user names

[opinionista]

I think in the real old-fashioned etiquette, a woman went by "Mrs. John Doe" (using her husband's name) if she was a widow, and "Mrs. Mary Doe" (using her first name) if she was divorced, assuming, of course, that she didn't take back her maiden name when she got divorced. This would be to differentiate "Mary" from the new "Mrs. John Doe" who would be her ex-husband's second wife.

Sort of ridiculous, isn't it?

I've never understood why in the USA women lose their lastnames when getting married. And if they want to keep it they have to ask the court! WTF? In Puerto Rico women keep their last names upon getting married. And the children legally go by both their dad and their mom's last name, as they do in Spain. Like this "Mary (insert dad's lastname) (insert mom's lastname)".

[MaineWriter]

I've never understood why in the USA women lose their lastnames when getting married. And if they want to keep it they have to ask the court!

Actually, no, that's not true. When a woman gets married, it is the only time she can legally change her name without going to court. But it is not required by any law that a woman must change her name when she gets married--it is just a tradition. So, if a woman (like me) chooses not to change her name, she doesn't need to do anything. For me, nothing changed. License, credit cards were all the same. And I didn't have to go to court to keep my name.

L

[injest]

hmm...  I don't remember if it made him happy. I think, because I was so young at the time, it wasn't something that was taken seriously. I think it was just stated as a fact - because there were only girls in the family, of course the name would not be passed on. You know what, though? I kept my last name, and I always will, and I always knew I would, but I didn't end up passing it on after all! My daughter has her father's name. She has my last name too, but we didn't hypenate it, and so it's officially one of her middle names, which is very old fashioned. Of course, some members of my extended families insist on calling her by my surname and ignoring her real last name... when they address cards to her and stuff. Well, that's just silly family politics..

As to why I did it that way... you know, I'm not quite sure. It doesn't feel strange to me that my daughter and I don't have the same last name. It never has.. maybe it should, but it doesn't. At the time, I did it that way because - well, because I could tell that he, her father, wanted it to be that way. And as it turned out, he passed away when she was 15 months old, and I've always felt glad that she has something from her father, and that sense of belonging in his family. It's almost like I feel her 'belonging' with me is such a simple and constant fact that the name seems irrelevant, but with her father's family, it could have gone either way - the sense of belonging, that is - but I'm glad it is the way it is.

It's interesting, though! Just writing this, I can see how the issue of family names has an element of 'laying claim' to people, somehow... or is that just my weird family? 

I see it as more of a sense of unity...as being part of a group. There is something intangible about names but to me a family with everyone having last names seems disjointed...like a patchwork quilt...nothing wrong with it but just a feeling that the union isnt as strong. When you see a family where the kids all have different last names (and I am thinking of a family I know that has three kids and four different last names) shows a family that has been thru a lot of upheaval in the course of the kids lifes and that is not a great thing.

[southendmd]

I have an aunt (a widow of a certain age) who insists  on being called "Mrs. John Southend".  When her newest daughter-in-law addressed the Xmas card to "Mrs. Mary Southend" she let it be known that she was insulted!

[MaineWriter]

I have an aunt (a widow of a certain age) who insists  on being called "Mrs. John Southend".  When her newest daughter-in-law addressed the Xmas card to "Mrs. Mary Southend" she let it be known that she was insulted!

She should be grateful that her newest daughter-in-law was sending a card at all!

L

[opinionista]

Actually, no, that's not true. When a woman gets married, it is the only time she can legally change her name without going to court. But it is not required by any law that a woman must change her name when she gets married--it is just a tradition. So, if a woman (like me) chooses not to change her name, she doesn't need to do anything. For me, nothing changed. License, credit cards were all the same. And I didn't have to go to court to keep my name.

L

Oh ok. I thought it was mandatory! Thanks for the explanation

[serious crayons]

I have an aunt (a widow of a certain age) who insists  on being called "Mrs. John Southend".  When her newest daughter-in-law addressed the Xmas card to "Mrs. Mary Southend" she let it be known that she was insulted!

Yes, I was going to say, women of earlier generations very much saw it as honorary to be referred to as Mrs. Their Husband. Which strikes me as so sad -- such a blatant admission that their own accomplishments aren't supposed to count for anything, that their entire status and sense of self-worth had to come from their mates.

(Here I'm talking about where even the husband's first name has to be involved -- not just his last name.)

I see it as more of a sense of unity...as being part of a group. There is something intangible about names but to me a family with everyone having last names seems disjointed...like a patchwork quilt...nothing wrong with it but just a feeling that the union isnt as strong.

I agree that it lends a sense of group unity, which seems like the one good reason to take a husband's name. It's like having everyone on a sports team wear the same uniform. But of course, it's not essential -- families with an assortment of last names can be every bit as strong as the strongest one-named family, and stronger than many.

Here's an interesting thing in regard to names. I once was talking to a family therapist who said that when she hears of families in which all of the children have the same first initial -- for example, Justin, Juliet, Joshua, Jennifer, etc. -- it can be a red flag hinting of child abuse!    I wondered why that would be, and she explained that it suggests a parental attitude of excessive ownership, of enclosure and lack of boundaries.

Of course, this is a vast generalization, too. Don't go calling the child-protection service on your next-door neighbors just because their kids all have the same first initial! 

[Brown Eyes]

I think it's so revealing of major cultural attitudes and of how ingrained certain conventions are in society... to realize how incredibly rare it is for a husband to take his wife's name.  In fact, I think many men would find the idea insulting or laughable.  It does happen once in a while (my parents have friends whose son took his wife's last name in a hyphenated way).  But, the fact that the burden is always, or almost always, placed on the woman to have to deal with the pressures about changing names is just really depressing to me.

This convention I think really reveals how ingrained patriarchal traditions are in society still to a large degree.

Why does creating family unity always have to come at the expense of a woman's identity?

[serious crayons]

I think it's so revealing of major cultural attitudes and of how ingrained certain conventions are in society... to realize how incredibly rare it is for a husband to take his wife's name.  In fact, I think many men would find the idea insulting or laughable.  It does happen once in a while (my parents have friends whose son took his wife's last name in a hyphenated way).  But, the fact that the burden is always, or almost always, placed on the woman to have to deal with the pressures about changing names is just really depressing to me.

This convention I think really reveals how ingrained patriarchal traditions are in society still to a large degree.

Why does creating family unity always have to come at the expense of a woman's identity?

Exactly. And as you suggest, that applies to many situations, but this is a good example of one. Think of the hassle of changing driver's license, credit cards, business cards, stationery, email address, checking account, social security account, etc., etc. Think of the dilemma for women who have built up a professional reputation under their "maiden" name, then having to either reeducate everybody about their new name or live a double life with two names.

But my biggest objection is the symbolic unfairness.

I know of one or two couples in which the husband hyphenated his name, too. But often there's something a bit more tentative and symbolic about that. Like, they might sort of unofficially say they've changed their name to John Hisname-Hername. But in practice, they're still widely known as John Hisname. I guess in cases like that the question to ask is, did the guy change his driver's license, credit cards, business cards, etc. etc.? If so, then good for him. But I think that's very rare.

In Puerto Rico women keep their last names upon getting married. And the children legally go by both their dad and their mom's last name, as they do in Spain. Like this "Mary (insert dad's lastname) (insert mom's lastname)".

Natali, I've always been curious in these cases about what happens to the following generation of names? What is the last name for the child of Mary (dad's name) (mom's name) and John (dad's name) (mom's name)? Does that kid then go by Jane (dad's dad's name) (dad's mom's name) (mom's dad's name) (mom's mom's name)? And then what happens in the generation after that, and so on?

[Brown Eyes]

Exactly. And as you suggest, that applies to many situations, but this is a good example of one. Think of the hassle of changing driver's license, credit cards, business cards, stationery, email address, checking account, social security account, etc., etc. Think of the dilemma for women who have built up a professional reputation under their "maiden" name, then having to either reeducate everybody about their new name or live a double life with two names.

But my biggest objection is the symbolic unfairness.

I know of one or two couples in which the husband hyphenated his name, too. But often there's something a bit more tentative and symbolic about that. Like, they might sort of unofficially say they've changed their name to John Hisname-Hername. But in practice, they're still widely known as John Hisname. I guess in cases like that the question to ask is, did the guy change his driver's license, credit cards, business cards, etc. etc.? If so, then good for him. But I think that's very rare.

I agree with everything you just said Bud.  I wonder if anyone here has heard of an example where a husband has entirely changed his name to take his wife's last name (not hyphenated).  I'm sure it's probably happened at some point, but I honestly can't think of an example that I've encountered personally.