sexual orientation, jealousy, and the definition of infidelity.

[forsythia12]

okay......this might be a very dumb question, but i was always wondering about the 'unspoken commitment' between jack and ennis regarding who it was, and who it wasn't, okay to sleep with.  here's the part that confuses me:
-jack asked ennis "after all this time, you still haven't found someone to marry?"
-ennis admits he's been 'putting the blocks to a waitress'
-jack says he's got something going on with a foreman's wife'

why is it that sleeping with a woman is okay?  i mean, sleeping with another man must be considered 'cheating' or not coshre because jack lies about the foreman's wife, and we certainly see ennis's reaction about mexico......so why is sleeping with men taboo, and women is fine....no questions asked?

when jack said "you and alma....that's a life?"  did he mean that because they're gay, no woman could possibly replace jack? 
i'm trying to understand that jack and ennis had some sort of understanding that other men were off limits, but was there no jealousy about sex with women?  if ennis got married again, would'nt jack be the least bit jealous?  what about ennis being jealous over this 'foreman's wife'?
to me, sex with anyone else, despite orientation, would be hard to deal with, and would create jealousy, so i'm confused by this. 

my husband would freak if i slept with a girl (fantasy excluded. lol) and he'd consider it cheating, even though girls are not my sexual preference..

any thoughts?

[Katie77]

You are right......seems neither one of them is jealous of them being with a woman, but definately would be if they knew about them being with a man.

I think jealousy, or the feeling of being cheated on, is when the person who is  cheating , is  replacing or substituting  what they and their partner share. Its like the cheater is getting something from someone else, that their partner can provide them with. Its the feeling of betrayal, of being lied to, of having been deceived that hurts the most.

There are mixed feelings in the movie......on the one hand, I can understand Ennis not being jealous of the Jack having a "thing" with the ranchers wife,but if Jack had told him the "thing" was really with the rancher, there is no doubt, Ennis would have felt hurt and betrayed and may have even got so angry that he would have completely broken off the realtionship with Jack.

On the other hand,  I can understand Alma being jealous of Jack....and if Ennis thought Alma was cheating with Munro he too would have been absolutely ropable.

From what I have learned from friends and aquaintances who have either cheated or been cheated on, its the emotional betrayal that hurts the most, more so than the actual sex act.....

There is the other aspect too, that if the partner does not find out or discover the infedilty then no one gets hurt...a case of "what one does not know, wont hurt them".

Also that some relationships are based on love and committment, where others are more lust than love, "just sex, it didnt mean anything"....


Maybe that is how Ennis and Jack looked at their relationship....based on love, companionship, and in their own way, they were committed to one another. In their mind, for one or the other to have sex with a woman, it would be only be for the lust or sexual gratification, not an emotional experience.

Infedility is very hypocritical, can be justified or condemned, depending on whichever way you are looking at it, and whoever is looking at it. Like in the movie, we seem to accept Jack and Ennis relationship, with a certain amount of disregard that they are actually cheating on Alma and Laureen.

I guess the conversation can go round and round in circles, there doesnt seem to be a right or a wrong answer...Ive rambled on here, and yet still dont have a reasonable explanation as to why they react diferently to each other being with a woman. They just do, I can understand it, but I cant expalin it

[Jeff Wrangler]

why is it that sleeping with a woman is okay?  i mean, sleeping with another man must be considered 'cheating' or not coshre because jack lies about the foreman's wife, and we certainly see ennis's reaction about mexico......so why is sleeping with men taboo, and women is fine....no questions asked?

I've always felt that for them--or, really, for Ennis--having sex with other men violated the "one-shot thing" idea between the two of them. Having sex with women but not with any other men allows Ennis to preserve his self-delusion that they aren't really homosexual. I believe this is one factor in his anger with Jack in the confrontation at the lake. It's not just that Jack has been cheating on him, it's that being forced to confront the fact that Jack has been having sex with other men forces Ennis to face up to the true nature of Jack's sexual orientation--and of his own sexual orientation, too.

[Front-Ranger]

And there's also the fact that neither Jack nor Ennis thought much of their spouses, they were there mostly for convenience sake. Ennis thought of Alma much the way he considered any other piece a livestock. Jack "ain't never gave it much thought," he was happy with "doing it over the phone." Can you blame them? Both Alma and Lureen roped in their mates and used Jack and Ennis in their own ways too.

[Brown Eyes]

I think dating women/marrying women were considered acceptable by Ennis (and Jack too) because those things were part of his "cover".  In a way, they were essential to Ennis's determination to remain in the closet.

If Ennis had "said the word" that he was ready to move in with Jack... I think Jack would have stopped seeing women/ divorced Lureen immediately.  We know he was willing to leave Lureen at the time of the reunion.  And, he drives to Wyoming at the drop of a hat following Ennis's divorce.  Sometimes I think it's lucky for Ennis that Jack didn't arrive after Ennis's divorce and announce that he'd just gotten divorced too (based on this signal that Jack perceives from Ennis).

In terms of the relationship between Ennis and Jack being the primary relationship, it seems important to establish that Ennis was with Jack first (sexually).  Yes, he was engaged to Alma, but seemingly their romance hadn't progressed very far based on the "opportunity" conversation.  This is Jack's enduring claim on Ennis I think.  And, makes it ultimately seem like Ennis, in a way, is cheating on Jack by deciding to go through with the marriage with Alma.

[injest]

And there's also the fact that neither Jack nor Ennis thought much of their spouses, they were there mostly for convenience sake. Ennis thought of Alma much the way he considered any other piece a livestock. Jack "ain't never gave it much thought," he was happy with "doing it over the phone." Can you blame them? Both Alma and Lureen roped in their mates and used Jack and Ennis in their own ways too.

how did Alma and Lureen 'use' them in their own way? I mean in the short story and the movie, not the conjecture of the Open Forum threads. It was a bad situation but I don't blame the women. Jack and Ennis were the ones that went outside their marriages. Neither woman did anything that can even remotely be considered underhanded.

[Front-Ranger]

I don't "blame" the women and I don't think they did anything "underhanded" but I do think they used the men and the relationship. Alma expected Ennis to bring home enough money for the whole family to live on. She said (and at a very vulnerable time) "I'd have em (children) if you'd support em."

Lureen actively pursued Jack and singled him out as her mate, and then seduced him in the back seat of her car. He neither wanted to marry nor have children.

[injest]

I don't "blame" the women and I don't think they did anything "underhanded" but I do think they used the men and the relationship. Alma expected Ennis to bring home enough money for the whole family to live on. She said (and at a very vulnerable time) "I'd have em (children) if you'd support em."

Lureen actively pursued Jack and singled him out as her mate, and then seduced him in the back seat of her car. He neither wanted to marry nor have children.

you say you dont' blame them then you portray their actions in a bad light. Ennis was screwing another man and quitting jobs constantly to be with that man, that affected their family, Alma MORE than had reason to ask Ennis to wear protection.

and when did it become 'using' someone to like them and seduce them? as far as she knew Jack was available. Jack could have said no. He was a big boy. I dont' see him as being that weak, he made a CHOICE to get married and have kids.

[Brown Eyes]

Well, if you look at marriage in the most cynical way possible, as an institution without actually looking at the emotional components of marriage... it is a contract (a patriarchal contract) in which both parties use each other for various reasons.  It was set up originally to be about exchanging and securing property... and to produce male heirs for the patriarchal line.

So, there's a way in which Alma and Lureen certainly used Ennis and Jack (and vice versa) based on the conventional expectations that surround marriage.  Alma expected Ennis to provide money for her and the children (there's nothing natural about that assumption... it's a conventionally based assumption about what a husband "should" do within the contract of a conventional marriage).

Yes, Jack did make a choice to marry Lureen... but it seems to be more about resignation than enthusiasm on his part.  And, in a cynical way, it also seems to be about his interest in financial security via the Newsomes.

[injest]

Well, if you look at marriage in the most cynical way possible, as an institution without actually looking at the emotional components of marriage... it is a contract (a patriarchal contract) in which both parties use each other for various reasons.  It was set up originally to be about exchanging and securing property... and to produce male heirs for the patriarchal line.

So, there's a way in which Alma and Lureen certainly used Ennis and Jack (and vice versa) based on the conventional expectations that surround marriage.  Alma expected Ennis to provide money for her and the children (there's nothing natural about that assumption... it's a conventionally based assumption about what a husband "should" do within the contract of a conventional marriage).

Yes, Jack did make a choice to marry Lureen... but it seems to be more about resignation than enthusiasm on his part.  And, in a cynical way, it also seems to be about his interest in financial security via the Newsomes.

yes that is a cynical view.

and in view of that why would it NOT be natural for Alma to expect Ennis to provide his part of the 'contract'?? She pumped out the kids, he was supposed to provide. This is the 1960s not yesterday.

Because we like Ennis and are sympathetic to his plight does not make him a saint or his actions less wrong.

and you point out quite well that Jack was a gold digger.

those women very much got screwed....

[Jeff Wrangler]

and you point out quite well that Jack was a gold digger.

Tell you what, that sure is a far cry from what people used to write about the sad and lonely look that crosses his face when he's dancing with Lureen. Now he's a male version of Lorelei Lee. 

[injest]

Tell you what, that sure is a far cry from what people used to write about the sad and lonely look that crosses his face when he's dancing with Lureen. Now he's a male version of Lorelei Lee. 

I know! Trying to place blame is ridiculous...I dont' believe ANY of these people were the conspiring users that they are constantly referred to. That to me subverts the entire point of the movie.

but some people have to have a villian...it has to be Alma and Lureens fault....it has to be Ennis's fault....

no. it was society at that time and place. but it is easier to blame a person than circumstances that are beyond any of the characters control.

[Front-Ranger]

you say you dont' blame them then you portray their actions in a bad light. Ennis was screwing another man and quitting jobs constantly to be with that man, that affected their family, Alma MORE than had reason to ask Ennis to wear protection.

I did not mean to portray Alma in a bad light. She was a rural woman with few prospects in life and probably preoccupied with not having to go back to another lonely ranch house (which is where she probably grew up). Of course she had reason to ask Ennis to wear protection, but she also could have gotten birth control pills, which were available back then. She may have also sensed that Ennis was just having sex with her in order to get her pregnant and in order to have visible "proof" to the whole world that he was "a man." To her credit, she went out and got a job, but she held it against Ennis.

and when did it become 'using' someone to like them and seduce them? as far as she knew Jack was available. Jack could have said no. He was a big boy. I dont' see him as being that weak, he made a CHOICE to get married and have kids.

What I mean by "using" is the way you would use a tool to make work easier or get what you want. I don't mean it like "used up" in the sense of consumed and then thrown out. I don't think Jack felt he had a say in the matter when Lureen seduced him in the T-bird. He was pinned underneath her. If he had refused her, his masculinity would be in question. He did voice some concern, "Whoa, you are in a hurry." In the story, he later said about having children "I didn't want one a either kind" (boy or girl).

[Brown Eyes]

I don't think blame is the issue.  Everyone of the characters is flawed in one way or another... and it doesn't mean that we don't love and have sympathy for the characters.  I totally love Jack and I don't really "blame" him for his financial interest in Lureen.  And, Lureen is my favorite female character in the movie, I think she's great.  I don't particularly like Alma, but I don't really blame her and nor do I blame Ennis.

In one way of looking at BBM, they're all caught up in systems and conventions that don't fit their circumstances at all.

And, Jess, yes, Alma does expect Ennis to do certain things and Ennis expects Alma to do certain things within the traditional contract of marriage.  And on a very base level, they're "using" one another in the expectation that those roles will be fulfilled.  That's how the institution functions as a contract... and it's only within fairly recent history that marriages happened out of concern for love/emotion vs. arrangements made by the parents and families (of course this still happens in many cultures today). And usually this was arranged out of interest in property, politics and heirs.

[Front-Ranger]

I guess I unwittingly started all this when I said, "Can you blame them?" (referring to Jack and Ennis) It was just a rhetorical question. I wasn't asking anyone to go around searching for where to lay the blame. There's no blame here. This is not a court of law. I should have said, "I don't blame them" or I should have avoided use of the word blame at all. The 1960s were certainly not a time of enlightenment, especially in rural places like Wyoming and Texas. And I'm not sure we have progressed much farther than that today! But, maybe a little...

[Jeff Wrangler]

I know! Trying to place blame is ridiculous...I dont' believe ANY of these people were the conspiring users that they are constantly referred to. That to me subverts the entire point of the movie.

but some people have to have a villian...it has to be Alma and Lureens fault....it has to be Ennis's fault....

no. it was society at that time and place. but it is easier to blame a person than circumstances that are beyond any of the characters control.

I agree with you, Jess. 

And it occurs to me that writing about people's actions in circumstances beyond their control is one of Annie Proulx's chief interests, or so I think I've read somewhere.

[injest]

I did not mean to portray Alma in a bad light. She was a rural woman with few prospects in life and probably preoccupied with not having to go back to another lonely ranch house (which is where she probably grew up). Of course she had reason to ask Ennis to wear protection, but she also could have gotten birth control pills, which were available back then. She may have also sensed that Ennis was just having sex with her in order to get her pregnant and in order to have visible "proof" to the whole world that he was "a man." To her credit, she went out and got a job, but she held it against Ennis. What I mean by "using" is the way you would use a tool to make work easier or get what you want. I don't mean it like "used up" in the sense of consumed and then thrown out. I don't think Jack felt he had a say in the matter when Lureen seduced him in the T-bird. He was pinned underneath her. If he had refused her, his masculinity would be in question. He did voice some concern, "Whoa, you are in a hurry." In the story, he later said about having children "I didn't want one a either kind" (boy or girl).

And how many rural women do you think had access to birth control pills? One, you have to go to the doctor to get them, and rural women rarely go to the doctor. Free clinics are FEW and far between, add on the social stigma of being on birth control (and I am personally aware that there still IS some left over even today) add on the fact that if you know your partner, gay, straight, male or female is being unfaithful, then you are at risk of VD well a condom is not an unreasonable request.

[Front-Ranger]

And how many rural women do you think had access to birth control pills? One, you have to go to the doctor to get them, and rural women rarely go to the doctor. Free clinics are FEW and far between, add on the social stigma of being on birth control (and I am personally aware that there still IS some left over even today) add on the fact that if you know your partner, gay, straight, male or female is being unfaithful, then you are at risk of VD well a condom is not an unreasonable request.

Well, me, I was one. I lived in rural Kansas at the time and started taking birth control pills in 1970. No, you did not have to go to a doctor. You could go to a clinic or Planned Parenthood. Yes, they had that then.

But, this is all beside the issue. I'm glad Alma found a way to call a halt to the whole charade, because if she would have had to bear child after unwanted child just so Ennis could prove his masculinity, well that is a GDBOAUS for all concerned.

[Artiste]

Boy, these posts are puzzling to me... may I say.

I think that BOTH Ennis and Jack did not REALLY want the other to have sex with another person!!

That I see that in the BM movie!! But is it so in Annie's story?

Au revoir,

hugs!

[southendmd]

Getting back on topic...

I always thought it interesting that Jack and Ennis can easily talk about women:  in fact, it's Jack who starts it when he says "all this time you ain't found no one else to marry"--->Ennis mentions Cassie --->Jack lies about the ranch foreman's wife. There's no obvious jealousy at all. 

To me, that's their "pact":  "We ain't queer." 

When Jack reveals "the truth is...sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it", that statement is awfully close to "I love you", and therefore unacceptable to Ennis.  Ennis sort of cowers in response. 

I always wondered if Ennis felt too threatened by this, and "made up" the story about August. 

Jack certainly looked dejected that next morning.  Is he expecting yet another rejection from Ennis? 

Then, the whole Mexico thing, confirming Jack is queer.  Which means Ennis is queer.  Their pact is broken.  I think it's less out of jealousy or cheating, but about Ennis being confronted with who he really is.  Ennis makes his threat, then the pathetic "it's cuz of you I'm like this". 

Ending with the "can't stand this anymore, Jack".  Coming from the man who originally said "if you can't fix it, you gotta stand it".

Can't fix it.  Can't stand it.

[forsythia12]

Getting back on topic...

I always thought it interesting that Jack and Ennis can easily talk about women:  in fact, it's Jack who starts it when he says "all this time you ain't found no one else to marry"--->Ennis mentions Cassie --->Jack lies about the ranch foreman's wife. There's no obvious jealousy at all. 

To me, that's their "pact":  "We ain't queer." 

When Jack reveals "the truth is...sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it", that statement is awfully close to "I love you", and therefore unacceptable to Ennis.  Ennis sort of cowers in response. 

I always wondered if Ennis felt too threatened by this, and "made up" the story about August. 

Jack certainly looked dejected that next morning.  Is he expecting yet another rejection from Ennis? 

Then, the whole Mexico thing, confirming Jack is queer.  Which means Ennis is queer.  Their pact is broken.  I think it's less out of jealousy or cheating, but about Ennis being confronted with who he really is.  Ennis makes his threat, then the pathetic "it's cuz of you I'm like this". 

Ending with the "can't stand this anymore, Jack".  Coming from the man who originally said "if you can't fix it, you gotta stand it".

Can't fix it.  Can't stand it.

thank you. 
in fact, thanks to all of you for your responses.  i never looked at it like this.  the fact that they had women as their cover because they were in denial about being gay......or at least jack was for a long time. and i never thought about their 'one shot deal' pact they had.  very good responses.

when jack said "all this time and you still haven't found someone to marry" ( close enough)...do you think there was more to this question?  maybe he wanted to bring up how lonely it was only having someone around a couple times a year.  could he have been setting up a confession about mexico?  or any other man?  i can't really see him doing this, but i always wondered about how jack went from a conversation about marrying another person, screwing a foreman's wife, and then to how much he missed ennis.
jack made it sound like he totally expected ennnis to get married, but would he have been  upset if ennis did have a fiance?

[Brown Eyes]

thank you. 
in fact, thanks to all of you for your responses.  i never looked at it like this.  the fact that they had women as their cover because they were in denial about being gay......or at least jack was for a long time. and i never thought about their 'one shot deal' pact they had.  very good responses.

when jack said "all this time and you still haven't found someone to marry" ( close enough)...do you think there was more to this question?  maybe he wanted to bring up how lonely it was only having someone around a couple times a year.  could he have been setting up a confession about mexico?  or any other man?  i can't really see him doing this, but i always wondered about how jack went from a conversation about marrying another person, screwing a foreman's wife, and then to how much he missed ennis.
jack made it sound like he totally expected ennnis to get married, but would he have been  upset if ennis did have a fiance?

I think Jack is able to talk about Ennis getting married, the "foreman's wife" and then how much he misses Ennis... because any talk about women is, as was said by southendmd, all about their pact.  They're even posturing about their masculinity with each other.  It's a total act, and by this time I think they're almost consciously aware that it's an act.  Neither of them got married out of love and Ennis dating Cassie continues to be about his image.  I think there's a tacit understanding between Ennis and Jack that their relationship is the real one and the meaningful one for the two of them.

I don't think Jack had any intention initially of telling about Mexico.  Ennis figured it out, and then Jack didn't back down.  I think once Ennis figures out the Mexico secret... Jack, in anger, uses this in a new way to demonstrate to Ennis how miserable he's been.  With the explosive argument by the lake, all sorts of topics are finally revealed that had always been kept below the surface before.

[forsythia12]

I think Jack is able to talk about Ennis getting married, the "foreman's wife" and then how much he misses Ennis... because any talk about women is, as was said by southendmd, all about their pact.  They're even posturing about their masculinity with each other.  It's a total act, and by this time I think they're almost consciously aware that it's an act.  Neither of them got married out of love and Ennis dating Cassie continues to be about his image.  I think there's a tacit understanding between Ennis and Jack that their relationship is the real one and the meaningful one for the two of them.

I don't think Jack had any intention initially of telling about Mexico.  Ennis figured it out, and then Jack didn't back down.  I think once Ennis figures out the Mexico secret... Jack, in anger, uses this in a new way to demonstrate to Ennis how miserable he's been.  With the explosive argument by the lake, all sorts of topics are finally revealed that had always been kept below the surface before.

true....
thanks friend

[Jeff Wrangler]

When Jack reveals "the truth is...sometimes I miss you so much, I can hardly stand it", that statement is awfully close to "I love you", and therefore unacceptable to Ennis.  Ennis sort of cowers in response. 

While I'm not disagreeing here, putting this exchange in the context of Jack's statement being awfully close to saying "I love you" also reminds me of my own conviction of Ennis's shyness. I think he's the kind of person made uncomfortable by any discussion of emotions. Even at the very end of the film, after all he's been through, it's still awfully difficult for him to ask Junior if Kurt loves her. I don't think that's only because he's come to understand how much he lost when Jack died. I think it's also because talking about emotional issues in general makes him uncomfortable.

[Brown Eyes]

While I'm not disagreeing here, putting this exchange in the context of Jack's statement being awfully close to saying "I love you" also reminds me of my own conviction of Ennis's shyness. I think he's the kind of person made uncomfortable by any discussion of emotions. Even at the very end of the film, after all he's been through, it's still awfully difficult for him to ask Junior if Kurt loves her. I don't think that's only because he's come to understand how much he lost when Jack died. I think it's also because talking about emotional issues in general makes him uncomfortable.

Oh yes, I completely agree with you about this.

And, on the flip side, I think Jack is desperate to have some discussions about emotions (get emotional validation from Ennis in some way).

So frustrating for both of them.  And, I think this "I miss you so much..." moment is such a great illustration of both of their dilemmas here and an impass they have over communication (again, a common theme as their relationship progresses).

[Jeff Wrangler]

And, on the flip side, I think Jack is desperate to have some discussions about emotions (get emotional validation from Ennis in some way).

Exactly!

So frustrating for both of them.  And, I think this "I miss you so much..." moment is such a great illustration of both of their dilemmas here and an impass they have over communication (again, a common theme as their relationship progresses).

So sad, isn't it? 

[southendmd]

So frustrating for both of them.  And, I think this "I miss you so much..." moment is such a great illustration of both of their dilemmas here and an impass they have over communication (again, a common theme as their relationship progresses).

So sad, isn't it? 

It's one of the saddest moment for me.  They're playing their "bravado" thing, bragging about women, turning it into a joke.  Jack states he'll probably get shot by Lureen or "the husband", and Ennis, jokingly but ominously says, "You probably deserve it."

Right then, Jack's mood shifts, he pauses, and starts with "tell you what, (pause), truth is, (pause), sometimes I miss you so much I can hardly stand it."  And Jack says this with a voice that's softer and higher pitched, almost like the younger Jack.  I just love his delivery of that line.

It's the most direct either of them is to the other with how they feel.  The closest Ennis comes is "Jack, I swear".

[injest]

Well, me, I was one. I lived in rural Kansas at the time and started taking birth control pills in 1970. No, you did not have to go to a doctor. You could go to a clinic or Planned Parenthood. Yes, they had that then.

But, this is all beside the issue. I'm glad Alma found a way to call a halt to the whole charade, because if she would have had to bear child after unwanted child just so Ennis could prove his masculinity, well that is a GDBOAUS for all concerned.

how great for you! I, being raised in the 'hellfire and brimstone' crowd did not have access to these free clinics NOR Planned Parenthood. I am glad they were available for some people and as time went by they spread throughout the country but there isn't one here in our lil hamlet to this day. I am sure if you have the resources and access to a car you could drive to a larger city to obtain these services...unfortunately (as much as we like to pretend otherwise) there are people in this country that still do not have access to basic health care.

Just because some people have options does not mean everyone does. You have YOUR experiences  I grew up on food stamps and government cheese.  I think I know a little about the options available to women locked in rural poverty...

[Shakesthecoffecan]

Whew, this is a complex one. Lets see if I can get my mind around it.

When they first met Ennis was engaged, so their FNIT would in my mind be cheating on Ennis's part if you look at it strictly as a "sex is sex" viewpoint. The nature of their relationship, undefined as it was the first summer, put it in a category of something on the down low ("Nobody's business but ours.") and they seem to have looked at it that way. It was a private matter between the two of them, Ennis counting on that to keep it that way. It was another whole game the two of them played outside of their marriage commitments. They were bound to each other by this too.

Now enter Randall.

Ennis had asked Jack in the short story in 1967 did he ever do it with other guys. Jack after a moment of hesitation said no, and Proulx makes one of her obscure references to indicate he is lying ("had been riding more than just the bulls, not rolling his own.") Ennis states that he has never thought about doing it with another guy. Certainly there is a double standard in place. Ennis expects fidelity from Jack, while not being faithful to Alma. Jack on the other hand wants a commitment from Ennis that he is not prepared to give, so perhaps Jack feels he can seek out solice other places because he cannot make it on  a couple of high altitude fucks once or twice a year.

So in the story I think that it is a part of their not having an instruction manual, not knowing what to do and the major misunderstanding of their relationship. Ennis, who lived a solitary life and had only his daughters and Jack as bright points in his life. Suddenly one third of that happiness lets him know: Your not the only one.

In real life I see a lot of gay relationships face the same obstacles. In cases of people coming out of the closet an involvement with another person of the same sex often is part of the mix.

[injest]

Well, me, I was one. I lived in rural Kansas at the time and started taking birth control pills in 1970. No, you did not have to go to a doctor. You could go to a clinic or Planned Parenthood. Yes, they had that then.

But, this is all beside the issue. I'm glad Alma found a way to call a halt to the whole charade, because if she would have had to bear child after unwanted child just so Ennis could prove his masculinity, well that is a GDBOAUS for all concerned.

today in 2008 there is exactly ONE Planned Parenthood in the entire state of Wyoming, eight public health clinics listed.

In Texas today there are 4 Planned Parenthood centers.

[Shasta542]

Lots of gas stations have condoms, tho.

[optom3]

Exactly!

So sad, isn't it? 

I agree and it is even more poignant in the book.Immediately after the I miss you so much converation, "Ennis put his arm round Jack,pulled him close"
I love that sentence.To me it seems so tender,Jack is in pain and Ennis recognises this. I wish it had been in the film.
I feel by that time Ennis knows he loves Jack.He cannot come to terms with it,which is his tragedy.
He is so jealous of Jack and mexico,and for there to be jealousy,there must be love.
We see no jealousy from Jack,because I think he realises that Ennis has not been with another man.Heis not tested by having to deal with that. I think sex and love have to be separated.Potentially another man has the ability to steal Jack's heart,a woman does not,hence the extreme rage of Ennis.
What is another problem is that Jack has come to terms with his sexuality,Ennis still has not.It is hard enough for Ennis to be with one man,so he is probably also jealous of Jacks ability to go with other men.
It is the extent of Ennis's rage which I think shows the level of his love. It is the extent of Jacks frustration(i wish i knew how to quit you) that shows the extent of his love.
The tragedy is that neither ever reconcile either of the above.But then if they had it would have been a happy ever after film and I would not still sit sobbing,every time I watch it,or read the book.

[southendmd]

I agree and it is even more poignant in the book.Immediately after the I miss you so much converation, "Ennis put his arm round Jack,pulled him close"
I love that sentence.To me it seems so tender,Jack is in pain and Ennis recognises this. I wish it had been in the film.

I agree, Optom, it would have been nice to see that. 

I don't think Ennis was particularly jealous of the Mexico thing.  It's hard to be jealous of a nameless prostitute.  Jack pretty much says it's just for sex.  However, he might have been jealous of Randall.  Except that Ennis didn't find out about Randall until Old Man Twist spilled the beans.  I love the way Ennis subtly flares his nostrils at that point, as if to say, "What's this about another fella?"

[Jeff Wrangler]

I love the way Ennis subtly flares his nostrils at that point, as if to say, "What's this about another fella?"

One of Heath's greatest moments in the film, God rest him. The barely perceptible nostril flare and lip quivver as if he's about to break down and start to cry. You could miss it if you're not watching closely.

And Jack's mother picks up on it. Why, in my opinion, she intervenes at just that point and offers to let Ennis go up to Jack's room. Not so he will find the shirts, but so he can keep his dignity by having his cry in private and not in front of John Twist.

So like a mother who loved an only son. ...

[optom3]

One of Heath's greatest moments in the film, God rest him. The barely perceptible nostril flare and lip quivver as if he's about to break down and start to cry. You could miss it if you're not watching closely.

And Jack's mother picks up on it. Why, in my opinion, she intervenes at just that point and offers to let Ennis go up to Jack's room. Not so he will find the shirts, but so he can keep his dignity by having his cry in private and not in front of John Twist.

So like a mother who loved an only son. ...

Wow, really great point.
Moms who love their kids tend to be so observant.I remember I used to say,of my patients if mom was worried about something,then so was I.
I completely agree,she knows Ennis is about to lose it,and gives him the dignity to do so in private.Whether or not she thinks he will find the shirts,and I think she probably does,she is sensitive enough to let him have his time.
The reason I think she realises he will get the shirts is again,a mothers love and sensitivity.She picks up on the grief of Ennis,and wants him to not only have his privacy,but also a remembrance of the son she obviously loved,and knows that Ennis loved too.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Wow, really great point.
Moms who love their kids tend to be so observant.I remember I used to say,of my patients if mom was worried about something,then so was I.
I completely agree,she knows Ennis is about to lose it,and gives him the dignity to do so in private.Whether or not she thinks he will find the shirts,and I think she probably does,she is sensitive enough to let him have his time.
The reason I think she realises he will get the shirts is again,a mothers love and sensitivity.She picks up on the grief of Ennis,and wants him to not only have his privacy,but also a remembrance of the son she obviously loved,and knows that Ennis loved too.

Actually, I think if she had stopped to think about it, she would have known that he would find the shirts. She's been keeping Jack's room up for something close to twenty years, so I'm sure she knows the shirts are there--after all, it doesn't take Ennis long to find them, and Jack's mother is no fool. I may be parsing things really fine, here, it's just that I don't think her immediate motivation is to send him up to find the shirts. I think it's that she knows Ennis is about to break down.

[BlissC]

I don't think blame is the issue.  Everyone of the characters is flawed in one way or another...

I guess that's perhaps one of the great pulls of the movie/story, in the mirror, because every one of us is flawed in some way, and maybe we see part of ourselves in Jack and Ennis, in some facet of their personality.

One of Heath's greatest moments in the film, God rest him. The barely perceptible nostril flare and lip quiver as if he's about to break down and start to cry. You could miss it if you're not watching closely.

I agree entirely. There's so much about the film that's very subtle, and I suspect that's one of the reasons it's often misunderstood and misinterpreted.

It is the extent of Ennis's rage which I think shows the level of his love. It is the extent of Jacks frustration(i wish i knew how to quit you) that shows the extent of his love.
The tragedy is that neither ever reconcile either of the above.But then if they had it would have been a happy ever after film and I would not still sit sobbing,every time I watch it,or read the book.

A agree. I have to say that I do sometimes have difficulty understanding Jack's seeming disregard for his commitment to Ennis (Randall, Mexico, etc.), but I guess as we've already said, none of the characters are without flaws. As optom3 says, Ennis's rage and Jack's frustration show the true extent of their love, and the fact that neither could reconcile it is a tragedy, but like optom3 says, a happy ever after ending wouldn't have had the same impact, and in my heart, though I hate the way it all turned out, I can't help but feel that they were just fated not to have that happy ending. Doesn't stop me wishing they did though every time I watch it or read it. 

[Katie77]

Wow what a great thread.....I posted the first reply to Leigh-ann's question, just before I went to bed last night, and then this morning there are four pages of posts. Great responses, what a conflicting area this "infidelity thing is....

I guess the bottom line, about infedility, is not so much about someone having sex with someone else, it's about the unfaithfullness to the intimacy and uniqueness of what partners share with one another. Whatever kind of relationship someone has with someone else, they like to think it is special (a one shot thing), they like to think that they are number ONE, they like to think that they fulfill all of their partners needs (even if it is only "every four fuckin years) and they dont want their positon as number one, threatened by anyone else.

Its all about being the most important person in someone's life and not having that position threatened.

The relationships Ennis and Jack had had with women had not come between them or made them doubt either one's connection to their own relationship....but a man, may be thought of as a threat to not only their relationship, but also to them being the number one lover.

The perception of where and what your postion is in someone else's life is usually your own fabrication...in a faithful union, you feel safe and comfortable and trust that your partner has the same perception.....its when you discover that it wasn't as you perceived, then you are hurt, feel decieved, and are jealous.

Almas thought she was in a faithful union with Ennis, and when she found out she wasn't she was hurt and angry. Alma knew, because she saw it with her own eyes, Laureen, probably suspected, but maybe not until Jack's death did she really know that she was not number one with Jack.

Like I said in my first post......infedility is a very hypocritical pastime....can be looked at as right or looked at as wrong, depending on whoever is doing the looking at it.

I have a friend, who has had a few extra marital relationships, and she used to tell me, that although she was unfaithful to her husband, she would never be unfaithful to her lover, nor would she tolerate her lover being unfaithful to her. Hypocracy at its best, and yet in some ways, justified. Maybe its all an ego thing. Maybe its just that we want to be loved and made to feel special, even if its wrong.

[forsythia12]

yep, there are definately relationships i've had where i've been super jealous about any sort of competition, and very laid back with others.  my husband is one of those....i never, or at least not yet, been jealous of any of his female friends or coworkers, and yet other boyfriends in the past i've been over-the-top jealous, and yet those guys never gave me a reason not to trust them.......so i wonder why that is?

also, i don't have the quote, or remember who said it in this thread, but someone mentioned the sex with jack in ts1 being ennis's first time.  i never thought about that.  do you think it's true?  i guess him and alma would've waited until marriage, being religious, or maybe because of the times....i dont' know.  weren't the 60's a promiscuous time?  sorry if these questions have obvious answers, but i don't know too much about that era.

[optom3]

Wow what a great thread.....I posted the first reply to Leigh-ann's question, just before I went to bed last night, and then this morning there are four pages of posts. Great responses, what a conflicting area this "infidelity thing is....

I guess the bottom line, about infedility, is not so much about someone having sex with someone else, it's about the unfaithfullness to the intimacy and uniqueness of what partners share with one another. Whatever kind of relationship someone has with someone else, they like to think it is special (a one shot thing), they like to think that they are number ONE, they like to think that they fulfill all of their partners needs (even if it is only "every four fuckin years) and they dont want their positon as number one, threatened by anyone else.

Its all about being the most important person in someone's life and not having that position threatened.

The relationships Ennis and Jack had had with women had not come between them or made them doubt either one's connection to their own relationship....but a man, may be thought of as a threat to not only their relationship, but also to them being the number one lover.

The perception of where and what your postion is in someone else's life is usually your own fabrication...in a faithful union, you feel safe and comfortable and trust that your partner has the same perception.....its when you discover that it wasn't as you perceived, then you are hurt, feel decieved, and are jealous.

Almas thought she was in a faithful union with Ennis, and when she found out she wasn't she was hurt and angry. Alma knew, because she saw it with her own eyes, Laureen, probably suspected, but maybe not until Jack's death did she really know that she was not number one with Jack.

Like I said in my first post......infedility is a very hypocritical pastime....can be looked at as right or looked at as wrong, depending on whoever is doing the looking at it.

I have a friend, who has had a few extra marital relationships, and she used to tell me, that although she was unfaithful to her husband, she would never be unfaithful to her lover, nor would she tolerate her lover being unfaithful to her. Hypocracy at its best, and yet in some ways, justified. Maybe its all an ego thing. Maybe its just that we want to be loved and made to feel special, even if its wrong.

I used to be so judjemental about fidelity.I was always on my high horse.Having now travelled that road ,I have had to learn to be much less judging of so many things.It is all.the but for the grace of God go I.
What I decided for me personally.is that infidelity is when you give someone else your heart.That is not to say that sex with someone other than your partner is right.But the real crossing the line, is giving of your heart.I am sure many peple have extra marital flings, and all returns to normal,if the transgression is not discovered,sometimes even if it is.
However when you give your heart to someone other than your partner,the relationship can never be the same,even if undiscovered.A part of you is forever else where.Your partner no longer has the total you.

That is why I feel that neither Jack or Ennis are jealous of the women.They know none of them have their lovers hearts.Ennis only becomes truly jealous over Mexico,I think that is because he realises,there is a risk,that he may lose Jack to another man,as in totally lose him.The women pose no threat to either.It is sex and not love,and latterly it is not even sex.
I have to reiterate that these are my views only, and I am neither condoning or condeming extra marital/partner sex.It is up to each individual to make their own call on that one.
What I have learned is, it is very easy to judge and be so sure you would never ever act in a certain way,and then lo and behold you do exactly that.Which is a very humbling experience.You find you are not the person you thought you were.Consequently you then wonder what else you might be capable of.
I know I am going slightly off topic here, but I would said I would never physically harm anyone,and I am pretty sure I would not.But I cannot go into the shop where the scout who abused my son works as a bagger.The last and final time I did, it was all I could do not to seriously hrm him.Particularly as the police have still done nothing(long tale)

So I try now, not to presume how I might act in several situations.Particularly when I consider anyone harming my kids.I try really hard to believe in Karma and what goes round comes round.Which means that if I am honest, at some stage, things I have done will come back to haunt me.Or perhaps the non stop guilt I live with is my Karma.That and the fact that I will forever have to live with what I gave up.Every action has a consequence or reaction.

[Brown Eyes]

also, i don't have the quote, or remember who said it in this thread, but someone mentioned the sex with jack in ts1 being ennis's first time.  i never thought about that.  do you think it's true?  i guess him and alma would've waited until marriage, being religious, or maybe because of the times....i dont' know.  weren't the 60's a promiscuous time?  sorry if these questions have obvious answers, but i don't know too much about that era.

Heya,

I think the conversation where Ennis is talking about Jack being a "sinner" whereas he himself hadn't had the "opportunity" yet is up for interpretation. 

But, from my perspective/ point of view, I think Ennis is trying really hard, in his shy way, to tell Jack that he's engaged to Alma but that they haven't had sex yet.  As Jeff and others have mentioned, Ennis is just so shy and especially uncomfortable talking about emotional/personal/vulnerable topics... I think this is a huge moment for Ennis.  Demonstrating that he trusts Jack so much that he'll even tell him this.  I think maybe a lot of 19 year old guys wouldn't want to admit to being virgins.  To me, this is what this scene implies or lets the audience know about Ennis.  We know he's never had sex with a man before in Proulx's story because she mentions it pretty explicitly in describing the first sexual encounter between Jack and Ennis.  The question about whether or not Jack was a virgin with Ennis, is of course, a big question and is debated a lot.  And the "opportunity" conversation doesn't really give us much info about Jack in that regard.  Because it's Ennis who says "you may be a sinner..." (with the conditional "may" in that statement)... and Jack doesn't really reply to this.

And, LOL, yes, I think the late '60s were a much different time in terms of sexual freedom/experimentation, etc.  But, in 1963 in Wyoming I bet things were pretty conservative relatively speaking.  I mean, the Beatles and Stones hadn't even come to America yet.   By the time of the reunion in '67 the more "free wheeling" '60s were coming about, but still it's hard to know how the '60s counterculture would effect Riverton, WY and Childress, TX.

[BlissC]

the real crossing the line, is giving of your heart.I am sure many peple have extra marital flings, and all returns to normal,if the transgression is not discovered,sometimes even if it is.
However when you give your heart to someone other than your partner,the relationship can never be the same,even if undiscovered.A part of you is forever else where.Your partner no longer has the total you.

That is why I feel that neither Jack or Ennis are jealous of the women.They know none of them have their lovers hearts.Ennis only becomes truly jealous over Mexico,I think that is because he realises,there is a risk,that he may lose Jack to another man,as in totally lose him.The women pose no threat to either.It is sex and not love,and latterly it is not even sex.

I think you might be spot on there Optom. I can't remember where I read it (nothing to do with BBM), but a quote I remember from somewhere is that fear is 50% anger and 50% helplessness (damn! I wish I could remember where I read that and in what context!). Ennis's furious reaction is combination of fear and helplessness.

But, from my perspective/ point of view, I think Ennis is trying really hard, in his shy way, to tell Jack that he's engaged to Alma but that they haven't had sex yet.  As Jeff and others have mentioned, Ennis is just so shy and especially uncomfortable talking about emotional/personal/vulnerable topics... I think this is a huge moment for Ennis.  Demonstrating that he trusts Jack so much that he'll even tell him this. 

Yep, I can see how that would be a huge thing for Ennis, and that would show a huge amount of trust in Jack. One thing I always did wonder though, although IIRC this is before FNIT so maybe I'm way off the mark here, is that there's already a clear attraction between them, and maybe they're talking about their relationship, or rather relationships with men, but there's something about how Jack says "I guess it means the world ends and guys like you and me march off to hell" when Ennis asks him what the Pentecost is that always made me wonder about that conversation.

[forsythia12]

Yep, I can see how that would be a huge thing for Ennis, and that would show a huge amount of trust in Jack. One thing I always did wonder though, although IIRC this is before FNIT so maybe I'm way off the mark here, is that there's already a clear attraction between them, and maybe they're talking about their relationship, or rather relationships with men, but there's something about how Jack says "I guess it means the world ends and guys like you and me march off to hell" when Ennis asks him what the Pentecost is that always made me wonder about that conversation.

yeah, that conversation is interesting, and i never paid much attention to that line.  maybe that's a whole new topic for another thread.  'did jack make an inference about both of them being gay when he said that'??

[Brown Eyes]

Yep, I can see how that would be a huge thing for Ennis, and that would show a huge amount of trust in Jack. One thing I always did wonder though, although IIRC this is before FNIT so maybe I'm way off the mark here, is that there's already a clear attraction between them, and maybe they're talking about their relationship, or rather relationships with men, but there's something about how Jack says "I guess it means the world ends and guys like you and me march off to hell" when Ennis asks him what the Pentecost is that always made me wonder about that conversation.

I think this is a really good question... about what Jack was implying with the statement, "guys like you and me".  What exactly was Jack seeing in Ennis that he already understood to be in common with himself?  I don't recall this particular statement being discussed much in depth before... so this could be a really interesting point of discussion.

Maybe this is a little moment of revelation (to the audience) about Jack's level of "gaydar" when it comes to his understanding of Ennis.  But, a first-time viewer wouldn't know yet about the sexual relationship that develops between Jack and Ennis.  So, an analysis of his statement in that regard has to happen a bit in retrospect.

It seems significant to me that this conversation happens between Jack and Ennis seemingly the afternoon leading up to TS1.

When exactly the attraction between Jack and Ennis becomes apparent to many/most viewers is a really important question.  Would a lot of viewers sense the attraction during the "opportunity" discussion?  Or are most totally shocked by the occurance of TS1?  My hunch is that most are meant to be shocked by TS1.

It's hard to try to see these scenes from the perspective of a first-time viewer (now that we've all seen the film many multiple times).

[BlissC]

When exactly the attraction between Jack and Ennis becomes apparent to many/most viewers is a really important question.  Would a lot of viewers sense the attraction during the "opportunity" discussion?  Or are most totally shocked by the occurance of TS1?  My hunch is that most are meant to be shocked by TS1.

It's hard to try to see these scenes from the perspective of a first-time viewer (now that we've all seen the film many multiple times).

That'd be my hunch too. From talking to friends who only saw the film once, and particularly the ones who didn't really know what it was about (i.e. they'd somehow missed all the hype about the "gay cowboy film"), the reaction tended to be "Whoa! What happened there?!" A lot of it was so subtle it would be easy to miss if you weren't watching carefully. Definitely an interesting topic for debate though.

[myprivatejack]

As I'm a newcomer I don't know if someone has spoken about this before-if so,excuse me...-; do you think that Jack was more faithless than Ennis for the only question of having been with other men?.Or do you believe that his infidelity was a mere sexual relief? Not so important as the fidelity he kept all his life to his inner way of being,his inner feelings to ONLY ONE person?.Or perhaps his fidelity was greater because he became faithful to HIMSELF in an emotional sense,not in sexual?.Opinions,please...

[Front-Ranger]

As I'm a newcomer I don't know if someone has spoken about this before-if so,excuse me...-; do you think that Jack was more faithless than Ennis for the only question of having been with other men?.Or do you believe that his infidelity was a mere sexual relief? Not so important as the fidelity he kept all his life to his inner way of being,his inner feelings to ONLY ONE person?.Or perhaps his fidelity was greater because he became faithful to HIMSELF in an emotional sense,not in sexual?.Opinions,please...

I guess I don't really believe in the concept of "faithfulness" per se. There are a lot of things that can go wrong with being faithful. What I believe in is the idea of loving others without regard for what they will give you in return. Easy to say, hard to do, I know. But it's something to shoot for. Unconditional love, I call it. And Jack was definitely a master of that. However, we know that he had relations with other men for the purpose of sexual relief, after all he said "I can't get by on a couple of HAFs a year."

Yes, he was more true to himself than Ennis, but remember, Ennis had been through a traumatic experience as a child and had reacted by shutting himself off from his feelings. Jack had been through one as well with his dad but Jack's way of reacting was to go his own way.

[optom3]

yeah, that conversation is interesting, and i never paid much attention to that line.  maybe that's a whole new topic for another thread.  'did jack make an inference about both of them being gay when he said that'??

I always thought the use of the word sinners  and hell was a reference to them both being gay.I know it was a different era,but even then surely sinner and hell would have been  harsh words to use for heterosexual sex.
But I bet in rural states, gay sex would be very strongly associated with sin and the fires of hell etc. Probably still is by the most judgemental.

[Front-Ranger]

I always thought the use of the word sinners  and hell was a reference to them both being gay.I know it was a different era,but even then surely sinner and hell would have been  harsh words to use for heterosexual sex.
But I bet in rural states, gay sex would be very strongly associated with sin and the fires of hell etc. Probably still is by the most judgemental.

I'm sorry optom, I have to disagree with you. By "sinner" I believe Ennis was referring to people who, uh, fornicate. I don't think the idea of gayness had quite entered his consciousness at that point, altho it was undoubtedly lurking below. Yes, sinner was and is a harsh word but he may have been using it a bit tongue in cheek, as his following words "I ain't yet had the opportunity" make clear. BBM is a story of contrasts, that's for sure!!

[Brown Eyes]

I'm sorry optom, I have to disagree with you. By "sinner" I believe Ennis was referring to people who, uh, fornicate. I don't think the idea of gayness had quite entered his consciousness at that point, altho it was undoubtedly lurking below. Yes, sinner was and is a harsh word but he may have been using it a bit tongue in cheek, as his following words "I ain't yet had the opportunity" make clear. BBM is a story of contrasts, that's for sure!!

Hi Lee,
I agree here.  While Jack may be ready to understand a budding connection between himself and Ennis in terms of mutual attraction and latent sexual orientation, I don't think Ennis is there yet.

I do think that when Ennis uses the word "sinner" he's referring to sex in general (and probably at this point... heterosexual sex on a conscious level.  His body language and eye-contact with Jack imply that he really is probably already attracted to Jack, but I don't think he's really aware of this at a conscious level yet).


So, when I've said before that this could be a moment of flirting... I think Ennis is almost (possibly) flirting despite himself.  Or, he's sort of stumbling along and not entirely aware of himself or what's really going on yet.

Complex indeed.



I would guess too, that there were and probably still are plenty of fire-and-brimstone types who would easily refer to heterosexual sex outside of marriage with terms like "sin" and "hell."

[Jeff Wrangler]

I'm sorry optom, I have to disagree with you. By "sinner" I believe Ennis was referring to people who, uh, fornicate. I don't think the idea of gayness had quite entered his consciousness at that point, altho it was undoubtedly lurking below. Yes, sinner was and is a harsh word but he may have been using it a bit tongue in cheek, as his following words "I ain't yet had the opportunity" make clear. BBM is a story of contrasts, that's for sure!!

I agree with Lee. That's the way I've understood the scene.

[elomelo]

I agree with Lee on this one.

It's Ennis subtle or not-so-subtle, depending on how your say it, of saying despite what Jack thinks, he's a virgin.

Or maybe, he might be referring to something else...that he has yet to 'forincate' (okay, I so spelled it wrong here, I think..) with Alma but she's a good Christian girl and it'll be 'proper' to wait until after marriage. So he's not a sinner in that sense.

Hmmm..

[Brown Eyes]

Tell you what,  I've just been thinking that the conversation here between Jack and Ennis over rather intimate things (like whether or not Ennis has yet had sex) really is a major moment for Ennis. At this stage, he's really opened up a lot in terms of conversation compared to earlier in the Brokeback summer. And, Ennis really seems to be enjoying the chat.  I mean he generally seems to be in a good mood through the singing (where he's banging along with the stick) and the chat.  It must feel so good for Ennis (who's so alone in the world and so bottled up mostly) to have someone to discuss things with in a non-judgmental (and even sort of fun) way.  It seems important to realize that at this stage when he's still a teenager and still very much trying to figure life-situations out.  Finding Jack as a friend and confidant really must have been a huge relief for him at this stage.

[forsythia12]

Tell you what,  I've just been thinking that the conversation here between Jack and Ennis over rather intimate things (like whether or not Ennis has yet had sex) really is a major moment for Ennis. At this stage, he's really opened up a lot in terms of conversation compared to earlier in the Brokeback summer. And, Ennis really seems to be enjoying the chat.  I mean he generally seems to be in a good mood through the singing (where he's banging along with the stick) and the chat.  It must feel so good for Ennis (who's so alone in the world and so bottled up mostly) to have someone to discuss things with in a non-judgmental (and even sort of fun) way.  It seems important to realize that at this stage when he's still a teenager and still very much trying to figure life-situations out.  Finding Jack as a friend and confidant really must have been a huge relief for him at this stage.

yeah, i agree.  good points!

[forsythia12]

I would guess too, that there were and probably still are plenty of fire-and-brimstone types who would easily refer to heterosexual sex outside of marriage with terms like "sin" and "hell."

yep.  you're right about that.  sex before marriage in general is considered sinfull in many religious sects...so i'd agree that he meant it about fornication....but, again, it is complex and it could be interpreted in many different ways i guess.

[BlissC]

It seems important to realize that at this stage when he's still a teenager and still very much trying to figure life-situations out.  Finding Jack as a friend and confidant really must have been a huge relief for him at this stage.

I agree. It's easy to forget that they were both still very young at this stage in the story/film. Right from the start you get the impression that Jack is more "worldly wise" than Ennis. I know it's towards the end of the film, but Ennis's line about the furthest he's been travelling is around the coffee-pot looking for the handle (I love that line - there's just something so Ennis-like about the phrase!) is quite telling. As a teenager Ennis would have only the experience of being with his family - obviously just his brother and sister after his parents died - whereas Jack has already spread his wings so to speak and been off on the rodeo circuit.

[optom3]

Hi Lee,
I agree here.  While Jack may be ready to understand a budding connection between himself and Ennis in terms of mutual attraction and latent sexual orientation, I don't think Ennis is there yet.

I do think that when Ennis uses the word "sinner" he's referring to sex in general (and probably at this point... heterosexual sex on a conscious level.  His body language and eye-contact with Jack imply that he really is probably already attracted to Jack, but I don't think he's really aware of this at a conscious level yet).


So, when I've said before that this could be a moment of flirting... I think Ennis is almost (possibly) flirting despite himself.  Or, he's sort of stumbling along and not entirely aware of himself or what's really going on yet.

Complex indeed.



I would guess too, that there were and probably still are plenty of fire-and-brimstone types who would easily refer to heterosexual sex outside of marriage with terms like "sin" and "hell."

I like it when people disgree with me.It makes me look at things from a different perspective.Also I am unsure of myself re American living at that time.
I think your idea of a sort of flirting is probably the best (for me ) description so far.
However I am fickle and some one else may change my mind again.

[forsythia12]

I like it when people disgree with me.It makes me look at things from a different perspective.Also I am unsure of myself re American living at that time.
I think your idea of a sort of flirting is probably the best (for me ) description so far.
However I am fickle and some one else may change my mind again.

well, disagree, not disagree.....i think everyone gets something totally different from the film, and from the script.  i mean, i watched it twice with my husband, and some of the stuff he comes up with, i'm like WTF? but, again, that's from a male heterosexual man who saw it in his own way....so, i don't really think there's any RIGHT answers, but just a different point of view.
because the lines don't come with side notes, we all make up our mind about the deeper meaning, or even if there is a deeper meaning at all.  it's our experiences that help shape what we see and what we read into things.  when i first saw the film, i didn't even notice this line.  and then by the 54th time (lol) i thought he just meant that he hadn't been out in life yet....like hasn't done lot's of stuff yet, ...sex, included.... and now i see even more meaning in the line....flirting, etc....
that's why this forum is cool.  everyone has a different view.