Author Topic: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?  (Read 28242 times)

Offline Penthesilea

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TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« on: February 18, 2008, 01:49:41 pm »
A little later than usual today, but here it is ...  :)


This week's topic was suggested by Katherine (Ineedcrayons), but also came up in a conversation between Souxi and JeffWrangler not too long ago. So thanks to all three of you!  :-*

Let's talk about the „Maybe Texas“ scene. First Ennis asks if everything between Jack and Lureen is normal, then says the following:

Ennis: You ever get the feeling', I don't know, when you're in town, and someone looks at you, suspicious ... like he knows. And then you get out on the pavement, and everyone, lookin' at you, and maybe they all know too?

I think this is a quite complicated and important little scene. Ennis shows himself open and aware, Jack makes his third (and last) proposal to Ennis, which leads me directly to some questions about this scene:

- Should Jack have responded differently when Ennis asked him whether he worried about people on the pavement knowing?

- What was Ennis's intention in this dialog?

- How aware was he at this point of the movie of the nature of his and Jack's relationship?

- Why did Jack make a proposal just at this moment? Had he been long waiting for an occasion? Or did it just slip out?

- What about the symbolism in this scene? What do you make of the coffeepot/pan/water/etc?


I'm sure there are more aspects to it, so share your take on this scene.




Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2008, 02:22:15 pm »
This is such a great question... and a scene that certainly deserves more in-depth attention.

I'll come back to this thread as I ponder this some more.

But, I'll just start by saying that I think the observation about this conversation revealing that Ennis has some level of self-awareness at this point is pretty interesting.  It seems to suggest that he's taken at least several steps away from his earlier "I'm not queer" stance.

I really don't know what he's hoping to hear from Jack.  It seems that this is a pretty big worry, weighing on Ennis's mind, and clearly Jack is the only person with whom he can discuss this.  It's actually nice to see Ennis opening up to Jack and discussing this candidly with him.

As far as Jack goes... it's interesting how quickly he seizes on the opportunity to suggest a compromise (at least) in the issue of living together.  You can tell Jack has been thinking about different strategies for brooching the subject with Ennis and this idea of moving *closer* if not together seems to be a new recognition on his part that the living-together-dream might be more possible in baby-steps.  Unfortunately, in this scene it may come across that Jack's playing off of Ennis's fears and maybe even encouraging his worried-state by suggesting that "maybe you should get out of there."  On the surface, I could see an argument being made that it's sort of manipulative.  But, I don't think that's Jack's motive/intention at all.  I do sort of think Jack is a little worried about Ennis... the look on his face and the tone of his voice when he suggests that Ennis "should get out of there" makes it seem like he really is concerned.

This scene just seems so painful for both of them.  It again highlights the recurring main issues for both characters.  Ennis's fears and Jack's desparation at being separated from Ennis.


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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2008, 02:52:01 pm »
One immediate comment I'd like to make about this exchange is to note Jack's seeming naivete when making his proposal to Ennis, specifically, inviting him to relocate to Texas. I have little doubt that Childress circa 1978 (sorry, I don't have the published screenplay before me to more specifically date this scene) would have been any better or safer than Riverton at that same time in terms of a gay, bi, or man-loving man living his life in comfort and security as a welcome member of the community. Ennis senses Jack's naivete and rebukes him for it, and doesn't appreciate at the time what a beautiful gift Jack's dreams really represent.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2008, 03:05:19 pm »
One immediate comment I'd like to make about this exchange is to note Jack's seeming naivete when making his proposal to Ennis, specifically, inviting him to relocate to Texas. I have little doubt that Childress circa 1978 (sorry, I don't have the published screenplay before me to more specifically date this scene) would have been any better or safer than Riverton at that same time in terms of a gay, bi, or man-loving man living his life in comfort and security as a welcome member of the community. Ennis senses Jack's naivete and rebukes him for it, and doesn't appreciate at the time what a beautiful gift Jack's dreams really represent.

I don't think Jack believes Texas would be safer... I think he just means that maybe Ennis should move someplace new where people don't know him as well as they may in Riverton and where there would be little chance for rumors, etc. to follow Ennis.

And,  I don't think the safety issue is the main reason why Jack is suggesting the move to begin with... it seems like a pretext to me.  I think Ennis gets this right away... which is why he gets angry.


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Offline forsythia12

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2008, 03:06:06 pm »
omg thank you for this thread.  i love this idea.  i love examining scenes and discussiing them.
the scene in which you ask about is one of my favorites.
first of all, this scene at the river was after alma confronted ennis about jack.  we all know his response, and like true to ennis's character, you cannot make a fool of ennis.  he always hated being made a fool of, and i think this weighed heavily on his mind during this camping trip.  i think he was shocked and scared and pissed that alma had discovered his secret.
i think he wanted to know if jack had experienced the same thing.  "if my wife found out, did yours too?"
ennis, in his own fears, was paranoid his whole life of this, and thought maybe jack would feel the same way...but jack didn't have the fears that ennis had.  i think jack was oblivious to the idea or consequences of being discovered, which i'll point out later.
as far as the dishes floating down the water, well, i think that's part of ennis's clumsiness.  ennis had many many clumsy moments. remember, how many times he tripped over stuff?  how 'bout the first tent night when he grabbed his blanket and headed into the tent...he tripped, knocked over stuff.  when he got spooked by the bear, and chased the mule, he tripped over the packs and food.  when he made it back to the camp after the bear incident, and he was cut and all mad, he tripped, and kicked something  before he sat on the log.  when he yelled at alma for taking an extra shift at the store, he tripped and kicked over a bucket while chasing after her.  ....so, when the dishes went floating away, and he said "yeah you're a real thinker...jack fuckin' twist'  i think it was adding a little comedy to the fight.  not funny comedy, but a little lightheartedness to a serious issue. i think it was just showing their differences in how they deal with being gay, and their differences in character.  i think that was the main point of this conversation.  i think the writers didn't want us to forget how scared ennis was of being detected.

also, soon after this fight, i thought the scene with leshawn's (i think i spelled that wrong) husband was very profound.  he asked jack about the cabin, and going up there just the two of them....and after the invitation, jack sat there solemn and silent.  i think jack may have been thinking about the conversation with ennis, and wondering how leshawn's husband knew he was gay.  i think at this point, jack saw what ennis meant....like "when people look at you  and they know"
also, aguirre found out about jack and ennis, and jack never told ennis that because he knew he'd be upset.  i think jack didn't see the seriousness of being discovered.
ang lee said about jack , "he's the hopeless romantic", and i think true to jack's character, he runs with how he feels, and doesn' worry as much about being found out as ennis does.

as far as the texas comment.  personally, i think jack just meant that he doesn't have the same diffuculties that ennis was facing.  i think he thought ennis was paranoid, but i also think he thought maybe ennis wouldn't feel that way in texas, or maybe it was the people in wyomming that made ennis feel that way.  i don't know what else to read into it.  maybe jack just wanted ennis closer to him, and maybe it was one last offer, but i'm not sure.  i'd love to hear other ideas.

thanks again for this thread.
forsythia (leigh-ann)

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2008, 03:24:31 pm »
Hi Leigh-Ann!

Thanks for that great post! :)

I think one of the reasons that Ennis is so paranoid and concerned following the confrontation with Alma... is that he does not know that Alma witnessed him and Jack kissing.  So, as far as Ennis can understand... Alma just somehow deduced that he's gay.  He's probably worried that he's giving off signals or clues that he's not even aware of. 

And, not only is Jack not as concerned about these same types of fears, I don't think he would make those fears a priority.  Even if he was afraid (I mean, he's probably a little afraid), I don't think he would let thos fears stop him from living with Ennis if he could.  Jack's never been confronted in the same way as Ennis has by Alma, so there is some significant difference in experience here.  And, Jack never witnessed the same kind of violence as Ennis (the Earl memory).  So, perhaps the danger isn't as palpable to Jack.  He knows Ennis is terribly afraid... so he's aware of these issues, but they don't seem to impact him as viscerally.



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Offline ifyoucantfixit

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2008, 03:33:24 pm »
           Ennis's immediate reaction to Jack's proposal to move to Texas was not about their
relationship.  It was about his relationship to his daughters.  He said "Maybe you could convince
Alma to let you and Lureen to adopt the girls." " Then money would rain down from L.D. Newsome,
and we could all live together herdin sheep."  I think he was trying to discuss his newly discovered
queer status.  How much other people could tell about his queerness just by looking.  He was
still afraid of being found out.  Then Jack again mentioned his moving near him, and that was an
irritant.  He didnt want to discuss them living together.  Therefor the anger he displayed.  Basically
"I dont want to go into that again.  I was wondering about the awareness of others to us.  Me and
you as QUEERS."  That i think was the conversation that he wanted to get into.  And Jack angered
him by bringing up the same thing HE had always wanted.  Thereby making him angry.

Now further than that we can go int all the symbolism.  The dropping the bucket, and the
things that might have been getting away.  Or the fact that it was water under the bridge or
on down river.  However you wish to catagorise it.  Jack once again foiled, and stomping off
this time because of his plans being stunted yet one more time.  I believe it was showing how
they both had the same issues that stopped them in the beginning.  Nothing solved nothing
changed.  Yet again.  They didnt talk to each other with intent, on listening to the others ideas,
but at each other.  With their own agenda in mind period.



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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2008, 03:38:55 pm »
Isn't this the scene where Ennis is balanced on a rock in the stream?  If I'm remembering that correctly... it's great because it's a literalization of his name (sort of)... the idea of an island in the middle of water.

The whole topic of the floating bucket is huge.   And leads right back into that old, classic discussion about buckets and coffee pots.


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Offline forsythia12

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2008, 04:09:43 pm »
Hi Leigh-Ann!

Thanks for that great post! :)

I think one of the reasons that Ennis is so paranoid and concerned following the confrontation with Alma... is that he does not know that Alma witnessed him and Jack kissing.  So, as far as Ennis can understand... Alma just somehow deduced that he's gay.  He's probably worried that he's giving off signals or clues that he's not even aware of. 

well, i don't think ennis is confused about how alma knew 'cause she already told him about tying the note to his fishing line.  she told him she used to wonder why he never brought home any fish.

and jack did have some confrontation about his gayness. he was totally shot down by the rodeo clown, he was told off by agguire, and he was ridiculed by jd newsome several times. 

i think jack not only persued ennis without a lot of fear of being discovered, but he persued his sexuality without crippling fear.  yes, he hid it, but he knew he was gay, and he was going to live as a gay man when and where he could.  mexico, leshawn's husband, ennis, whatever.
i think despite his fears, he embraced his sexuality more than ennis, who was paralyzed by fear.
i think moving to texas was again showing jack's optimisim.  jack was very optomistic at times....ennis, not so much.  ennis saw problems, whether valid or not....


Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2008, 04:15:49 pm »
Well, yes, Alma explains that she figured things out about the fishing trips, the note, etc. 

But, also Ennis is now worried about "people on the pavement" looking at him "suspicious" like "they know."  I do think Ennis is worried that folks are somehow able to figure him out by the way he looks (or something like that).

I definitely think you're right that Jack simply lives without at much fear as Ennis, even when it comes to the issue of sexuality.


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Offline forsythia12

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2008, 04:24:19 pm »
yep, and that's why i think he is so silent when leshawn's hubby asks about the cabin.  i think it took jack for a loop 'cause i don't think he knew how he knew. (what's that guy's name again?)
it's nice chatting about this azt.
keep posting if you think of anything new.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2008, 04:30:49 pm »
yep, and that's why i think he is so silent when leshawn's hubby asks about the cabin.  i think it took jack for a loop 'cause i don't think he knew how he knew. (what's that guy's name again?)
it's nice chatting about this azt.
keep posting if you think of anything new.


Nice chatting with you too Bud!  It's a nice way to pass the time here at work. ::) ;D

Anyway, Randall is the guy on the bench with Jack.  Yes, I think Jack is sort of stunned by the whole turn of events at that dinner dance.  I think there's a lot of flirting between Jack and Randall at the table and then it is raised to the way-next level by Randall on the bench.  I'm sure there are a million things running through Jack's mind at that point.  One of which, may be "how does he know?".  But, I think he's also weighing his options about saying yes or no... and he's also probably freaked out that Randall happens to suggest fishing (since that's his big association with Ennis).

On the other hand, I think Jack has particularly good "gaydar"... so I think he had Randall figured out at the table. 

Ennis, on the other hand, during the main "maybe Texas" scene in question, seems to be (in part) worrying about "gaydar" in another way.  Worried about how people are starting to perceive him.  And, it really is interesting that here we almost hear Ennis admit that he understands that he's gay or at least "different."



           Ennis's immediate reaction to Jack's proposal to move to Texas was not about their
relationship.  It was about his relationship to his daughters.  He said "Maybe you could convince
Alma to let you and Lureen to adopt the girls." " Then money would rain down from L.D. Newsome,
and we could all live together herdin sheep."  I think he was trying to discuss his newly discovered
queer status.  How much other people could tell about his queerness just by looking.  He was
still afraid of being found out.  Then Jack again mentioned his moving near him, and that was an
irritant.  He didnt want to discuss them living together.  Therefor the anger he displayed.  Basically
"I dont want to go into that again.  I was wondering about the awareness of others to us.  Me and
you as QUEERS."  That i think was the conversation that he wanted to get into.  And Jack angered
him by bringing up the same thing HE had always wanted.  Thereby making him angry.

Now further than that we can go int all the symbolism.  The dropping the bucket, and the
things that might have been getting away.  Or the fact that it was water under the bridge or
on down river.  However you wish to catagorise it.  Jack once again foiled, and stomping off
this time because of his plans being stunted yet one more time.  I believe it was showing how
they both had the same issues that stopped them in the beginning.  Nothing solved nothing
changed.  Yet again.  They didnt talk to each other with intent, on listening to the others ideas,
but at each other.  With their own agenda in mind period.

Hey Janice!  I think this post is great.  I do think this scene illustrates just how much Ennis and Jack are stuck on their own issues and are almost speaking passed one another or at cross purposes.  This scene really strongly demonstrates how much of a strain their relationship is under given the conditions placed on it.


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Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2008, 04:59:24 pm »
Jack the eternal optimist is frequently looking for any excuse to see more of Ennis, he thinks he sees an opening in some comments Ennis made in 1977 that to me frankly sounded paranoid. This was a characteristic of their relationship starting in 1967 when Jack first mentions the "cow and calf operation" and Ennis told him that was not realistic - again showing the same fearful paranoia.

Back in 1975 Jack drove all the way up to WY after hearing that Alma had divorced Ennis in the hope/expectation that Ennis would finally be ready to move in together him. Somehow Jack didn't contact Ennis before the trip to see if his hopes were realistic, so there is something sadly touching about Jack's delusions about his future with Ennis. Hope Springs Eternal For Jack / Fear Wells Up Eternal For Ennis

By 1977 Jack was frustrated enough with Ennis's refusals and Ennis was frustrated enough with Jack's pushing that both lashed out at each other.
To me personally it is one of the sadder scenes in the film, as it is similar to some of the conversations I had with Chris in the 1980's.

Was a move down to Childress likely on Ennis's part? No, what would Ennis do in Childress Co? Other than Jack he had no connections in the area, no work history, it would have been tough to get a job as a man now in his mid 30's, and it would have meant abandoning his contacts with and responsibilities to his children. Being with Jack more often just wasn't enough of an inducement. Also, Ennis resented Jack's relatively comfortable life as the husband of a prosperous woman, even if Jack is way on the outside of the Newsome family and is humiliated from time to time. Ennis would have seen much of his relative independence from Jack sacrificed if he moved to Texas.

On the whole it would have been much more realistic for Jack to move back up to WY. Jack had many connections in WY, and maybe he could have still gotten that walking away money from the "old sonnovabitch" L.D. And Ennis had to be asking himself that question, if Jack needs to see me so badly, why doesn't he move back up to his home here in WY?

Offline Lynne

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2008, 05:09:07 pm »
To me this scene is pretty complex and I think it starts with Ennis asking Jack if things are 'normal' between him and Lureen - if she ever suspects.  Jack pauses a bit there and nods.  Ennis appears to take him at his word and continues with asking about if he sometimes thinks other people suspect...

I have the sense here with Jack's hesitation, then silent nod, that things are NOT normal between him and Lureen and that Lureen does suspect.  It reminds me a bit of the 'I'm not queer' scene where Jack says 'Me neither' and averts his gaze.  I think he's lying - not maliciously - his motivation is likely to not give  Ennis more to worry about.  As someone else pointed out, Jack also protects Ennis from the knowledge that Aguirre knew about them.  I have the sense that if Jack had acknowledged that things weren't really 'normal' with Lureen, he would have encouraged Ennis to open up more about his experiences with Alma and his fears.

So even though they're talking, I don't think they're communicating.  And Ennis' derisive response to Jack's 'Maybe Texas?' suggestion shows his frustration that Jack isn't really hearing him...We get another 'Jack F-ing Twist' as Ennis chases the bucket down the stream.
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2008, 05:21:12 pm »
To me this scene is pretty complex and I think it starts with Ennis asking Jack if things are 'normal' between him and Lureen - if she ever suspects.  Jack pauses a bit there and nods.  Ennis appears to take him at his word and continues with asking about if he sometimes thinks other people suspect...

I have the sense here with Jack's hesitation, then silent nod, that things are NOT normal between him and Lureen and that Lureen does suspect.  It reminds me a bit of the 'I'm not queer' scene where Jack says 'Me neither' and averts his gaze.  I think he's lying - not maliciously - his motivation is likely to not give  Ennis more to worry about.  As someone else pointed out, Jack also protects Ennis from the knowledge that Aguirre knew about them.  I have the sense that if Jack had acknowledged that things weren't really 'normal' with Lureen, he would have encouraged Ennis to open up more about his experiences with Alma and his fears.

So even though they're talking, I don't think they're communicating.  And Ennis' derisive response to Jack's 'Maybe Texas?' suggestion shows his frustration that Jack isn't really hearing him...We get another 'Jack F-ing Twist' as Ennis chases the bucket down the stream.

Yes, I agree that there's already something notable about Jack's reply to the "normal" question from the very beginning of the conversation. 

The whole question of how Jack and Ennis communicate (or fail to communicate) is pretty interesting.

When their relationship is still at the friend/budding-romance stage... their communication is pretty good.  Actually, the scene where Jack listens to Ennis say more than "he's spoke in a year" seems to show that Ennis is already super comfortable with Jack and is in the process of making him a confidant.  Jack's ability to make Ennis laugh (when Jack understands that it's important to provide a little humor and lightheartedness to Ennis's rough situation) is also an instance of great, and very happy communication.

I think it might even be reasonable to say that from the beginning, Ennis's sense that he can talk to Jack pretty freely (by Ennis's standards at least) is one of the big attractions that Ennis feels towards Jack.

And, from there things get way more complex... and the complexity seems to really be signaled with the "I'm not queer" discussion between TS1 and TS2.


I wonder if this "maybe Texas" conversation is the second side of the palindrome (or ink-blot) for the "I'm not queer" scene,  in terms of BBM's filmic structure.


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Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2008, 05:37:29 pm »
Yes, I agree that there's already something notable about Jack's reply to the "normal" question from the very beginning of the conversation. 

The whole question of how Jack and Ennis communicate (or fail to communicate) is pretty interesting.

When their relationship is still at the friend/budding-romance stage... their communication is pretty good.  Actually, the scene where Jack listens to Ennis say more than "he's spoke in a year" seems to show that Ennis is already super comfortable with Jack and is in the process of making him a confidant.  Jack's ability to make Ennis laugh (when Jack understands that it's important to provide a little humor and lightheartedness to Ennis's rough situation) is also an instance of great, and very happy communication.

I think it might even be reasonable to say that from the beginning, Ennis's sense that he can talk to Jack pretty freely (by Ennis's standards at least) is one of the big attractions that Ennis feels towards Jack.

And, from there things get way more complex... and the complexity seems to really be signaled with the "I'm not queer" discussion between TS1 and TS2.


I wonder if this "maybe Texas" conversation is the second side of the palindrome (or ink-blot) for the "I'm not queer" scene,  in terms of BBM's filmic structure.


I like that point!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2008, 05:53:46 pm »
I like that point!

Well, thanks for reviving the whole ink-blot/ palindrome concept recently Bud.  8)

I think it's a really important and interesting concept to recognize when thinking about BBM.


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Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2008, 06:37:25 pm »
Great thread, and great posts.......

I have just been thinking of the sheer frustrations Ennis must have bee feeling since Alma had confronted him after the Thanksgiving dinner. I dont know how long it was between that and the scene by the river, but it would have been bottled up inside Ennis all that time, no one to talk to about it, just time to go over and over it in his own mind, so the chance finally to spill it out into words with Jack, to hopefully get some comfort or logic from Jack about it all, and then wham, Jack starts on about his own agenda of Ennis moving to Texas to be closer to him......That wasn't what Ennis had been waiting for all this time, he wanted to focus the discussion on what he had been bottling up all that time, and in some ways, Jack turned the conversation around and that just made Ennis explode....in fact, what Jack was suggesting was more or less gonna bring what the two of them had, more out into the open....so here was Ennis still trying to hide it, and worried about what people might notice and Jack's solution, was come down to Texas and dont let it bother you who knows....

I think Ennis thought, he was the only one carrying all this frustration about their relationship, Jack seemed comfortable in his marriage, financially, and also with his own sexuality, and yet truthfully, he was as tormented and unhappy as Ennis was....Jack's solution seemed easy, just set up house together and everything would be OK, Ennis couldn't imagine that it could be that easy and found 100 reasons why it couldn't be.
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Offline BBM-Cat

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2008, 06:38:48 pm »

I have the sense here with Jack's hesitation, then silent nod, that things are NOT normal between him and Lureen and that Lureen does suspect.  It reminds me a bit of the 'I'm not queer' scene where Jack says 'Me neither' and averts his gaze. 

I definitely agree with you there Lynne, this is one scene that always bothers me and seems like such a tragedy. A tragedy because Jack really misses the opportunity to communicate with, and reassure Ennis by 'normalizing' his thoughts, feelings, and experiences (as a queer man). Instead of reassuring Ennis that he too sometimes wonders if people 'know' about him, Jack nods that everything is 'normal' between him and Lureen, and he offers no support for Ennis' feelings that other people 'know' or 'suspect' him being queer.  By Jack nodding in agreement that things are 'normal', it only serves to escalate Ennis' anxiety, confirming in Ennis' own mind that something indeed must be terribly wrong with him if he cannot maintain 'normal' sexual relations with Alma, and that he has these feelings or beliefs that other people 'know' about him. I think that by the end of that "conversation", when Jack makes his seemingly innocuous remark about 'getting out of there' and moving to 'maybe Texas', Ennis already felt defensive, alienated in his experience, and lashed out with sarcasm.

It's a scene I truly wish had played out differently.
Six-word Stories:  ~Jack: Lightning Flat, lightning love, flat denied   ~Ennis: Open space: flat tire, tire iron?

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2008, 08:54:03 pm »
Well, yes, Alma explains that she figured things out about the fishing trips, the note, etc. 

But, also Ennis is now worried about "people on the pavement" looking at him "suspicious" like "they know."  I do think Ennis is worried that folks are somehow able to figure him out by the way he looks (or something like that).

I definitely think you're right that Jack simply lives without at much fear as Ennis, even when it comes to the issue of sexuality.




I agree, however there is a revealing sentence in the story that I think indicates Ennis has been giving some thought,albeit abstract to how the 2 of them could be together.In the motel scene Ennis says "I goddamn hate it that your'e going to drive away in the mornin and I"m goin back to work.-----"shit I have been lookin at people on the street.This happen a other people? What the hell do they do?"Is he looking to Jack as the more experienced to provide him with the answer?

It seems that Ennis must have some inkling,no matter how primitive or buried within his psyche that others have experienced what he and Jack have.He must have come at least partly to terms with his own feelings,otherwise why does he ponder what other people do. Interesting too is the fact that he has been thinking of this in the 4 years before he meets up with Jack again.
Equally revealing is jack"s reply ,'I don't know what they do,maybe go to Denver.'and I don't give a flying fuck"So if Ennis was hoping for some solution from Jack he is gravely disappointed,Equally puzzling to me is why jack mentions to ennis that he thinks they may have been seen that summer.Hardly the way to quash any fears inherent in the deep recesses of the mind of Ennis.
I think for Jack the place is irrelevant,he just has a pipe dream of some utopia where they can be together,period. Ennis has obviously given some thought as to how others manage it.A point which seemessd at odds with his normal laconic self.Maybe the same can be applied to him as his daughter,he does not say much ,but what he does sure is telling.
I think one of the most poignant sentences in the book is when Ennis reveals to Jack that after they come down from the mountain and he was sick,"took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn,t a let you out a my sights.Too late then by a long,long while"So he had been searching for answers for a year!!

My interpretation then is that Ennis gave up when he realised why he had been sick,and yet could not silence the nagging doubts as to if it happened to others ,what did they do about it,Jack of course is flippant in his "go to Denver" What puzzles me is when Ennis is for once being painfully honest and revealing his innermost thoughts,why does Jack not jump at the opportunity.Is it that he is still processing what Ennis said about it being too late by a long long time?

Well those are my thoughts and feel free to disagree,I think Texas is maybe as throwaway as Denver.Fundamentally I feel they both realise the ship has long since sailed.Having realised that ,all the frustrations of the years erupt.

Sorry if I have digressed a little,I just thought the motel scene in the book maybe casts some light on the film scene.


Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2008, 10:06:10 pm »
I agree, however there is a revealing sentence in the story that I think indicates Ennis has been giving some thought,albeit abstract to how the 2 of them could be together.In the motel scene Ennis says "I goddamn hate it that your'e going to drive away in the mornin and I"m goin back to work.-----"shit I have been lookin at people on the street.This happen a other people? What the hell do they do?"Is he looking to Jack as the more experienced to provide him with the answer?

It seems that Ennis must have some inkling,no matter how primitive or buried within his psyche that others have experienced what he and Jack have.He must have come at least partly to terms with his own feelings,otherwise why does he ponder what other people do. Interesting too is the fact that he has been thinking of this in the 4 years before he meets up with Jack again.
Equally revealing is jack"s reply ,'I don't know what they do,maybe go to Denver.'and I don't give a flying fuck"So if Ennis was hoping for some solution from Jack he is gravely disappointed,Equally puzzling to me is why jack mentions to ennis that he thinks they may have been seen that summer.Hardly the way to quash any fears inherent in the deep recesses of the mind of Ennis.
I think for Jack the place is irrelevant,he just has a pipe dream of some utopia where they can be together,period. Ennis has obviously given some thought as to how others manage it.A point which seemessd at odds with his normal laconic self.Maybe the same can be applied to him as his daughter,he does not say much ,but what he does sure is telling.
I think one of the most poignant sentences in the book is when Ennis reveals to Jack that after they come down from the mountain and he was sick,"took me about a year a figure out it was that I shouldn,t a let you out a my sights.Too late then by a long,long while"So he had been searching for answers for a year!!

My interpretation then is that Ennis gave up when he realised why he had been sick,and yet could not silence the nagging doubts as to if it happened to others ,what did they do about it,Jack of course is flippant in his "go to Denver" What puzzles me is when Ennis is for once being painfully honest and revealing his innermost thoughts,why does Jack not jump at the opportunity.Is it that he is still processing what Ennis said about it being too late by a long long time?

Well those are my thoughts and feel free to disagree,I think Texas is maybe as throwaway as Denver.Fundamentally I feel they both realise the ship has long since sailed.Having realised that ,all the frustrations of the years erupt.

Sorry if I have digressed a little,I just thought the motel scene in the book maybe casts some light on the film scene.




Hey Bud!

Great post!  Well, things certainly become more complex once the story is added to the interpretive mix here.  It's interesting to try to imagine where and how the filmmakers and screenplay writers displaced some of the conversations and details from the story into the film at various places.  I think it's pretty clear that a lot of the details that we learn in the long "motel scene" in the story provide material for different scenes in the film.  And, I think it's interesting to compare how story-Ennis seems compared to film-Ennis when this comes up.  I think you're totally right that story-Ennis was quite self-aware by the time of the motel scene compared to film-Ennis in the movie version of the motel scene.  Yes, I think in the story motel scene Ennis is quite open in explaining his feelings (without saying the word love, of course).  I think film-Ennis has a much slower evolution emotionally.  I think film-Ennis is in love with Jack by the time of the motel scene in the movie... but he may not be totally conscious of it yet (maybe).

So, I can certainly see how this later "maybe Texas" film scene could be a displacement of the conversation you highlight in your post.  That makes sense to me.

And it is really striking the similarities in Jack's language... in the story it's "maybe go to Denver."  And in the film it's "maybe Texas".  These are great observations optom3! 

But, I do think in the film that Jack is still really truly hoping that Ennis might be convinced at least to move closer.  In this "maybe Texas" scene I think he's hoping that he's realized that maybe he can use Ennis's fear in a way that could maybe, finally, bring them closer together.  I don't think Texas is a "throw away" answer at all.  I think this is meant to demonstrate Jack's persistent hope.  I think Jack gets so upset at the end of the scene because Ennis squashes down his hope again.

And, about the Denver answer... LOL... I love that answer in the story.  It's one of the rare sort of light moments.  I'm not sure that it's flippant... I think it's sort of realistic.

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Offline Fran

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2008, 10:51:10 pm »
  But, also Ennis is now worried about "people on the pavement" looking at him "suspicious" like "they know."  I do think Ennis is worried that folks are somehow able to figure him out by the way he looks (or something like that).

Maybe Ennis is worried about the "people on the pavement" because, at that point of the story, not only does Alma know his secret but Monroe, too.  (Even if Alma had never uttered a word of her suspicions about Ennis to Monroe before that time, Monroe would have known what was what on Thanksgiving.)  Monroe works at the grocery store and probably knows lots of people.  After that Thanksgiving, Ennis couldn't help but wonder what people were saying about him behind his back.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2008, 10:55:24 pm »
Maybe Ennis is worried about the "people on the pavement" because, at that point of the story, not only does Alma know his secret but Monroe, too.  (Even if Alma had never uttered a word of her suspicions about Ennis to Monroe before that time, Monroe would have known what was what on Thanksgiving.)  Monroe works at the grocery store and probably knows lots of people.  After that Thanksgiving, Ennis couldn't help but wonder what people were saying about him behind his back.

Yes, I'm sure he's a little worried about Alma having told Monroe... and now of course he's probably wary of her capability of telling other folks if she feels like it.  Of course, Alma doesn't (or at least it seems like she doesn't from what we know of the situation).  So, that's a nice thing about Alma.

Ennis is also aware that Jack asked "about 10 different people" where Ennis had moved following the divorce.  So, I think a lot of things add up to making Ennis feel very worried about random people knowing his secret.


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Offline brokeplex

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2008, 11:08:12 pm »

Ennis is also aware that Jack asked "about 10 different people" where Ennis had moved following the divorce.  So, I think a lot of things add up to making Ennis feel very worried about random people knowing his secret.


yes, I had never considered that, that probably made Ennis nervous when Jack told him that.

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #24 on: February 18, 2008, 11:28:09 pm »

Hey Bud!

Great post!  Well, things certainly become more complex once the story is added to the interpretive mix here.  It's interesting to try to imagine where and how the filmmakers and screenplay writers displaced some of the conversations and details from the story into the film at various places.  I think it's pretty clear that a lot of the details that we learn in the long "motel scene" in the story provide material for different scenes in the film.  And, I think it's interesting to compare how story-Ennis seems compared to film-Ennis when this comes up.  I think you're totally right that story-Ennis was quite self-aware by the time of the motel scene compared to film-Ennis in the movie version of the motel scene.  Yes, I think in the story motel scene Ennis is quite open in explaining his feelings (without saying the word love, of course).  I think film-Ennis has a much slower evolution emotionally.  I think film-Ennis is in love with Jack by the time of the motel scene in the movie... but he may not be totally conscious of it yet (maybe).

So, I can certainly see how this later "maybe Texas" film scene could be a displacement of the conversation you highlight in your post.  That makes sense to me.

And it is really striking the similarities in Jack's language... in the story it's "maybe go to Denver."  And in the film it's "maybe Texas".  These are great observations optom3! 

But, I do think in the film that Jack is still really truly hoping that Ennis might be convinced at least to move closer.  In this "maybe Texas" scene I think he's hoping that he's realized that maybe he can use Ennis's fear in a way that could maybe, finally, bring them closer together.  I don't think Texas is a "throw away" answer at all.  I think this is meant to demonstrate Jack's persistent hope.  I think Jack gets so upset at the end of the scene because Ennis squashes down his hope again.

And, about the Denver answer... LOL... I love that answer in the story.  It's one of the rare sort of light moments.  I'm not sure that it's flippant... I think it's sort of realistic.


I do  to some extent agree that Jack still retains some vestige of hope. What concerns me is the conundrum in rhe story (motel scene)when he tells Ennis he thinks they may have been seen.If Ennis then concludes (and who knows) that even in their idyllic summer when they felt so carefree,they were being observed,what hope elsewhere.I just wish Jack had really listened to the ,what do other people do.Reading between the lines I suspect he was so desperate just to have some more time with Ennis once they left the motel that he missed completely the significance of that simple statement.
Having missed out on that he continues to nurture his dream of a life together and would seem to take every opportunity,to yet again broach the subject.

I find it so full of pathos that no matter how many times he is rebuffed he continues to bounce back for more.However as the film progresses,to me at least there seems to an inexorable desperation in his suggestions.It is almost as if he knows the answer,but will still use any excuse to introduce the idea.maybe even he has come to the realisation that it is not to be.

I keep comming back to the same conclusion in both story and film .that the whole premise hinges on the bittersweet regret of lost opportunities,whilst simultaneously wishing that at least in the story Jack had listened more closely to the sub text.Still got to love him for perseverance against all odds.The other thing that puzzles me is when he spends so much time travelling to meet Ennis.No distance seems too great,as witness the visit ,post divorce note,why does he suggest Texas which would involve Ennis doing the travelling.has he finally had enough of the effort all seeming to be one way.

Ironic then that the one (I think) card from Ennis to Jack re the nov. meeting is the harbinger of doom.Well yet again I seem to have asked myself more questions than resolved any issues.
What a great thing this Brokeback is.Never ever have I so analysed and dissected any film or book.It is such a treat to have an author who rather than spoon feeding us every detail,allows us to ponder and reflect on all the various connotations for ourselves.

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #25 on: February 18, 2008, 11:41:51 pm »
Did Alma talk to anyone about her husband (Ennis) kissing Jack??

Any proof??

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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #26 on: February 18, 2008, 11:42:56 pm »
I do  to some extent agree that Jack still retains some vestige of hope. What concerns me is the conundrum in rhe story (motel scene)when he tells Ennis he thinks they may have been seen.If Ennis then concludes (and who knows) that even in their idyllic summer when they felt so carefree,they were being observed,what hope elsewhere.I just wish Jack had really listened to the ,what do other people do.Reading between the lines I suspect he was so desperate just to have some more time with Ennis once they left the motel that he missed completely the significance of that simple statement.
Having missed out on that he continues to nurture his dream of a life together and would seem to take every opportunity,to yet again broach the subject.

I find it so full of pathos that no matter how many times he is rebuffed he continues to bounce back for more.However as the film progresses,to me at least there seems to an inexorable desperation in his suggestions.It is almost as if he knows the answer,but will still use any excuse to introduce the idea.maybe even he has come to the realisation that it is not to be.

I keep comming back to the same conclusion in both story and film .that the whole premise hinges on the bittersweet regret of lost opportunities,whilst simultaneously wishing that at least in the story Jack had listened more closely to the sub text.Still got to love him for perseverance against all odds.The other thing that puzzles me is when he spends so much time travelling to meet Ennis.No distance seems too great,as witness the visit ,post divorce note,why does he suggest Texas which would involve Ennis doing the travelling.has he finally had enough of the effort all seeming to be one way.

Ironic then that the one (I think) card from Ennis to Jack re the nov. meeting is the harbinger of doom.Well yet again I seem to have asked myself more questions than resolved any issues.
What a great thing this Brokeback is.Never ever have I so analysed and dissected any film or book.It is such a treat to have an author who rather than spoon feeding us every detail,allows us to ponder and reflect on all the various connotations for ourselves.



It's interesting that film-Jack never is shown to tell Ennis that Aguirre had observed them.  I don't think film-Ennis would have been able to handle that well at all.  Jack was very careful about what he said to Ennis and how he communicated with him once he realized how nervous and afraid Ennis could be (I'm still talking about the film here).  It seems that the "low startle point" horse could really be a metaphor for Ennis.

The whole question of how and how well Jack and Ennis communicate is a pretty important issue for this "Maybe Texas" scene.

And, on Jack and hope... I don't think Jack lost hope until maybe, maybe the moment during the lakeside argument towards the end where he all of a sudden uses the past tense to refer to his "better idea."  When Jack says, "I did once"... this really sets Ennis off because all of a sudden it really seems clear that their relationship may be in jeopardy.

p.s.  I'm still sort of blown away by the "maybe go to Denver" and "maybe Texas" parallel.  I really had never thought of that before.  Such a great observation optom3!

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Offline nakymaton

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2008, 11:59:23 pm »
One thing in that scene that always gets me: "Jack fuckin' Twist" echoes Ennis at the reunion scene. But the tone is so different.
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2008, 12:02:59 am »
One thing in that scene that always gets me: "Jack fuckin' Twist" echoes Ennis at the reunion scene. But the tone is so different.

Yeah, absolutely.  The evolution of the tone in Ennis's voice with that nickname is very telling... of course reaching peak intensity during the lake argument.  :(

Mel, how do you interpret story-Jack's little quip about Denver?  I've always just thought it was cute, but now that I'm thinking about it in terms of this sort of parallel "maybe Texas" film scene, I wonder if there's more to the Denver line than I had thought before.


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Offline nakymaton

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2008, 12:16:34 am »
Mel, how do you interpret story-Jack's little quip about Denver?  I've always just thought it was cute, but now that I'm thinking about it in terms of this sort of parallel "maybe Texas" film scene, I wonder if there's more to the Denver line than I had thought before.

I've always thought of it as a indication of how impossible Jack and Ennis found it, to be simultaneously rural men and to be gay. "Maybe move to Denver" sounds to me like "maybe move to the Moon" - like Denver is completely foreign from their existence. Denver might be part of the West, but a city is no place for a ranch hand.

I've always found the line to be incredibly sad.
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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2008, 12:24:02 am »
I've always thought of it as a indication of how impossible Jack and Ennis found it, to be simultaneously rural men and to be gay. "Maybe move to Denver" sounds to me like "maybe move to the Moon" - like Denver is completely foreign from their existence. Denver might be part of the West, but a city is no place for a ranch hand.

I've always found the line to be incredibly sad.

Well, that's a good point... that the Denver suggestion does seem to indicate that Jack at least perceives a disconnect between rural life and being gay.  I guess it is sad.

It's interesting that with the Denver comment it does seem entirely hypothetical or rhetorical (or something like that).  But, with the "maybe Texas" in the movie, there seems to be a lot of real intention there.


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Offline Brokeback_Dev

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2008, 12:55:27 am »
I just think its sad that Ennis wont even consider Jack's thought and blows off the idea of moving to Texas.   And he doesn't have to be so rude about it.  Jack wants to be happy with Ennis and have him close to him.  Moving to Texas is not such a bad idea..  I mean what does Ennis have holding him to Riverton besides his girls?  Nothing.  I don't understand why wont consider it.  I mean he can still see the girls on visitation.  They had that then.

It is interesting that Ennis is finally acknowledging his homosexuality and his love for Jack.  Its like Ennis finally comes out even if it is to his gay lover.  He's admitting their relationship is more than just a high altitude fuck once or twice a year even if thats all he has to give to Jack.   

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2008, 12:56:23 am »
The Denver line is immediately followed by "and I don't give a flying fuck". Proving what we've been saying about this scene (that seems to echo the book dialogue): Jack & Ennis, given their different life experiences, just can't relate over this point. Jack is just less willing to let fear inhibit him. But the book is the book and the film is the film, and this thread is about a scene from the film...


I think their exchange by the stream is really interesting because for the first time, Jack is relatively quiet.

ENNIS  You and Lureen, it's uh… normal and all?
JACK  Sure.
ENNIS  She don't ever suspect?
JACK  [silence]


That really struck me!  Maybe Jack just gave his marriage to Lureen as little conscious thought as possible(?) (echoed later in his "never given it any thought" line).  As Jack & Lureen's inattention to the issues in their marriage (aka denial) may have been the main thing making it possible for their marriage to work.

But personally, my guess is that Jack wasn't being fully truthful here, because he's never wanted to add to Ennis' fears.  But interestingly, more truthfulness on Jack's part may have been the better solution, like with Aguirre. (If Ennis had known that Aguirre knew, in the long run he may have felt a bit safer, since Aguirre evidently told no one.)

I love your point, BBM-Cat, that Jack's non-empathy is a big mistake.  Ennis truly feels alone in his dilemma (an island indeed), the perfect setup for him to get together with Cassie in the next scene.  How can Ennis refuse when the perfect cover (or at least her feet) falls right in his lap?


Great thread and great posts, everybody.

Offline Katie77

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2008, 02:09:20 am »
I think when Ennis says "Jack F***ing Twist" when he is in the river....its a reflecton to when he said it when he stood at the top of the stairs....as if he's saying "thats what started this thing again, me saying that, and sometimes I wish I had never started it up again after those four years"....

Of course he is only thinking that way because he is angry with Jack, and angry that they are no closer to getting this thing resolved than they were back then.....
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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2008, 02:16:15 am »
Ennis is also aware that Jack asked "about 10 different people" where Ennis had moved following the divorce.  So, I think a lot of things add up to making Ennis feel very worried about random people knowing his secret.

The funny thing is that had Ennis been less paranoid, he could just as easily have interpreted this the other way. The first nine people Jack asked had no idea where Ennis lived -- that is, they weren't paying as much attention to Ennis as he probably thought they were.


As for the "maybe Texas" scene, I've always thought this was one of two times that Jack could have handled things better. The other being when they're dismantling the camp to leave the mountain.

ENNIS  You and Lureen, it's uh… normal and all?
JACK  Sure.
ENNIS  She don't ever suspect?
JACK  [silence]

Ennis seems like he's reaching out for help. The thing is, in the film Jack doesn't just remain silent -- he shrugs and nods: yeah, it's normal. When clearly, from later scenes, it's not -- he never wants to "dance" with his wife.  Jack is lying about him and Lureen in the "me neither" sense, to protect Ennis. But actually Ennis would benefit from a more honest answer. And then when Jack suggests moving to Texas, he's jumping on the opportunity to push his agenda (understandably!) but leaves Ennis' dilemma unresolved, his worries unsoothed.

Quote
But personally, my guess is that Jack wasn't being fully truthful here, because he's never wanted to add to Ennis' fears.  But interestingly, more truthfulness on Jack's part may have been the better solution, like with Aguirre. (If Ennis had known that Aguirre knew, in the long run he may have felt a bit safer, since Aguirre evidently told no one.)

I love your point, BBM-Cat, that Jack's non-empathy is a big mistake.  Ennis truly feels alone in his dilemma (an island indeed),

Exactly.


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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2008, 02:17:08 am »
Well, that's a good point... that the Denver suggestion does seem to indicate that Jack at least perceives a disconnect between rural life and being gay.  I guess it is sad.

It's interesting that with the Denver comment it does seem entirely hypothetical or rhetorical (or something like that).  But, with the "maybe Texas" in the movie, there seems to be a lot of real intention there.

You're right, people in Wyoming really do think of Denver that way. It might as well be Hollywood or Las Vegas. Good thoughts, Amanda, and LauraGigs, I really liked your pointing out how mum Jack is for once!

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #36 on: February 19, 2008, 07:27:08 am »
I guess most of you will disagree with me but I actually see the beginning of this scene as being a positive step for Ennis.

I think that he is beginning to attempt to start trying (phew!) to define his relationship with Jack.  I have always said that I think Ennis started ‘this thing’ as a homophobic man trained to be so by his father. When his relationship with Jack turned sexual, I don’t think that he spent time thinking about what it meant.  I think that he was scared to think about it because of the inevitable conclusion, so any thoughts about Jack were deliberately pushed out.  He loved Jack and missed him (which could be, if you want it to be, rationalised by saying he was his friend and they were alone on the mountain with needs).

Around the campfire, after the reunion scene, he refers to what they have as “this thing [that] grabs hold” as if it is an object, something that they can’t control, with a mind of its own.  By asking Jack about others looking at him “like he knows”, “like they know too” he is referring to that they have as being a part of him, i.e. while looking at him what do they know about him? 

Secondly, Ennis immediately rejects the move to Texas by mentioning his girls.  Ennis is a man of few words and I think that anything he says is to be taken at face value.  He doesn’t, at any point during this conversation, say about it being unsafe.  He talks about the long move from his girls.  He is reminding Jack that it’s not just about them, they can’t just live together as if they were on the mountain as young men.  They have responsibilities now.  Jack hasn’t got it all figured out, like he thinks. 

Regarding the plates flowing down the river, Ennis was holding onto the plates and during the conversation, lets go of them.  He was, for the first time since the reunion scene, entering into a serious discussion with Jack. He was attempting to let go a little at which point, Jack grabbed on.  He asked one question and the conversation ‘ran away’ from him.  The plates, to me, are more about Ennis’ fears of letting go, as if he does, who knows where he'll end up?

Offline souxi

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #37 on: February 19, 2008, 07:53:05 am »
I agree with you Sandy. I think you,ve got that spot on actually. The only thing I don,t agree with is the plates, I think he just dropped em lol. ;D
Why couldn,t it have been like that always? Why couldn,t the world just let them be? :(

Offline Front-Ranger

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #38 on: February 19, 2008, 10:40:15 am »
The only thing I don,t agree with is the plates, I think he just dropped em lol. ;D

Um, it was a bucket floating down the river...if you want to know more about the buckets, go here please!

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,569.0/all.html

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2008, 11:06:36 am »
Yeah, Front-Ranger's theory about buckets really fits this scene, IMO. The bucket represents Ennis' relationships -- for example, when fighting with Alma he kicks a bucket full of ashes -- and in this case he's letting his relationship with Jack slip away.

Sandy, good point about this scene showing Ennis attempting to define their relationship. The very fact that he fears people "know" indicates that he understands there is something TO know. It's really solid evidence that, certainly at this point (though I would argue, the whole time) he understands that he's homosexual. And I like the idea that the knowledge of the people on the pavement is also about the knowledge in his own head. (If that's what you're saying. That's how I read it, anyway.) Ennis so carefully compartmentalizes what he knows about himself -- his love for Jack is in one box; his belief that homosexuality is wrong is in another -- that it's almost like they're the thoughts of different people within his own mind.

Ennis is a man of few words and I think that anything he says is to be taken at face value.

I don't, however, quite agree with this. IMO, Ennis rarely says what's actually on his mind. In this case, yes, he wouldn't want to move far from his girls, and they are genuinely important. But just like in the post-divorce scene, I don't think it's really all about the girls. He just can't commit to Jack.

Here's another issue. It's odd of him to say everyone "on the pavement" looks at him, rather than everyone on the street. What's that about? Is there a connection between his saying that and the much earlier scene where he's laying pavement with Timmy?





Offline Sandy

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2008, 11:40:21 am »
And I like the idea that the knowledge of the people on the pavement is also about the knowledge in his own head. (If that's what you're saying. That's how I read it, anyway.)

Exactly what I'm saying! 

Ennis rarely says what's actually on his mind.
 

Yep, we differ here.  At the post divorce scene, he says he had the girls this weekend which he did.  The most telling line for me was when he said that he didn’t know what to say.  He couldn't think of anything to say to heal Jack's hurt therefore he didn't say anything.  When he did apologise, he said to Jack "]I'm sorry]..you know I am".  Those brief words told Jack everything. Of course it was horrible for Jack to hear, but it was honest.


Offline souxi

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2008, 11:48:15 am »
Um, it was a bucket floating down the river...if you want to know more about the buckets, go here please!

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,569.0/all.html



Oh sorry I,m sure. Bucket, plate who cares?  Picky.  ::) ::) ::) And I still say he just dropped it. How can dropping a bucket in the water mean anything significant? Or is there something mysterious about buckets I,m not aware of? hmmmmmm.  ;) ;D

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2008, 12:04:44 pm »
Oh sorry I,m sure. Bucket, plate who cares?  Picky.  ::) ::) ::) And I still say he just dropped it. How can dropping a bucket in the water mean anything significant? Or is there something mysterious about buckets I,m not aware of? hmmmmmm.  ;) ;D

Sure there is. Maybe if you read the thread Front-Ranger linked? But that's not everybody's cup of tea. Some people are just not (that much) into symbolism, and that's completely ok. You're not the only one who disagrees about things like buckets, metal or whatever.  :)

Offline souxi

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2008, 12:08:42 pm »
Sure there is. Maybe if you read the thread Front-Ranger linked? But that's not everybody's cup of tea. Some people are just not (that much) into symbolism, and that's completely ok. You're not the only one who disagrees about things like buckets, metal or whatever.  :)

Errrm, no I,m not really. So tell me what does a bucket symbolise then? I always just thought it was something you put water in, obviously not lol. :)

Offline souxi

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2008, 12:10:50 pm »
I just read the link. Blimey you guys sure see a lot in the humble old bucket. I shall have to pay more attention to buckets in future obviously.  ;D

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #45 on: February 19, 2008, 12:37:27 pm »
Yep, we differ here.  At the post divorce scene, he says he had the girls this weekend which he did.  The most telling line for me was when he said that he didn’t know what to say.  He couldn't think of anything to say to heal Jack's hurt therefore he didn't say anything.  When he did apologise, he said to Jack "]I'm sorry]..you know I am".  Those brief words told Jack everything. Of course it was horrible for Jack to hear, but it was honest.

Yeah, but having the girls is partly a convenient excuse. I'm not saying he should have gotten rid of them and shirked his parental duties. But he could have told Jack to wait around, or whispered that indeed his divorce DID mean their relationship could move to a new level, or invited him back the following weekend, whatever. Instead, he kept nervously glancing at the passing white pickup. He's sorry to Jack not because he has other plans that weekend, but because he can't be what Jack wants him to be.

I just read the link. Blimey you guys sure see a lot in the humble old bucket. I shall have to pay more attention to buckets in future obviously.  ;D

Souxi, when I first saw the subject line of that thread almost two years ago, I just rolled my eyes and thought, yeah, right, buckets -- aren't we getting a little carried away? I didn't even read the thread! But finally I did and was immediately convinced. The presence and meaning of buckets and coffee pots are not accidental.

Needless to say that my reaction to that thread was before I knew Front-Ranger very well, so I wasn't aware of her incredible acuity at detecting symbolism.



Offline Penthesilea

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #46 on: February 19, 2008, 12:43:21 pm »
I think that he is beginning to attempt to start trying (phew!) to define his relationship with Jack. 

Actually, I agree very much with what you are saying. To me, Ennis clearly has an intention in this conversation. He wants to talk about them/their relationship/his fears. He asks three times. First he asks whether everything between Jack and Lureen is normal. Not: if everything is all right, going well, they're happy together or whatever. No, he asks whether it's normal. Why should it not be normal? Because Jack is gay.
After Jack reacts only casually (and lying, I agree with this opinion, and I also agree he lies with good intentions, to not upset Ennis), Ennis asks a second time, he digs deeper "She never suspects?" Again: what could she suspect? Well, the same thing Alma found out.

Again, Jack just shrugs it off. Ennis then really lets his hair down in his third attempt, the question about people on the pavement knowing .

I think this scene was a rare moment of truthfulness and openness for Ennis, he's practically saying they're gay. I think the "not queer" denial is past him at this point. He has figured it out. He turns to the only human being in the world he can approach with his thoughts and fears. He's looking for reassurance and guidance from Jack - but Jack has his own (understandable) agenda and fails to react appropriately. Missed chance, again.

Offline Sandy

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #47 on: February 19, 2008, 01:32:11 pm »
He asks three times.

I wonder how Ennis would have reacted if Jack had said, "No, it's not normal-normal is with you", "yes, she suspects there's someone else" and "no, I don't think anyone who sees me automatically knows". 

Would Ennis have moved to Texas?

Offline souxi

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #48 on: February 19, 2008, 01:51:00 pm »
Yeah, but having the girls is partly a convenient excuse. I'm not saying he should have gotten rid of them and shirked his parental duties. But he could have told Jack to wait around, or whispered that indeed his divorce DID mean their relationship could move to a new level, or invited him back the following weekend, whatever. Instead, he kept nervously glancing at the passing white pickup. He's sorry to Jack not because he has other plans that weekend, but because he can't be what Jack wants him to be.

Souxi, when I first saw the subject line of that thread almost two years ago, I just rolled my eyes and thought, yeah, right, buckets -- aren't we getting a little carried away? I didn't even read the thread! But finally I did and was immediately convinced. The presence and meaning of buckets and coffee pots are not accidental.

Needless to say that my reaction to that thread was before I knew Front-Ranger very well, so I wasn't aware of her incredible acuity at detecting symbolism.




Well we,ll just have to agree to differ here, because even though I have read the link, I,m afraid my eyes DID roll, and I thought, well it doesn,t matter what I thought lol, but suffice to say, the only thing symbolic to me about Ennis dropping the bucket into the water is that he had a clumsy moment and dropped the bucket, end of. And what on earth do coffee pots symbolise then? I realise I must be incredibly dense, but I don,t geddit, sorry. It,s just a coffee pot with coffee in it. I seem to remember a similar discussion about Jack and Ennis,s hats and the fact that they were a different colour? Again all that meant to me was that they had different tastes in colour, I don,t see anything deep and meaningfull in it. I,m really dull and uninteresting arn,t I lol. ;D

Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2008, 02:14:10 pm »
Well we,ll just have to agree to differ here, because even though I have read the link, I,m afraid my eyes DID roll, and I thought, well it doesn,t matter what I thought lol, but suffice to say, the only thing symbolic to me about Ennis dropping the bucket into the water is that he had a clumsy moment and dropped the bucket, end of. And what on earth do coffee pots symbolise then? I realise I must be incredibly dense, but I don,t geddit, sorry. It,s just a coffee pot with coffee in it. I seem to remember a similar discussion about Jack and Ennis,s hats and the fact that they were a different colour? Again all that meant to me was that they had different tastes in colour, I don,t see anything deep and meaningfull in it.

Well, different people put different levels of faith in ideas about symbolism and metaphors in Brokeback Mountain. But you're talking to someone who puts a lot of faith in them. For several reasons: 1) As a writer and onetime literature major, I know that serious authors absolutely do weave symbolism and metaphors into their work, very deliberately. Annie Proulx is a very serious writer. There's no reason the same can't be true of movies, and Ang Lee is a serious director. 2) I've been discussing this stuff here and at imdb for two years, and IMO it all works really well and makes a lot of sense. There are just too many things that fit together neatly to dismiss it as someone's wild imagination, IMO. 3) Annie Proulx herself has talked about having thought about symbolism and imagery and mythical allusions while she was writing BBM. Front-Ranger and brokebackjack have posted elsewhere (can't remember where, sorry) about things she said along these lines when they went to see her in person.

For more discussion about the general topic of symbolism and metaphors in BBM, and whether or not they really exist, see this thread:

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,14581.0.html

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I,m really dull and uninteresting arn,t I lol. ;D

Of course not! Everyone's different.  :)


Offline LauraGigs

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #50 on: February 19, 2008, 02:28:13 pm »
I could never see Ennis moving to Texas, Sandy.  The post-divorce reunion scene (and to a lesser extent, this scene) pretty much make it clear that no extenuating circumstances would have moved Ennis past his fear.


You're right Chrissi; Ennis opens up in an unprecedented way here.  I think Jack is kind of thrown for a loop by this, so he replies with wide-eyed silences and flat little fibs.  Then he proposes a simple solution, which (as Katie pointed out) sounds next to impossible to Ennis.

It's been written that heterosexual couples also tend to (mis)communicate this way:  a woman will lay out open-ended questions; a man will quickly present a solution. Which is disappointing to the woman, b/c she wanted to fully discuss her feelings and get some catharsis and empathy, while the man has immediately jumped into problem-solving mode.  [This is of course based on generalizations; there are variations to this in real life; your mileage may vary, etc.]

Ennis' frustration with this comes out in his rather comical "You're a real thinker there, Jack!"  Because Jack has indeed not thought through all the issues that would come with a move — not the least of which is Ennis' pride, as you pointed out, Brokeplex.


All of this is not to say that Jack should or could have intuited all this and come up with perfectly-phrased, healing words.  An overriding hardship in the tale is that neither is emotionally or verbally equipped to deal with each other's issues here; they're at their best when circumstances — as back on Brokeback in '63 — allowed for snuggling, riding, light conversation and comfortable silence.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2008, 03:37:12 am by LauraGigs »

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #51 on: February 19, 2008, 02:35:52 pm »
Um, it was a bucket floating down the river...if you want to know more about the buckets, go here please!

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,569.0/all.html



Heya Sister Mod,

I just bumped the buckets and coffeepots thread.  ;D


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Offline nakymaton

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #52 on: February 19, 2008, 02:47:16 pm »
Another thought, regarding the "move to Texas" line:

Remember the blue parka scene, earlier in the movie? Lureen asked why Ennis never came down to Texas. In the ""move to Texas" scene, Jack mentions Ennis coming down to Texas after Ennis asks about Lureen.

Makes me wonder if there wasn't some kind of subconscious connection going on in Jack's head. An odd subconscious connection - I mean, would Lureen have invited Ennis to Texas if she knew? (Not that it was an invitation, but that's the only other time anyone mentions Ennis going to Texas. I've thought that Ennis going to Texas was pretty far-fetched - I mean, this is the guy who never travels further than around the coffee pot looking for its handle-- speaking of coffee pot symbolism!)
Watch out. That poster has a low startle point.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #53 on: February 19, 2008, 02:58:16 pm »
Yeah, I think Jack may be growing weary of doing *all* the traveling by the time of the "maybe Texas" scene.

There's a pragmatic aspect to his suggestion.

I don't think Jack would worry at all about what Lureen would think. 


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Offline Penthesilea

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #54 on: February 19, 2008, 03:45:09 pm »
I wonder how Ennis would have reacted if Jack had said, "No, it's not normal-normal is with you", "yes, she suspects there's someone else" and "no, I don't think anyone who sees me automatically knows". 

Would Ennis have moved to Texas?

No. Like Laura and Mel, I think there was no way Ennis had moved to Texas. His girls were not only a welcome excuse (albeit he used them as such), they were a significant reason Ennis never would have moved to Texas. Apart from his girls, Ennis was just - Ennis. All the travelling he done... like Mel already said.

I think no matter how Jack would have reacted, Ennis would not have moved to Texas. And also would not have agreed to "ranching up" with Jack in WY. At least not at this point of time.

But I do think things between them would have (or at least could have) gone better had Jack been able to take the chance Ennis offered him. The toll on their lifes and on their realtionship was not only caused by the times being separated but also by the fact they both didn't know what to make of it. They both didn't have the words to express themselves (and to be fair, for the most time neither the need for it).


Another thing I find interesting is Ennis's speech about Jack and Lureen adopting the girls, raining money from LD Newsome, herding sheep, etc. This thoughts didn't come from nothing. He said those things sarcastically to Jack because he was angry. But why did he exactly say these words? Why mentioning his girls? I think his choice of words shows two things: Ennis wished just as much as Jack for things to be different; he must have given their situation some thoughts (which is already proven by the questions he asked which started the conversation) and maybe even allowed himself some weird daydreams from time to time. Second, even in his wildest dreams it never occurred to him to abandon his daughters. Even the mere thought of moving to Texas (as absurd as it was to him) involved his girls also being in Texas.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #55 on: February 19, 2008, 03:58:32 pm »

But I do think things between them would have (or at least could have) gone better had Jack been able to take the chance Ennis offered him. The toll on their lifes and on their realtionship was not only caused by the times being separated but also by the fact they both didn't know what to make of it. They both didn't have the words to express themselves (and to be fair, for the most time neither the need for it).


Another thing I find interesting is Ennis's speech about Jack and Lureen adopting the girls, raining money from LD Newsome, herding sheep, etc. This thoughts didn't come from nothing. He said those things sarcastically to Jack because he was angry. But why did he exactly say these words? Why mentioning his girls? I think his choice of words shows two things: Ennis wished just as much as Jack for things to be different; he must have given their situation some thoughts (which is already proven by the questions he asked which started the conversation) and maybe even allowed himself some weird daydreams from time to time. Second, even in his wildest dreams it never occurred to him to abandon his daughters. Even the mere thought of moving to Texas (as absurd as it was to him) involved his girls also being in Texas.

Hi Chrissi,

I'm not sure I understand what chance Ennis was really offering Jack.  Sure, it was a chance to talk, but in terms of offering a new solution or idea to the way their relationship was organized... I don't think Ennis was offering much of a chance.

I think what you note here about Ennis's sarcastic remarks here is very good.  I think the metaphors he uses and the bizarre-hypothetical scenario he describes do reveal something about Ennis's own longings and frustrations about being separated from Jack.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Sandy

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #56 on: February 19, 2008, 04:01:09 pm »
I don't think he would have moved to Texas either.  That course of action would just not sit well with my understanding of Ennis.  I think that, even if Jack said he was going to move to the next town, Ennis would struggle to get up the courage to see him in the local pub once a month.  If only we could have seen what the next twenty years would have brought. 

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #57 on: February 19, 2008, 04:43:46 pm »
Hi Chrissi,

I'm not sure I understand what chance Ennis was really offering Jack.  Sure, it was a chance to talk, but in terms of offering a new solution or idea to the way their relationship was organized... I don't think Ennis was offering much of a chance.

Agreed. This is not what I meant to indicate. I meant first and foremost the chance to be honest to each other, honest in the sense of open. A chance to grow from the "Ain't queer - Me neither" pretending to "Sometimes I miss you so much" earlier than they did. I also don't mean some lovey-dovey confessions (urgh, alone the thought ... ::)), but some kind of mutual acknowlegment how difficult, frustrating and sh*tty the situation is. I think this alone would have helped.

In this scene, Ennis must have gotten the impression life is fine for Jack. All that misses to be perfect for Jack would be Ennis nearer to him to see him more often.


Quote
I think what you note here about Ennis's sarcastic remarks here is very good. 

Thank you  :)

Quote
I think the metaphors he uses and the bizarre-hypothetical scenario he describes do reveal something about Ennis's own longings and frustrations about being separated from Jack.

Yup. I always believed Ennis longs for them to be together permanently just as much as Jack did. And I think Jack was very wrong in the lake scene argument when he said  "But you didn't want it" (the sweet life) to Ennis. Ennis wanted it just as much. But he couldn't for the life of him figure out how, and also wasn't able to acknowledge it to Jack.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #58 on: February 19, 2008, 04:58:04 pm »

Yup. I always believed Ennis longs for them to be together permanently just as much as Jack did. And I think Jack was very wrong in the lake scene argument when he said  "But you didn't want it" (the sweet life) to Ennis. Ennis wanted it just as much. But he couldn't for the life of him figure out how, and also wasn't able to acknowledge it to Jack.


I agree... I also think Jack is wrong in saying that Ennis "didn't want it."  But, I think Ennis offers Jack very few clues over the years that he, in fact, does want it.  We, as outside spectators (more objective) have a better chance at analyzing Ennis's desires about that than Jack does (it seems to me).  I also think Jack is trying to be a little mean.  I think the "you didn't want it" is equivalent to some of the mean things Ennis says like "boys like you...", etc.  In a sense, they're both lashing out.

One question... in the story isn't the line "you wouldn't do it"... as opposed to "you didn't want it" in the film?  I'm at work and I don't have my story in front of me.  So, correct me if I'm wrong.  But, those two phrases seem very, very different (and may be a pretty significant alteration from story to screenplay).

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #59 on: February 19, 2008, 05:34:48 pm »

One question... in the story isn't the line "you wouldn't do it"... as opposed to "you didn't want it" in the film?  I'm at work and I don't have my story in front of me.  So, correct me if I'm wrong.  But, those two phrases seem very, very different (and may be a pretty significant alteration from story to screenplay).

Little OT detour here (maybe we should make the lake scene also its own TOTW):
The line in the screenplay (STS book) is also "You wouldn't do it, Ennis", exactly the same as in the SS. But in the movie, it's "But you didn't want it, Ennis". I remember stumbling over this line from my first viewing on. I immediately thought 'You're wrong about this, Jack.' and still think it every time I see it.

Offline optom3

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #60 on: February 19, 2008, 07:55:07 pm »
I wonder how Ennis would have reacted if Jack had said, "No, it's not normal-normal is with you", "yes, she suspects there's someone else" and "no, I don't think anyone who sees me automatically knows". 

Would Ennis have moved to Texas!

I have pondered this as well.For once ,Ennis in the film appears to be showing some self awareness,albeit somewhat paranoid.If Jack had been more honest,who knows what may have transpired.Instead Ennis is left again feeling that it is only HIM who appears  to the outside world to be obviously gay, whilst the viewer knows otherwise.
Maybe a more honest answer from Jack would have alleviated some of the fears of Ennis.After all to him it must now seem Jack is well adjusted, and yet again he is the neurotic one.


I know I should not bring up the book ,but in the motel scene in the book ,Ennis has already pondered whether others are like them, and if so what do they do .(go to denver quips jack)   It is obviously something that preys on his mind.Not only that but he has obviously given the matter some consideration.For a man not overly prone to introspection this is quite revealing.

So on 2 occasions ,one in the book and one in the film,his serious and considered question has resulted in an almost flippant reply.I realise that thsi is part of the character of Jack,but how much more rewarding might have been the final outcome if his answer had been more considered. I realise this is only conjecture/wishful thinking. I just wonder, if Jack had admitted that he did feel people may have guessed ,and look hey Im still here alive, might that have been sufficient for Ennis to overcome his childhood "haunting" and take the plunge.

More wishful thinking,but then he would have been around to "protect" Jack from the incident. Ah well can't rewrite the whole thing,much as I may wish to!!!!
« Last Edit: February 20, 2008, 09:47:57 am by Penthesilea »

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #61 on: February 19, 2008, 08:00:06 pm »
I think that Jack did worry somewhat about what Lureen did think.

Do you?

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Offline BBM-Cat

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #62 on: February 19, 2008, 09:10:57 pm »
I love your point, BBM-Cat, that Jack's non-empathy is a big mistake.  Ennis truly feels alone in his dilemma (an island indeed), the perfect setup for him to get together with Cassie in the next scene.  How can Ennis refuse when the perfect cover (or at least her feet) falls right in his lap?

Thanks LauraGigs - you hit the nail on the head, empathy was certainly lacking. I always kind of cringe when I watch the 'Maybe Texas' scene, thinking Jack missed a big opportunity there. I don't think Jack displaying empathy and reassuring Ennis' fears would have ultimately changed anything as far as outcomes, but at least Ennis might not have felt so alone in his experience (rational or irrational). How I wish Jack had given just a tiny nod of acknowledgement or a soft 'yeah' to Ennis' questions about people 'knowing' or 'suspecting'. But as others have alluded that would have meant admitting to being queer.

And you're right, the perfect setup for Ennis to get together with Cassie.
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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #63 on: February 19, 2008, 11:24:34 pm »
I keep going back to the fact that Ennis was bottling all this up since the Thanksgiving argument with Alma.

He wanted a in-depth conversation with Jack, maybe he would have even told him about what Alma had said, told him about the "Jack Nasty".. maybe even find out if Laureen had ever said anything like that to Jack. Maybe even a warning to Jack, that Laureen might suspect too.

He had been bottling it all up, not being able to talk about it, he was hoping for something positive from Jack, I think. And of course, Jack's reply was NOT what he wanted.

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #64 on: February 20, 2008, 06:16:52 am »
Nice chatting with you too Bud!  It's a nice way to pass the time here at work. ::) ;D

Anyway, Randall is the guy on the bench with Jack.  Yes, I think Jack is sort of stunned by the whole turn of events at that dinner dance.   I think there's a lot of flirting between Jack and Randall at the table and then it is raised to the way-next level by Randall on the bench.  I'm sure there are a million things running through Jack's mind at that point.  One of which, may be "how does he know?".  But, I think he's also weighing his options about saying yes or no... and he's also probably freaked out that Randall happens to suggest fishing (since that's his big association with Ennis).

On the other hand, I think Jack has particularly good "gaydar"... so I think he had Randall figured out at the table. 

Ennis, on the other hand, during the main "maybe Texas" scene in question, seems to be (in part) worrying about "gaydar" in another way.  Worried about how people are starting to perceive him.  And, it really is interesting that here we almost hear Ennis admit that he understands that he's gay or at least "different."



Hey Janice!  I think this post is great.  I do think this scene illustrates just how much Ennis and Jack are stuck on their own issues and are almost speaking passed one another or at cross purposes.  This scene really strongly demonstrates how much of a strain their relationship is under given the conditions placed on it.




huh, my thought at that moment was that Jack was thinking of Ennis. Going to Mexico for a little relief is one thing....starting a new relationship with a man that knew him was different. to me it showed he was thinking of moving on from Ennis. and was very torn by the idea.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #65 on: February 20, 2008, 01:00:52 pm »
huh, my thought at that moment was that Jack was thinking of Ennis. Going to Mexico for a little relief is one thing....starting a new relationship with a man that knew him was different. to me it showed he was thinking of moving on from Ennis. and was very torn by the idea.

Yes, absolutely, I agree with this.  I think Ennis is weighing heavily on Jack's reaction to this rather-fast proposition from Randall. 

I'm using the word "stunned" here... in that I think he's trying to quickly process all of these fast moving things happening somewhat unexpectedly at this social event.  The fact that he sits silently and doesn't respond verbally to Randall on the bench before the women come out seems to indicate that he's really pondering all of this.

Although, I don't know that Jack was thinking of leaving Ennis here... I think he was weighing the impact of having an affair with another man on his ongoing relationship with Ennis.  I don't think Jack was at the point of maybe-quitting Ennis until that last lakeside fight.

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Offline belbbmfan

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #66 on: February 20, 2008, 02:10:45 pm »
This is an excellent thread!

Thanks LauraGigs - you hit the nail on the head, empathy was certainly lacking. I always kind of cringe when I watch the 'Maybe Texas' scene, thinking Jack missed a big opportunity there. I don't think Jack displaying empathy and reassuring Ennis' fears would have ultimately changed anything as far as outcomes, but at least Ennis might not have felt so alone in his experience (rational or irrational). How I wish Jack had given just a tiny nod of acknowledgement or a soft 'yeah' to Ennis' questions about people 'knowing' or 'suspecting'. But as others have alluded that would have meant admitting to being queer.

And you're right, the perfect setup for Ennis to get together with Cassie.

Jack's lack of empathy or understanding wasn't new. I never quite understood why Jack responded so 'detached' to Aguirre's message to bring the sheep down. He didn't seem all that bothered. Ennis was clearly upset at this. And used money as an excuse. I always wondered if Jack understood what Ennis was saying or better, not saying at that point. He responded by offering Ennis a loan, which was not the answer Ennis wanted or needed.

And speaking of money, is just struck me that Jack was talking money in this scene, about making a profit and the inflation eating it all up, maybe not a very considerate thing to do seeing as Ennis was always 'in the poorhouse'.

And I was thinking about the fact that in this scene they are talking to each other without really hearing what the other was saying. It really reminded me of one of the first camp scenes together, Ennis cooking, Jack bitching about 'the no fire bullshit' from Aguirre. They were talking but not having a proper conversation where they actually listen to what the other is saying. Much like in the maybe Texas scene. Another bookend?
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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #67 on: February 20, 2008, 07:51:51 pm »
Jack's lack of empathy or understanding wasn't new. I never quite understood why Jack responded so 'detached' to Aguirre's message to bring the sheep down. He didn't seem all that bothered. Ennis was clearly upset at this. And used money as an excuse. I always wondered if Jack understood what Ennis was saying or better, not saying at that point. He responded by offering Ennis a loan, which was not the answer Ennis wanted or needed.

I don't think Jack understood what Ennis was saying/not saying in that earlier conversation.

In Ennis' mind, the summer (and their idyllic relationship) is OVER, and he must immediately make the emotional transition back to straight, engaged, acceptable-to-society, etc.  So he is thrown for a huge loop and is processing it all at once, when he thought he'd have the rest of summer to make that transition.
I think Jack, optimist that he was, didn't know that the end of the Brokeback job meant the end of their relationship.  He is certain they'll make some kind of plan when they get down from the mountain (or assuming, as in his loan offer, that they'll still be in contact somehow).

But anyway, that's an awesome point – that the "Bring em down" conversation is so similar to the "Texas" one.  Ennis is deeply troubled, and Jack is offering a solution to the immediate, superficial problem and not the more crucial, underlying problem.  A total parallel (maybe not in the palindrome/bookend sense, but definitely a consistency in their relationship).

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #68 on: February 20, 2008, 11:15:58 pm »
Wondering too:

Quote
I always wondered if Jack understood what Ennis was saying or better, not saying at that point. He responded by offering Ennis a loan, which was not the answer Ennis wanted or needed.

 

...

May I say that I think that Jack had some spare money since he had worked there the year before?? !! Right??

So, he offerred some $ to Ennis?? As one way to keep on to befriend Ennis, as well as to show him his affection and love.

But Jack did that being puzzled too, since he was sad that both were leaving!! Jack had time to think since the news, but Ennis had not and so acted and re-acted impressively, and became sad since he was to leave Jack!!

What do you think you and all too??

Hugs!!

Offline THE WINGS

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #69 on: February 21, 2008, 10:24:55 pm »
Excellent thread!  I'll attempt to add my two cents worth.

I think this is one of the defining moments of the whole film.  Here we have Ennis finally verbalizing his own fears in more than a few words.  You can tell he has been thinking about their relatioinship, and wants to know how Jack feels. Then we have Jack, again trying to "circle" ever closer to Ennis, in an attempt to realize that "sweet life" that he so desperately wants.  In my humble opinion, I think that by now, Ennis wants this too, but his fear is still holding him back, as is obvious by his response to Jack's suggestion of 'getting  out of there' to "Maybe Texas".  Probably, by this time Jack is beginning to see that it is very unlikely things will progress much from here on. 

He seems slightly interested, when he meets Randall, but in their bench conversation, I get the sense that he is still thinking of Ennis, and hasn't given up on their relationship, at least not at this point.

Just my thoughts on this important scene.

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Offline serious crayons

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #70 on: February 21, 2008, 11:19:48 pm »
Excellent thread!  I'll attempt to add my two cents worth.

I think this is one of the defining moments of the whole film.  Here we have Ennis finally verbalizing his own fears in more than a few words.  You can tell he has been thinking about their relatioinship, and wants to know how Jack feels. Then we have Jack, again trying to "circle" ever closer to Ennis, in an attempt to realize that "sweet life" that he so desperately wants.  In my humble opinion, I think that by now, Ennis wants this too, but his fear is still holding him back, as is obvious by his response to Jack's suggestion of 'getting  out of there' to "Maybe Texas".  Probably, by this time Jack is beginning to see that it is very unlikely things will progress much from here on.

Ver' good, WINGS! Thanks for adding your thoughts.

Yes, I think it's definitely true that they both mean really well in this scene but are talking past each other. I wish Jack could be a bit more sensitive, but partly that's because -- as in the earlier leaving Brokeback scene -- I know that, unlike Ennis, he's capable of it. He has his own agenda, but who can blame him?

Ennis, for his part, is similarly insensitive in the "Sometimes I miss you so much ... " scene. Again, he probably has his reasons; perhaps, for instance, he's already nervous about having to tell Jack he can't make it in August. But as a result he leaves Jack hanging when Jack was reaching out.






Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #71 on: February 22, 2008, 12:34:59 am »
Excellent thread!  I'll attempt to add my two cents worth.

I think this is one of the defining moments of the whole film.  Here we have Ennis finally verbalizing his own fears in more than a few words.  You can tell he has been thinking about their relationship, and wants to know how Jack feels. Then we have Jack, again trying to "circle" ever closer to Ennis, in an attempt to realize that "sweet life" that he so desperately wants.  In my humble opinion, I think that by now, Ennis wants this too, but his fear is still holding him back, as is obvious by his response to Jack's suggestion of 'getting  out of there' to "Maybe Texas".  Probably, by this time Jack is beginning to see that it is very unlikely things will progress much from here on. 

Ver' good, WINGS! Thanks for adding your thoughts.

Yes, I think it's definitely true that they both mean really well in this scene but are talking past each other. I wish Jack could be a bit more sensitive, but partly that's because -- as in the earlier leaving Brokeback scene -- I know that, unlike Ennis, he's capable of it. He has his own agenda, but who can blame him?

Ennis, for his part, is similarly insensitive in the "Sometimes I miss you so much ... " scene. Again, he probably has his reasons; perhaps, for instance, he's already nervous about having to tell Jack he can't make it in August. But as a result he leaves Jack hanging when Jack was reaching out.

Heya Wings and Crayons!

Yes, I think this scene demonstrates at least two things. 

One is the breakdown of their ability to communicate with each other effectively on a verbal level.  It seems to me that the scene on Brokeback where Jack gets Ennis to laugh and smile for the first time (the "most I've spoken in a year" scene) is a kind of pinnacle in their ability to talk with one another in perfect harmony and to really enjoy the activity of a conversation... one that ends with them laughing together.  And, this "maybe Texas" scene ends with them bickering with each other, verbally cutting each other down and Jack stomping off.  To me, the early communication (and even Proulx's careful description of how much fun Ennis and Jack have talking around the campfires in '63) is a big factor in their early attraction... and I would think particularly fundamental for Ennis's attraction to Jack.  For someone so bottled up usually, having someone who he feels free communicating with must have been important.  By this later scene, the strains on their relationship have really eroded this aspect of their love affair (at least based on what we're allowed to witness by the filmmakers).  I think Jack is certainly guilty here of not being sensitive enough to what Ennis is really trying to talk about and reach out about.  But, by this scene Jack is a somewhat changed man from the earlier, younger Jack. 

And, following on this, the second thing that this scene seems to demonstrate is the new jaded-Jack... or at least a Jack who is much less optimistic than he was prior to the divorce fiasco.  I think this is his first camping scene where he's sporting the moustache.  And, to me that moustache is a visual cue that Jack is changed (in more ways than simply the visual).  Lureen changes her appearance dramatically as she becomes bitter and so does Jack.  I don't think he's entirely lost his hope here... I really do think he's genuinely still hoping that the Texas suggestion might work as a compromise to the living-together dilemma this time.  But, I think his hope is certainly wearing thin by this scene.  Didn't folks used to call Jack's moustache... "the moustache of disillusionment" or something like that?  I mean, by the time of the "miss you so much" camping scene, his smile is even different (almost forced looking at moments).

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Offline THE WINGS

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #72 on: February 22, 2008, 12:05:31 pm »
atz75/ineedcrayons  Enjoyed your insights.   Here's something that came to mind as far as Jack's feelings by the time of their final meeting. ****SPOILER****  Jake Gyllenhaal made an interesting comment regarding the scene immediately after "The Dozy Embrace" where we see the older Jack standing  and watching Ennis drive away, for, unbeknown to him, what was to have been the last time.  Jake said something to the effect that 'that's when Jack died'.  Of course this would refer to Jack's inner feelings, and finally coming to the conclusion that it was extemely unlikely for he and Ennis to ever be together permanently.  I noticed this quote on the findingbrokeback.com site in the section showing all the dvd captures of the various filming locations.
Certainly a very interesting and thought-provoking comment from the man who not only turned in an outstanding perfomance but had in effect BECOME Jack Twist throughout this wonderful film.

Thanks for your comments and letting me share mine with you all.

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Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #73 on: February 22, 2008, 12:19:10 pm »
atz75/ineedcrayons  Enjoyed your insights.   Here's something that came to mind as far as Jack's feelings by the time of their final meeting. ****SPOILER****  Jake Gyllenhaal made an interesting comment regarding the scene immediately after "The Dozy Embrace" where we see the older Jack standing  and watching Ennis drive away, for, unbeknown to him, what was to have been the last time.  Jake said something to the effect that 'that's when Jack died'.  Of course this would refer to Jack's inner feelings, and finally coming to the conclusion that it was extemely unlikely for he and Ennis to ever be together permanently.  I noticed this quote on the findingbrokeback.com site in the section showing all the dvd captures of the various filming locations.
Certainly a very interesting and thought-provoking comment from the man who not only turned in an outstanding perfomance but had in effect BECOME Jack Twist throughout this wonderful film.

Thanks for your comments and letting me share mine with you all.

THE WINGS

That's a neat quotation Wings!  I don't recall hearing it before.  It makes sense to me.  And, LOL, about the "becoming" Jack comment... last night when I was watching the bonus feature interviews I was really struck by the way Jake was speaking during the (many) interview clips where they're talking to him on set and he's semi-in costume.  He's wearing the black hat... but has a white tank top on (and burned shoulders!).  Anyway, his voice and even his turns-of-phrase seem particularly Jack-like... or more Jack-like than he normally sounds in regular inteviews these days.  There's one interview clip where he's talking about how he learned to be around sheep... and he said "I learned how to wrangle sheep up."  Somehow that sounds way more like something Jack would say than Jake Gyllenhaal.

So, it certainly seems true that both Jake and Heath inhabited those characters.  There's another (off-set) interview with Heath where he explicitly talks about becoming/inhabiting the character as much as possible.



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Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #74 on: February 22, 2008, 12:40:43 pm »
Thanks all of you!! I find your posts very informative!

May I relate that to my own experiences with my past lover/buddy? When I reached to have his friendship, I know that he thought of someone else... that he was hopeful of everyday life his way and newness with another (not I)... like Ennis thought that he planned to go and marry Alma!!

As he saw that I kept wanting him. he realized that I was the best for him, he told me. But he went too quickly asking rings, so I frooze!! I did not think of gay marriage or union then as important... even if I wanted a relationship!!

Later on, when I wanted a gay union or rings, he refused!!

Is timing ever right in a relationship and more difficult in a gay one??

Hugs!!


Offline Penthesilea

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #75 on: February 22, 2008, 01:03:36 pm »
Jake Gyllenhaal made an interesting comment regarding the scene immediately after "The Dozy Embrace" where we see the older Jack standing  and watching Ennis drive away, for, unbeknown to him, what was to have been the last time.  Jake said something to the effect that 'that's when Jack died'.  Of course this would refer to Jack's inner feelings, and finally coming to the conclusion that it was extemely unlikely for he and Ennis to ever be together permanently.  I noticed this quote on the findingbrokeback.com site in the section showing all the dvd captures of the various filming locations.
Certainly a very interesting and thought-provoking comment from the man who not only turned in an outstanding perfomance but had in effect BECOME Jack Twist throughout this wonderful film.

I might be totally wrong, but I think this was said in regard to the post-divorce scene, not the moment they parted for the last time.
Can someone help me out here?

Offline Artiste

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #76 on: February 22, 2008, 10:22:43 pm »
Thanks!

Quote
  Jake said something to the effect that 'that's when Jack died'.   

Is that what was said?


Hugs!

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: TOTW 05/08: What do you make of the "Maybe Texas?" scene?
« Reply #77 on: February 25, 2008, 11:52:08 am »
Well, I never did get around to throwing in my two cents on this topic--after being one of the persons to suggest it!  :laugh: So, being a day--a week?--late and a dollar short, I'll be brief, and here it is, "for what it's worth."

This is where I play devil's advocate to my own understanding of Ennis, or maybe this scene is the exception to prove my understanding to me. I've always understood Ennis to be very much out of touch with his feelings--until the end, when it's too late--and deeply in denial and self-deluding about his sexual orientation. Yet in this scene it's difficult to escape the conclusion that he's perfectly congnizant that he's gay.

When he asks Jack about people on the street looking like "they know," it seems illogical to me for him to think that they might know just, specifically, that he has sex with Jack--even I've never felt Ennis was that paranoid. No, it just seems simpler and more logical that he means that he thinks "they" look like "they know" that he's gay--which means that he understands that he's gay.

It's funny, though. As time passes, my understanding of the film seems to be growing closer to my understanding of the short story.  :-\
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