sexual orientation, jealousy, and the definition of infidelity.

[Shasta542]

Lots of gas stations have condoms, tho.

[optom3]

Exactly!

So sad, isn't it? 

I agree and it is even more poignant in the book.Immediately after the I miss you so much converation, "Ennis put his arm round Jack,pulled him close"
I love that sentence.To me it seems so tender,Jack is in pain and Ennis recognises this. I wish it had been in the film.
I feel by that time Ennis knows he loves Jack.He cannot come to terms with it,which is his tragedy.
He is so jealous of Jack and mexico,and for there to be jealousy,there must be love.
We see no jealousy from Jack,because I think he realises that Ennis has not been with another man.Heis not tested by having to deal with that. I think sex and love have to be separated.Potentially another man has the ability to steal Jack's heart,a woman does not,hence the extreme rage of Ennis.
What is another problem is that Jack has come to terms with his sexuality,Ennis still has not.It is hard enough for Ennis to be with one man,so he is probably also jealous of Jacks ability to go with other men.
It is the extent of Ennis's rage which I think shows the level of his love. It is the extent of Jacks frustration(i wish i knew how to quit you) that shows the extent of his love.
The tragedy is that neither ever reconcile either of the above.But then if they had it would have been a happy ever after film and I would not still sit sobbing,every time I watch it,or read the book.

[southendmd]

I agree and it is even more poignant in the book.Immediately after the I miss you so much converation, "Ennis put his arm round Jack,pulled him close"
I love that sentence.To me it seems so tender,Jack is in pain and Ennis recognises this. I wish it had been in the film.

I agree, Optom, it would have been nice to see that. 

I don't think Ennis was particularly jealous of the Mexico thing.  It's hard to be jealous of a nameless prostitute.  Jack pretty much says it's just for sex.  However, he might have been jealous of Randall.  Except that Ennis didn't find out about Randall until Old Man Twist spilled the beans.  I love the way Ennis subtly flares his nostrils at that point, as if to say, "What's this about another fella?"

[Jeff Wrangler]

I love the way Ennis subtly flares his nostrils at that point, as if to say, "What's this about another fella?"

One of Heath's greatest moments in the film, God rest him. The barely perceptible nostril flare and lip quivver as if he's about to break down and start to cry. You could miss it if you're not watching closely.

And Jack's mother picks up on it. Why, in my opinion, she intervenes at just that point and offers to let Ennis go up to Jack's room. Not so he will find the shirts, but so he can keep his dignity by having his cry in private and not in front of John Twist.

So like a mother who loved an only son. ...

[optom3]

One of Heath's greatest moments in the film, God rest him. The barely perceptible nostril flare and lip quivver as if he's about to break down and start to cry. You could miss it if you're not watching closely.

And Jack's mother picks up on it. Why, in my opinion, she intervenes at just that point and offers to let Ennis go up to Jack's room. Not so he will find the shirts, but so he can keep his dignity by having his cry in private and not in front of John Twist.

So like a mother who loved an only son. ...

Wow, really great point.
Moms who love their kids tend to be so observant.I remember I used to say,of my patients if mom was worried about something,then so was I.
I completely agree,she knows Ennis is about to lose it,and gives him the dignity to do so in private.Whether or not she thinks he will find the shirts,and I think she probably does,she is sensitive enough to let him have his time.
The reason I think she realises he will get the shirts is again,a mothers love and sensitivity.She picks up on the grief of Ennis,and wants him to not only have his privacy,but also a remembrance of the son she obviously loved,and knows that Ennis loved too.

[Jeff Wrangler]

Wow, really great point.
Moms who love their kids tend to be so observant.I remember I used to say,of my patients if mom was worried about something,then so was I.
I completely agree,she knows Ennis is about to lose it,and gives him the dignity to do so in private.Whether or not she thinks he will find the shirts,and I think she probably does,she is sensitive enough to let him have his time.
The reason I think she realises he will get the shirts is again,a mothers love and sensitivity.She picks up on the grief of Ennis,and wants him to not only have his privacy,but also a remembrance of the son she obviously loved,and knows that Ennis loved too.

Actually, I think if she had stopped to think about it, she would have known that he would find the shirts. She's been keeping Jack's room up for something close to twenty years, so I'm sure she knows the shirts are there--after all, it doesn't take Ennis long to find them, and Jack's mother is no fool. I may be parsing things really fine, here, it's just that I don't think her immediate motivation is to send him up to find the shirts. I think it's that she knows Ennis is about to break down.

[BlissC]

I don't think blame is the issue.  Everyone of the characters is flawed in one way or another...

I guess that's perhaps one of the great pulls of the movie/story, in the mirror, because every one of us is flawed in some way, and maybe we see part of ourselves in Jack and Ennis, in some facet of their personality.

One of Heath's greatest moments in the film, God rest him. The barely perceptible nostril flare and lip quiver as if he's about to break down and start to cry. You could miss it if you're not watching closely.

I agree entirely. There's so much about the film that's very subtle, and I suspect that's one of the reasons it's often misunderstood and misinterpreted.

It is the extent of Ennis's rage which I think shows the level of his love. It is the extent of Jacks frustration(i wish i knew how to quit you) that shows the extent of his love.
The tragedy is that neither ever reconcile either of the above.But then if they had it would have been a happy ever after film and I would not still sit sobbing,every time I watch it,or read the book.

A agree. I have to say that I do sometimes have difficulty understanding Jack's seeming disregard for his commitment to Ennis (Randall, Mexico, etc.), but I guess as we've already said, none of the characters are without flaws. As optom3 says, Ennis's rage and Jack's frustration show the true extent of their love, and the fact that neither could reconcile it is a tragedy, but like optom3 says, a happy ever after ending wouldn't have had the same impact, and in my heart, though I hate the way it all turned out, I can't help but feel that they were just fated not to have that happy ending. Doesn't stop me wishing they did though every time I watch it or read it. 

[Katie77]

Wow what a great thread.....I posted the first reply to Leigh-ann's question, just before I went to bed last night, and then this morning there are four pages of posts. Great responses, what a conflicting area this "infidelity thing is....

I guess the bottom line, about infedility, is not so much about someone having sex with someone else, it's about the unfaithfullness to the intimacy and uniqueness of what partners share with one another. Whatever kind of relationship someone has with someone else, they like to think it is special (a one shot thing), they like to think that they are number ONE, they like to think that they fulfill all of their partners needs (even if it is only "every four fuckin years) and they dont want their positon as number one, threatened by anyone else.

Its all about being the most important person in someone's life and not having that position threatened.

The relationships Ennis and Jack had had with women had not come between them or made them doubt either one's connection to their own relationship....but a man, may be thought of as a threat to not only their relationship, but also to them being the number one lover.

The perception of where and what your postion is in someone else's life is usually your own fabrication...in a faithful union, you feel safe and comfortable and trust that your partner has the same perception.....its when you discover that it wasn't as you perceived, then you are hurt, feel decieved, and are jealous.

Almas thought she was in a faithful union with Ennis, and when she found out she wasn't she was hurt and angry. Alma knew, because she saw it with her own eyes, Laureen, probably suspected, but maybe not until Jack's death did she really know that she was not number one with Jack.

Like I said in my first post......infedility is a very hypocritical pastime....can be looked at as right or looked at as wrong, depending on whoever is doing the looking at it.

I have a friend, who has had a few extra marital relationships, and she used to tell me, that although she was unfaithful to her husband, she would never be unfaithful to her lover, nor would she tolerate her lover being unfaithful to her. Hypocracy at its best, and yet in some ways, justified. Maybe its all an ego thing. Maybe its just that we want to be loved and made to feel special, even if its wrong.

[forsythia12]

yep, there are definately relationships i've had where i've been super jealous about any sort of competition, and very laid back with others.  my husband is one of those....i never, or at least not yet, been jealous of any of his female friends or coworkers, and yet other boyfriends in the past i've been over-the-top jealous, and yet those guys never gave me a reason not to trust them.......so i wonder why that is?

also, i don't have the quote, or remember who said it in this thread, but someone mentioned the sex with jack in ts1 being ennis's first time.  i never thought about that.  do you think it's true?  i guess him and alma would've waited until marriage, being religious, or maybe because of the times....i dont' know.  weren't the 60's a promiscuous time?  sorry if these questions have obvious answers, but i don't know too much about that era.

[optom3]

Wow what a great thread.....I posted the first reply to Leigh-ann's question, just before I went to bed last night, and then this morning there are four pages of posts. Great responses, what a conflicting area this "infidelity thing is....

I guess the bottom line, about infedility, is not so much about someone having sex with someone else, it's about the unfaithfullness to the intimacy and uniqueness of what partners share with one another. Whatever kind of relationship someone has with someone else, they like to think it is special (a one shot thing), they like to think that they are number ONE, they like to think that they fulfill all of their partners needs (even if it is only "every four fuckin years) and they dont want their positon as number one, threatened by anyone else.

Its all about being the most important person in someone's life and not having that position threatened.

The relationships Ennis and Jack had had with women had not come between them or made them doubt either one's connection to their own relationship....but a man, may be thought of as a threat to not only their relationship, but also to them being the number one lover.

The perception of where and what your postion is in someone else's life is usually your own fabrication...in a faithful union, you feel safe and comfortable and trust that your partner has the same perception.....its when you discover that it wasn't as you perceived, then you are hurt, feel decieved, and are jealous.

Almas thought she was in a faithful union with Ennis, and when she found out she wasn't she was hurt and angry. Alma knew, because she saw it with her own eyes, Laureen, probably suspected, but maybe not until Jack's death did she really know that she was not number one with Jack.

Like I said in my first post......infedility is a very hypocritical pastime....can be looked at as right or looked at as wrong, depending on whoever is doing the looking at it.

I have a friend, who has had a few extra marital relationships, and she used to tell me, that although she was unfaithful to her husband, she would never be unfaithful to her lover, nor would she tolerate her lover being unfaithful to her. Hypocracy at its best, and yet in some ways, justified. Maybe its all an ego thing. Maybe its just that we want to be loved and made to feel special, even if its wrong.

I used to be so judjemental about fidelity.I was always on my high horse.Having now travelled that road ,I have had to learn to be much less judging of so many things.It is all.the but for the grace of God go I.
What I decided for me personally.is that infidelity is when you give someone else your heart.That is not to say that sex with someone other than your partner is right.But the real crossing the line, is giving of your heart.I am sure many peple have extra marital flings, and all returns to normal,if the transgression is not discovered,sometimes even if it is.
However when you give your heart to someone other than your partner,the relationship can never be the same,even if undiscovered.A part of you is forever else where.Your partner no longer has the total you.

That is why I feel that neither Jack or Ennis are jealous of the women.They know none of them have their lovers hearts.Ennis only becomes truly jealous over Mexico,I think that is because he realises,there is a risk,that he may lose Jack to another man,as in totally lose him.The women pose no threat to either.It is sex and not love,and latterly it is not even sex.
I have to reiterate that these are my views only, and I am neither condoning or condeming extra marital/partner sex.It is up to each individual to make their own call on that one.
What I have learned is, it is very easy to judge and be so sure you would never ever act in a certain way,and then lo and behold you do exactly that.Which is a very humbling experience.You find you are not the person you thought you were.Consequently you then wonder what else you might be capable of.
I know I am going slightly off topic here, but I would said I would never physically harm anyone,and I am pretty sure I would not.But I cannot go into the shop where the scout who abused my son works as a bagger.The last and final time I did, it was all I could do not to seriously hrm him.Particularly as the police have still done nothing(long tale)

So I try now, not to presume how I might act in several situations.Particularly when I consider anyone harming my kids.I try really hard to believe in Karma and what goes round comes round.Which means that if I am honest, at some stage, things I have done will come back to haunt me.Or perhaps the non stop guilt I live with is my Karma.That and the fact that I will forever have to live with what I gave up.Every action has a consequence or reaction.