sexual orientation, jealousy, and the definition of infidelity.

[Jeff Wrangler]

I'm sorry optom, I have to disagree with you. By "sinner" I believe Ennis was referring to people who, uh, fornicate. I don't think the idea of gayness had quite entered his consciousness at that point, altho it was undoubtedly lurking below. Yes, sinner was and is a harsh word but he may have been using it a bit tongue in cheek, as his following words "I ain't yet had the opportunity" make clear. BBM is a story of contrasts, that's for sure!!

I agree with Lee. That's the way I've understood the scene.

[elomelo]

I agree with Lee on this one.

It's Ennis subtle or not-so-subtle, depending on how your say it, of saying despite what Jack thinks, he's a virgin.

Or maybe, he might be referring to something else...that he has yet to 'forincate' (okay, I so spelled it wrong here, I think..) with Alma but she's a good Christian girl and it'll be 'proper' to wait until after marriage. So he's not a sinner in that sense.

Hmmm..

[Brown Eyes]

Tell you what,  I've just been thinking that the conversation here between Jack and Ennis over rather intimate things (like whether or not Ennis has yet had sex) really is a major moment for Ennis. At this stage, he's really opened up a lot in terms of conversation compared to earlier in the Brokeback summer. And, Ennis really seems to be enjoying the chat.  I mean he generally seems to be in a good mood through the singing (where he's banging along with the stick) and the chat.  It must feel so good for Ennis (who's so alone in the world and so bottled up mostly) to have someone to discuss things with in a non-judgmental (and even sort of fun) way.  It seems important to realize that at this stage when he's still a teenager and still very much trying to figure life-situations out.  Finding Jack as a friend and confidant really must have been a huge relief for him at this stage.

[forsythia12]

Tell you what,  I've just been thinking that the conversation here between Jack and Ennis over rather intimate things (like whether or not Ennis has yet had sex) really is a major moment for Ennis. At this stage, he's really opened up a lot in terms of conversation compared to earlier in the Brokeback summer. And, Ennis really seems to be enjoying the chat.  I mean he generally seems to be in a good mood through the singing (where he's banging along with the stick) and the chat.  It must feel so good for Ennis (who's so alone in the world and so bottled up mostly) to have someone to discuss things with in a non-judgmental (and even sort of fun) way.  It seems important to realize that at this stage when he's still a teenager and still very much trying to figure life-situations out.  Finding Jack as a friend and confidant really must have been a huge relief for him at this stage.

yeah, i agree.  good points!

[forsythia12]

I would guess too, that there were and probably still are plenty of fire-and-brimstone types who would easily refer to heterosexual sex outside of marriage with terms like "sin" and "hell."

yep.  you're right about that.  sex before marriage in general is considered sinfull in many religious sects...so i'd agree that he meant it about fornication....but, again, it is complex and it could be interpreted in many different ways i guess.

[BlissC]

It seems important to realize that at this stage when he's still a teenager and still very much trying to figure life-situations out.  Finding Jack as a friend and confidant really must have been a huge relief for him at this stage.

I agree. It's easy to forget that they were both still very young at this stage in the story/film. Right from the start you get the impression that Jack is more "worldly wise" than Ennis. I know it's towards the end of the film, but Ennis's line about the furthest he's been travelling is around the coffee-pot looking for the handle (I love that line - there's just something so Ennis-like about the phrase!) is quite telling. As a teenager Ennis would have only the experience of being with his family - obviously just his brother and sister after his parents died - whereas Jack has already spread his wings so to speak and been off on the rodeo circuit.

[optom3]

Hi Lee,
I agree here.  While Jack may be ready to understand a budding connection between himself and Ennis in terms of mutual attraction and latent sexual orientation, I don't think Ennis is there yet.

I do think that when Ennis uses the word "sinner" he's referring to sex in general (and probably at this point... heterosexual sex on a conscious level.  His body language and eye-contact with Jack imply that he really is probably already attracted to Jack, but I don't think he's really aware of this at a conscious level yet).


So, when I've said before that this could be a moment of flirting... I think Ennis is almost (possibly) flirting despite himself.  Or, he's sort of stumbling along and not entirely aware of himself or what's really going on yet.

Complex indeed.



I would guess too, that there were and probably still are plenty of fire-and-brimstone types who would easily refer to heterosexual sex outside of marriage with terms like "sin" and "hell."

I like it when people disgree with me.It makes me look at things from a different perspective.Also I am unsure of myself re American living at that time.
I think your idea of a sort of flirting is probably the best (for me ) description so far.
However I am fickle and some one else may change my mind again.

[forsythia12]

I like it when people disgree with me.It makes me look at things from a different perspective.Also I am unsure of myself re American living at that time.
I think your idea of a sort of flirting is probably the best (for me ) description so far.
However I am fickle and some one else may change my mind again.

well, disagree, not disagree.....i think everyone gets something totally different from the film, and from the script.  i mean, i watched it twice with my husband, and some of the stuff he comes up with, i'm like WTF? but, again, that's from a male heterosexual man who saw it in his own way....so, i don't really think there's any RIGHT answers, but just a different point of view.
because the lines don't come with side notes, we all make up our mind about the deeper meaning, or even if there is a deeper meaning at all.  it's our experiences that help shape what we see and what we read into things.  when i first saw the film, i didn't even notice this line.  and then by the 54th time (lol) i thought he just meant that he hadn't been out in life yet....like hasn't done lot's of stuff yet, ...sex, included.... and now i see even more meaning in the line....flirting, etc....
that's why this forum is cool.  everyone has a different view.