Author Topic: Modesty/ Changes in TS2 - screenplay vs. film  (Read 7032 times)

Offline Brown Eyes

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Modesty/ Changes in TS2 - screenplay vs. film
« on: February 29, 2008, 09:51:43 pm »
Heya,

I don't even know if this rises to the level of a great topic for conversation (and I'm sure this is something that must have been considered before somewhere as well).  But, anyway... here goes..

Recently I've found myself reading the Story to Screenplay book more carefully than I have in the past and I'm particularly interested in the directions that are indicated in the screenplay as opposed to focusing on the dialogue.  There really is a lot there in terms of information and clues for interpretation.  Some of these directions are interesting because they were not followed in the finished film... and of course I think we all know that there are often quite significant differences between the film and screenplay (not to mention various manifestations that the screenplay itself probably went through).  I'm certainly not an expert on the technicalities involved in this, published STS screenplay... I'd be interested in hearing more about what this particular screenplay actually is.

Anyway, one (perhaps sort of fun) difference I noticed recently has to do with the description of TS2.  I was surprised to read in the screenplay that Jack is supposed to be entirely naked in this scene.  Whereas in the film he has his jeans on.  I'd be curious to hear what folks think about this change.  Is this change a reflection of modesty issues for Jake?  Did the filmmakers decide that having Jack be fully nude here would be too much for the audience (for one reason or another)?  Otherwise the motions indicated for Jack here seem quite reminiscent and descriptive of many of the motions that Jake actually performs.

Two other things also seem interesting to note.  The directions suggest that TS2 should happen at sunset (with a colorful sky), whereas clearly in the film it's fully dark.  And, there's no mention of the controversial "I'm sorry" here.



Here's how TS2 is written in STS:

EXT: BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN, WYOMING: CAMP: TENT: NIGHT: 1963

The setting sun leaves the sky ablaze in orange and purple.

ENNIS sits by the fire alone.  Hears coyote in the distance.

JACK is inside the tent.

ENNIS, pensive, glances over towards the tent.  Decides.

Gets up.

Goes to the tent.

INT. BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN, WYOMING: TENT: NIGHT: CONTINUED

JACK sits atop the bedroll, naked, his shirt draped over his lap.  He looks up as Ennis enters.

ENNIS cautiously steps in.  JACK raises his hand to him. 

ENNIS takes it.  JACK pulls him in.

JACK, gentle, reassuring, takes ENNIS'S face in his hands.

                             JACK
                         It's all right... It's all right.

JACK kisses him.

They lie back.  Embrace.  Kiss.




the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline louisev

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Re: Modesty/ Changes in TS2 - screenplay vs. film
« Reply #1 on: February 29, 2008, 10:42:41 pm »
I remember very vaguely somewhere a long time ago reading that they did a number of takes of that scene with Jake fully naked, and it wasn't working, so they shot it with him wearing jeans.  But I am not sure I could find the reference for that.
“Mr. Coyote always gets me good, boy,”  Ellery said, winking.  “Almost forgot what life was like before I got me my own personal coyote.”


Offline forsythia12

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Re: Modesty/ Changes in TS2 - screenplay vs. film
« Reply #2 on: February 29, 2008, 11:04:51 pm »
well, i'm not sure the reason for the change would be.  jeans or no jeans, i just like the direction he's goin'!"  lol
the scene is hot no matter what.  they could be wearing parkas for all i care!  but back to your question, maybe it's just something with the acting, or maybe they felt like they could get closer to eachother with pants on.  not that i think it was a problem for them, but just an idea.  maybe they, or one of them, felt less inhibitted in that position if they were dressed a little more than planned.  who knows.
as far as the sunset?  i liked the fact it was dark. 
but, i've seen the movie so many times, it's hard to imagine anything but the way it was played out.
hugs.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Modesty/ Changes in TS2 - screenplay vs. film
« Reply #3 on: February 29, 2008, 11:18:12 pm »
I remember very vaguely somewhere a long time ago reading that they did a number of takes of that scene with Jake fully naked, and it wasn't working, so they shot it with him wearing jeans.  But I am not sure I could find the reference for that.

Hunh!  Thanks Louise, I hadn't heard that, but I can believe it. 

When we see glimpses of Jack in the tent through the flap as Ennis is still sitting by the fire... I do feel like Jack is fiddling with his shirt and seems to be laying it out or perhaps across his lap as described here.  He always seems so non-specifically "busy" in that tent as Ennis sits outside.  It comes across as possibly a sign of nervous energy or something from Jack.  The calm he exhibits once Ennis does enter the tent is pretty impressive.  I think his calm and confidence here are essential for Ennis here.  So, it seems that any nervousness Jack himself might be experiencing happens more in private for him or away from Ennis's gaze. (Maybe I'm making too much of this though).

I actually don't recall rumors or speculations about how many takes TS2 might have had... I've always heard 13 (or something like that) for TS1. 

My immediate wonder is whether Jake had any kind of no-nudity clause in his contract, but that can't be the case given the naked laundry scene.

well, i'm not sure the reason for the change would be.  jeans or no jeans, i just like the direction he's goin'!"  lol
the scene is hot no matter what.  they could be wearing parkas for all i care!  but back to your question, maybe it's just something with the acting, or maybe they felt like they could get closer to eachother with pants on.  not that i think it was a problem for them, but just an idea.  maybe they, or one of them, felt less inhibitted in that position if they were dressed a little more than planned.  who knows.
as far as the sunset?  i liked the fact it was dark. 


I like the fact that it was dark better too.  It somehow makes it seem more intimate and closed-in.

When reading this rather spare description for TS2 in the screenplay, it's interesting how many of the gestures are either improvised in that scene between Jake and Heath or how many of them were invented by Ang Lee independently of the screenplay.  I mean, particularly the last two lines:

JACK kisses him.

They lie back.  Embrace.  Kiss.


seem way to cursory to describe what actually happens following the "It's all right."


I love the one-word "sentence" describing Ennis as he leave the campfire: Decides.

That's pretty powerful.


the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline forsythia12

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Re: Modesty/ Changes in TS2 - screenplay vs. film
« Reply #4 on: February 29, 2008, 11:35:06 pm »
[
I love the one-word "sentence" describing Ennis as he leave the campfire: Decides.

That's pretty powerful.



[/quote]


i liked that line too!  you can see him 'decide' in the movie

injest

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Re: Modesty/ Changes in TS2 - screenplay vs. film
« Reply #5 on: February 29, 2008, 11:48:53 pm »
well, i'm not sure the reason for the change would be.  jeans or no jeans, i just like the direction he's goin'!"  lol
the scene is hot no matter what.  they could be wearing parkas for all i care!  but back to your question, maybe it's just something with the acting, or maybe they felt like they could get closer to eachother with pants on.  not that i think it was a problem for them, but just an idea.  maybe they, or one of them, felt less inhibitted in that position if they were dressed a little more than planned.  who knows.
as far as the sunset?  i liked the fact it was dark. 
but, i've seen the movie so many times, it's hard to imagine anything but the way it was played out.
hugs.

I think that by staging the TS2 at night, it showed that they thought about it more..that they had spent the entire evening sitting and eating and not talking (or did they?? we don't know but I would like to)

if it had taken place earlier it would have felt more 'casual' ..like they had already decided to keep this relationship going...

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Modesty/ Changes in TS2 - screenplay vs. film
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2008, 06:43:33 am »
I think that by staging the TS2 at night, it showed that they thought about it more..that they had spent the entire evening sitting and eating and not talking (or did they?? we don't know but I would like to)

if it had taken place earlier it would have felt more 'casual' ..like they had already decided to keep this relationship going...


Yep, that's what I thought too, about the scene taking place in the dark.
My guess is also that they had a pretty quiet evening, no (or not much) joking around, no stories told, no carefree banter, talking only little. I picture thoughtful silence (mostly), and also a sense of unspoken, mutual understanding. Not understanding of what their relationship is about to become, but understanding of - looking for the right word here - being connected.

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Modesty/ Changes in TS2 - screenplay vs. film
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2008, 07:02:27 am »
Anyway, one (perhaps sort of fun) difference I noticed recently has to do with the description of TS2.  I was surprised to read in the screenplay that Jack is supposed to be entirely naked in this scene.  Whereas in the film he has his jeans on.  I'd be curious to hear what folks think about this change.  Is this change a reflection of modesty issues for Jake?  Did the filmmakers decide that having Jack be fully nude here would be too much for the audience (for one reason or another)? 

What comes to my mind is what Ang Lee said in interviews, that he didn't want to 'exploit' the actors (I put it in ' because I think it's simply their job; not getting exploited, but being naked when the scene demands it, but that's another topic). He said they were giving so much, he didn't want to ask more from them than what was really needed.

This comment is in agreement with Lee's well-known restraint in general as well as with his modest demeanor in interviews and the way everybody spoke of him. So maybe this is just a typical Ang Lee -thingie.

Maybe it was much simpler than that. Maybe they did takes with and without Jeans (like Louise said) and for whatever reason one of the takes with Jeans turned out to be the best. May just likely have been something as mundane as the lighting was perfect, no flies buzzed through the picture or whatever.

injest

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Re: Modesty/ Changes in TS2 - screenplay vs. film
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2008, 08:39:03 am »
What comes to my mind is what Ang Lee said in interviews, that he didn't want to 'exploit' the actors (I put it in ' because I think it's simply their job; not getting exploited, but being naked when the scene demands it, but that's another topic). He said they were giving so much, he didn't want to ask more from them than what was really needed.

This comment is in agreement with Lee's well-known restraint in general as well as with his modest demeanor in interviews and the way everybody spoke of him. So maybe this is just a typical Ang Lee -thingie.

Maybe it was much simpler than that. Maybe they did takes with and without Jeans (like Louise said) and for whatever reason one of the takes with Jeans turned out to be the best. May just likely have been something as mundane as the lighting was perfect, no flies buzzed through the picture or whatever.

or maybe that particular take had that indefinable quality that has made it so talked about and loved? The naturalness, the honesty? There was such magic in that scene....I can't imagine that they were able to reach that level every time.

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Modesty/ Changes in TS2 - screenplay vs. film
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2008, 04:03:34 pm »
or maybe that particular take had that indefinable quality that has made it so talked about and loved? The naturalness, the honesty? There was such magic in that scene....I can't imagine that they were able to reach that level every time.


Yes, I agree that this scene is pretty much perfection and I'm sure the final cut here in the film has a lot to do with a kind of indescribable chemistry and mood in one particular instance of this scene that probably couldn't happen in every single take.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie

Offline belbbmfan

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Re: Modesty/ Changes in TS2 - screenplay vs. film
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2008, 04:17:53 pm »
What comes to my mind is what Ang Lee said in interviews, that he didn't want to 'exploit' the actors (I put it in ' because I think it's simply their job; not getting exploited, but being naked when the scene demands it, but that's another topic). He said they were giving so much, he didn't want to ask more from them than what was really needed.

This comment is in agreement with Lee's well-known restraint in general as well as with his modest demeanor in interviews and the way everybody spoke of him. So maybe this is just a typical Ang Lee -thingie.

Maybe it was much simpler than that. Maybe they did takes with and without Jeans (like Louise said) and for whatever reason one of the takes with Jeans turned out to be the best. May just likely have been something as mundane as the lighting was perfect, no flies buzzed through the picture or whatever.

Have you seen Lust, Caution Chrissi?  ;D

I agree with your comment though. The scene was just perfect as we saw it on screen.
'We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em'

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Modesty/ Changes in TS2 - screenplay vs. film
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2008, 04:53:51 pm »
Have you seen Lust, Caution Chrissi?  ;D


Nope. From your comment I conclude there was not so much restraint in L/C  ;D.
But with "in general" I meant in general regarding BBM, making us feel like never enough.

Offline belbbmfan

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Re: Modesty/ Changes in TS2 - screenplay vs. film
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2008, 04:57:46 pm »
I know Chrissi, I was just saying. 'Never enough' sums up BBM well.

'We're supposed to guard the sheep, not eat 'em'

Offline Penthesilea

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Re: Modesty/ Changes in TS2 - screenplay vs. film
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2008, 05:15:52 pm »
'Never enough' sums up BBM well.

Ain't it the truth?
And not only for the movie, but also in a larger sense for the whole Brokie experience.

mvansand76

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Re: Modesty/ Changes in TS2 - screenplay vs. film
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2008, 05:47:41 pm »
First thing that comes to mind is that it wouldn't have been very believable for Jack to be completely naked in this scene:

1. It was probably cold
2. It would probably be too much for Ennis, it would scare him off

I like how in the story to screenplay book Jack reaches out to Ennis and Ennis takes his hand:

ENNIS cautiously steps in.  JACK raises his hand to him. 
ENNIS takes it.  JACK pulls him in.


I would have loved to have seen that, it makes my heart go pitter patter! :D

Offline Jeff Wrangler

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Re: Modesty/ Changes in TS2 - screenplay vs. film
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2008, 06:31:14 pm »
Talk about mundane, but here it goes:

In the finished version, each of the four principals, Ennis, Jack, Alma, and Lureen, has one nude scene (maybe seminude--topless--is more accurate for the women). Then Ennis and Jack have one nude scene together (jumping off the cliff)--although we might presume they are nude in the bed in the motel.

So if Jack had been visibly and obviously (to the audience) completely nude in TS2, he would have had two nude scenes (not that I would have been bothered  ;D )--not to mention that Ennis was nude in the background, while Jack peeled potatoes, while Jack's nude scene, doing the laundry, is pretty clear in focus.

Was this sort of thing an acutal consideration? I sure don't know, but I think it's interesting that it worked out this way.
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Offline optom3

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Re: Modesty/ Changes in TS2 - screenplay vs. film
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2008, 11:35:48 pm »

Yes, I agree that this scene is pretty much perfection and I'm sure the final cut here in the film has a lot to do with a kind of indescribable chemistry and mood in one particular instance of this scene that probably couldn't happen in every single take.



Have to say I agree too.
But I also think TS1 had  such raw,violent out of the blue sex,that I  TS2 had to be more tender.I would of course been a very happy bunny to see more naked flesh,I just feel the sheer heartwrenching tenderness would have been lost.There is something more considered and tender in the 2nd scene.The shyness and hesitancy we see from Ennis,coupled with the, its allright from Jack ,just works so well.It almost seems as if this is the real start of their relationship.We go from unadulterated sex and passion,random ,and verging on violent,to the beginnings of a real connection and love.

Personally I would have been distracted from this by a naked Jack!!!!!

It almost compares to the motel scene,where we assume they are naked,but are seen only from the chest up.This allowed (me anyway) to concentrate again on the tenderness.The subtle rub of Jacks' arrm by Ennis.Again this scene followed on from the sheer passion and again verging on violence of their reunion kiss.

Perhaps it boils down to contrasts yet again.Passion followed by tenderness,in both the tent scenes and again in the reunion scenes.A rollercoaster ride,where all you can do is .hold onto your heart and emotions .Hoping you'll come out in one piece. I didn't !!!!!!!!!

Offline Brown Eyes

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Re: Modesty/ Changes in TS2 - screenplay vs. film
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2008, 11:45:47 pm »
Thanks for all these great posts Friend!  :D  I think it's interesting to actually try to focus a bit on the screenplay... it's such an interesting thing... we talk a lot about the film and about the story... but the screenplay is this ambiguous thing in the middle.  That, in many ways, is hard to interpret.  It seems particularly interesting to think of this question in terms of the (silly) Oscars since the screenplay is the thing that won along with the direction (and of course the music).  To try to dissect ways that the screenplay interacts with the acting decisions by Heath/Jake (others) as well as Ang Lee's direction seems very complex. 

With these spare descriptions in some aspects of the screenplay, it really is illuminating to realize how much of the action was either improvised by the actors or prescribed by Ang Lee.



Anyway... for comparison's sake... here's how TS1 is written:

INT: BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN, WYOMING: CAMP: TENT: DARK, JUST BEFORE DAWN: 1963

Both are warm inside JACK'S bedroll.

JACK is wide awake now.  ENNIS, on his back, is half-asleep.

JACK, tentative, takes one of ENNIS'S big hands from outside the bedroll and guides it inside, down towards his own groin.

ENNIS, coming full awake, realizes where his hand is... jerks it away as if he's touched fire.

                            ENNIS
                    What're you doin'?

JACK moves towards him.  Takes off his jacket, unbuckles his pants.

Then ENNIS flips JACK around.  Unbuckles his belt, shoves his pants down with one hand, uses the other to haul JACK up on all fours.

JACK doesn't resist.

ENNIS spits in the palm of his hand, puts it on himself.

They go at it in silence, except for a few sharp intakes of breath.

ENNIS shudders.

Then out, down, as both fall asleep.



This is particularly interesting because it's almost all direction and no dialogue.  And, it's also interesting to note the places where there's almost excessive detail (like why both calling Ennis's hand "big"?) and where details aren't spelled out that we see in the film.

And, it's fun to see the places where the screenplay text is almost exactly Proulx's writing.

the world was asleep to our latent fuss - bowie