Author Topic: Why We Need to Get Off the Planet  (Read 7611 times)

susiebk

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Why We Need to Get Off the Planet
« on: February 28, 2008, 01:59:23 pm »

For this and a lot of other good reasons ... asteroid impact (not a matter of if, but when), natural and man-made disasters, overpopulation, to utilize the abundant resources available in space, and just to find out what's out there (a la Star Trek), just to name a few.  Yes, we need to try to conserve our resources, but they are still finite and always will be, while population growth is, well, growing and growing and growing.

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/080226-vaporized-earth.html

Earth's Final Sunset Predicted

By Clara Moskowitz
Staff Writer
posted: 2008 February 26
07:00 am ET
 

"Some say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice," wrote the poet Robert Frost. Astronomers, it turns out, are in the former camp.

A new calculation predicts that Earth will be swallowed up by the sun in 7.6 billion years, capping off a longstanding debate over whether the sun's gravitational pull will have weakened enough for Earth to escape final destruction or not.

Other theorists have predicted that our planet will fry as the sun expands in its old age. But the time estimates have varied by a couple billion years.

"Although people have looked at these problems before, we would claim this is the best attempt that's been made to date, and probably the most reliable," said astronomer Robert Smith, emeritus reader at the U.K.'s University of Sussex, who made the new calculations with astronomer Klaus-Peter Schroeder of the University of Guanajuato in Mexico. "What we've done is to refine existing models and to put the best calculations we can at each point in the model."

If 7.6 billion years doesn't sound like an urgent death sentence, don't relax yet. Regardless of whether Earth will ultimately be vaporized, as the sun heats up, our planet will become too hot to live on before then.

"After a billion years or so you've got an Earth with no atmosphere, no water and a surface temperature of hundreds of degrees, way above the boiling point of water," Smith told SPACE.com. "The Earth will become dry basically. It will become completely impossible for life of any kind to exist. It's a pretty gloomy forecast."

Nonetheless, scientists are curious about the ultimate fate of our planet after we are gone (like all previous hominids and more than 99 percent of all species that have lived on Earth, humans will probably go extinct, and it will likely happen sooner than a billion years).

Smith's earlier studies found that Earth would narrowly escape being engorged. As the sun ages and expands into a red giant star, it will shed its outer gaseous layers, thus losing mass and weakening its gravitational pull. Previous calculations found that this let-up would allow the Earth's orbit to shift outward, enabling the planet to slip free of the smoldering sun.

But this scenario doesn't account for tidal forces, and the drag of the sun's outer layers. As the Earth orbits the sun, its smaller gravitational pull isn't completely negligible — it actually causes the side of the sun closest to our planet to hoard more mass and bulge out toward us.

"Just as the Earth is pulling on the sun's bulge, it's pulling on the Earth, and that causes the Earth to slow in its orbit," Smith said. "It will spiral back and finally end up inside the sun."

In addition, the gas that the sun expels will also drag Earth inward toward its demise.

Smith's previous calculations had ignored these effects.

"We didn't think it mattered, but it turns out it does," he said. "You might say our previous models had a gap."

There may even be hope for Earth. Some scientists have proposed a scheme for down the road to use the gravity of a passing asteroid to budge Earth out of the way of the sun toward cooler territory, assuming there is life around at the time that is intelligent enough to engineer this solution.

"It sounds like science fiction, but there's a group of people who have quite seriously suggested that it might be possible," Smith said. "If it's done right, that would just keep the Earth moving fast enough to keep it out of harm's way. Maybe life could go on for as much as 7 billion years."

Smith's findings have been accepted for publication in the journal Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society.




And the Robert Frost poem, "Fire and Ice", for good measure.  I have always liked it.

SOME say the world will end in fire, 
Some say in ice. 
From what I’ve tasted of desire 
I hold with those who favor fire. 
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate 
To know that for destruction ice 
Is also great 
And would suffice.




Offline brokeplex

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Re: Why We Need to Get Off the Planet
« Reply #1 on: February 29, 2008, 12:24:54 am »
I've long been an advocate of "humankind not putting all of our eggs in one basket". At every Sci-Fi convention I attend there are always booths devoted to extra-terrestrial colonization and I always stop and discuss this issue. At a minimum a base on the moon could provide raw materials for low gravity manufacturing, also as a stop for space tourists. and that is a start.

But in order to really move masses of people (millions) off Earth, an earth-like planet suitable for colonization must be found. so far, no luck. we can move thousands to orbital stations in NEO or to the Lagrange points, we can establish a base on the moon and perhaps a station on Mars. But, we will need that "Star Trek" type friendly alien planet in another stellar system to really get a move on colonization.

Offline delalluvia

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Re: Why We Need to Get Off the Planet
« Reply #2 on: February 29, 2008, 12:32:25 am »
Heh, yes the earth will be gone in 7.6 billion years.  But from watching the series "The Universe", it seems the entire universe will be gone in like another dozen billion years after that.  It's a matter of you can run, but you can't hide.  ;D

I think we'll come up with something in a billion years, or we'll be long extinct because as a species, humans are too stupid to put out a fire in our own home.   :-\

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Why We Need to Get Off the Planet
« Reply #3 on: February 29, 2008, 09:01:04 pm »
Ooh, another sci fi nerd.  I am one too  :)  Are you familiar with the X Prize Foundation and what it is trying to accomplish?  If not, look it up:  http://www.xprize.org/.  You won't be disappointed.  The founder also founded the International Space University and his greatest goal is the colonization of space.  Separately, I know someone starting a business to mine minerals from asteroids (no joke)  The moon is also the perfect fueling station for any space venture.  Regarding space tourism, I could address this at length, but suffice to say, there is no better "cargo" than people to bring about enough space flights to reduce launch costs sufficiently to make space exploration cost effective.

There are many people working on this issue.  New planets are being found all the time, and surely some will turn out to be habitable, or at least terraformable (is that a word?  :))



all true!  and I am delighted to see you also have an interest in Sci-fi! yes,  new planets are being found in distant star systems on almost a weekly basis now. but the problem remains, a propulsion system that allows humans to journey there in a reasonable amount of time. a life time just won't do it. and I'm not so sure about cryogenesis, I don't wish to be frozen and thawed out, and doubt the efficacy of that process anyway.

except for the nearer stellar systems : centauri, epsilon eridani, etc, until we develop a "warp" FTL capability, we are pretty much stranded in the immediate area.

injest

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Re: Why We Need to Get Off the Planet
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2008, 02:17:31 am »
Yes, I agree about cryogenesis.  We know how to freeze, but not how to thaw, and that is a pretty big issue.  So the possible solutions for the moment are either to significantly extend the human life span (which is possible in the near term using nanobots and other technologies, but then the overpopulation problem will only be compounded) or to use multi-generational ships, a tough sell.  Warp propulsion would be pretty helpful, but I don't think it's on the near horizon.  So I agree, finding a habitable planet close to Earth is the best goal for the moment.  Too bad space exploration has taken a backseat in US policy for so long.  We could be so much further along this path.




here is what you do....take it out of the freezer and put it in the frig a day or two before you need it....

or just stick it under some cold running water...

 ;D ;D

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Why We Need to Get Off the Planet
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2008, 06:05:01 pm »
here are some interesting links to some folks I spoke with at ConDFW about off planet colonization :

http://www.nssnt.org/

www.lunarcc.org

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Why We Need to Get Off the Planet
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2008, 06:41:40 pm »
Thanks.  I am a member of the NSS and already familiar.  I know some of the folks behind it.  I will check out the lunarcc link.


excellent, I was very impressed with the folks I met last week at the con.

injest

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Re: Why We Need to Get Off the Planet
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2008, 10:35:11 pm »
What do ya'll think of the private corporations that are trying to develop space flight for tourism?

Do you think they will spur the government to spend more or will it make it too easy for people to CUT spending, saying the private sector is taking over?

injest

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Re: Why We Need to Get Off the Planet
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2008, 04:24:31 pm »
I'm not sure more government spending will fix the issue without some attitude changes on the part of NASA, which has become risk averse to the point where it has impeded progress.  It says something that the only way for private citizens to travel into space currently is via old Russian technology - the Soyuz (although the principals of Space Adventures, the company that arranges these flights, are Americans).  One change that has taken place is that the US government now has a policy of taking bids for COTS - Commercial Off The Shelf solutions from the private sector.  So there is something of a technology sharing going on.  I do think that the private sector is where the money and the inspiration is, and where the advancement will come from.

Players in the space tourism industry include Sir Richard Branson (Virgin Galactic), Elon Musk of Pay Pal (SpaceX), and several others (even the Google Guys, to some extent).  There is a lot of private wealth being focused on space tourism.  And most of those involved are participating because the longterm goal is not tourism at all - it is a means to the end of getting us off the planet by way of lowering launch costs and perfecting the technology required (although of course they also just want to go into space).



ok, let's say one of these guys manages to make it to the moon for example....what government entity would he be answerable to...

in other words who 'owns' the moon?

Offline brokeplex

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Re: Why We Need to Get Off the Planet
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2008, 07:49:24 pm »
What do ya'll think of the private corporations that are trying to develop space flight for tourism?

Do you think they will spur the government to spend more or will it make it too easy for people to CUT spending, saying the private sector is taking over?

that is the thesis of the Luna Project I gave a link to above. I am not entirely sure that private investment can carry the load of est a permanent base on the moon. right now the only thing private investment can put together would be limited space tourist operations, ie, orbital flights in NEO. because of the very large capital investment with tiny short term profit prospects right now, I suspect that the hand of government(s) will have to be in the mix when humans establish a permanent presence in space which is capable of becoming self-sustaining. after, the major start up costs are sunk however , private industry or a mix of private / public capital can make space a long term investment and colonization prospect.