ennis and alma jr.... heartache, and lessons learned

[forsythia12]

i watched bbm again last night, and i stopped it just after ennis and cassie took alma jr. out for  ....ummm... 'lunch?" ..or whatever, and ennis was driving jr. back home.  i thought about this for a while, and some questions came to mind.  when a.jr. was waiting for ennis to pick her up, she looked excited to see her dad.. until she noticed cassie.  so here's my questions:

-was a.jr. serious about her mom and monroe being 'awfully strict' on her with the new baby coming, or did she just really want to live with ennis to keep an eye on him?  was she going to ask him this in the first place, or was it because she saw he had a new woman in his life?

-what do you think was going on with a.jr. when she saw cassie?  jealousy about someone taking her daddy away?

-what do you think she was thinking when she was sitting there talking with cassie?

there are a couple things too about this scene that bother me.  i wish ennis had warned or even asked a.jr. if it was okay to meet cassie at that point.  i'm not sure just surprizing her was a good idea.  i mean, it didn't look like that visit went very well, and looked like he danced with cassie, or drank beer the whole time.  maybe i'm way off, but it's just the feeling i had last night watching that scene.  i felt bad for a.jr....

-do you think she and jenny would've been happy for ennis if he did marry cassie?  they seemed to except monroe just fine.


also, the other part that makes me think, is how sweet ennis was to aks a.jr. twice if she was okay.  she first replied 'yes', and then he said 'are you sure?" and how many women to you know say 'everything is just FINE' when everything is not fine?  lol.  i know i do it, and it's very rare that a man will keep probing to find out more.  ..so i always liked that he asked her twice.
also, the part that tears me up is how much i think he wanted her to live with him, but 'just wasn't set up for that' and he wouldn't be around very much due to work.  i'm left thinking about how many things ennis wanted to do for those he loved, but just couldn't.    i think he felt like he was always letting people down.  everyone wanted something from him, and he just couldn't give.  i think he tried, but sadly, didn't deliver, and that makes me very sad for him too. i think he felt caught between a rock and a hard place his whole life...trying to do what's right, and ending up letting people down.  i'll bet he felt like he failed everyone he loved....and that's what i got out of the last scene with a.jr.'s wedding announcement....he didn't want to fail anyone anymore.  he was willing to give his time, energy, devotion, attention, commitment, and love, despite the consequences that might seem trivial to him now...(ie work)

[Katie77]

-was a.jr. serious about her mom and monroe being 'awfully strict' on her with the new baby coming, or did she just really want to live with ennis to keep an eye on him?  was she going to ask him this in the first place, or was it because she saw he had a new woman in his life?

-what do you think was going on with a.jr. when she saw cassie?  jealousy about someone taking her daddy away?

-what do you think she was thinking when she was sitting there talking with cassie?

I think Alma Jnr was maybe seeing just how serious the relationship with Ennis and Cassie was. By asking if she could come and live with him, she might get some idea of whether Cassie was in fact going to go and live with Ennis. Or, she may have been able to get an idea of whether Ennis was lonely and wanted some company, either her or Cassie.

I think the reaction of Alma Jnr when she saw Cassie, was typical of a child of separated parents.....she was expecting to have some time alone with her dad, and once she saw Cassie, she knew that the get together was probably more about Cassie and Ennis having a date, than about Ennis having a date with her. She was probably used to having Ennis one on one, and would have been jealous of anyone encumbering on that relationship.

I think she was just being polite to Cassie, and her answer.."you're good enough, I suppose" was her way of not making a big deal about the relationship, and not offering any encouragement towards it.

The girls had grown up knowing Munro, so they would have accepted him into their lives easier than they would accepting a stranger.

I dont agree, that Ennis did want Alma Jnr to live with him. He had not set himeslf up to cater to, or accomodate the needs of having a teenage girl living with him, daughter or not....I dont think it had entered his mind that the girls would ever live with him, permanently. Not that he didn't love them, but he probably thought, being girls, they were probably better off with their mother anyway, and he barely earned enough to look after himself, and knew that the lifestyle Munro was now giving them, was much better than he could ever offer them.

Ennis worked to survive, and pay the child support....he saw that as his duty and committment to the girls. He had his designated contact weekends with them, and just seemed to fit it all into the life he was living. I dont think he was a "hands on" type of father, but I dont doubt he loved his girls, and wanted what was best for them, and he stuck around, so he would still feature in their lives.

When Alma Jnr first told Ennis about her wedding, and asked him to attend, he may have not placed a lot of importance on it, he seemed to downplay it a bit, by talking about what he would be needed to do at work at that time, and then when he asked her if Kurt loved her, and she said "Yes, he loves me daddy", he seemed to realize just how important all this was to his daughter, and that it was something she wanted him to share with her...when he turned his head away in thought, it was like he was thinking "how lucky you are to be so confident and sure of someone's love" and maybe wished he had been as confident and been able to be so open about the love he and Jack had shared.....and I also feel that he thought "I know how it feels to have loved like that too"....That then, made this wedding very precious and important, and he knew then he wanted and needed to be there, no matter what.

I dont know if he had gone through his life "letting down" people, but more so, "disappointing" them. Alma, Cassie and Jack, all wanted a future with him, but he just couldn't seem to make any of those futures work out, the way THEY all wanted them to. It was like he went through life trying to do the best he could, but he ended up hurting them, or disappointing them with what little he was able to give to them.....

[optom3]

I think in divorce situations,thee is a tendency for teenagers to play one parent off against another.My oldest on does not even really get on with his blood father.who ignored hos existance for years.When things get rough here he sometimes says right I want to go live with him then.So there could be some of that sort of behavior going on.
I do think that there wa a really close bond between Ennis and ama junior,he calls her little darlin,in the ss, a term he also uses with Jack and his horses.It is the only term of endearment used by him in the ss.
There always tends to be a close bond betwen Fathers and daughters and I wonder if Proulx deliberately gave Ennis daughters not sons.It allows Ennis some real chance to express safe affection and love with less chance of being judged,even if his secret was known.

The wedding gives Ennis a chance to make ammends, and also lets us think that he has asked about love because he has finally come to the realisation that love is so important.It becomes full circle,his love lost, versus his daughters found.A cause for celebration and hope for the next generation.
When we love our children ,we want so badly for them to have what we may not have had.

I think Ennis may have felt he had failed many people in his life,but when all is  said and done,that was force of circumstance and his own childhood experience.I remember at one point wanting to scream at him,its not your fault.

The only ray of hope in the whole film ,is that with Alma junior we see some hope of the cycle of hurt and lost chances maybe turn round.
In real life ofen this does not happen,history just carries on repeating.
I fid it very interesting that Jacks son has some problems and often wonder how he will turn out.

I do not think Alma junior wa jealous,of Cassie I think it was more concen for her fathers happiness,she says  "maybe daddys not the marrying kind". So has she guesed,who knows.She is a woman and daughter so may have some not fully understood but,niggling intuition about her father,
That however is a whole new topic.

[forsythia12]

I think the reaction of Alma Jnr when she saw Cassie, was typical of a child of separated parents.....she was expecting to have some time alone with her dad, and once she saw Cassie, she knew that the get together was probably more about Cassie and Ennis having a date, than about Ennis having a date with her. She was probably used to having Ennis one on one, and would have been jealous of anyone encumbering on that relationship.


The girls had grown up knowing Munro, so they would have accepted him into their lives easier than they would accepting a stranger.

I dont agree, that Ennis did want Alma Jnr to live with him. He had not set himeslf up to cater to, or accomodate the needs of having a teenage girl living with him, daughter or not....I dont think it had entered his mind that the girls would ever live with him, permanently. Not that he didn't love them, but he probably thought, being girls, they were probably better off with their mother anyway, and he barely earned enough to look after himself, and knew that the lifestyle Munro was now giving them, was much better than he could ever offer them.

Ennis worked to survive, and pay the child support....he saw that as his duty and committment to the girls. He had his designated contact weekends with them, and just seemed to fit it all into the life he was living. I dont think he was a "hands on" type of father, but I dont doubt he loved his girls, and wanted what was best for them, and he stuck around, so he would still feature in their lives.


I dont know if he had gone through his life "letting down" people, but more so, "disappointing" them. Alma, Cassie and Jack, all wanted a future with him, but he just couldn't seem to make any of those futures work out, the way THEY all wanted them to. It was like he went through life trying to do the best he could, but he ended up hurting them, or disappointing them with what little he was able to give to them.....

thank you sue and fiona.  great responses.  yes, sue, i think you're right here about the fact ennis may never have really wanted a.jr. to live with him. and yes, i fully agree that he believed that alma and monroe gave the kids a better life than he could have. you bring up some good points.  he just looked like he didn't want to let her down and that whole conversation made me very sad.  it's like everyone asked of him what he just couldn't do.  i don't think he should've let her live there, i was just sad about how much i think he wanted to please her....or wish that he could've.
when my mom and stepdad split up, he started seeing someone new about 3yrs later, when i was 15, and our 'dates' and time together turned into time with his new woman.  i remember how it felt.  i wanted him to  be happy, but it was sad not having him to myself anymore, or sharing our time together with someone else. 
and yes, i agree it was things that THEY wanted from him, and he couldn't deliver, and therefore, disappointed them.  i don't think it was his fault, i just think he may have felt that way.

[Lynne]

Hi all.

I found this thread when I was searching for a place to put a few observations I had about Alma Jr and her father and her wedding to Kurt after watching BBM this past weekend.  It never ceases to amaze me that 2+ years into it I have new thoughts...things I haven't put together in quite the same way before...

This time around I noticed a parallel between Ennis' conversation with Jack when he explains that they can't have Jack's dream of a sweet life and when he denies Alma, Jr. coming to live with him.  In both cases, Ennis glances at the loved one he's denying, shakes his head, and struggles to find the words.  Heath's performance at both spots - subtle, understated, and spot-on perfect.  (Edit:  I've thought of a third time Ennis denies Jack - when he comes up after the divorce - I'll need to watch the scene again to see if Ennis shakes his head in just the same way...).

And speaking of parallels (OT, I know) - it is also completely perfect the way Jack lies to Ennis three times.  In the scene where Jack says 'Me neither' - he looks at Ennis, then looks away.  This is exquisitely mirrored two more times by Jake during the 'Is it normal and all?' conversation and during last fishing trip when Jack tells Ennis about the 'ranch neighbor's wife.'  I have always felt that Jack is equivocating about it being 'normal' with him and Lureen, and I think Annie's text about them 'telling lies' supports that you need to drop 'wife' and you have the truth about Jack and his ranch neighbor, even before OMTwist tries to hurt Ennis with that nugget.  What amazing actors!

Back to Alma, Jr. though...This time I came away wondering why Alma, Jr. only asks her father to be at the wedding:   'I was hopin you'd be there.'

It suddenly occurred to me to wonder WHY she doesn't expressly ask her father to give away the bride?  We can infer it's a traditional wedding much like her parents had at the Methodist Church.  She's told us Monroe is catering the reception so we know what Monroe's role is.  I was left thinking that she does not want to push her father or make him uncomfortable and that in the years since the divorce she's learned to only ask for small things.  I think this may be further evidence that Alma, Jr. understands what went wrong with her parents' marriage and is sensitive to Ennis' fear of being seen or found out by those who would watch him, those 'on the pavement.'

No reins, indeed.