Proulx "these characters began to get very damn real"

[optom3]

When I was re reading,yet again Proulxs' essay Getting movied.Those words leapt off the page at me. If the characters wre becomming so real to her,something she says had never happened to her before,what chance did we the viewer stand.We were witnessing the whole thing unfold not just in words,but in superlative acting and wide screen technicolour.

Many of us have wondered why we became so involved in the film.Is this the answer.She also intersetingly implies the characters were disobedient.She says they were unlike her other characters "who do what they are told".
She finishes that section by saying "Jack and Ennis soon seemed more vivid than many of the flesh and blood people around me"

Is that not something that has happened for many of us? Jack and Ennis became real,we lived their pain,we truly felt it, and so were deeply impacted by the film beyond anything we had experienced before.
Just as Proulx writing the story experienced a first in terms of her characters becomming real,so was it not for many of us a first.

It almost appears to me at least that both writer and viewer experienced something akin to an epiphany.It may be argued that the same was also true for Heath and Jake,tackling probably the roles of their lives.They too,particularly I feel Heath,became the characters.
It all became real for all of us.Hence the immense sensation of desolation and loss.

I would as always, appreciate others thoughts on the matter.

[Artiste]

Optom, you sure bring up a great subject!

I totally agree with you!

I think that Annie feels for gay men, finds that society isolates them and that, therefore, gay men isloated themselves (and still do to certain degrees), in order to save their lives. Lives are REAL therefore for her... and for US too!!

She also adds much more?

Awaiting your news and will read them after going into the snow to shop for mother who has a cold,

take care,

au revoir,
hugs!

[Shakesthecoffecan]

You know how we have all felt, and wrote about here. Can you imagine what it was like, for months on end, having Jack and Ennis in your head and you were all alone in the world with them? That would have been quite a load to carry.

[Mandy21]

By the same token, what about Susan and Larry, the screenwriters?  Taking a 53-page book and having to crawl inside not only Jack's and Ennis's (and all the other character's) minds, hearts, and souls, but into Annie's as well?  And turning that into 2 hours and 14 minutes of heaven for all of us?  I'm sure their task was no less daunting, and no less real and traumatic, than Annie's.

[myprivatejack]

IMO,we feel so identified with the characters because they're so real; and they're so real because there's no point of heroicism in them.On one hand,they needed to be a kind of heroes to deffend their love and the life's style that this meant, if they'd arrived to share this "sweet life" in such a difficult social and religious environment.But thier heroicism comes from the normality,not from any extraordinary situation or behaviour.And on the other hand,as I said in another topic,they're just like all of us,with their-and our-faults,mistakes,doubts,and even this unavoidable hurt to third persons-like Alma's case,f.e.-.They're  not like the romantic prince of a Fair's tale;THEY´RE REAL,AUTHENTICAL,AND HUMAN.
And they're so in a context of dignification of homosexuality roles,far from the cliches that almost always have introduced them as a "queer", a neurotic or,OMG¡ a pshyco killer...They're two persons who love and are loved in a way that most of the current love stories don't show.I think it's easy to get identified with them no matter our sexual tendencies or gender,because they love as any of us would be loved and love,or as some of us have loved and be loved in any time of our lives.Simply this.

[optom3]

You know how we have all felt, and wrote about here. Can you imagine what it was like, for months on end, having Jack and Ennis in your head and you were all alone in the world with them? That would have been quite a load to carry.

I cannot begin to imagine. A very valid point.
In the "getting movied" she points out that it took weeks just to get one phrase right!!!
Intersestingly my favourite scene in movie and s.s, the dozy embrace is the one she says was the most difficult to write.
All I can say Is I salute Proulx,Ang,Ossana,McMurty,Heath,Jake et al.You all got it sooo right!!!

The ones who got it sooo wrong were the Academy.They were cowards, compared to the courage displayed by all in the film and s.s. A bit like the contrasts in the film itself.I wonder if "they" get the irony there? Let me think about that for a nano second.NO.

I think Proulx herself sums it up completely when she writes "I was not prepared for the emotional hammering I got when I saw it"
'seeing the film disturbed me"
'my story was not mangled but enlarged into huge and gripping imagery that rattled minds and squeezed hearts" (Too right,it certainly squeezed my heart.)

I guess that is why she is such an amazing writer,and I am not.She can sum it all up perfectly and succinctly !!!!!

[Artiste]

Funny how they get more real for me, everyday?

Why is that?

Or should I say how is that?

News from you and from all awaited,

au revoir,
hugs!

[optom3]

Funny how they get more real for me, everyday?

Why is that?

Or should I say how is that?

News from you and from all awaited,

au revoir,
hugs!

It is odd ,I  keep thinking the effect will lessen,but instead it gets worse each day.
Also each day it becomes more and more hard to believe that Heath has gone. It should get easier.I am almost beginning to feel bewitched.Normally I am a reasonably sane person.
When it comes to BBM I seem to have lost all reason.

[winterhug]

Optom, you have started a great topic! I'll add some ramblings:

I thought I was long over the effects of Jack and Ennis and had actually reduced my obsessive preoccupation with them… well, at least somewhat… but the more I continue to read, the more their rampant recurrences as very real people come into my brain!. Like you, I read Annie Proulx's essay "Getting Movied!” If the author was so convinced of the reality of these characters then certainly I can understand why a reader/viewer like me would come to know them as real too. I agree with your analysis of “what chance did we have?” So in a sense I am relieved because there is more going on here than just my dumb-ass obsession.

Some authors say they don't feel like they are in control of their work, rather they become channels for stories, characters, situations that need to come out and so they learn to let it flow through them without hindrance. In this sense, characters do take on a life of their own and become real. Personally after my limited BBM exposures (and I do consider myself sane most of the time) I now feel the presence of what I call an Ennis Spirit, which is a very loving, eager, inviting and welcoming spirit, so pleasant to feel. No, it's not an imaginary friend and there is no embodiment, but it is real and present to me post-BBM.

Here's another thought: Now that Heath's spirit has been set free of his body (all the worse for us, but possibly all the better for him!) I want to believe his spirit is a part of this greater spirit or field of energy that all of us apparently sense… otherwise why would we be here? I don't know what happens after death-I'm reading Deepak Chopra's book "Life After Death" to get some clues. Of course no one ever came back to prove these things. Chopra thinks the Christian conceptions of heaven are similar to eternal assisted living! I hate to admit it, but he's got a point. He believes there are levels of existence present right here but we don't focus ourselves to tune into them. One of the ways we can get a hint of these other planes of reality is to pay attention to the subtle things around us. What are those? Perhaps one subtle force for me is this Ennis Spirit I'm experiencing. For me, spirit & spirituality is definitely real, so the thought of Ennis and/or Heath's spirit being real and present in our midst is not a tough sell. Like Annie Proulx says after she lists all the details that gave the film authenticity and authority for her (one of them being a speckled enamel coffeepot), “People may doubt that young men fall in love up on the snowy heights, but no one disbelieves the speckled coffeepot, and if the coffeepot is true, so is the other.”

You are so correct in saying that Heath BECAME Ennis—there is no way anyone could give us Ennis like he did without BEING him! I think Ennis’ “creator” agrees as she talks about Heath Ledger in “Getting Movied:”
“…the cast and crew of this film, from the director down, had gotten into my mind and pulled out images. Especially did I feel this about Heath Ledger, who knew better than I how Ennis felt and thought, whose intimate depiction of the achingly needy ranch kid builds with frightening power. It is an eerie sensation to see events you have imagined in the privacy of your mind, and tried hopelessly to transmit to others through little black marks on a page, loom up before you in an overwhelming visual experience.”

How rich this story!!!

[optom3]

I firmly believe that if you are truly open you will see.I know that sounds cryptic.I have experienced some very odd things in my life.Yet if questioned would strongly deny being religious per se.However I have both seen and felt things that I cannot scientifically explain away.That annoys the cynic in me.
I do think that I am very open and susceptible to things though.And so for me Ennis and Jack became very real.In a way I have not experienced before.
I truly think this was because I watched the film at a time when I was doing some serious and honest self evaluation.
So I was very open.Almost raw.This has been both painful but also very illuminating and in many ways has freed me.
To others it was just a film,maybe because they were at the time watching with closed eyes.As in there are none so blind as those who will not see,or allow themselves to see.
Perhaps some people are unable to cope emotionally,with the journey you have to take,to truly understand and reveal yourself.I found it incredibly painful,but there are rewards in self awareness,for those who are willing to take the plunge.

[Artiste]

Thanks optom!

You say:
And so for me Ennis and Jack became very real.In a way I have not experienced before.
..........

Fiona:
to that I agree. Si... yes, many persons do that too.
....

Do these charactors (Ennis, Jack, Alma, Lureen, etc.), become more real-like every day??

The more I dwell about Annie/the BM movie, the more each become real!! ?? Wonder if that is ss with most persons??

Hugs! Or is it spiritual meaning?? Or a dream we want each to realise??

[brokeplex]

what AP was discussing may be something that happens to some authors, as they continue to internalize their characters.

[optom3]

what AP was discussing may be something that happens to some authors, as they continue to internalize their characters.

Yes that is exactly what she is saying.However she states that although she had heard othe writers ,talk of this phenomenon,it was new to her.
I found that very interesting,as this was by no means her first,story.
I wondered if this was the reason that the film and ss became so real to so many of us.
It must have been a very powerful thing for Proulx to experience after so many years of writing,to suddenly find the characters becomming real to her.It was certainly the first time for me, as both a reader and film goer, to find  characters who not only semed real,but started to invade my life.From dawn to dusk.
Could it be that what Proulx experienced was so powerful,that when coupled with truly beyond words acting,that it transmitted to us the audience.
It certainly seemed so in some measure to me.I do not think sadly that I will ever be that affected again by a film.To this day it still is pervasive in so many aspects of my life.
Thanks to BetterMost I now feel blessed to have felt so,instead of a little crazy.

[brokeplex]

Yes that is exactly what she is saying.However she states that although she had heard othe writers ,talk of this phenomenon,it was new to her.
I found that very interesting,as this was by no means her first,story.
I wondered if this was the reason that the film and ss became so real to so many of us.
It must have been a very powerful thing for Proulx to experience after so many years of writing,to suddenly find the characters becomming real to her.It was certainly the first time for me, as both a reader and film goer, to find  characters who not only semed real,but started to invade my life.From dawn to dusk.
Could it be that what Proulx experienced was so powerful,that when coupled with truly beyond words acting,that it transmitted to us the audience.
It certainly seemed so in some measure to me.I do not think sadly that I will ever be that affected again by a film.To this day it still is pervasive in so many aspects of my life.Thanks to BetterMost I now feel blessed to have felt so,instead of a little crazy.

perhaps on the other hand, you will look at films differently from now on, and gain more from the experiences.

first being moved so strongly by a work of art, or literature, that one becomes obsessive over it is a treasured experience. it is like your first love, it can never really be replicated and it becomes a closely guarded memory.

[optom3]

perhaps on the other hand, you will look at films differently from now on, and gain more from the experiences.

first being moved so strongly by a work of art, or literature, that one becomes obsessive over it is a treasured experience. it is like your first love, it can never really be replicated and it becomes a closely guarded memory.

That is such a good analogy.I love it.I have struggled to put into words what seeing the film for the 1st time was like,and it is exactly like first love.I stiil love/ache with every subsequent viewing,but although other films may well affect me in the future,they will never replicate that BBM experience.It is a treasured memory and experience.And indeed a closely guarded precious thing.Just like my first love,certain,songs or smells or other things remind me of BBM.It is like a comforter which I hug to myself from time to time.
Thankyou for so eloquently describing it for me.

[Artiste]

That is all well optom and brokeplex!!

But why are they getting to be more and more like REAL ??

Hugs!

[optom3]

That is all well optom and brokeplex!!

But why are they getting to be more and more like REAL ??

Hugs!

I think for me they become more real,because they have now come to represent some unresolved issues in my life.They have now become synonomous with those issues.The issues are very real, ergo so are Jack and Ennis.I can no longer seperate them.
They are now the very visualisation of those things,and the fact that I can watch the film whenever I want,just makes them even more tangible.It has become art imitating life for me.It is also further complicated by the fact that I fell in love with Jack and Ennis and my unresolved isues,involve love.So it becomes like the eternal triangle.
I cannot speak for others,but that is how it is for me.I know my love (problem )is real,and by asociation so is my love for Jack and Ennis.My love has not faded over time,indeed has grown stronger,so it seems logical that for me Jack and Ennis grow more real daily.Now it could be that for others there is some strong asociation,which "feeds" and nurtures the growing reality.As I have said in other posts.Our imagination is our most powerful tool.If we choose to use it to its fullest extent.
After all when some one dies they are no longer physically here,but that does not stop our love.We love then a physically intangible thing.How much more real are Jack and Ennis when we watch them on film.

[Penthesilea]

first being moved so strongly by a work of art, or literature, that one becomes obsessive over it is a treasured experience. it is like your first love, it can never really be replicated and it becomes a closely guarded memory.

I love this.

[Monika]

I love this.

i agree, I had to post  it on my LJ, with all due credit of course

[BlissC]

But why are they getting to be more and more like REAL ??

That, I don't know, only that with each day they become more and more real to me. Maybe as Optom says it's unresolved issues, maybe it's the mirror effect, maybe the fact that they're not perfect, it's not a perfect love story, they're human, with faults, and they made mistakes as we all do. I just thank daily whoever's up there in that big blue sky that Annie wrote about them and they became real to her, and that Ang Lee and Larry McMurty and Diana Ossana translated them so beautifully to the screen.

From the start they've been real to me, but my "epiphany" happened last week at work (and coincidentally I was sitting exactly where I was when I heard the news about Heath's death). For the past couple of months I've been saying that I'm definitely going to put aside time to make progress on my novel, which I've been kind of working on ever since I was at college, and the characters in that long ago became "real" to me - they chatter away in my head when I'm trying to do other stuff, don't do as I expect them to, and join me for a chat at work when I pop out for a smoke. These last few weeks though I've been vaguely toying with the idea of writing a fanfic of my own, but just toying with the idea.

One lunch time though, fortunately when everyone else was out of the office, because otherwise they'd have thought I was crazy, Jack and Ennis were suddenly more real than they'd ever been before to me, and they were talking in my head. I was trying to work, and I ended up sitting with my head in my hands, with my hands over my ears, talking out loud and saying, "PLEASE guys, keep it down will ya? I'm trying to work here! Come back tonight, I don't care how late, but I NEED to get this finished, so just give me a break, huh?"

The afternoon passed in a daze, and all afternoon I was wearing this big grin because Jack and Ennis are REAL!

I don't "get" a lot about religion, and I've never believed myself, but I'm beginning to see how those who do believe can have 'visions' and revelations get so intense about wanting to share their beliefs with others.

[Artiste]

Thanks bliss!

You say:
  The afternoon passed in a daze, and all afternoon I was wearing this big grin because Jack and Ennis are REAL!

 
..........

Bliss, may I say, like I am an artist-painter who create on canvas, you are an artist who needs such charactors to animate your story... so you live them like Annie did and does... and we do too!!

WE, artists, often have such imagination come to us in different forms; illusion as real moments... as one form, I suppose. What you say, comes to me likewise at times too!! We never know when, do we??

Would love to read your story... writer you are interesting us!

Every day, we come to see Ennis and Jack, Alma and Lureen, etc., as OUR family, and, therfore, they become real like you say!!

Keep care, hugs!  Long to see your story!! I would be pleased to read it!

[Shakesthecoffecan]

I have tried in the past, without much suscess, to write a story about the spirits of the marginalized throughout time trying to get their story told in this world. Their coming together to decide on whose would be told and hiring the muse to find a likely recipient for it.

Jack and Ennis are real to me, because I fell in love with them in the dark of a movie theater.

[Artiste]

Thanks Shakestheground!

Like you post!

Tell more ??

Au revoir,
hugs!  And can you tell about the pic enclosed, since you know First Nations?

[BlissC]

Jack and Ennis are real to me, because I fell in love with them in the dark of a movie theater.

I love that line! 

[BlissC]

Keep care, hugs!  Long to see your story!! I would be pleased to read it!

I think you may have to wait a while. I think the Jack and Ennis one's coming first. Now they're in my head I doubt they'll quit yammering until I write about them. In the meantime I just have to try and placate the others and tell them I haven't forgotten them and I do still love them, and I'll get to writing about them in a while (I think the Jack/Ennis one's going to be a short one anyhow, though who can tell? Once I start writing only they can tell me when the story's done)

[Artiste]

Thanks bliss!

I wonder what they are telling or to tell you?? !!

I could NOT sleep for nights as Lureen was also in my head and heart for many days!!

Any hint as to what Ennis or Jack is telling you??

Like real things? Like they are hinting at real issues?

Hugs!

[BlissC]

Jack's pretty chatty, as always. Ennis just keeps looking at him with that lop-sided smile of his as if he's thinking, "You're a crazy man, but I love you." He doesn't let on much.

[Artiste]

Thanks Bliss!

Do you think that Ennis will start to be more talkative??

Somehow?

Hugs!

[BlissC]

I sure hope so!

[Artiste]

We may think of Ennis not talking that much!

He does say things...

and ones we remember well, right??
..........

Plus, his looks at Jack... are like talks, I feel.

That makes him more real to me!!

You understand?

Hugs!

[optom3]

We may think of Ennis not talking that much!

He does say things...

and ones we remember well, right??
..........

Plus, his looks at Jack... are like talks, I feel.

That makes him more real to me!!

You understand?

Hugs!

A picture paints a thousand words,and so do the shy smiles and looks of Ennis.

[BlissC]

A picture paints a thousand words,and so do the shy smiles and looks of Ennis.

So true. I think they could have spent the whole film just communicating in looks and smiles and not said a word (kinda like a variation on the old silent movies) and they'd still have had the same impact.

[Artiste]

Thanks bliss, thanks optom!!

I agree with you two!!

So, in a way it's a Marcel Marceau movie this BM film? He was real!!

Why?

I have an idea!

Hugs, hugs!!

[brokeplex]

That is such a good analogy.I love it.I have struggled to put into words what seeing the film for the 1st time was like,and it is exactly like first love.I stiil love/ache with every subsequent viewing,but although other films may well affect me in the future,they will never replicate that BBM experience.It is a treasured memory and experience.And indeed a closely guarded precious thing.Just like my first love,certain,songs or smells or other things remind me of BBM.It is like a comforter which I hug to myself from time to time.
Thankyou for so eloquently describing it for me.

You are entirely welcome, I am delighted to share with you the deeply moving experience that Brokeback has been for me. 

[brokeplex]

I love this.

thank you, I have spoken from my heart. 

[optom3]

Thanks bliss, thanks optom!!

I agree with you two!!

So, in a way it's a Marcel Marceau movie this BM film? He was real!!

Why?

I have an idea!

Hugs, hugs!!

I used to love watching Marcel Marceau.Another clever idea of yours. I wonder if some of Ang's culture creeps into his directing.After all the culture he is from, uses a lot of dance and mime,with little or no spoken words,to convey very elaborate tales.It would be perfectly feasible that Ang took these elements  and wove them into the film,particularly with the looks, and shy/sly glances ,between Jack and Ennis.Not forgetting the smiles.He is definitely a less is more director,and the closed nature of the relationship,and Ennis in particular,lends iself perfectly to something that is almost akin to mime.

These discusions never cease to amaze me the turns they take.It is like thinking you know a road really well,because you drive down it every day.Then one day your car breaks down and you decide to walk.All of a sudden,there is a whole new perspective,and the familiar road,is now seen completely differently.Interesting!!!

[BlissC]

These discusions never cease to amaze me the turns they take.It is like thinking you know a road really well,because you drive down it every day.Then one day your car breaks down and you decide to walk.All of a sudden,there is a whole new perspective,and the familiar road,is now seen completely differently.Interesting!!!

That's what I love about this place - it's like a never-ending English Lit debate, but with a story you love rather than something the teacher made you read for homework. Long may it continue!

[optom3]

That's what I love about this place - it's like a never-ending English Lit debate, but with a story you love rather than something the teacher made you read for homework. Long may it continue!

Could not agree more!!! Chaucer and the like at school,killed my love of literature for so long,I took a completely different road to science,instead.
Endless disecting of works which had no relevance or resonance for me,yawn!!! BBM has re awkened my love of the written word,albeit, bittersweet. It also keeps me occupied now I no longer work,while ensuring my brain cells do not completely,atrophy.

[Artiste]

Now, finally we have again a story with real like persons: Annie's one!

And so real like Ennis and Jack, Alma and Lureen... in the BM movie!

1 + 1 = a great one!!


Rewarding these actors and actresses, and you all in the production, and in viewers: rose of Love and Oeace!!

[brokeplex]

Now, finally we have again a story with real like persons: Annie's one!

And so real like Ennis and Jack, Alma and Lureen... in the BM movie!

1 + 1 = a great one!!


Rewarding these actors and actresses, and you all in the production, and in viewers: rose of Love and Oeace!!

I love roses, those are so beautiful I can almost smell them.

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

Do you and others, know that petals of roses can be eaten?

Used like in making jams?

But I do NOT think that all roses can be used... as some can be dangerous ??

Wonder which rose would be to make Ennis' garden? Jack's? To make their roles more real? Maybe even in BM  II?? Dare I hope!

Au revoir,
huigs!

[Artiste]

I can see Ennis and Jack living together and having a rose garden!

And here are some red roses for them to make them like very damn real in that garden!

Hugs!

[Artiste]

Why these?

They look like climbers to me.

And Ennis and Jack did climb that Brokeback Mountain, remember?

In order to make it a more real story, did Annie mention roses?

Au revoir,
hugs!

[BlissC]

Aguirre did.

[Artiste]

Thanks bliss!

Is Aguirre like a real person to you?

To anyone?

Hugs!

[optom3]

I can see Ennis and Jack living together and having a rose garden!

And here are some red roses for them to make them like very damn real in that garden!

Hugs!

I think it would have been more practical.A vegetable garden.Milk and beef from the cow and calf operation and of course fish!!!!!!
But I like your flower pictures anyway.So carry on,they bring colour into my days.

[Artiste]

Yes?

Qui fait quoi?

Ennis does what?

Jack does what?

Of course, both would fish!! ?? HA! HA!

Hugs! And one Julia Child Rose for their child they would adopt? Or Jack would have his son every two weeks??

[BlissC]

Is Aguirre like a real person to you?

No, he doesn't, I guess partly because he doesn't figure very prominently in the story, except of course it's Aguirre who brings them down off the mountain early. I can't understand his attitudes (though I recognise there's plenty of people out there who share his attitudes), in that it's not something I can relate to, so I find it difficult to get inside his head, and therefore he doesn't seem as real to me, not in the same way Ennis and Jack are.

for their child they would adopt? Or Jack would have his son every two weeks??

Jack would have his son every once in a while. I like MAdLori's "Human Interest/Two Crows Joy" fanfics though, where Alma Jnr ends up living with them on their ranch, where she has a good relationship with both of them and Jack treats her as his own daughter, not just Ennis's daughter.

[myprivatejack]

Thanks bliss!

Is Aguirre like a real person to you?

To anyone?

Hugs!

Maybe He's the incarnation of intolerance,lack of respect and a very distorted way of seeing what a man must be.For me,he could be more a symbolism.

Jack would have his son every once in a while. I like MAdLori's "Human Interest/Two Crows Joy" fanfics though, where Alma Jnr ends up living with them on their ranch, where she has a good relationship with both of them and Jack treats her as his own daughter, not just Ennis's daughter.

There's another fanfic where both of them spend Christmas time with Bobby,whom they considered as "their boy",since Ennis always wanted to have one.And they're like a real family during these days.It's very touching.

[Artiste]

Thanks bliss, thanks optom, thanks myprivatejack!!!

Ennis always wanted a boy ?

Any proof of that wanting?

Hugs! Or is that because Ennis seems very damn real to us and we imagine him wanting a male child, since he has girls only with Alma... as his children ?? !!

[optom3]

Thanks bliss, thanks optom, thanks myprivatejack!!!

Ennis always wanted a boy ?

Any proof of that wanting?

Hugs! Or is that because Ennis seems very damn real to us and we imagine him wanting a male child, since he has girls only with Alma... as his children ?? !!

In the SS in their very last meeting Ennis say to Jack,"I used a want boy for kid" "but just got little girlls"
Jacks reply is so full of pathos "I didn't want none of either kind" "but fuck all has worked the way I wanted.Nothin never come to my hand the right way"
To think not one single thng has worked out for him.
I know some things have been pretty terrible for me,but at least some things have been good.It is just so desperate as we then learn that this will be their last meeting.
However on a lighter note,at least that conversation was followed by sex.Good ex as well described as the brilliant charge of their coouplings.However from then on it's downhill pretty fast,

[Artiste]

Thanks optom!

You say:
Jacks reply is so full of pathos "I didn't want none of either kind" "but fuck all has worked the way I wanted.Nothin never come to my hand the right way"

.........

Optom and to all too:
this leads me to believe much more that Jack's boy is NOT his... but he accepts him!!

What do you think?

Hugs! That is what makes it much more damn real twice or more for me!!

[brokeplex]

Thanks bliss!

Is Aguirre like a real person to you?

To anyone?

Hugs!

yes, Aguirre is very real indeed! Randy Quaid's masterful performance, although brief, was sufficient to make Joe live and breath.

[optom3]

Thanks optom!

You say:
Jacks reply is so full of pathos "I didn't want none of either kind" "but fuck all has worked the way I wanted.Nothin never come to my hand the right way"

.........

Optom and to all too:
this leads me to believe much more that Jack's boy is NOT his... but he accepts him!!

What do you think?

Hugs! That is what makes it much more damn real twice or more for me!!

I do not get any feeling that the son is not Jacks.He is clearly devoted to the child.He is the one who is going into the child school all the time,to sort out his problem.Lureen seems very unconcerned,about her son.If he was not Jacks,surely she would be more concerned,than him.
I read it that he did not want kids because it would be more tying.He certainly has sex with Lureen early on.After that seems to stop.Hence presumably only one child.

[brokeplex]

No, he doesn't, I guess partly because he doesn't figure very prominently in the story, except of course it's Aguirre who brings them down off the mountain early. I can't understand his attitudes (though I recognise there's plenty of people out there who share his attitudes), in that it's not something I can relate to, so I find it difficult to get inside his head, and therefore he doesn't seem as real to me, not in the same way Ennis and Jack are.

Jack would have his son every once in a while. I like MAdLori's "Human Interest/Two Crows Joy" fanfics though, where Alma Jnr ends up living with them on their ranch, where she has a good relationship with both of them and Jack treats her as his own daughter, not just Ennis's daughter.

if Jack left his wife and son to move up with Ennis to WY, I doubt that Lureen would have allowed Jack much access to Bobby. and the same for Alma and the two girls.

one of the prices they would have paid for living together would have been a severing of most of their family ties.

[brokeplex]

Maybe He's the incarnation of intolerance,lack of respect and a very distorted way of seeing what a man must be.For me,he could be more a symbolism.There's another fanfic where both of them spend Christmas time with Bobby,whom they considered as "their boy",since Ennis always wanted to have one.And they're like a real family during these days.It's very touching.

although Aguirre was not happy about what he saw of Jack's and Ennis's sexual activities, he was much more concerned about making a profit from the sheep. his anger stemmed from the poor job the boys did that summer in taking care of his investment. I don't think that one can understand Aguirre without first and foremost seeing him as a businessman in need of a return on his investment.

[brokeplex]

Thanks bliss, thanks optom, thanks myprivatejack!!!

Ennis always wanted a boy ?

Any proof of that wanting?

Hugs! Or is that because Ennis seems very damn real to us and we imagine him wanting a male child, since he has girls only with Alma... as his children ?? !!

it is mentioned in the SS

[brokeplex]

I do not get any feeling that the son is not Jacks.He is clearly devoted to the child.He is the one who is going into the child school all the time,to sort out his problem.Lureen seems very unconcerned,about her son.If he was not Jacks,surely she would be more concerned,than him.
I read it that he did not want kids because it would be more tying.He certainly has sex with Lureen early on.After that seems to stop.Hence presumably only one child.

there is an entire thread on this web site devoted to the fact that the timeline established in the film concerning Lureen's pregnancy with Bobby is such that Bobby can not be Jack's child. I remain convinced that Bobby is not Jack's child.

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

You say:
one of the prices they would have paid for living together would have been a severing of most of their family ties 

.........

Brokeplex:

may I say but Alma lets Ennis see his girls (his children) ??



.......

Hugs!

[Artiste]

Thanks optom!

You say about Jack and his child (Bobby) :
He certainly has sex with Lureen early on.After that seems to stop.Hence presumably only one child. 
.........

Optom, I think like brokeplex said that is NOT Jack's child!  But since Jack is a decent person and amiable, he cares for that child as a father would.

Au revoir,
hugs!

[brokeplex]

Thanks brokeplex!

You say:
one of the prices they would have paid for living together would have been a severing of most of their family ties 

.........

Brokeplex:

may I say but Alma lets Ennis see his girls (his children) ??



.......

Hugs!

if Ennis had moved in with Jack, I think that Alma might have caused Ennis no end of trouble in his relationships with his daughters.

[brokeplex]

Thanks optom!

You say about Jack and his child (Bobby) :
He certainly has sex with Lureen early on.After that seems to stop.Hence presumably only one child. 
.........

Optom, I think like brokeplex said that is NOT Jack's child!  But since Jack is a decent person and amiable, he cares for that child as a father would.Au revoir,
hugs!

very well said Artiste! 

[BlissC]

there is an entire thread on this web site devoted to the fact that the timeline established in the film concerning Lureen's pregnancy with Bobby is such that Bobby can not be Jack's child. I remain convinced that Bobby is not Jack's child.

That's interesting - I'll have to have a look at that. I have to admit I've never really paid that much attention to the timing of Bobby's birth.

[Artiste]

Thanks brokeplex!

Do you think that Ennis and Jack, living together, would adopt a child??

To all of you too, please answer.

Au revoir,
hugs!

[brokeplex]

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,16269.30.html

Bliss C , here is a link to the forum where we discussed this issue.

'Plex

[brokeplex]

That's interesting - I'll have to have a look at that. I have to admit I've never really paid that much attention to the timing of Bobby's birth.

http://bettermost.net/forum/index.php/topic,16487.0.html

here is another link to different previous discussion about whether Bobby was Jack's child.

[BlissC]

Thanks.

[Artiste]

Thanks

So Alma would NOT at all let Ennis see his daughters if Ennis (her former husband) would have moved in with Jack?

You all think that?

Hugs!

[optom3]

Thanks

So Alma would NOT at all let Ennis see his daughters if Ennis (her former husband) would have moved in with Jack?

You all think that?

Hugs!

I think she would have made it very difficult for Ennis to see his daughters.However,they could have made up their own minds when they were older.In the S.S he does not see them "for a long time" after the thanksgiving dinner, and Jack Nasty scene.It says "figuring they would look him upwhen they got the sense and years to move out from Alma"
He is the one who decides not to see them.So could be it would not have bothered him, had Alma tried to stop hin seeing them.
This was relatively early on in ack and Ennis affair,because the story continues with,"years on years they worked their way through the high meadows---------- but never returning to Brokeback"
So I  suspect the girls were never that much of a problem.It was Ennis fears of living as a couple.

[Artiste]

Thanks optom!

Ennis and Jack never returned to Brokeback?

Why?

It seems like Brokeback in the film?

Hugs!

[optom3]

Thanks optom!

Ennis and Jack never returned to Brokeback?

Why?

It seems like Brokeback in the film?

Hugs!

My take is that Brokeback was seen as perfect by both of them.They had no ties,it was pefect.It would have been difficult to recapture that same spirit again.I think there was an unspoken agreement to keep it like that.A perfect memory,unsulied by wives,age etc.I had a pefect place too and we never went back.We could not bear it not being that perfect again.It was better left as a memory.Where nothing could change it.
Just curious,do you have a perfect place.You don't need to tell.I just hope you do.
Everyone should have one perfect moment,to keep them warm and smiling when things get tough.

[Monika]

I think AP kept them away from Brokback because Brokeback is supposed to be something unreachable. Brokeback is where they both want to go back to but never can, and I guess not letting them go back there, even physically  is the authors way of highlightning that fact.

[Artiste]

Thanks byffymon, thanks optom!!

To me, if they would have returned to Brokeback Mountain, I think that Ennis would have lived forever after with Jack!  Maybe... in time?

What do you think??

Au revoir,
hugs!

[Mandy21]

My take is that Brokeback was seen as perfect by both of them.They had no ties,it was pefect.It would have been difficult to recapture that same spirit again.I think there was an unspoken agreement to keep it like that.A perfect memory,unsulied by wives,age etc.I had a pefect place too and we never went back.We could not bear it not being that perfect again.It was better left as a memory.Where nothing could change it.
Just curious,do you have a perfect place.You don't need to tell.I just hope you do.
Everyone should have one perfect moment,to keep them warm and smiling when things get tough.

Fiona, it's beautiful and interesting that you would say these words.  I had the question posed to me recently about favorite moments with people, and I spent a huge amount of time thinking of every single person I ever loved and my most favorite moment with them.  I could come up with all of them except for my two greatest male loves in my life, Bobby, whom I've loved from first moment and every moment since, for the last 12 years, and Michael, my Irish ex-fiance, whom I've known for the last 6.  When I started asking myself about my favorite moments with those two men, I came up with several thousand about Bobby, and a couple thousand about Michael.

My favorite moments with people are so magical, I've been so blessed.

If I was forced to pick one moment in my entire lifetime that was perfect, it would be the moment I was standing on a cliff in Topanga Canyon, California, and Bobby was standing behind me.  It was most definitely quite a drop down, would have been the death of me, and I'm terrified of heights, and yet I let this married man that I love stand right behind me, with the opportunity to rid himself of me.  But of course, what he did instead, was wrap his arms around me, and hold me safe and still.

That was many years ago, and many years we've loved since.

If I said the word, he'd be mine.

Just haven't said the word.

But I do know, forever and always, that he will hold me safe and still.

[optom3]

Fiona, it's beautiful and interesting that you would say these words.  I had the question posed to me recently about favorite moments with people, and I spent a huge amount of time thinking of every single person I ever loved and my most favorite moment with them.  I could come up with all of them except for my two greatest male loves in my life, Bobby, whom I've loved from first moment and every moment since, for the last 12 years, and Michael, my Irish ex-fiance, whom I've known for the last 6.  When I started asking myself about my favorite moments with those two men, I came up with several thousand about Bobby, and a couple thousand about Michael.

My favorite moments with people are so magical, I've been so blessed.

If I was forced to pick one moment in my entire lifetime that was perfect, it would be the moment I was standing on a cliff in Topanga Canyon, California, and Bobby was standing behind me.  It was most definitely quite a drop down, would have been the death of me, and I'm terrified of heights, and yet I let this married man that I love stand right behind me, with the opportunity to rid himself of me.  But of course, what he did instead, was wrap his arms around me, and hold me safe and still.

That was many years ago, and many years we've loved since.

If I said the word, he'd be mine.

Just haven't said the word.

But I do know, forever and always, that he will hold me safe and still.

Your magic moment sounds so like mine.I never had the courage though to say the one word.Someting I regret to this day.It seemed the right thing to do at the time.Now I am just full of regrets.I guess that is why BBM got to me so badly,i just felt like watching Ennis I was watching myself.No happy ending for him or me.

[Mandy21]

Now, don't be daft, Fiona.  Sounds to me like you are a brilliant and fascinating woman, and you've brought three other very interesting souls into this world, plus you have a husband, plus you've taken a chance moving to our country when you could have stayed in the U.K., safe and sound.

I'm 42, and I come home every day to a houseplant, and that's all.

If I were you, I would consider myself blessed for the things you have, all the people in your life who love you.  "No happy ending" -- what a silly thought for a woman like you to feel.

What do you plan on doing tomorrow to celebrate Heath's birthday?  I plan on watching BBM for the 50th time, and "A Knight's Tale", and perhaps "Four Feathers".  Just to celebrate his life, and remember what could have been...

Thanks again for expressing your thoughts; they really touched me.

[Artiste]

Merci Mandy!

Everyone takes their turn to be sad!!

Optom is a wonderful person as you know Mandy!

Your encouragement is wonderful!!

We all take turn to think how sad Ennis must be at the end of the BM movie!!

That is one reason that I would like a BM II where such sadness can be replaced somehow with joys!!

At times, Ennis and Jack, Alma and Lureen, are too real-like to us!! Everyone does their lives as we can and as we please when it's possible!! Better to remember the song: Qu'est-ce sera, sera; whatever will be, will be and somehow get back to being HAPPY again... and HAPPIER and HAPPIER!!

Take care Mandy, optom, and you all too,
au revoir,
hugs!!  Many and optom, ever thought of getting a pet, a dog, a cat or a fish?? Dog and fish helps mother and I... be happier!! Everyday!! Or join Optimist club, do they still exists??

[Artiste]

Or join a laughing club your way?

Or create one?

Hugs!!

[Mandy21]

Merci Mandy!

Everyone takes their turn to be sad!!

Optom is a wonderful person as you know Mandy!

Your encouragement is wonderful!!

We all take turn to think how sad Ennis must be at the end of the BM movie!!

That is one reason that I would like a BM II where such sadness can be replaced somehow with joys!!

At times, Ennis and Jack, Alma and Lureen, are too real-like to us!! Everyone does their lives as we can and as we please when it's possible!! Better to remember the song: Qu'est-ce sera, sera; whatever will be, will be and somehow get back to being HAPPY again... and HAPPIER and HAPPIER!!

Take care Mandy, optom, and you all too,
au revoir,
hugs!!  Many and optom, ever thought of getting a pet, a dog, a cat or a fish?? Dog and fish helps mother and I... be happier!! Everyday!! Or join Optimist club, do they still exists??

Thanks, Artiste.  You've expressed before on another post how important happiness, laughing, smiling is to you, and I appreciate that.  I've got plenty of things in my life that make me happy -- a dear mother, good friends, a couple of boyfriends who keep me entertained, a new job I'm starting next Tuesday after not having worked for 2-1/2 years, movies of Heath.  I had a betta (sp?) fish years ago, killed it by overfeeding it.  Recently I cat-sit for my oldest girlfriend Angie (whose cousin was/is Rock Hudson whom I met and supped with as a young girl), Sammy was 19 years old, she gave him to me cause she was scared of her two young daughters seeing a dead/dying thing for the first time, and she knew I could handle that, having been through seeing death myself, animals and people, so many times.  I kept him with me for 3 weeks and 2 days, but he had been an outdoor cat all his life, and my back yard is not fully fenced, so I couldn't let him run free, and so I gave him back to my girlfriend.  I think running free is just about the most important thing in life, so it devastated me to hear his longing howls every time he looked out one of my windows.  It was the right thing to do for all of us, especially him.

I enjoy your flower pictures.  Here in Missouri, the jonquils have just started blooming...

[Artiste]

Merci Mandy!

Great posts!!

...
Snow is still here where 2 inches did fall two days ago, and some jonquills heads are strarting to come out where flakes melted close to the house, so Spring wants to spring into our lives again!!

Any laughing club your way?

BM movie are so close to us, that we need to laugh at times to balance that!! Right?

Keep care,
hugs!

[BlissC]

Your magic moment sounds so like mine.I never had the courage though to say the one word.Someting I regret to this day.It seemed the right thing to do at the time.Now I am just full of regrets.I guess that is why BBM got to me so badly,i just felt like watching Ennis I was watching myself.No happy ending for him or me.

I think we all have regrets. I know I have a couple of huge ones. There's always the "what if?", how things might have turned out differently if I'd done some things a different way, or said things I left unsaid. One of the important things that Brokeback's taught me is that it's not too late to make those changes though, and not end up being Ennis. It might not always be easy, but we have the power to change the ending.

Being sad about your regrets and mistakes you made along the way is fine, but don't let them rule you. The past's the past, and however much we want to, we can't change that, but we can change the future.


...and Artiste! Such beautiful flowers!  Daffodils and freesia - the two most beutiful flowers on this earth!

[Artiste]

  Merci Bliss !![ 

You seen cultivars??

[optom3]

Thanks mandy21 and artiste, You are so kind.I am just having a bad couple of days with oldest son.Every time I get my hopes up that the next batch of meds. is working,they just get dashed again.It is sometimes very hard to pick up the pieces and get going again.Particularly when all his anger is directed against me.
I have 3 dogs and 2 cats so I think I am O.K on the pet front!!!!! Long story but I gave up such a lot for my oldest,it makes it doubly hard when he is so cruel to me.It was just very bad this weekend and it is taking me longer than usual to get my equilibrium back.
But I will get back on top again.I always do because I have to.
Your kind wishes really do help.Little words on a screen that make such a difference.Flowers that brighten up the day.So a big thankyou to you both!!!!!!

[Artiste]

Merci beaucoup optom!

May you have better and better times and all the joys you desire too !!
Laughing helps? When I see that Ennis, Jack, others, are so damn real, I try to laugh by seeing happy movies like Everybody Loves Raymond, which I see three times daily!! And I laugh loudly!

Tried that? May I suggest?

Keep care,
hugs! Or play a musical intrument like mine??

[Mandy21]

Hello, artiste and fiona, you're both right that this board is a very important source of support for us when we're feeling a bit 'off'.  Funny, artiste, that you should mention "Everybody Loves Raymond."  Best flight I ever had in my life was coming back from Belfast, through Heathrow (eek!), and then on the second leg of the journey, I was in a triple 7, and watched 7 hours of nonstop "ELR".  Probably the most I've laughed in years, had never watched it on the telly when it was on cause I don't have cable.

Fiona, you do know, of course, that it takes TIME for a person to adjust to medicines like the ones your son is probably on.  I'm sorry that he seems to be taking this transition time out on you, specifically.  I've always believed and observed that mothers are the strongest and bravest creatures on this planet.  You'll get through this.  Go for a walk, listen to some of your favorite music, enjoy the beauty of the day, take time for yourself.

Your BetterMost buddies care.   

[optom3]

Hello, artiste and fiona, you're both right that this board is a very important source of support for us when we're feeling a bit 'off'.  Funny, artiste, that you should mention "Everybody Loves Raymond."  Best flight I ever had in my life was coming back from Belfast, through Heathrow (eek!), and then on the second leg of the journey, I was in a triple 7, and watched 7 hours of nonstop "ELR".  Probably the most I've laughed in years, had never watched it on the telly when it was on cause I don't have cable.

Fiona, you do know, of course, that it takes TIME for a person to adjust to medicines like the ones your son is probably on.  I'm sorry that he seems to be taking this transition time out on you, specifically.  I've always believed and observed that mothers are the strongest and bravest creatures on this planet.  You'll get through this.  Go for a walk, listen to some of your favorite music, enjoy the beauty of the day, take time for yourself.

Your BetterMost buddies care.   

I too think its funny you should mention ELR it is one of the few moderate shows that makes my son laugh.He will watch repeats of repeats.Must get round to watching myself.I have written a poem for my son about him,which I hope he takes the time to really read.If not now at some time in the comming days.
In the meantime I take solace from such kind words here,also watching my daughter splash round in the pool with her friend,whilemy other son is off for a lovely day at the beach with one of his friends.
I try not to regret too much and most of the time I do O.K. Needless to say when my son is bad,it tends to reopen wounds, a bit like BBM does.However got my striped shirt for tomorrow and bar of English chocolate,all set for back to back Heath.A little BBM followed by a lighthearted romp through,Casanova and knights tale.Even treaty myself to a really nice bottle of Chablis,which is chilling as I write.
My son,troubled one is leaving tomorow early for a wrestling tournament,so I will have some peace.

[BlissC]

Hugs! I hope you have a lovely peaceful and relaxing day, and enjoy the wine and the chocolate! 

[optom3]

Hugs! I hope you have a lovely peaceful and relaxing day, and enjoy the wine and the chocolate! 

I sure will,I am drooling just thinking about it.Every time I open the fridge the wine and chocolate bar are there winking at me!!!!! But I am being amazingly controlled and saving it for tomorrow.It is a great big block of Cadburys fruit and nut, yummy, and very appropriate as I am a complete nutcase!!!!!!
Wine, chocolate and Heath,what more could a girl want!!!!!

[BlissC]

Wine, chocolate and Heath,what more could a girl want!!!!!

Yep, when you put it like that it sounds damned near perfect! 

[Artiste]

Sorry optom, I think that chocolate is making MAYBE loose your weight too much, may I suggest !! I think that I have heard or seen that lately... for your case. I think that that is my case too, since I love making hot chocolate at times and see my lost... as I will not say as I rush at times to la toilette !!... too often!! Which concerns mother about moi !! So, I may have found one thing that I need to change!! And eat a banana instead !! For now, oranges and grapefruit are helping me daily clean out grease and system!! (Sorry for the language!!) Every mornings, I make my big flakes oatmeal and add une banane to it; plus lately some fresh strawberries!! So eat some strawberries ?? (And don't dip them in chocolate, ha ! ha!)

Am still looking for my notes to what I heard !!

Have a wonderful happy day !!