crucified, then it didn't matter what anyone did so long as they were sorry about it afterwards because he died for our sins.

If that's the case, then there are no guidelines whatsoever.

The people who lived closer to Jesus' time certainly didn't believe that.  They still stoned people, imprisoned people, and exiled them for not hewing to Jesus' teachings - the ones before he was crucified.

I don't believe that the Christian bible is just a book of suggestions for better living that you are free to wander off of whenever it suits you.

You can, of course, but you will pay the price.

[delalluvia]

I have been looking at some of the Native American belief systems and the idea of a Spirit (or God) as a connecting force is comforting to me.

In the Star Wars films, the Force is "an energy field created by all living things, that surrounds and penetrates living beings and binds the galaxy together."

I can certainly get behind this belief, too. 

[forsythia12]

well, i'm not sure how to take your last entery delalluvia.  the tone sounded very......cold.  i'm not sure why you think i make up my own version of what jesus said.  no i didn't.  if you take scripture, you need to look at the context it is written in, and you need to look at the other scriptures revolving around that topic , and the bible says that HUSBANDS OUGHT TO LOVE THEIR WIVES AND GIVE HIMSELF UP FOR HER.  that is NOT taking jesus command and making it my own, and i resent that.  yes, there was abuse then, as there is now, and no, it was ungodly for a man to do that.  there are other scriptures that back that up, so please don't put modern christians in a box and label them.  
as far as amish people.  yes, they live peaceful lives, but they too are also affected by 'the fall' and are considered to have sin in their lives  (in the christian faith), and they too need to rely on god for their strength and purity.  the bible says we ARE supposed to work at the commands, and work out our salvation, but we cannnot save ourselves by our own merit, which is like the pharisees who were strongly rebuked by god becuase they depended on their own works, and not god.

as far as no divorce except after jesus' death, no, that's not what i meant either.  the bible is in two sections.  old and new testament.  the old testement shows us the LAW of god, given to the jews under moses.  the new testament is how we can obtain salvation, which is "not by works alone!", but rather what jesus did on the cross.  

i really don't understand why you thought i meant anything otherwise.  i was being quite polite, and i find your reply very rude.  indirect warnings of me 'paying the price' for what i choose to believe?  you've proclaimed yourself as a neo pagan who's left the christian way behind, yet you tell me if i don't live up to biblical standards, i'm going to pay the price?  
this post is supposed to be friendly, not pointing fingers.  i was just trying to explain some passages in the bible about divorce, in response to some interesting things you had to say in your earlier post.  
i'm very offended and upset.  this was not my intention for this thread, and it was meant to be a SAFE place to discuss religious matters, therefore, if this becomes offensive or argumentative, then, i suppose this thread will have to be locked by a moderator.

[delalluvia]

Well, let me start off this way Forsynthia, I apologize if you were offended, that was not my intention at all.  You asked for my opinion and I gave it as matter of fact and as objectively as possible.

The "you" in "You will pay the price" was an editorial 'you'.  It didn't mean you in particular.

It is my belief that that is the way it will go for such people.

I understand completely if others don't believe the same.

But these are my beliefs and that's what you asked for.  I'm sorry if they make you uncomfortable, but there's not much I can do about that.

well, i'm not sure how to take your last entery delalluvia.  the tone sounded very......cold.  i'm not sure why you think i make up my own version of what jesus said.  no i didn't.  if you take scripture, you need to look at the context it is written in, and you need to look at the other scriptures revolving around that topic, and the bible says that HUSBANDS OUGHT TO LOVE THEIR WIVES AND GIVE HIMSELF UP FOR HER.  that is NOT taking jesus command and making it my own, and i resent that.  yes, there was abuse then, as there is now, and no, it was ungodly for a man to do that.  there are other scriptures that back that up, so please don't put modern christians in a box and label them.

Certainly, and I did.  See, here is where I and the Christian bible parted ways.  Yes, the Bible says husbands ought to love their wives, but Jesus also said he didn't come to cancel the laws of Moses - meaning rules on adultery.  So he says both.  Which one did he mean?  According to my bible, he's saying this to a crowd and his disciples.  What do you think he meant?  Pretty much what he said.

as far as amish people.  yes, they live peaceful lives, but they too are also affected by 'the fall' and are considered to have sin in their lives  (in the christian faith), and they too need to rely on god for their strength and purity.  the bible says we ARE supposed to work at the commands, and work out our salvation, but we cannnot save ourselves by our own merit, which is like the pharisees who were strongly rebuked by god becuase they depended on their own works, and not god.

True, but Matthew 5:16 and 1 Peter 2:12 state that good works also glorify god, so there's that contradiction.

as far as no divorce except after jesus' death, no, that's not what i meant either.  the bible is in two sections.  old and new testament.  the old testement shows us the LAW of god, given to the jews under moses.  the new testament is how we can obtain salvation, which is "not by works alone!", but rather what jesus did on the cross.

See above answer.